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At least 18 children and 9 others dead in Connecticut school shooting. Does this change your mind ab Options · View
principessa
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:24:57 AM

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I have just seen the news about the latest mass shooting in the US. While I understand that those in the country might want rifles for hunting, does anyone need an assault weapon anywhere? As I understand it they are made to kill people. Does this confirm your opinion about banning assault weapons or change your mind?

DanielleX
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:34:37 AM

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I've not cried since April Jones went missing, but I think I will before the night's out!

All guns are made to kill, it's just that some can be used in 'sport' too.

I don't think gun control will come to America if a thousand people were shot. Too many people believe the lives of little children are worth their right to bear arms.

It's fucked up!

Danielle

lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:48:14 AM

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Man in China attacks and injures 20+ with knife

Attackers douse four with flammable liquid and set afire.

Man kills teacher with crossbow

Man kills woman with knife, then shoots father with arrow


What happened today is tragic and I'm not trying to make light of the situation. But we are in a dangerous time in society. I truly think that we need to find out what is going on in our society that leads a person to commit such horrible acts. Not the weapon they choose to do it. Why are these people so angry? Who so alienated? Why has no one seen any signs of potential danger from these individuals? There is something deeper going on than "guns". We REALLY need to get to the root of the problem, what's causing so many people to go "postal".

As the above links highlight, any weapon in the hands of the wrong person can lead to the death of innocents.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Naughty_Magician
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:59:47 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:
Man in China attacks and injures 20+ with knife

Attackers douse four with flammable liquid and set afire.

Man kills teacher with crossbow

Man kills woman with knife, then shoots father with arrow


What happened today is tragic and I'm not trying to make light of the situation. But we are in a dangerous time in society. I truly think that we need to find out what is going on in our society that leads a person to commit such horrible acts. Not the weapon they choose to do it. Why are these people so angry? Who so alienated? Why has no one seen any signs of potential danger from these individuals? There is something deeper going on than "guns". We REALLY need to get to the root of the problem, what's causing so many people to go "postal".

As the above links highlight, any weapon in the hands of the wrong person can lead to the death of innocents.


Are you saying any of the crimes you listed were as bad as the school shooting?

I agree that the people, not weapons, kill people but a wacko dude with an assault rifle would cause much more damage than a wacko dude with a knife. Yes, we need to investigate how they got to that point and all that, but we also need to make the weapons used for mass-murdering inaccessible to people with mental issues.

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elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:01:12 PM

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lafayettemister wrote:
Man in China attacks and injures 20+ with knife

Attackers douse four with flammable liquid and set afire.

Man kills teacher with crossbow

Man kills woman with knife, then shoots father with arrow


What happened today is tragic and I'm not trying to make light of the situation. But we are in a dangerous time in society. I truly think that we need to find out what is going on in our society that leads a person to commit such horrible acts. Not the weapon they choose to do it. Why are these people so angry? Who so alienated? Why has no one seen any signs of potential danger from these individuals? There is something deeper going on than "guns". We REALLY need to get to the root of the problem, what's causing so many people to go "postal".

As the above links highlight, any weapon in the hands of the wrong person can lead to the death of innocents.


True, there is a necessity to understand WHY all this crap happens, but you can't dismiss the fact that an assult rifle is a lot more effective as a weapon to kill people than a knife. If a man with a knife is "unlucky enough"(from his point of view that is) to meet someone that has basic knowledge about close quarters combat or there are enough people that jump on him then he will be disarmed. This is a lot less likely with a man walking in with a 30 clip automatic rifle.

Problem is that they will always try to link the reason to something where they can blame what is considered morally wrong by the elders, which is usually violent video games(which has no scientifically or empirical proven cause on violence) or like in the case of the Columbine shooting; Marilyn Manson. Since these accusations have no sense in it what so ever and people are dead scared of asking the very troubling questions(like in the Columbine the kids were severly fucked up after years of bullying, but oh no, the victims can't have done anything wrong at all ever in their life!!!) you end up with what is just another statistic.

I'm just waiting for NRA to have another meeting in the nearest assembly hall to the school and cry out "From my cold dead hands" yet again.

And for a second thought; Breivik who went mental at Utøya last year killed 77 people with a bomb and two semi-automatic weapons, a rifle and a pistol. The deathtolls would easily be in the hundreds had he had fully automatic weapons. There is frankly no need for ordinary civilians to have weapons that are made for war!

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadySharon
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:02:29 PM

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I am so mad right now about that news, it's not even funny. My heart goes out to the families who lost their relatives in this tragedy.

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Guest
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:04:28 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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A very difficult question to answer. I'm leaning very much towards LM on this one. There uis something significant going on in the world today, and I can't help but think that if there were no guns, the people involved would have found something else. However - also think that making it difficult to acquire arms could (and I'm stressing could) make a small difference, there are no easy solutions aand I can see me changing views frequently...
ByronLord
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:11:22 PM

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Location: Massachusetts, United States
Just take away all the guns now.

One of the first NRA gun nuts I argued with was a man called Timothy McVeigh. He went on to plant the OKC bomb and murder almost 200 people.

I have never been in a situation where I thought that having a gun would make me any safer and several where having one would have probably got me killed. A gun is only a form of protection if it is drawn and once you draw a gun you escalate any dispute to a very different level.

elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:11:28 PM

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Question; does the 2nd ammendment that says everyone have the right to own a gun specify that you can have any kind of weapon of your choice? And surely there are some restrictions to what you can and can't own as weapons, or can I live in the US and buy my own minigun?

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
PhareDuFour
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 12:25:35 PM

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I live in a country which enjoys strict gun control. You can still own a gun, but up until recently people going "postal" with a weapon in their hand was rare.

Like many people will remind you, it's not the guns that kill people, it's the people pulling the trigger, and that's partially true. The problem though, is that many think if we have strict gun control, then only the "bad" people will have guns. But if you look closely, most of the murders with guns are good people gone bad. If they had a difficult time getting access to a gun, then there might be fewer gun-related murders. A gun simply makes it easier to kill someone. It's harder to kill someone with a ballpoint pen than a gun.

The most important thing people need to re-think is about regulating and de-esculating this "climate of fear" in America. Many people are motivated to commit violant acts, because television and media are constantly suggesting them to act violantly. They say about 90% of the gun-owners in America have a gun because they fear being attacked. Is this fear real or is it hyped up by the media that the "bad guys" are out to get you?

Even in a strict gun-controlled country like the Federal Republic of German, there hare been two schoolyard amok killers. That's two too many. It's motivate the government to think about regulating how much violance people under 18 should have access to via television, computer games and film.

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Ianthomas
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:23:01 PM

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Posts: 93
Another pointless comment from me really, as I am sorry I can never ever see a reason why someone should legally have a gun. Just thought I should put that upfront.

The great bowing down to the American constitution and the right to bear arms. Can someone wiser just put me straight on something please. There is no definition on arms that I can see in the constitution. Armed obviously covers knifes and is currently taken to also cover guns, and because America is so sweetly modern and flexible, there seems to be no limit on what is seen as a gun. Just following this splendid twisted logic through, can someone explain to me what is to stop every smiley American citizen being armed with their own personal nuclear weapon, which surely is just another arm. Gosh, now there is a market to be exploited. Hey it is in the constitution! Oh please don't say that we in the rest of the world can't sell you them! You so generously gave them to the world and now we want to give them back to you, with interest. (I apologise to all those in Canada and Mexico for this suggestion!)
Cullen1
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:26:30 PM

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Location: United States
Do not know all the details yet, but was in favor of gun control before this happened and remain that way. Maybe the sicko had just a handgun, but in many of these cases it is more likely to be an AK47 or something similar. Yes, people can kill people with any sort of weapon, but weapons created for mass assault are too easily attainable. You don't need them for hunting. They are made for human slaughter. Yes, we need to find ways to address what makes a killer a killer. But unless or until we can cure all mental illnesses, let's at least make it hard as hell for them to obtain guns made for mass assault.
heymoe
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:45:26 PM

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no
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:46:47 PM

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PhareDuFour wrote:

Even in a strict gun-controlled country like the Federal Republic of German, there hare been two schoolyard amok killers. That's two too many. It's motivate the government to think about regulating how much violance people under 18 should have access to via television, computer games and film.


There have never been any corrolation between exposure to video games and aggression. Sure, there have been cases of people that are completely fucked in the head and goes "I just wanted to see if it was as easy as in GTA", but those are the exceptions. Look at Japan and South Korea. The highest amount of gamers in the world. The top gamers in South Korea are at the same level of fame as top atheletes in other countries. If there was any corrolation between video games and violence then there would be a school shootout once a month in these two countries.

Reason video games usually gets the blame is because it's easier to blame those. Of course they don't mention the fact that you should be 18 before playing that and that game and parents still buy it for their 13yo kid, so if anyone's to blame it's the parents, not the video game makers. And the games are usually more clearly marked what's in them than there are tags on movies. It's just another way to put something demonic that they don't really understand as the reason.

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groucho
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 2:02:56 PM

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this is how i see it, kids. for many years now we have followed fairly lax control laws in the usa. the results of this are horribly on display today. there is a very small group that i call the right to bear arms screamers - any time anyone brings up 'gun control' these people scream about their rights getting trampled on, they scream about government wanting to take away their guns, they scream that the best way to stop this would be to arm everyone (yes, this is true, the head of the nra said that the woman who was killed in kansas city would be alive now if she would have had a gun and many commented that the shootings in the colorado theatre would have ended sooner had patrons there also been armed!) they scream and scream and scream - veins standing out in their necks and foreheads, spittle flying, not willing to listen and never willing to compropmise.

now we as a nation are living proof of the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results.

there have to be safer and saner rules, laws, and regulations that we can put in place that will make us safer. we have to try. we have to stop allowing the screamers from dictating the public discourse. we have to stop the big money nra lobby dictating the gun laws. we have to stop greed from dictating everything.

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TxPrincess
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 2:12:50 PM

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Banning will not help the issue. The saying Guns don't kill people, People kill people is the issue here. If you ban any type of guns you are talking the guns from the people that are trying to protect themselves and their family. The crazy people that go on shooting sprees are not the ones that are registered and responsible gun owners, so banning guns would not help keep illegal guns from the bad people.

lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 2:17:36 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


There have never been any corrolation between exposure to video games and aggression. Sure, there have been cases of people that are completely fucked in the head and goes "I just wanted to see if it was as easy as in GTA", but those are the exceptions. Look at Japan and South Korea. The highest amount of gamers in the world. The top gamers in South Korea are at the same level of fame as top atheletes in other countries. If there was any corrolation between video games and violence then there would be a school shootout once a month in these two countries.

Reason video games usually gets the blame is because it's easier to blame those. Of course they don't mention the fact that you should be 18 before playing that and that game and parents still buy it for their 13yo kid, so if anyone's to blame it's the parents, not the video game makers. And the games are usually more clearly marked what's in them than there are tags on movies. It's just another way to put something demonic that they don't really understand as the reason.


I was just having this discussion with someone on facebook. I think it's fair to reassess gun control laws after this outbreak of violence. But at the same time, I think we need to reassess the possibility that viewing violence also plays a factor. I've never bought into the whole watch violence, play violent video games leads to violent people. It may be time to rethink that. Not a true comparison to use the USA against South Korea and Japan. The societies as a whole are too different. Societal convention is different, in those countries things are still very Paternal and there's less chance of a person acting out in this way.

I'm not sure if violent movies or games are at fault, but it's worthy of discussion and looking into. After so many tragedies, nothing should be off limits in finding a cause.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
jem3
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:00:34 PM

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I live and have grown up in Connecticut. This state has some of if not the top 3 strictest gun controls in the nation. There are more people in this state that oppose guns than those of us who own them. As with any tragic and horrific event the Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the wood work and cry for control this, or take away that, or critique who did what wrong.
Like it or not 20 families do not have their precious children to raise any more. Also 7 Adult family members are also no longer with us. It is not fair that it was, "their time"... but using events like this to forward an ajenda is wrong, it insults the living survivors and the deceist victims and their families. When you see you loved ones give them a hug tonight, tell them that you love them and reflect on how lucky you are.
Even with all the laws and banning guns altogether things like this will happen reguardless of what laws, rules, or beliefs you have. A person that is not "normal" and willing to die will always, unfortunately do their worst... no matter what is in their way. All you can do is be aware of your surrondings, be compassionate to those who have it worse than you, and value the precious short time we enjoy each day on this planet. Remember no one is guaranteed a new sunrise, so carpe diem.


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Guest
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:07:31 PM

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In my opinion, gun control will not matter in tragic killings like this. Hear me out here; I’m not rejecting gun control, but think about it, if someone is distraught and in an unstable mind, they will find a way to get guns, whether it be to illegally obtain it or not. The news mentioned if you notice someone you know being stressed to get them help, and I agree. You never know if it's more than stress or not, or what a person is capable of in an unstable place of mind.
eiffel2007
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:17:03 PM

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This short clip from a few years ago says some interesting things about the role of rolling news in perpetuating a cycle of violence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:18:08 PM

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lafayettemister wrote:


I was just having this discussion with someone on facebook. I think it's fair to reassess gun control laws after this outbreak of violence. But at the same time, I think we need to reassess the possibility that viewing violence also plays a factor. I've never bought into the whole watch violence, play violent video games leads to violent people. It may be time to rethink that. Not a true comparison to use the USA against South Korea and Japan. The societies as a whole are too different. Societal convention is different, in those countries things are still very Paternal and there's less chance of a person acting out in this way.

I'm not sure if violent movies or games are at fault, but it's worthy of discussion and looking into. After so many tragedies, nothing should be off limits in finding a cause.


That's the thing. They have done so much research on the matter and they still haven't found any definiete proof that yes, playing violent video games and watching violent movies makes you more prone to violence. There's absolutely zilch. Sure, it pisses us gamers off more than anything when we lose, but that's our competative instinct, not our lust for violence.

In most cases the answer will be much closer to the school. As I noted, the columbine kids had been systematically bullied for some time, but in that case they didn't want to admit it. How could the kids that got shot at have anything to do with the cause behind it? They were the victims, so this could under no circumstances be two kids pushed to the brink of their sanity by their fellow classmates that finally struck back against the bullies. That would mean blaming kids, and there's no way we can do that. Our kids can never be at fault at anything.

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Dani
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:22:45 PM

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lafayettemister wrote:



What happened today is tragic and I'm not trying to make light of the situation. But we are in a dangerous time in society. I truly think that we need to find out what is going on in our society that leads a person to commit such horrible acts. Not the weapon they choose to do it. Why are these people so angry? Who so alienated? Why has no one seen any signs of potential danger from these individuals? There is something deeper going on than "guns". We REALLY need to get to the root of the problem, what's causing so many people to go "postal".

As the above links highlight, any weapon in the hands of the wrong person can lead to the death of innocents.


I understand that it's usually a factor, but it really bugs me when psychology is brought in with cases such as these. We can't attribute every act like this to "mental illness". There are so many functioning members of society that deal with mental illnesses. It becomes a stigma. It's so easy to say that "That person was crazy" because we don't want to deal with the fact that someone completely sane by society's standards can do this. Some people are just bad and bad doesn't equate to psychosis. I'm not saying that mental illness is never a factor, but it's not always the case. I mean do we question the mental health/stability of reckless or drunk drivers who knowingly put themselves and others at risk? Sometimes people are just cruel, with full understanding of what they're doing. And we shouldn't always play the crazy card. What saddens me is that when things like this happen and we want to bring psychology into it, it puts people who truly suffer from mental illness in a box. It kind of brings back the old times of when crimes happened in the south, and it was easy to cry "big black man" and this was the accepted norm. So now every time something tragic and inexplicable happens and we need a motive, will we always claim mental instability? Extreme actions not born of psychosis are very possible, but are just scarier and not as dismissable. Again, perhaps his mental health was an issue, but it can also be just another scape goat.



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Naughty_Magician
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:23:20 PM

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NightFox wrote:
In my opinion, gun control will not matter in tragic killings like this. Hear me out here; I’m not rejecting gun control, but think about it, if someone is distraught and in an unstable mind, they will find a way to get guns, whether it be to illegally obtain it or not. The news mentioned if you notice someone you know being stressed to get them help, and I agree. You never know if it's more than stress or not, or what a person is capable of in an unstable place of mind.


Most mentally unstable people would cause whatever harm they can with whichever weapon is readily available so if they can't get a gun, they would attack with a knife or something. Also, if someone thinks they might not be able to kill many people, it might not be worth it for them, killing just one or two persons doesn't give them the satisfaction they want. Therefore, gun control would make a massive difference.

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principessa
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:29:12 PM

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Location: Canada
While there may be no proven link between violence in the media and games and perpetrating it on others, I do think that these movies, games, and even some music desensitize people to real violence and the impact it has on real people. Carnage may seem like an extension to a game, with no sense of how it shatters lives - real blood, real injuries, real people.

Guest
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:38:57 PM

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Naughty_Magician wrote:


Most mentally unstable people would cause whatever harm they can with whichever weapon is readily available so if they can't get a gun, they would attack with a knife or something. Also, if someone thinks they might not be able to kill many people, it might not be worth it for them, killing just one or two persons doesn't give them the satisfaction they want. Therefore, gun control would make a massive difference.




I understand that, I was just pointing out that no matter gun control or not, people can and will find a way to obtain them. Gun control will help, but it wont completely stop access to guns.
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 3:42:15 PM

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slipperywhenwet2012 wrote:


I understand that it's usually a factor, but it really bugs me when psychology is brought in with cases such as these. We can't attribute every act like this to "mental illness". There are so many functioning members of society that deal with mental illnesses. It becomes a stigma. It's so easy to say that "That person was crazy" because we don't want to deal with the fact that someone completely sane by society's standards can do this. Some people are just bad and bad doesn't equate to psychosis. I'm not saying that mental illness is never a factor, but it's not always the case. I mean do we question the mental health/stability of reckless or drunk drivers who knowingly put themselves and others at risk? Sometimes people are just cruel, with full understanding of what they're doing. And we shouldn't always play the crazy card. What saddens me is that when things like this happen and we want to bring psychology into it, it puts people who truly suffer from mental illness in a box. It kind of brings back the old times of when crimes happened in the south, and it was easy to cry "big black man" and this was the accepted norm. So now every time something tragic and inexplicable happens and we need a motive, will we always claim mental instability? Extreme actions not born of psychosis are very possible, but are just scarier and not as dismissable. Again, perhaps his mental health was an issue, but it can also be just another scape goat.


I actually agree with you. When I say "postal", I'm not necessarily referring to a clinical diagnosis of mental instability. There are people in history that have had no history of violence or even breaking the law, who have just suddenly snapped. I do think we throw around the "he's crazy" line too much. It almost alleviates their perception of guilt. I'm not saying that.

My concern is what is happening to make these people so "bad" or "cruel". How do we cultivate that badness while not seeing it right in front of our eyes until it's too late. The frequency of these attacks should have us questioning everything we do. Not just blaming the guns.

Is the media partly to blame? By giving such overwhelming coverage on every channel on tv, do we encourage this behavior? There was a time when streakers and other people would run onto the playing fields of baseball, football (american football), and soccer. They were great blooper reel clips, but it encouraged others to do it. So tv station began to cut away from the field anytime someone ran onto it. And the incidents went down. Alot. Could it be that there's some sort of copycat or media/publicity aspect of this is causing more attacks? I don't know, but we should be looking into every possible scenario.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
99zx7r
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 4:08:07 PM

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Guns have been around for hundreds of years. We need to look at what has changed. Lack of discipline with kids growing up for the past 20 years. Lack of parenting for the same. Guns don't kill people without someone pulling the trigger. You can't blame the tool only the user.
99zx7r
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 4:15:38 PM

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principessa wrote:
I have just seen the news about the latest mass shooting in the US. While I understand that those in the country might want rifles for hunting, does anyone need an assault weapon anywhere? As I understand it they are made to kill people. Does this confirm your opinion about banning assault weapons or change your mind?


I'm from Ct. Why would I now not want to defend my home with what ever weapon I choose?
99zx7r
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 4:21:05 PM

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ByronLord wrote:
Just take away all the guns now.

One of the first NRA gun nuts I argued with was a man called Timothy McVeigh. He went on to plant the OKC bomb and murder almost 200 people.

I have never been in a situation where I thought that having a gun would make me any safer and several where having one would have probably got me killed. A gun is only a form of protection if it is drawn and once you draw a gun you escalate any dispute to a very different level.


You have got to be kidding me. I've been in situations where the other party just knowing I had guns has protected me. You obviously have never lived where there is gangs or along the border.
99zx7r
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 4:27:02 PM

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Bottom line from my world is, gun control will never work. If people want a gun, they'll find it. Just like movies on the internet. In fact I believe it'll be worse. There will be more automatic weapons and untraceable weapons also. I have absolutely no problem with the government knowing what serial numbers I have. I'm not going to shoot another person unless they threaten my family. That's about all I have to say about that.
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