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Socialism an illusion or the real solution? Options · View
PhareDuFour
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 1:27:36 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/23/2012
Posts: 57
Location: United Kingdom
ByronLord wrote:

One important point is that the economic system suitable for one country may not be the best for another.


I am not certain if this is a non-sequetor. An economic system is a system. Wouldn't that a bit be like arguing, "Microsoft Windows is suitable for one country, but may not be suitable for another"? It's a system. If the system is applied correctly and it is a functioning model, it should operate within its perimetres well.

I do believe the point you are trying make, is not the system, but how politicians interpret the system and facilitate it. In that case it would be like comparing "Microsoft Windows works well on my computer, but the man over there uses Linux instead, and is happy about it."

Si vos postulo me, sed non vis me, oportet me manere.
Sed si vis me, sed non vos postulo me, oportet me abire.
Guest
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:22:58 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
An economic system is a system."
yep

Those with the best education and drive will earn the most, sure there are the statistical outliers to be sure. However, the vast majority that don't do drugs or alcohol or commit crimes do succeed. And as they earn more they are taxed more, the problem with socialism is that the earning class can never be taxed enough. Never.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:00:17 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
PhareDuFour wrote:


I am not certain if this is a non-sequetor. An economic system is a system. Wouldn't that a bit be like arguing, "Microsoft Windows is suitable for one country, but may not be suitable for another"? It's a system. If the system is applied correctly and it is a functioning model, it should operate within its perimetres well.

I do believe the point you are trying make, is not the system, but how politicians interpret the system and facilitate it. In that case it would be like comparing "Microsoft Windows works well on my computer, but the man over there uses Linux instead, and is happy about it."


I think you're a bit in the wrong here. When it comes to political systems what will be accepted and work is very often based on cultural history. An area with a culture that widely accepts the fact that you are the creator of your own wealth and happyness and that you should not rely on society to give you anything, thus being very individualistic, will have more problems accepting socialism than an area with a culture for always helping each other out.

In the case of the US socialism would have to be implented very very gradually and over a long period of time for it to be accepted, simply because the culture is very right winged compared to other countries that are more prone to going in the socialist direction.

And Buc; that's complete and utter bullocks, untrue and sounds like some propaganda that is spewed directly out of FOX News.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Guest
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 7:09:49 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
Education and Income, point one.

www .bls .gov/ emp/ep_chart_001.htm


A college educated person earns on average twice that of a dolt.

Fox news, omg, now that is too funny, one little channel and your in a bind.
lambdavi
Posted: Thursday, January 03, 2013 7:49:29 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 11/20/2012
Posts: 39
Location: Italy
elitfromnorth wrote:


I think you're a bit in the wrong here. When it comes to political systems what will be accepted and work is very often based on cultural history. An area with a culture that widely accepts the fact that you are the creator of your own wealth and happyness and that you should not rely on society to give you anything, thus being very individualistic, will have more problems accepting socialism than an area with a culture for always helping each other out.

In the case of the US socialism would have to be implented very very gradually and over a long period of time for it to be accepted, simply because the culture is very right winged compared to other countries that are more prone to going in the socialist direction.

And Buc; that's complete and utter bullocks, untrue and sounds like some propaganda that is spewed directly out of FOX News.


I would like to pitch in with my own two cents' worth, because I have "been there, done that" in quite a few "theres" and done quite a few "thats".

ByonLord is certainly well learned and has got things well focused; 1Ball, on the other hand, fits the stereotype so well described in that famous novel "The Ugly American"; may I suggest he NOT visit Europe while on holiday, or learn to keep his mouth shut, because his cultural and political "certainties" would make the locals quite upset - and I don't mean the French alone, either.

ElitfromNorth has, again, hit the nail on the head. True, as PhareduPhour claims, "a system is a system", but, just like you can't irrigate a square field with a system that goes around in circles (you would leave out the corners), you cannot "shock and awe" a foreign country and march your foreign troops in the cities and claim "Hark! Me brings Democracy!"... especially when that Country is one of the world's most ancient countries, and has been exporting culture quite successfully for the last 5000 years as a monarchy in its many guises.

I am sincerely surprised not many of you realized the "European Socialist States" quoted many times, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, are actually Constitutional Monarchies.
I am sadly surprised nobody has also noticed that none of these three (and I'll add the Netherlands, Belgium and Spain in this) actually never ever declared nor started a war in the last 100+ years of European history.
True, Spain did have a civil war, but it was a civil war... and it did lose a war in the 1890's, but that was started by the staunch defender of Democracy, the United States.

I would like you all to realize that whatever model works in one nation may well flunk bitterly in another nation for the simple reason of culture.
Why is Norway so rich and peaceful and prosper, and Venezuela in such poor shape? Because in Norway there is a certain culture, which calls for certain political ethics, which are evidently absent in Venezuela.
This also applies to the same Nation, in differing historical times. Italy under Mussolini was in a dictatorship, true, but that dictatorship implemented class reforms like never before, ensured public health, education and welfare, rebuilti the industry and made Italy one of Europe's most industrialized nations... all this was done under extremely rigid political discipline, such that nobody in his right mind ever tried any "hanky panky".
Unfortunately for the People, in 1939 Mussolini ruined it all and went to war, again...

However, in the last 20 years, so many political corruption scandals rocked Italy that the entire Party system was overthrown and remodeled, and now it's happening again.
It would have been unheard of under Mussolini; the US put all the old Party hyerarchy on trial but they were all acquitted - they were that clean.

So, you can't go and export democracy anymore than you can export rap music, or mayonnaise, or beef jerky; if it isn't compatible with the receiving end's culture, it's bound to fail, possibly in violence.
Iraq failed, Afghanistan failed, Somalia failed... all because the "imported goods" were not suitable with the receiving market.

If all some cultures can understand is "monarchy", let them have it; a controlled, constitutional monarchy is a far safer solution than a republic which simply won't work.
It's like feeding rump steak to a baby with no teeth; just because it's good for Daddy doesn't mean it's good for Baby, too.
technix
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 7:22:51 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 12/26/2012
Posts: 17
Location: Municipality of Shanghai, China
Socialism seemed like a good idea, but it is possible only when the level of moral of the people is high enough and the laws are good enough. I live in China (People's Republic of) which claimed to be a Socialism, but the low level of moral and bad systems of law consumed the country bad enough to make human rights invaded and me want to flee.
nazhinaz
Posted: Friday, January 11, 2013 10:46:39 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/16/2010
Posts: 293
Location: Longview, United States
technix wrote:
Socialism seemed like a good idea, but it is possible only when the level of moral of the people is high enough and the laws are good enough. I live in China (People's Republic of) which claimed to be a Socialism, but the low level of moral and bad systems of law consumed the country bad enough to make human rights invaded and me want to flee.

Every man who has a will and determnation to work for a better future for him and mankind would flee from Socialism.
As it kills human indiviual initiative.
Human beings are not machines; they are living beings, each differing from the other.
We should let human nitiative play its role in social society.
Lets not treat 7 billion human beings as social machines.
PhareDuFour
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:07:34 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/23/2012
Posts: 57
Location: United Kingdom
latinfoxy wrote:


exactly my point, so ill ask another question, in which country has socialism works? i guess in France works pretty good, but is it really socialism in there?


France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg - they call it "Social Democracy". Socialism is cannot be universally exchanged with the Communism.

Si vos postulo me, sed non vis me, oportet me manere.
Sed si vis me, sed non vos postulo me, oportet me abire.
BallChinian
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:48:29 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/5/2013
Posts: 252
Location: NorCal, United States
Illusion. Paying for others to take a vacation makes my chest hurt.

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set her free." -Michelangelo


Please Enjoy: The Beach, The Workout, The Hike
elitfromnorth
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:19:50 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
BallChinian wrote:
Illusion. Paying for others to take a vacation makes my chest hurt.


And exactly where and how does this happen?

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
BallChinian
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:30:19 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/5/2013
Posts: 252
Location: NorCal, United States
elitfromnorth wrote:


And exactly where and how does this happen?


At the moment, I get taxed at ~37% to pay for services I don't receive. Further, when it comes time for financial aid, I will be at a salary rate that doesn't allow me to receive any, so I'll need to take out loans. I pay for my home, which is under water and don't think it is right that I fold in order to let the government (and society eat the cost). So, I work my ass off while others sit around on unemployment, feeling sorry for themselves. Sure, this isn't everyone and I expect that there are many folks out there in really tough situations who want to do more but can't. Still, I'm busting my ass, paying a ton in taxes with little hope of support from my government. I see that I can't retire until I'm in the grave and can do little about it.

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set her free." -Michelangelo


Please Enjoy: The Beach, The Workout, The Hike
BallChinian
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:53:20 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/5/2013
Posts: 252
Location: NorCal, United States
Oh yea, throw in tax on sales, fuel and homes. Plus, we need to pay for our own retirement, education (since public education is terrible) and medical. Socialism would drive paying for this for everyone. How is this supposed to work? Debt or corruption will crush the society that depends on it.

If this seems callus and jaded I'm sorry.

"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set her free." -Michelangelo


Please Enjoy: The Beach, The Workout, The Hike
latinfoxy
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2013 7:10:56 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 816
Location: Here
PhareDuFour wrote:


France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg - they call it "Social Democracy". Socialism is cannot be universally exchanged with the Communism.


You are right about that, i guess im so used to those two been treated as equal that i do treated them like that also!

lambdavi wrote:

I would like you all to realize that whatever model works in one nation may well flunk bitterly in another nation for the simple reason of culture.
Why is Norway so rich and peaceful and prosper, and Venezuela in such poor shape? Because in Norway there is a certain culture, which calls for certain political ethics, which are evidently absent in Venezuela.


Pharedufour answered exactly why socialism doesnt work in Venezuela, its because Chavez is not trying to be France, Germany or Norway, but trying to be China, Cuba and Iran.
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