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Regulating Circumcision Options · View
PhareDuFour
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 1:50:25 PM

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Location: United Kingdom
In September the government of the Federal Republic of Germany attempted to impose a general ban on circumcision performed on anyone under the age of 18, stating that the personal rights of a child were being violated by their parents. This legislation was sparked off by foreign residents of Central Africa who were facing prison terms because they were forcing their daughters, nieces, etc. to undergo female castration of the clitoris. They argued that they should be allowed to do this, because male circumcision of the penis foreskin was allowed.

As a result the government tried to impose a ban preventing anyone to perform elective surgery on a minor's sexual organs. That in turn caused a huge "ruckass". Both Jewish and Muslim communities were more than upset, and felt their constitutional rights were being violated.

In the end, the German government caved in under the racist accusation, but ruled that Rabbis and Imans may no longer perform circumcision. It is now law that a circumcision must be performed by a licensed doctor, using anaesthesics. Parents must sign documents stating they were notified of the possible health risks involved in elective surgery.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Should parents be able to decide whether their children should have a circumcision or clitoralsectomy?

Does the government have a duty to protect children from their parent's religious beliefs until they are old enough to make their own decisions about elective surgery?


Si vos postulo me, sed non vis me, oportet me manere.
Sed si vis me, sed non vos postulo me, oportet me abire.
AbigailThornton
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 2:44:32 PM

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Location: The naughty little world inside my head, United Ki
Religious Freedom vs. Human Rights in a secular society. There's no winners here... but maybe we'll get to the stage where nobody wants to cut anything off.

Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 5:50:58 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,775
Bottom Line:

People will hoot and holler about child abuse and how there is absolutely no excuse for it and should not be condoned in any form, no matter what.

However, since it's predicated on some dogma a bunch of guys came up with thousands of years ago, well then, there you go. It should be allowed and is a fine line none of us should question.

Cudos guys. Way to evolve.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 6:13:35 PM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
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So long as it is performed by medical professionals, I believe the parents should have domain over this choice.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 6:17:45 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Rembacher
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 6:34:00 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
If not for the religious background, it would never be allowed. Yes, there are studies that show higher instances of diseases in uncircumcised men (and also studies showing that it's more about cleanliness than skin) but if I was going to have my child's toenails removed because that would avoid ingrown nails and other potential infections in the future, people would lock me up for child abuse, and no doctor would perform the procedure. So what makes the male sex organ less worthy of protection than toenails?
Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 7:22:57 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,775
It's not just about penises though. Having been circumcised, I still, thankfully, get my freak on. However, I doubt the same can be said, when a woman loses her clitoris. Call me crazy, but that just don't sound right. Many beliefs just don't sound right.

Murakami in 1Q84 touched on pedophilia/sexual child abuse. I recommended the book to a co-worker and noted that if she had any hesitancy about reading anything that touches on that subject, that she may not enjoy it or might not want to read it. She turned down the offer to read it. So, that causes a stir, and duly so, but disfigurement of a child's body, as long as there is prescription is okay?

The mind boggles.

elitfromnorth
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 7:37:30 PM

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To enlighten about female circumcision; it's not "just" the removal of the clitoris as stated above, but it also includes removal of the outer lips and sewing the vagina shut. Through this process they pretty much deprive the woman of any sexual satisfaction in the future as well as causing her massive pain during her period.

To me this is a no brainer. What if the kid doesn't want to follow the religion when they're of age? Thanks to their nutjob parents they are then ruined for life simply over religion. It's not right and if there is a God(which I believe) I doubt that mutilating your kids was part of his intetion when He/She created this world.

The downside is that if you ban it completely for anyone under 18 then you're gonna have a lot of people doing it in the dark, simiply because they're religious fucktard fanatics. You'll probably end up having lots of deaths due to infections and mutilations as well. But to me, it shouldn't be allowed unless there's a medical reason. If they want to follow the religion when older then let them choose to chop off their bits on their own accord, not their parents.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Poppet
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 8:29:36 PM

Rank: Sweetest Cricket

Joined: 10/5/2012
Posts: 5,259
Location: You Inspire Me, United States
Wow, this is an entire thread that’s all I can say first of all.

I am not sure why Jewish and Muslim or any other person/parent wants to circumcise their sons. Yes, I personally think they should but I’m not sure what the region has to do with it. I’m neither Jewish, nor Muslim nor am I a boy. So, it’s hard to know what the up roar is by the Muslims or Jewish. Though they have been doing this since the day of time so yes I can see why they’d be upset.

I do however agree that a doctor should be doing this, not a Rabbis or Imans should be doing this. That much agree with but I do think it’s up to the parents if they want their sons circumcised.

As for clitoralsectomy I heard that this is simply to disallow females to enjoy the pleasure of sex. I am not 100% sure if this is true or not however but if this is the reason why then no it should be illegal to do to females at all, at any age! A boy being circumcise has nothing to do with disallowing him to enjoy the pleasure of sex. Outside of the Muslim and Jewish which I've stated am not sure why they do it most parents do it for the cleanliness factor. I am curious as to why Jewish and Muslim’s do it now though. I’ll have to look it up, unless anyone here knows?


elitfromnorth wrote:
To enlighten about female circumcision; it's not "just" the removal of the clitoris as stated above, but it also includes removal of the outer lips and sewing the vagina shut. Through this process they pretty much deprive the woman of any sexual satisfaction in the future as well as causing her massive pain during her period.


I didn't know it was that extreme but knew it was for that reason. That’s bloody extreme and makes my stomach roll.. Oh gosh I kind of wish I didn’t read your post but in a way I am glad to know it. And thankful nothing like that has ever happen to me.

Buz
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 9:05:43 PM

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Look at the credibility of Germany. And I am not talking about their Nazi past. But just maybe it fits. They now want to ban circumcision but they just recently decided to attempt to outlaw bestiality. Yes, bestiality has been legal in Germany for sometime. They already are getting major protests to keep bestiality legal.

Now I am talking about their Nazi past. Do you think there might be some connection between Germans wanting to outlaw circumcision and the fact that it was practiced by a group of people they tried to exterminate from the earth? Just tossing that out there.

MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 9:08:05 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
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Quote:
There are three basic types of genital excision, although practices vary widely. In the first type, clitoridectomy, part or all of the clitoris is amputated, while in the second (often referred to as excision), both the clitoris and the labia minora are removed. Infibulation, the third type, is the most severe: After excision of the clitoris and the labia minora, the labia majora are cut or scraped away to create raw surfaces, which are held in contact until they heal, either by stitching the edges of the wound or by tying the legs together. As the wounds heal, scar tissue joins the labia and covers the urethra and most of the vaginal orifice, leaving an opening that may be as small as a matchstick for the passage of urine and menstrual blood.9

The overall proportion of women who have undergone each type of circumcision is not known, although clitoridectomy appears to be by far the most common procedure. It is estimated that about 15% of all circumcised women have been infibulated, although an estimated 80-90% of all circumcisions in Djibouti, Somalia and the Sudan are of this type.10


Link

No matter which type, this is a barbaric practice that should be outlawed. In my opinion, any father that would mutilate his female child in this fashion (or allow it to happen) ought to have his parental rights taken away, and he himself ought to be punished; preferably by having his own genitalia cut away with a rusty blade. I realize this practice is done because of long-standing tradition and tribal beliefs - that doesn't change the way I feel. Start cutting fathers' dicks off and you would end the practice in one generation.

As for male circumcision... I'm pretty much ambivalent. I was circumcised as a wee babe and I can't remember it. And I've never missed it. As far as I can tell, it hasn't affected my ability to fuck in any meaningful way. Since I never knew how it felt to even have a foreskin, my opinion may be worthless. I used to know a guy that was circumcised at around 19 or 20 years old, though. I don't remember why he had to have it done, but I remember him telling me about it. You always hear stories about how it deadens the sensation, makes the penis a lot less sensitive to stimulus. In his case, though, it had the opposite effect. Once he was able to use it again, it seems that the head had always been covered up by a layer of skin, and therefore was never directly involved in the act of sex. Now being uncovered, it was so much more sensitive that he actually suffered premature ejaculation until his mind and body got used to the millions of now-exposed nerve endings. Sex (especially oral sex) became so much more pleasing to him that he's more than happy to have had it done.

Your Mileage May Vary...

Buz
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 9:13:34 PM

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I concur that clitoral mutilation of female babies is insanely barbaric and should be stopped.

I too am circumcised and prefer it that way myself. The parents should retain the right to make that decision. Though I would recommend that they ask the surgeon to do it manually and not use the machine. Though the percentages are low, the machine has been known to malfunction and destroy or mutilate the baby's penis.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 9:37:21 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,300
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Omg, Buz, you are filled with disturbing facts in this thread! geek

My thoughts:

Female circumcision is cruel and barbaric, meant explicitly to 'control' women by denying them sexual pleasure and enforce chastity. Very few countries allow this practice these days, even in the third world.

Male circumcision - should be up to the parents, and performed by doctors. I don't even associate this with any kind of religious overtones. In North America, it's the norm.


tazznjazz
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 12:37:12 AM

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I may be wrong, but isn't male circumcision as a non-religious practice about cleanliness?

The practice on females is harmful and barbaric as described above!crybaby
Rembacher
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 5:07:04 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
tazznjazz wrote:
I may be wrong, but isn't male circumcision as a non-religious practice about cleanliness?

The practice on females is harmful and barbaric as described above!crybaby


If you told an adult male you were going to circumcise him "for cleanliness" I'm pretty sure he would find that painful, barbaric, and completely unnecessary too. So what makes it ok to do to a newborn who can't consent?
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:19:57 AM

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Joined: 10/4/2010
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Circumcision of boys should be left as a choice by parents. And it should be done before the kids knows what's going on. It's become the norm in the States for sure. When done correctly, which is 99.9% of the time, there are no side effects or loss of function or sensation or anything like that.

Comparing male circumcision to female "circumcision" is an apples to oranges debate. Most civilized nations, if not all, probably ban that practice. It's not circumcision, but brutal castration. A more accurate comparison would be clitoris removal and penis head removal. Female "circumcision" has nothing to do with health or even religion. It's sole purpose is another means of men to control women. A woman is less likely to enjoy sex, lose her virginity in premarital sex, or cheat on her eventual husband if sex has no factor of joy or pleasure for her.

Kids can be cruel. I remember in 4th or 5th grade going to the bathroom at school during recess. The boys' bathroom had one of those trough type urinals. There were 5 or 6 of us side by side, pissing. One kid walked up and started peeing, when the guy next to him shrieked. Pointed to the other kids penis and laughed and talked about his broken "thing". He was teased relentlessly, even the girls teased him. He was never the same kid after being known as "aardvark" until he finally moved away. Poor kid.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
JMM
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:29:30 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

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I don't agree with female circumcision at all. It is totally wrong but I do think that men should have an option to be circumsied and not just down to religious grounds, medical or parents either. It should be a chioce and it has to be done professional and not by back alley clinics
LadyX
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 9:14:33 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
lafayettemister wrote:

Comparing male circumcision to female "circumcision" is an apples to oranges debate.


That.

There are a few different arguments here, all getting thrown into the same thread. One is female circumcision, which is described is barbaric and torturous, of course. One is the issue of who is performing male circumcisions, and I agree that it should only be medical professionals. It's a shame that so many aren't, and based on the religious and cultural traditions behind it, it's practically impossible to stop it from happening outside the sterile confines of a doctor's office or hospital.

Then there's the issue of male circumcision at infancy, even when in the hands of a surgeon. I recognize the points made, that it's largely a holdover from religious tradition, and when viewed in a vacuum, seems primitive and cruel to perform on infants (though local anesthesia precludes them from feeling much in the way of pain), but personally, I'm not swayed. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I live, and given my religious affiliation (or lack thereof) it's far more of a cultural trend than a religious one. Where I live, and where my child will grow up, the overwhelming majority of children are cirumcised. Would I jump off a bridge if the majority did as well? No. But medically-performed infant cirumcision isn't jumping off of a bridge. In addition to the handful of medical advantages my child will enjoy (statistically speaking, at least), he also won't be 'different' in a way that, as pointed out, might otherwise be pointed out rather cruelly.

In the case of my child, it was the father of my child who felt the strongest about this, and was ultimately his call, as I didn't feel all that strongly one way or the other. But having read up on it since, I'm reasonably certain that we didn't mangle our child. :)
sprite
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 9:20:28 AM

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just out of curiousity, do any of you guys who were circumsized remember the act? is it an issue for you? do you resent it or wish you weren't circumsized? if you were given the option now, would you choose to do it or or not? are you aware of the extra work involved in keeping yourself clean if not circumsized and would you honestly be diligent about doing it every day, no matter what else was going on? what if you were out in the field, say for example, in the army out in Afghanistan and had to keep that up in the middle of adverse conditions? just something to think about :)

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 9:29:41 AM

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sprite wrote:
just out of curiousity, do any of you guys who were circumsized remember the act? is it an issue for you? do you resent it or wish you weren't circumsized? if you were given the option now, would you choose to do it or or not? are you aware of the extra work involved in keeping yourself clean if not circumsized and would you honestly be diligent about doing it every day, no matter what else was going on? what if you were out in the field, say for example, in the army out in Afghanistan and had to keep that up in the middle of adverse conditions? just something to think about :)


You make a good point. In biblical times, keeping the area clean was probably much more difficult than it is now. The "religious" origin of this could very well be a matter of cleanliness. A soldier in Afghanistan today wouldn't be able to give the same cleaning routine as he does at home.

I think most males born (in the U.S., at least) are circumcised. It was originally a religious thing but now it's mostly cultural. I don't really by into the whole religious whack jobs are the only ones getting their kids snipped. Nor do I believe it's some form of mutilation.

No, I certainly don't remember being circumcised. I'm glad it was done and i don't regret it at all. If I weren't clipped, in today's society I'd opt to have it done. Just look at the multitude of Lush threads asking women which they prefer. Most women in the U.S., where I get laid, prefer a circumcised dick.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
elitfromnorth
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 10:11:13 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

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Buz wrote:
Look at the credibility of Germany. And I am not talking about their Nazi past. But just maybe it fits. They now want to ban circumcision but they just recently decided to attempt to outlaw bestiality. Yes, bestiality has been legal in Germany for sometime. They already are getting major protests to keep bestiality legal.

Now I am talking about their Nazi past. Do you think there might be some connection between Germans wanting to outlaw circumcision and the fact that it was practiced by a group of people they tried to exterminate from the earth? Just tossing that out there.


Many European countries still allow beastialtiy. I know Netherland and Denmark for a fact allows it(Denmark with argument that as long as it doesn't hurt the animal it's ok), but I think that discussion should be left due to the rules here on the site.

As for the Nazi thing, you're grasping at straws so badly that it's ludicrous. Europe has pretty much moved away from anti-semmitism and you will only find remnants of it in right wing parties(parties that Germany actually wants to ban). If there are anyone that is concious about not being anti-semmetic then it's Germany. They, or at least the governing bodies, are terrified of even being remotely connected to the Nazis. Swasticas are banned unless it's for educational use, so WWII comp games need a special version for Germany where all the Swasticas have been removed.

There's also a great deal of secularisation going on in Europe. For instance France has banned the use of religious symbols for students and teachers at public schools. This includes the hijab and a crucifix around your neck.

If this were to target a religious group then it's most definetely the Muslims. There's a growing anti-Jihadistic movement in Europe, and sadly it doesn't just stick with the extreme Muslims, it also targets moderates.

Personally I think this was an attempt to ban female circumcition on a whole and had to include male circumcision just to avoid being discriminatory.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
WellMadeMale
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 5:17:43 PM

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sprite wrote:
just out of curiousity, do any of you guys who were circumsized remember the act? is it an issue for you? do you resent it or wish you weren't circumsized? if you were given the option now, would you choose to do it or or not? are you aware of the extra work involved in keeping yourself clean if not circumsized and would you honestly be diligent about doing it every day, no matter what else was going on? what if you were out in the field, say for example, in the army out in Afghanistan and had to keep that up in the middle of adverse conditions? just something to think about :)


No I don't remember being circumcised nor my cesarean birth. My earliest memory is of having a cock pecking at my face the Easter of my 2nd year on this planet. I'm told my father got ahold of that bastard and made a nice soup out of him for dinner later that week. It was a gift from my great Aunt.

Getchur mind outta the gutter.



If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
foxjack
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 6:03:26 PM

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I'm happy to be circumcised; however from my understanding female circumcision is less that enjoyable (might need a correction on this as it’s been a while since I heard the statement). Now if it were actually harming people, I could see how it'd be an issue. But if anything it’s a benefit if you are a soldier and end up serving in Iraq or something like that, as you often don't get to have showers for days at a time.

In addition I find the cut area to be more sensitive, so that’s a bonus.

In the end I don’t think a ban (for males) is in order, it doesn’t actually hurt anyone (well, males at least, we need to get a female opinion in here for the opposite sex).
sprite
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:49:53 PM

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foxjack wrote:
I'm happy to be circumcised; however from my understanding female circumcision is less that enjoyable (might need a correction on this as it’s been a while since I heard the statement). Now if it were actually harming people, I could see how it'd be an issue. But if anything it’s a benefit if you are a soldier and end up serving in Iraq or something like that, as you often don't get to have showers for days at a time.

In addition I find the cut area to be more sensitive, so that’s a bonus.

In the end I don’t think a ban (for males) is in order, it doesn’t actually hurt anyone (well, males at least, we need to get a female opinion in here for the opposite sex).


as far as female circumcision goes, it's a barbaric practice akin to mutilation and completely destroys the sexual pleasure centers for girls. two different animals.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
foxjack
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:01:41 PM

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sprite wrote:


as far as female circumcision goes, it's a barbaric practice akin to mutilation and completely destroys the sexual pleasure centers for girls. two different animals.


That’s what I thought I heard, and thus it shouldn’t be allowed anywhere.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:14:07 PM

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sprite wrote:
just out of curiousity, do any of you guys who were circumsized remember the act? is it an issue for you? do you resent it or wish you weren't circumsized? if you were given the option now, would you choose to do it or or not? are you aware of the extra work involved in keeping yourself clean if not circumsized and would you honestly be diligent about doing it every day, no matter what else was going on? what if you were out in the field, say for example, in the army out in Afghanistan and had to keep that up in the middle of adverse conditions? just something to think about :)


No.
No.
No.
If I could go through it right now? Probably not. I'm quite the pussy when it comes to feeling pain. I've had enough necessary surgeries in my life to know that I don't want to go through an unnecessary one. Especially when it involves willfully inflicting pain on my dick. No, not today, no thank you, have a nice day. Besides, if I've had a foreskin this long, I obviously know how to care for it and keep it clean. That dude that had his junk cut into two halves and tattooed up like a hydra? Something wrong with that boy. Waaaay past the "Mommy didn't love me" level.

heroes821
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:16:10 PM

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Location: Denver
sprite wrote:
just out of curiousity, do any of you guys who were circumsized remember the act? is it an issue for you? do you resent it or wish you weren't circumsized? if you were given the option now, would you choose to do it or or not? are you aware of the extra work involved in keeping yourself clean if not circumsized and would you honestly be diligent about doing it every day, no matter what else was going on? what if you were out in the field, say for example, in the army out in Afghanistan and had to keep that up in the middle of adverse conditions? just something to think about :)


I do not remember it since I was a baby at the time.

Honestly I don't think I would want to not be circumcised. Its way less work to be cut, and honestly from a straight guys perspective I think it looks better.


"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain” -unknown
Buz
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:33:58 PM

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If any of my children are boys I do plan to have them circumcised. They will probably appreciate that they are and that they don't remember it. I will specify that the surgeon do it manually. NO MACHINES!

And wow Elit. I just asked a question. For one thing news documenteries in the USA make it sound like Nazism is a problem in Germany, Poland and other parts of eastern Europe with plenty of video footage of swastika waving fanatics to back it up. And truthfully I have seen them on my visits to Germany. It was rather distrurbing seeing young Germans walking around with swastika tattoos.

PhareDuFour
Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 5:39:15 PM

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Location: United Kingdom
Buz wrote:
Look at the credibility of Germany. And I am not talking about their Nazi past. But just maybe it fits. They now want to ban circumcision but they just recently decided to attempt to outlaw bestiality. Yes, bestiality has been legal in Germany for sometime. They already are getting major protests to keep bestiality legal.

Now I am talking about their Nazi past. Do you think there might be some connection between Germans wanting to outlaw circumcision and the fact that it was practiced by a group of people they tried to exterminate from the earth? Just tossing that out there.


Buz, bestiality has been what they call "sittenwidrig" for centuries. But they recently moved it out of the misdemeanor category into a criminal offense.

Incidently, Germany has been a social democracy since 1949, and the vast majority of Nazis are essentially dead. They have progress in the form of gun control, declaring the Nazi Party illegal, and abolishing the death penality, allowing and financing legal abortion, and allowing gay marriage. Hitler is turning over in his grave.

I am not aware that there is any advocation supporting bestiality.

As I mentioned above, the move to make circumcision illegal for anyone under 18 years of age has ZERO to do with the Nazis, or the past, and was solely motivated in the name of protecting children against their parents religious beliefs.

Si vos postulo me, sed non vis me, oportet me manere.
Sed si vis me, sed non vos postulo me, oportet me abire.
PhareDuFour
Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 5:44:40 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/23/2012
Posts: 57
Location: United Kingdom
Buz wrote:
I concur that clitoral mutilation of female babies is insanely barbaric and should be stopped.

I too am circumcised and prefer it that way myself. The parents should retain the right to make that decision. Though I would recommend that they ask the surgeon to do it manually and not use the machine. Though the percentages are low, the machine has been known to malfunction and destroy or mutilate the baby's penis.


Curious how you find clitoral removal is barbaric, but removal of the foreskin is acceptable. The point they were trying to make is that:

NO ONE asked you if you wanted it.
No is asking young girls if they want to have their clitorus removed either.
Just because it doesn't hurt you today, and you have grown up with it, don't you think you would like to have had the choice?
What if your parents had elected not to have you circumcised? Would you still be in favour of having one now? Or would you find it perhaps barbaric?

Si vos postulo me, sed non vis me, oportet me manere.
Sed si vis me, sed non vos postulo me, oportet me abire.
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