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Abortion and the Death Penalty Options · View
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:22:58 PM

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Just wanted someone to explain this logically and rationally.

Most democrats believe in a woman's right to choose, particularly in the case of rape and incest. Most democrats also vehemently oppose the death penalty, and I don't know of any that would support it for rape or incest. Now, I'm not saying there is a right answer, that I have any strong belief one way or the other, or that I have the answers, but I do try to approach issues rationally.

So even in the case of rape or incest where the woman gets pregnant, can someone please explain rationally why it's okay to abort the unborn fetus but the rapist gets to live? How do you justify killing an innocent and denying them even a first chance at life, while at the same time argue that a criminal be allowed to live, often after only a few years in prison, because they MAY be innocent or "deserve" a second chance? Seems rather contradictory to me.

Please discuss rationally and treat everyone with respect--no name calling.



sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:34:54 PM

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i'm one of the democrats you're talking about - i am in favor of abortion in the first trimester whether it be rape, incest, or accident. my personal belief is that life doesn't really start for the first 3 months - can i prove that? no. but i don't think it can be disproven, either, so to me, it's not truly taking a human life.

now, the death penalty - you ARE taking a human life and, possibly, an innocent life, as has happened in the past. also, in my opinion, life in prison without the possibility of parole is as much a punishment as sitting in prison for decades in a country where it really is decades between sentencing and execution. also, the studies seem to lean towards the death penalty costing the state more money than life imprisonment, so that's a factor as well. :)

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
principessa
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 3:32:24 PM

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Becky, what happens when someone is wrongfully convicted? It is bad enough to spend time in prison for a crime you did not commit, but to die for it? These cases do happen. What would you do about it?

freakycactus
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 3:54:08 PM

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You're forgetting about the woman who has to carry the foetus, if she's been abused / raped / sexually assaulted why should she have to carry a foetus and give birth to a baby because you disagree with abortion? Surely her mental health and well being is important, or is it not as important as the foetus? Should she become an incubator for the unborn child and become a secondary citizen in her own body?

Also, innocent lives are lost through the death penalty. It's too easy for someone innocent to be put to death, so for me, its not worth the risk, and on top of that, it costs a fortune to do it.

If you want to argue about innocent lives being lost, then you should also argue against contraception and male masturbation, every sperm that is released without the chance to fertilise an egg is a potential innocent life wasted!

Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 3:58:18 PM

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Sprite, I'm glad you admit that you support abortions even for accidents. It's nice to know that your convenience is more important than human life. I'm sorry, it's not life until 13wks for you. Your vast level of knowledge of fetal embryology has certainly formed the foundation of your reasoning. I must go back to medical school, seems I've forgotten what event occurs at 13wks gestation that would define life. Hope you are in the picket lines at abortion clinics who perform abortions after 13wks, which would be all of them.

And Principessa, if someone dies for a crime they didn't commit, I'm okay with that. Like you said, it's rare. I have faith in our criminal justice system, let it work. Still, the thread had nothing to do with the death penalty. It has to do with contradictory logic. Saying you are against the death penalty because the rare case in which some innocent person may be sentenced to death while saying that it's acceptable for an innocent child be aborted and never given the right to live is contradictory logic.

principessa
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:04:55 PM

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Joined: 8/23/2011
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Location: Canada
Kinky_Becky wrote:
if someone dies for a crime they didn't commit, I'm okay with that.


Really? Even if it were a relative, friend, or your partner? You would just say oops...... So you are okay with taking an innocent life after all, despite your argument against abortion. Only in this instance it is a real, living human being. So who is illogical?

crazydiamond
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:06:44 PM

Rank: Clever Gem

Joined: 7/17/2011
Posts: 2,286
Location: Exactly where I should be!, Canada
Talk about contradictory... You are saying abortion is wrong and death penalty is right??
Either way human life is lost.
Pick a side woman!

LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:12:03 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Kinky_Becky wrote:
I'm sorry, it's not life until 13wks for you. Your vast level of knowledge of fetal embryology has certainly formed the foundation of your reasoning. I must go back to medical school, seems I've forgotten what event occurs at 13wks gestation that would define life.


Well that didn't take long for you to break your own rule.

Kinky_Becky wrote:
Please discuss rationally and treat everyone with respect--no name calling.


So, is this whole thread just a weak setup for you to snidely beat others over the head with your introductory point? Two or three (or four or five) others could do the same to you, but they probably won't, since somebody asked for a respectful, civil conversation at the outset...

We get it, we get it, she's got a bad argument and you've got a good one, right? Congrats on that, and presumably, on medical school, too.
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:12:55 PM

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Joined: 9/10/2012
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Freakycactus, are you suggesting that the burden of carrying a prodigy of rape inside you constitutes a right to murder? I mean you don't seem to be suggesting that killing the baby isn't wrong, just that the mother's right to her mental faculties supersedes the child's right to live.

Here's an idea. How about if the woman is raped, she take the morning after pill. That would end the pregnancy before it even started, as implantation doesn't occur until day 3. Then there's no abortion at all.

Lets be really clear about this. Democrats love to bring up the rape issue, but it's not really about rape. I don't see any huge support to ban abortion except for cases of rape, incest, or concern for maternal life. No, it's about not taking responsibility for yourself, which is the biggest problem facing this country right now. People don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions. When they screw up, they expect the government to come bale them out. Get pregnant because I didn't take my birth control or because the guy I was trying to trap said no, I'll just go get a free abortion. But keep arguing that you are really just trying to protect the poor rape victims if you want, if that makes you feel better about who you really are. Keep telling yourself it's not a life if that makes you feel better about your decision.

LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:14:26 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Nice biased assessment of an opinion you don't even identify with.

Let's be clear about something else, too. You don't really deserve the dialogue you asked for.
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:15:12 PM

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crazydiamond,

first, i never said i was for or against anything, but I can rationalize it.

If a person becomes such a danger to society, if they take another person's life, they lose their own right to live. An innocent child did no such thing.

principessa
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:15:50 PM

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Joined: 8/23/2011
Posts: 4,306
Location: Canada
LadyX wrote:
Nice biased assessment of an opinion you don't even identify with.

Let's be clear about something else, too. You don't really deserve the dialogue you asked for.


Thank you, Lady X. Over and out.

crazydiamond
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:18:20 PM

Rank: Clever Gem

Joined: 7/17/2011
Posts: 2,286
Location: Exactly where I should be!, Canada
Oi becky. ENOUGH OF YOUR KINK. Everyone here has a right to a civil opinion as you stated.
I think it's time for your nap.
Turn in ignoramous. angry7

sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:22:36 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 14,551
Location: My Tower, United States
Kinky_Becky wrote:
Sprite, I'm glad you admit that you support abortions even for accidents. It's nice to know that your convenience is more important than human life. I'm sorry, it's not life until 13wks for you. Your vast level of knowledge of fetal embryology has certainly formed the foundation of your reasoning. I must go back to medical school, seems I've forgotten what event occurs at 13wks gestation that would define life. Hope you are in the picket lines at abortion clinics who perform abortions after 13wks, which would be all of them.

And Principessa, if someone dies for a crime they didn't commit, I'm okay with that. Like you said, it's rare. I have faith in our criminal justice system, let it work. Still, the thread had nothing to do with the death penalty. It has to do with contradictory logic. Saying you are against the death penalty because the rare case in which some innocent person may be sentenced to death while saying that it's acceptable for an innocent child be aborted and never given the right to live is contradictory logic.


as i stated in my post, this was my opinion. i can't prove it. to me, life begins when you begin having cognitive thoughts - for me, during the first trimester, the foetus is the joining of an egg and sperm. just as i don't consider either of those to be a human being, i don't, personally, consider the first 13 weeks of a foetus to be life. that is MY opinion. and, for the record, i have had an abortion. it was done 5 weeks after the pregnancy occurred. i was using bc, but it failed. it happens. i was not i a place at my life where i felt i could carry a baby to term. there were also doubts about my health if i tried - it was probably one of the hardest decisions i will ever have to make, and yes, i do question it at times, but i think i made the right one.

not sure why you need to get all in my face - i never once said that you didn't know what you were talking about and YOU were the one who asked that, and i quote:

"Please discuss rationally and treat everyone with respect--no name calling."

i never once doubted your knowledge, or hinted that you didn't know what you were talking about - i suggest you follow my lead, Becky. :)

oh, and for the record, the place i went to, seeing as abortions are legal, did it legally - there are no illegal (after 13 week abortions) performed there. they are gov't sanctioned. and yes, i agree - abortions after 13 weeks shouldn't be performed unless the mother's health is seriously at risk or the pregnancy is a result of incest or rape - those are very extenuatiing circumstances and i would gladly picket any clinic that preformed illegal abortions. that said, i wouldn't verbally and physically assault the scared young girls going there OR the doctors and nurses working there. it would be a peaceful protest - that's my MO.

So, let me get this straight - if you were executed for a crime you didn't commit, or your husband was, or your kid, you'd be ok with that? i'm kind of taken aback - do you really mean that? wow. speechless. btw, it's not as rare as you might think, sadly. Google the West Memphis Three for starters. oh, and don't forget that for every innocent man put to death for something he didn't do, a killer walks free to to kill again.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:23:19 PM

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principessa wrote:


Really? Even if it were a relative, friend, or your partner? You would just say oops...... So you are okay with taking an innocent life after all, despite your argument against abortion. Only in this instance it is a real, living human being. So who is illogical?



Gotcha, so a fetus isn't a real, living human being.

And yes, if someone occasionally dies when they are wrongly convicted of murder, I'm fine with that. I'm definitely not fine with having to support the SOB that just killed my entire family so that they can live out their life in prison. If they can't respect someone else's right to live, why should I respect theirs?

We are not perfect; I can accept that. If you can't, then we should get rid of all medications, because occasionally someone has an anaphylactic reaction or other serious adverse affect and dies. There is a huge difference between making a mistake and intentionally taking someone's life. I can accept mistakes.

sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:27:01 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
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Kinky_Becky wrote:

Here's an idea. How about if the woman is raped, she take the morning after pill. That would end the pregnancy before it even started, as implantation doesn't occur until day 3. Then there's no abortion at all.


For the record, when you've been raped, a lot of logical thought goes out the window. things that might make sense while sitting back in your living room and discussing them in the Think Tank really escape you in the aftermath of sexual assault.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:36:49 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 535,133
Kinky_Becky wrote:
Freakycactus, are you suggesting that the burden of carrying a prodigy of rape inside you constitutes a right to murder? I mean you don't seem to be suggesting that killing the baby isn't wrong, just that the mother's right to her mental faculties supersedes the child's right to live.

Here's an idea. How about if the woman is raped, she take the morning after pill. That would end the pregnancy before it even started, as implantation doesn't occur until day 3. Then there's no abortion at all.

Lets be really clear about this. Democrats love to bring up the rape issue, but it's not really about rape. I don't see any huge support to ban abortion except for cases of rape, incest, or concern for maternal life. No, it's about not taking responsibility for yourself, which is the biggest problem facing this country right now. People don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions. When they screw up, they expect the government to come bale them out. Get pregnant because I didn't take my birth control or because the guy I was trying to trap said no, I'll just go get a free abortion. But keep arguing that you are really just trying to protect the poor rape victims if you want, if that makes you feel better about who you really are. Keep telling yourself it's not a life if that makes you feel better about your decision.


After rape, a lot of women are in shock, reeling from the event, for some of them, the last thing on their mind is the possibility of pregnancy, sometimes they realise it after the fact. There's also the fact that the pill isn't fool-proof and the pregnancy may still progress.

I don't advocate abortion and unless it was a life-threatening situation I can't imagine ever getting one, but it's every woman's individual choice whether or not they should have one. A woman's body is her own and she should have the right to have a say what happens to it. That being said, I believe that a foetus can actually be called a baby after the 3rd-8th week (the point where all the major systems, including the nervous system) are formed and subsequent to that, the baby simply grows and the systems continue to develop).

As for the death penalty, I believe life imprisonment is more effective.
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:42:56 PM

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sprite wrote:


as i stated in my post, this was my opinion. i can't prove it. to me, life begins when you begin having cognitive thoughts - for me, during the first trimester, the foetus is the joining of an egg and sperm. just as i don't consider either of those to be a human being, i don't, personally, consider the first 13 weeks of a foetus to be life. that is MY opinion. and, for the record, i have had an abortion. it was done 5 weeks after the pregnancy occurred. i was using bc, but it failed. it happens. i was not i a place at my life where i felt i could carry a baby to term. there were also doubts about my health if i tried - it was probably one of the hardest decisions i will ever have to make, and yes, i do question it at times, but i think i made the right one.

not sure why you need to get all in my face - i never once said that you didn't know what you were talking about and YOU were the one who asked that, and i quote:

"Please discuss rationally and treat everyone with respect--no name calling."

i never once doubted your knowledge, or hinted that you didn't know what you were talking about - i suggest you follow my lead, Becky. :)

oh, and for the record, the place i went to, seeing as abortions are legal, did it legally - there are no illegal (after 13 week abortions) performed there. they are gov't sanctioned. and yes, i agree - abortions after 13 weeks shouldn't be performed unless the mother's health is seriously at risk or the pregnancy is a result of incest or rape - those are very extenuatiing circumstances and i would gladly picket any clinic that preformed illegal abortions. that said, i wouldn't verbally and physically assault the scared young girls going there OR the doctors and nurses working there. it would be a peaceful protest - that's my MO.

So, let me get this straight - if you were executed for a crime you didn't commit, or your husband was, or your kid, you'd be ok with that? i'm kind of taken aback - do you really mean that? wow. speechless. btw, it's not as rare as you might think, sadly. Google the West Memphis Three for starters. oh, and don't forget that for every innocent man put to death for something he didn't do, a killer walks free to to kill again.



Sprite, I would love to know what age a fetus begins having cognitive thoughts. Again, this isn't name calling. This is challenging you to come up with a rational reason for ending the chance of life. It's coming up with a rational reason for setting a date when you can do so. The Supreme Court chose viability of the fetus which they estimated was 24-26wks. As technology advances, those dates are getting earlier and earlier. Again, I don't believe anyone can rationally define when a life begins. Consider this, a puppy requires you to feed it. You don't want to. Is it okay for you to break it's neck because you don't want to feed it and it doesn't have a mother? A new born baby can't survive without your care, so does that give you the right to abandon it in the woods to die? Of course not. You say cognition apparently defines life. Who can say when a baby has cognitive thought?

Rational thinking okay: "every innocent man put to death for something he didn't do, a killer walks free." This is not rational thinking. Putting and innocent man in prison or to death doesn't change the fact that the innocent one went free. And it is as rare as I think. The number of people in prison who were wrongly convicted is estimated to be about 1 in 2000. That may seem pretty high to you, but to me, that is extremely low. That means there is a 99.95% chance we got right person. Make the criteria stricter and more criminals are released back into the streets.

Yes, it would suck if someone I loved was put to death when they were innocent. It would suck if I found out I had cancer. It sucked when an illegal immigrant who had no business in this country to start with ran over my daughter last year and wasn't even ticketed, much less deported. It's life. Life goes on.

Ruthie
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:06:44 PM

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Kinky_Becky wrote:



Sprite, I would love to know what age a fetus begins having cognitive thoughts.


According to scientific studies, the thalamo-cortical complex that allows us to experience consciousness isn't in place until between the 24th and 28th week of gestation.

The fact that you don't believe that anyone can rationally define when life begins doesn't mean that it can't be rationally defined. Nothing anyone says on this thread is going to have any effect on the things you believe because you haven't a rational reason for believing them. Your instinct tells you that life begins at gestation, so you think it does.

Your belief that it is okay for innocent people to die for crimes that other people commit tells me that you are not pro-life. You are just a trouble making troll.

Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:13:22 PM

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one_winged_angel wrote:


After rape, a lot of women are in shock, reeling from the event, for some of them, the last thing on their mind is the possibility of pregnancy, sometimes they realise it after the fact. There's also the fact that the pill isn't fool-proof and the pregnancy may still progress.

I don't advocate abortion and unless it was a life-threatening situation I can't imagine ever getting one, but it's every woman's individual choice whether or not they should have one. A woman's body is her own and she should have the right to have a say what happens to it. That being said, I believe that a foetus can actually be called a baby after the 3rd-8th week (the point where all the major organs are formed and subsequent to that, the baby simply grows).

As for the death penalty, I believe life imprisonment is more effective.



Saying it's a woman's choice ignores the fact that there is another life inside her. The simple fact is that you are making excuses. The morning after pill doesn't always work. She's reeling and can't think straight. It's a human life and it deserves us thinking rationally about our choices.

Don't want to call it a human life, fine, then discuss rationally why you don't think it is. But throughout this country we have places that perform abortions up to 13wks, others until 19wks, and others up to 24wks. None of those have any rational reason for those decisions.

Then there's the underlying fact that this isn't really about rape. It's estimated that 500 pregnancies a year are a result of rape or incest, yet an estimated 1.2 million abortions are performed per year. It's about a woman's right to choose, just as Sprite said. In those cases, her convenience trumps human life, except that you don't consider it a human life.

So is there a rational reason for these dates, or is it just arbitrarily set? I've heard cognitive thinking, when the hell does that happen. I'm a physician and don't know. I've heard completion of organogenesis, which is by week 9, but that isn't a standard by anyone. And I've heard the first trimester, which is arbitrarily 1/3 of the way through pregnancy. The supreme court ruled viability, but those dates are regressing all the time as technology advances and I just don't understand how that defines life. I mean a baby still needs you after it's born, so relying on you to oxygenate its blood and feed it through the placenta to me is no different than relying on you after it's born to feed it through your breast or a bottle.

As for the death penalty. Again, I never said how I feel about it. Personally, I would support life in prison if prisoners were actually required to support themselves. Make them work. Make the prisons self-sufficient. Make them farm their own food. Make them make a product to sell to pay the guards' salaries. I'm ALL for that.

People seem to take me as some right-wing Bible thumper. I'm not. I don't feel strongly about the death penalty, and I don't feel strongly about abortion. I just want to know if someone who actually DOES feel strongly about it has given it enough thought to really put forth a clear concise argument. Saying I don't think it's a life is not a clear, concise argument.

WellMadeMale
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:20:29 PM

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Kinky_Becky wrote:


Please discuss rationally and treat everyone with respect--no name calling.





If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Ruthie
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:22:56 PM

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Kinky_Becky wrote:


I'm a physician and don't know.


I find that hard to believe. You haven't shown any knowledge of medical science so far.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:25:43 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

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Kinky_Becky wrote:



Sprite, I would love to know what age a fetus begins having cognitive thoughts. Again, this isn't name calling. This is challenging you to come up with a rational reason for ending the chance of life. It's coming up with a rational reason for setting a date when you can do so. The Supreme Court chose viability of the fetus which they estimated was 24-26wks. As technology advances, those dates are getting earlier and earlier. Again, I don't believe anyone can rationally define when a life begins. Consider this, a puppy requires you to feed it. You don't want to. Is it okay for you to break it's neck because you don't want to feed it and it doesn't have a mother? A new born baby can't survive without your care, so does that give you the right to abandon it in the woods to die? Of course not. You say cognition apparently defines life. Who can say when a baby has cognitive thought?


i never claimed to be smart - i am simply going by what the supreme court has decided - they have for more at their disposal to do proper research. they say that life begins at 13 weeks and i have based my opinion on that since it was a subject i became interested in. something backed by people like Ruth, who states:

According to scientific studies, the thalamo-cortical complex that allows us to experience consciousness isn't in place until between the 24th and 28th week of gestation.

there you go, so i am very generously giving you an extra 11 weeks.

as for your puppy story, we're talking apples and oranges here. the puppy has been born. of course it has the right to live, to be cared for to the best of my ability, nor would i ever abandon a baby in the woods to die - i can't ever envision a scenario in which i didn't want to do my best to make sure either the puppy or the human baby didn't have what they need in order to thrive. that said, neither of those have anything to do with the subject at hand which is abortion. if you really want to pursue that line of reasoning, you could probably talk yourself into being against the death penalty as well, so i would advise being careful.


Kinky_Becky wrote:

Yes, it would suck if someone I loved was put to death when they were innocent. It would suck if I found out I had cancer. It sucked when an illegal immigrant who had no business in this country to start with ran over my daughter last year and wasn't even ticketed, much less deported. It's life. Life goes on.


Not when you're dead for a crime you didn't commit, it doesn't.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
Ruthie
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:25:59 PM

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Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,374
Location: United States
Kinky_Becky wrote:




It's estimated that 500 pregnancies a year are a result of rape or incest,


"Writing in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine, Dr. Felicia H. Stewart and Dr. James Trussell have estimated that there are twenty-five thousand rape-related pregnancies each year in the United States."

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/08/the-legitimate-children-
of-rape.html#ixzz2FGRliWG2

Where did you get your number. Oh wait. I know. How far up your ass did you have to reach to pull that number out?
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:26:46 PM

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CoopsRuthie wrote:


According to scientific studies, the thalamo-cortical complex that allows us to experience consciousness isn't in place until between the 24th and 28th week of gestation.




I'm impressed. But the fact that the thalamo-cortical complex is there doesn't mean it is developed enough to work. Oh, and consciousness is the work of the Reticular Activating System, which has nothing to do with cognitive thought, just whether someone is awake or not. Most psychologist would say determination of right and wrong doesn't develop until a child is much older, but actual cognition, who knows.



tazznjazz
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:26:53 PM

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Location: under bright lights, United States
A fetus doesn't feel pain as there's no brain developed in the first stages of pregnancy, hence no pain. The moral issue is when does life begin and most abortions are done before a''life'' as we know it begins. The meeting of two cells is not a life anymore than the cells on your skin you wash off in the shower or the bacteria living in your kitchen sponge. Is it ''murder'' to kill all living cells? The question is when is abortion a taking of life and the answer most come to is after the first trimester.

The death penalty is a whole different issue and non related.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:31:19 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 535,133
Kinky_Becky wrote:



Saying it's a woman's choice ignores the fact that there is another life inside her. The simple fact is that you are making excuses. The morning after pill doesn't always work. She's reeling and can't think straight. It's a human life and it deserves us thinking rationally about our choices.

Don't want to call it a human life, fine, then discuss rationally why you don't think it is. But throughout this country we have places that perform abortions up to 13wks, others until 19wks, and others up to 24wks. None of those have any rational reason for those decisions.

Then there's the underlying fact that this isn't really about rape. It's estimated that 500 pregnancies a year are a result of rape or incest, yet an estimated 1.2 million abortions are performed per year. It's about a woman's right to choose, just as Sprite said. In those cases, her convenience trumps human life, except that you don't consider it a human life.

So is there a rational reason for these dates, or is it just arbitrarily set? I've heard cognitive thinking, when the hell does that happen. I'm a physician and don't know. I've heard completion of organogenesis, which is by week 9, but that isn't a standard by anyone. And I've heard the first trimester, which is arbitrarily 1/3 of the way through pregnancy. The supreme court ruled viability, but those dates are regressing all the time as technology advances and I just don't understand how that defines life. I mean a baby still needs you after it's born, so relying on you to oxygenate its blood and feed it through the placenta to me is no different than relying on you after it's born to feed it through your breast or a bottle.

As for the death penalty. Again, I never said how I feel about it. Personally, I would support life in prison if prisoners were actually required to support themselves. Make them work. Make the prisons self-sufficient. Make them farm their own food. Make them make a product to sell to pay the guards' salaries. I'm ALL for that.

People seem to take me as some right-wing Bible thumper. I'm not. I don't feel strongly about the death penalty, and I don't feel strongly about abortion. I just want to know if someone who actually DOES feel strongly about it has given it enough thought to really put forth a clear concise argument. Saying I don't think it's a life is not a clear, concise argument.


Are you really reading what you write? Do you really expect a person who's just been through a major shock, a traumatic event to be rational. True some people can be rational no matter the situation, but if a woman has just been violated, she has a reason not to be thinking rationally. If you're a physician, you're probably aware of the fact that many of these women contemplate suicide afterwards which means they're not necessarily thinking further into the future than the next day.

I never said that I didn't consider it a human life before those dates, but prior to the 3rd week, the nervous system hasn't been formed and no brain to me means no thoughts or acknowledging pain. To me, there's no foolproof date. That still doesn't negate the fact that it's the woman's body and she has a right to what happens to it. Like I said before, I don't approve of or promote abortion, but I don't judge people who have it done for whatever reason, their choice is theirs.

No one could ever mistake you for a bible thumper after you basically said that you don't care if an innocent person is executed.
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:41:34 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/10/2012
Posts: 695
Location: Home, United States
CoopsRuthie wrote:


"Writing in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine, Dr. Felicia H. Stewart and Dr. James Trussell have estimated that there are twenty-five thousand rape-related pregnancies each year in the United States."

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/08/the-legitimate-children-
of-rape.html#ixzz2FGRliWG2

Where did you get your number. Oh wait. I know. How far up your ass did you have to reach to pull that number out?


Statistics are only as good as the source. When someone has an agenda, they will misrepresent anything. The AJPM data is a perfect example. The US Justice Department has documentation of about 90K completed rapes per year and estimates less than 1/2 get reported. That means 200K completed rapes per year in the US. Of those, about 1/3 are estimated to be either too old or too young to get pregnant. That leaves 133K completed rapes per year on women of child-bearing age, accounting for those that aren't reported. The actual estimated number of rapes that result in pregnancy, based on rates of conception, is about 200-500 per year.

In fact, only about 0.5% of abortions performed each year are reportedly done for rape.

Now you see how statistics can change? Surveys at abortion clinics estimate 25,000. Problem is, surveys are biased. Will the people give an honest reason?

Actual statistics

Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:51:47 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/10/2012
Posts: 695
Location: Home, United States
Have fun

LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:58:21 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Kinky_Becky wrote:
Have fun


With what, the jetwash of your bitchtastic trollery? Most of us probably have other ideas for fun..."doctor".
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