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Stories - Should we disable deleting? Options · View
gav
Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 11:33:58 PM

Rank: Code Monkey

Joined: 12/25/2006
Posts: 1,251
Location: Syd, Australia
Hi

Now we have the ability to hide a story, what do people think about removing the option to delete a story (from members)?

We would always have the option to send us a message to have one permanently deleted of course.

Discuss....

Mazza
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 4:55:01 AM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,048
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
I'd be inclined to leave the delete option...

Maybe if a member goes to delete a story then a pop up box "are you sure you wouldn't prefer to 'hide' it?" option could come up or something - the same way it informs that you can deactivate your account, rather than deleting it...
sweet_as_candy
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 5:28:17 AM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 5/28/2012
Posts: 2,346
Location: In the library
I think removing the delete button is a good idea.

Would this then mean that for those who delete their accounts, for whatever reason, their stories would remain? This would prevent having to re-verify a batch of stories that have already been submitted, verified and scored upon in the past, once that person returns.

coffee




Mazza
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 5:43:06 AM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,048
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
I never had a problem re-verifying stories when they were re-submitted. Really, what's the difference whether it's a new or an old story? It's the choice of the individual mod whether to pick up and verify a story or not, whether that choice is due to subject matter or time available to verify or whatever...

If a story is a re-submission, well, sure, it may sit at the bottom of the queue a little longer than a new one, but the list will get shorter and there will be other mods who don't mind re-verifying them.

People leave and come back, it happens, that's life. Removing the "delete" button won't stop stories being deleted when a member leaves, the stories disappear with their account anyway, so what difference does it actually make if the delete button is gone? As it stands, the 'problem' seems to be with account deletion and subesquent new accounts and resubmitted stories, rather than someone making a conscious decision to delete one of their stories?

Maybe what we need is more info for those who are about to delete their accounts: your stories, if you choose to resubmit them, may not be verified by the moderating team, at their discretion, or something?

If you don't want to verify a story, don't pick it up. Surely it's a mod's job to get stories posted onto the site (be they old or new)? Now whether that means working with an author to get their story to publishable - which can take a few rejections and re-submissions - is that so very different from a re-submission, or someone making edits and changes to a story and it having to be re-verified?

I don't think it's fair to the contributors to not allow them to resubmit their stories if they come back (sure if they're doing it every few months, then of course it would become tiresome as a mod, but generally people don't and certainly not with the intention of pissing off the "staff")
sweet_as_candy
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:33:28 AM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 5/28/2012
Posts: 2,346
Location: In the library
I do agree. I do not think anyone would not want the contributors to continue posting their stories whether they be old or new.

I was posing the question to see if the stories could remain (like their forum posts once their account is deleted). I dont think any mod has an issue with re-verifying stories for people who have previously left. I think that some people enjoy others stories and could have them on their favourites list or whatever. As Gav has pointed out, if people want their stories deleted they could go through the lush admin to have them permanently deleted instead of a delete button? dontknow





LadyX
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:52:05 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
It's enough of an issue when people leave then come back, and choose to re-instate all of thier stories, but if people are leaving their account intact and remaining active, but deleting then resubmitting the same story, I can see how that would get irksome from an admin. perspective. After all, you can already hide stories, so what possible reason is there to delete them if you aren't doing the 'account delete' thing? I'm sure people occasionally have valid reasons, and that's when, as Gav mentioned, they can send a personal message to admin. regarding that request.
DLizze
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 8:54:00 AM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 4/23/2011
Posts: 2,552
I would like to see deleting disablesd for any story that has not been verified and accepted. I don't mind re-verifying stories if an author returns after a hiatus. As Mazza says, life is like that - things happen and we come and go. I intensely dislike seeing stories that I or other verifiers have rejected coming back as new submittals, with all the previous rejection comments gone. IN fact, I'd like to see a latch put in the system that, once a story title has been submitted, makes it impossible to submit another of the same title and author, unless the previous one has been approved.

"There's only three tempos: slow, medium and fast. When you get between in the cracks, ain't nuthin' happenin'." Ben Webster
Mazza
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 9:31:27 AM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,048
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
DLizze wrote:
I would like to see deleting disablesd for any story that has not been verified and accepted. I don't mind re-verifying stories if an author returns after a hiatus. As Mazza says, life is like that - things happen and we come and go. I intensely dislike seeing stories that I or other verifiers have rejected coming back as new submittals, with all the previous rejection comments gone. IN fact, I'd like to see a latch put in the system that, once a story title has been submitted, makes it impossible to submit another of the same title and author, unless the previous one has been approved.


Oh yes, I remember how annoying it was when rejected stories were submitted as new rather than re-submitted... I sometimes think that the writers were unaware that they could re-submit though... But it was a real pain when you couldn't see what changes had been made or removal notices by other mods...

Surely though, writers shouldn't need permission to delete stories they've written and submitted? Would Lush, in not allowing them to delete their stories, be withholding their intellectual property or something? I mean, would you as a writer have to waive teh rights to your stories and sign them over to Lush when you submitted them?

Forum posts are different, I mean, technically, you could go back and delete them all before you left if you wanted to. Surely in the same way that all of our account details disappear when the account does, then the stories should too?

I dunno... Not being able to delete stuff seems unnecessary to me...
Guest
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 10:57:38 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
I would like to have the option of deleting a story I wrote, if for no other reason than it was something that I created, and should I for whatever reason(s) want to delete a story that I posted I should have the right to do so.
Icarus32
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 12:41:34 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/10/2012
Posts: 257
Location: Around, Canada
Fantasyweaver wrote:
I would like to have the option of deleting a story I wrote, if for no other reason than it was something that I created, and should I for whatever reason(s) want to delete a story that I posted I should have the right to do so.


my thoughts exactly
Guest
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 4:52:46 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
gav wrote:
Hi

Now we have the ability to hide a story, what do people think about removing the option to delete a story (from members)?

We would always have the option to send us a message to have one permanently deleted of course.

Discuss....



I like it the idea of removing that option, that way we wouldn't have so much double and sometimes triple handling of stories.

Also, people who send in stories that break the rules would think twice about deleting their stories and then resubmitting the same ones with no changes thinking that we wouldn't notice.

If someone really wanted a story deleted, as Gav said, that would still be available, all you'd have to do is send in a message saying that you want it removed.
nicola
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:08:37 PM

Rank: Matriarch

Joined: 12/6/2006
Posts: 25,571
Location: The Orgasmatron
I'd remove it.

Coupled with disallowing duplicate / very similar titles, it would stop those people who think they might be able to get a rejected story past admin, by submitting it a second time, as "new".

Mazza, you must have a short memory. It's bloody infuriating verifying the same stories you've already verified and edited, particularly when the queue is piling up. Especially so, when you've spent perhaps half an hour on each story, correcting all the mistakes, and then the person submits their original copy again.

If the person had 10 stories, that means 10 x 30 mins = 5 hours have been spent by volunteers already. Submitting them again means another 5 hours admin time. That 5 hours could be used processing new stories. If the new stories didn't require much work, that's 30 stories we could have processed, give or take.

I hate double-handling, it's a pet peeve of mine.

sprite
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 10:44:11 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 14,663
Location: My Tower, United States
nicola wrote:
I'd remove it.

Coupled with disallowing duplicate / very similar titles, it would stop those people who think they might be able to get a rejected story past admin, by submitting it a second time, as "new".

Mazza, you must have a short memory. It's bloody infuriating verifying the same stories you've already verified and edited, particularly when the queue is piling up. Especially so, when you've spent perhaps half an hour on each story, correcting all the mistakes, and then the person submits their original copy again.

If the person had 10 stories, that means 10 x 30 mins = 5 hours have been spent by volunteers already. Submitting them again means another 5 hours admin time. That 5 hours could be used processing new stories. If the new stories didn't require much work, that's 30 stories we could have processed, give or take.

I hate double-handling, it's a pet peeve of mine.



on top of this, we have to keep an eye out for plagiarized stories here, and oftentimes when someone resubmits a 'new story' after deleting and returning, and i recognize it as something i've read before, but aren't aware it's a resubmit, i end up wasting a lot of time doing a search to see if it's previously published material, and yes, this IS part of the job, and a time eater, for those who don't know what goes on behind the scenes. we do a search, and then, if we find it else where, we contact the author via email so we can discern if it's stolen or if it's just someone posting on more than one site.

for the record, Nicola's apx. time per story of 30 minutes is accurate - the time we spend working behind the scenes is quite a huge chunk of our Lush time and we don't resent it, but please, we don't need a larger work pile, especially around the holidays when most of us have a lot of other things going on and the story submission rate traditionally doubles.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
She
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 2:58:17 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,162
Location: Europe
Yes, you should disable it.
I am not a moderator so I can easily say that you should do what is easier for mods. I can imagine how irretating must be when people are changing their minds on monthly bassis, beside I think personal request is fair if someone wants to permanently delete a story.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 4:53:30 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
If I'm not mistaken then resubmitted stories will end up on the front page, right? So people deleting already verified stories and then resubmitting them they steal time on the front page from people that actually work hard and produce new stuff. So it's unfair not only towards the mods that get a shitload of more unnecessary work, but also the other authors. That's why we have the only one story per 24 hours rule, right?

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Guest
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012 6:38:45 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
I've deleted stories for various artistic or personal reasons and would like to know I could 'dis-own' stories in the future. I often re-write or throw things away. To not be allowed to do so seems Orwellian and anti creativity. I would have to think long and hard before posting anything again, if I knew I could never change my mind. Otherwise I'd have to delete my entire account and change my pen name as the only way of distancing myself from a story I no longer wanted to represent me, (although I suppose I could always 'edit' all the words).

I appreciate the time and effort Moderators devote to helping us, but If you are going to institute this, please give us some warning...


...Or maybe I just need an explanation of the 'Hide' function. Is it like deciding not to throw my garbage out, just hide it underneath the bed and in the closet?
elitfromnorth
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 4:55:15 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
Oberon wrote:
I've deleted stories for various artistic or personal reasons and would like to know I could 'dis-own' stories in the future. I often re-write or throw things away. To not be allowed to do so seems Orwellian and anti creativity. I would have to think long and hard before posting anything again, if I knew I could never change my mind. Otherwise I'd have to delete my entire account and change my pen name as the only way of distancing myself from a story I no longer wanted to represent me, (although I suppose I could always 'edit' all the words).

I appreciate the time and effort Moderators devote to helping us, but If you are going to institute this, please give us some warning...


...Or maybe I just need an explanation of the 'Hide' function. Is it like deciding not to throw my garbage out, just hide it underneath the bed and in the closet?


Pretty much like this, apart from the foul smell and the rats. And if you really want your story removed then all you need to do is send a PM to the right people and they'll zapp it for you. It's not like a situation where "you submit it, we own it!", but it's more to avoid people submitting the same story over and over and over again.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:06:49 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
Well, OK. I don't really understand the re-posting issue, but I would like to be able to re-post a story if I re-write it, and I don't know if I'll be able to do that if I Hide it rather than Delete it, and while this may not mean that Lush owns my story in perpetuity, I will no longer feel that I do.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:09:48 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
Oberon wrote:
Well, OK. I don't really understand the re-posting issue, but I would like to be able to re-post a story if I re-write it, and I don't know if I'll be able to do that if I Hide it rather than Delete it, and while this may not mean that Lush owns my story in perpetuity, I will no longer feel that I do.


If you re-write a story, you can simply edit it instead of resubmitting it. This makes it a whole lot easier to verify since a full revision won't have to be done on something that was previously verified. You'll still own your story, it's not like we have a fierce lush monster sitting in the back and we're going to hand him all the stories so that you can't get them back (Lenny is quite nice, he won't chew up your story beyond recognition before he hands it back). You can still delete as you see fit, it'll just be done in a different way.

Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:18:47 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
'K.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:24:34 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
Any member of Lush should have the right to delete a story if they choose to and we should not have to ask permission to do so. It smacks of a 'nanny state'.

This seems to be about the mods not wanting to waste time re-verifying stories and that is quite right. Because of a few rogues everyone will lose their right to free choice . Surely you should be targeting them more vigorously.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:37:38 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,935
sisters wrote:
Any member of Lush should have the right to delete a story if they choose to and we should not have to ask permission to do so. It smacks of a 'nanny state'.

This seems to be about the mods not wanting to waste time re-verifying stories and that is quite right. Because of a few rogues everyone will lose their right to free choice . Surely you should be targeting them more vigorously.


If you have suggestions about how the rogues could be better monitored, we'd be glad to see them.
gav
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:22:11 PM

Rank: Code Monkey

Joined: 12/25/2006
Posts: 1,251
Location: Syd, Australia
So it seems in general, authors want the ability to delete their own stories. It's hard to retrofit these kind on decisions on a well established site.

We will keep the delete functionality as it is now, with the author in control.

crazydiamond
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:25:37 PM

Rank: Clever Gem

Joined: 7/17/2011
Posts: 2,286
Location: Exactly where I should be!, Canada
gav wrote:
So it seems in general, authors want the ability to delete their own stories. It's hard to retrofit these kind on decisions on a well established site.

We will keep the delete functionality as it is now, with the author in control.



Ok but what about the code monkey's avatar?? it could be more festive as far as I know ???? bunny

(do it gav, do it!!!!) Peer pressure!!!!

Poppet
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:40:06 PM

Rank: Sweetest Cricket

Joined: 10/5/2012
Posts: 5,259
Location: You Inspire Me, United States
I can understand why the mods want the delete choice, I can see their point. However as an Author I want and should have the choice to delete stories if I so choose to. Yes we could have the choice of contacting the right people to have THEM delete it but why can’t we just have the choice to delete as we want when we want? I don’t like the idea of removing the delete button. Please keep it..

Thanks!

crazydiamond
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:50:46 PM

Rank: Clever Gem

Joined: 7/17/2011
Posts: 2,286
Location: Exactly where I should be!, Canada
I agree, i deleted some recently as they were so not releveant to me anymore. We should have that choice really. Some things are quite personal, a way to vent, when that's done you want to rid, I did, it feels intoxicating. bunny The delight of writing is good, but the delight of hindsight matches nothing. xx

Mazza
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 1:09:05 PM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,048
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
crazydiamond wrote:
I agree, i deleted some recently as they were so not releveant to me anymore. We should have that choice really. Some things are quite personal, a way to vent, when that's done you want to rid, I did, it feels intoxicating. bunny The delight of writing is good, but the delight of hindsight matches nothing. xx


Well put CD! I agree
Frank_Lee
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:14:09 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 234
Clearly, people need to be more aware of the valuable time the mods contribute here, and resubmitting a story that's been deleted does seem to be a presumptuous abuse of their time. It would be understandable if someone deleted a story and then made significant revisions, but now with the option to hide the story, deleting wouldn't be necessary. The policy of not verifying stories that were already verified once before is clear and fair.

However, if I didn't have the option to easily delete material that essentially belongs to me, I'd have to think a lot harder about whether to submit something or not. I'd probably stop submitting poems altogether if I didn't have the option to delete them.

While the incredible contribution of the mods here is absolutely indispensable, not to mention gracious on a Herculean level, it's also true that many writers here invest a great deal of time and effort in their writing, and then submit what we write here for people's free entertainment. It's a whole lot of work on everyone's part, and the option to delete shows us deference and respect. Please leave this option as it is.



crazydiamond
Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:56:08 PM

Rank: Clever Gem

Joined: 7/17/2011
Posts: 2,286
Location: Exactly where I should be!, Canada
Frank_Lee wrote:
Clearly, people need to be more aware of the valuable time the mods contribute here, and resubmitting a story that's been deleted does seem to be a presumptuous abuse of their time. It would be understandable if someone deleted a story and then made significant revisions, but now with the option to hide the story, deleting wouldn't be necessary. The policy of not verifying stories that were already verified once before is clear and fair.

However, if I didn't have the option to easily delete material that essentially belongs to me, I'd have to think a lot harder about whether to submit something or not. I'd probably stop submitting poems altogether if I didn't have the option to delete them.

While the incredible contribution of the mods here is absolutely indispensable, not to mention gracious on a Herculean level, it's also true that many writers here invest a great deal of time and effort in their writing, and then submit what we write here for people's free entertainment. It's a whole lot of work on everyone's part, and the option to delete shows us deference and respect. Please leave this option as it is.


I totally agree to that, my only point was that some times we post to vent, to get closure, when that has happened we delete. i would never fathom , resubmitting what i have deleted but , I do see how some may. Its a funny one I suppose. It's all down to the writers mission i guess.

She
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 11:26:35 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,162
Location: Europe
I am not sure if I understand this..what I read from people who defend delete button, is that they don't want to be bothered with extra step when they will want to delete, yes essentially their work, even though moderators are working their asses off so they can get attention they want from readers.

As I see it it is easy and I am quite surprised that Nicola is willing to consider lush people's opinion on this one. We have hide button (for those who want to delete/hide their work, but are just not quite decided what to do; this button can be used for those who are still working on their already published stories) and when decision is firm and you definitely want your story off your list, easy, just send pm to mod and is done deal.

Why so much resistance with one small step for authors when it would make moderators work easier?
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