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Former FBI Behavior Analyst says the shooter "knew what he was doing" Don't blame ment Options · View
lafayettemister
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:40:42 PM

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"He wanted to accomplish maximum lethality."

NEWTOWN, Conn.—In stockpiling ammunition, smashing his computers and killing his mother as she slept, Adam Lanza undertook considerable preparation before shooting up an elementary school on Friday, a former FBI profiler said.

"He didn't just snap. This takes a lot of planning," said Mary Ellen O'Toole, who worked for 15 years in the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit where she studied psychopaths and helped capture killers.

O'Toole retired in 2009 and has no direct connection to the case.

Investigators had hoped Lanza's computers would shed some light on what caused him to massacre 20 first-graders and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary, a school he once attended. But the 20-year-old reportedly butchered his computer's hard drives with a hammer or screwdriver, according to ABC News.

Still, the FBI's Computer Analysis and Response Team has been working around the clock on the case and could make progress despite the damage.
"The FBI is pretty good, we can pull stuff off anything," O'Toole said.

O'Toole still assists law enforcement and has written a book titled "Dangerous Instincts." She says the Sandy Hook shootings are worse than any case she has dealt with before.

"I have not seen a case with callousness of this extreme," O'Toole said of Lanza's shooting rampage. "It's off the charts."

Multiple reports have painted Lanza, who lived alone with his divorced mother, as being socially awkward but very intelligent, especially when it came to computers.

O'Toole said the way Lanza carried out his killings suggested a high measure of control, including damaging the computers.

"His computers were very important him. They were a window to his world," O'Toole told Yahoo News. "He didn't want them to survive. He knew that they would give insight into him and didn't want people to have it."

Friends and family of Lanza's mother, 52-year-old Nancy Lanza, have said she dedicated her life to helping her son, who reportedly had Asperger's syndrome or other mental health issues.

O'Toole said people with Asperger's aren't known to commit such violence and that too much is being made about Lanza's mental health.

"It's time we stop putting out the mental health issue as an excuse that he didn't know what he was doing," she said.

Lanza brought three guns into the school, all owned by his mother. He killed his victims with a high-powered semi-automatic rifle, but he also carried two pistols, one of which he used to take his own life. Police say he sprayed hundreds of bullets inside the school and had considerably more left over to use.

Shooting his mother while she slept and preloading numerous rounds of ammunition into the gun clips signals that Lanza was on a mission, O'Toole said.

"He wanted to accomplish maximum lethality," O'Toole said. "He was not out of touch with reality. I think he put some security measures in place so he wouldn't be stopped."
Which unfortunately meant choosing the most helpless of victims, she added.

"If you pick older people you are going to have some blowback," O'Toole said. "He didn't want people to interfere. When people take security measures like that, you know what you are doing is wrong."





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
ByronLord
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:50:16 PM

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The shooter was diagnosed with a personality disorder.

That is a mental illness but not one that provides a defense of insanity. She must know that legal insanity is a small subset of mental health problems.

Depression is a mental health issue but it isn't a defense.

WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:43:43 PM

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A few off the cuff observations about what this O'Toole person is reported to have said.

lafayettemister wrote:
Investigators had hoped Lanza's computers would shed some light on what caused him to massacre 20 first-graders and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary, a school he once attended. But the 20-year-old reportedly butchered his computer's hard drives with a hammer or screwdriver, according to ABC News.

Multiple reports have painted Lanza, who lived alone with his divorced mother, as being socially awkward but very intelligent, especially when it came to computers.

O'Toole said the way Lanza carried out his killings suggested a high measure of control, including damaging the computers.

"His computers were very important him.
They were a window to his world," O'Toole told Yahoo News. "He didn't want them to survive. He knew that they would give insight into him and didn't want people to have it."


Young mister Lanza must not have been as bright as is being stated he was if he used a hammer to smash or another tool to pry apart - a hard drive, in order to make it unreadable. Why not just toss it in a lake or anywhere - where it can't be found? An educated computer geek like him would know exactly how to make his hard drive disappear.

Quote:
O'Toole still assists law enforcement and has written a book titled "Dangerous Instincts." She says the Sandy Hook shootings are worse than any case she has dealt with before.


Never miss an opportunity to plug your own book. This is fairly sociopathic behavior as well. Does an advertisement of her own book provide her with further credentials which her long career at the FBI does not? Anybody can write a book. Hell, I can write incoherent erotica - myself.

Quote:
"It's time we stop putting out the mental health issue as an excuse that he didn't know what he was doing," she said.


Let's have a 15 year career FBI employee with their Behavioral Analysis Unit - throw a blanket upon & smother the 800 pound mental-health gorilla in the corner of the room, too. Pfft, we'll have no discussion about mental health in this country, even though if it proves to be factual that he acted alone...that he was deranged to some degree, and there were other mitigating factors involved.

I've played 1st person shooter video games since 1991. When I've been immersed in any that are particularly involving my eyes and coordination... I have zoned out. Brain chemistry does change. So far I haven't decided to go on a rampage with my shotgun and mow down any demons or space soldiers though. It doesn't affect us all the same way, either. Was this kid even into violent video games? Dunno, haven't heard or read that yet.

Quote:
Lanza brought three guns into the school, all owned by his mother. He killed his victims with a high-powered semi-automatic rifle, but he also carried two pistols, one of which he used to take his own life. Police say he sprayed hundreds of bullets inside the school and had considerably more left over to use.

Shooting his mother while she slept and preloading numerous rounds of ammunition into the gun clips signals that Lanza was on a mission, O'Toole said.


Mister Lanza looks to be a pretty slight framed individual. He doesn't look 1/4th as fit as our own Buz. He carried a 8 or 9 pound Bushmaster, reportedly fired hundreds of rounds of 11.8 gram per cartridge NATO shells, all pre-loaded into hefty clips. I don't know the model of the other two hand guns he was purported to be carrying...3, 4, 5, 6 pounds and their associated cartridges.

Is it unreasonable to guess that he was weighed down with up to 30 or 40 pounds of guns and gear?

When is the last time any of you out of shape people have attempted to move around vigorously with that much weight strapped to your bodies? I'd be hard pressed to do that myself and I'm a fairly fit...computer geek, too. But unless you're used to hauling that kind of stuff around...you're going to get winded quickly.

How old are these photos of Lanza...was he working out with P90X for the last few months getting in good shape to haul around all this armament? In the photos I've seen, he looks like a stiff breeze would blow him down the street.

There is so much we don't know and so many questions our media are not asking. Maybe Buz or Nudie Pants can shed some light on the load-out bulkiness & agility/fitness required - which we're reading and hearing about.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:31:24 PM

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It's interesting how this word 'blame' keeps being used, but only by one side in this and so many other Liberal/Conservative arguments.
As if those who mention 'mental illness' are somehow absolving Lanza from 'Personal Responsibility' - a term often used by Conservatives - which of course they aren't.

Several people on a similar thread said: "You can't blame guns or other inanimate objects," as if anybody was, which of course they aren't. Nobody has ever blamed a gun.

What those who use the word 'blame' seem to be doing is defending themselves from perceived attack. They're saying 'He is responsible."
Which is fine, until you look at the Conservative response to other things, like the Republican's loss in the election. Romney blamed "the 43% accepting hand-outs," for not voting for him, because they'd "been bought," as if lowering taxes on the wealthy isn't buying votes.

Huckabee and others are blaming everything from homosexuality to atheism for the shootings, as they did for Hurricanes Sandy and Katrina, and it goes on and on.

Those who advocate for stricter gun laws, higher taxes, better mental health funding etc. are saying "WE are responsible, all of us. Our society is to blame, and we have to address the issues, now. Together."

Those who rail the most about 'Personal Responsibility' are the ones least likely to accept it.




lafayettemister wrote:

"It's time we stop putting out the mental health issue as an excuse that he didn't know what he was doing," she said.
."


No-one's 'excusing' anything. Obviously Lanza had a mental illness. He shot 26 people.
Those who advocate for stricter gun laws and addressing mental health want to decrease the liklihood of it happening again.
lafayettemister
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:51:30 PM

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Oberon wrote:


No-one's 'excusing' anything. Obviously Lanza had a mental illness. He shot 26 people.
Those who advocate for stricter gun laws and addressing mental health want to decrease the liklihood of it happening again.


I understand your point. Personally, my greater concern is his state of mind. If he indeed did plan this out, even without guns he could have found another way to mass murder.

Here's the thing, as a society it's easier to say "he had mental issues" than to acknowledge the fact that there are monsters living amongst us. This FBI person is more knowledgeable about these things than I am. And if she thinks he knew what he was doing, that he systematically planned it out, knowing right from wrong... I believe her. According to her, his mental illness didn't prevent him from knowing what he was doing and who he chose as targets. We can sleep better at night thinking, "something was wrong with him". Because thinking that this guy was just pure evil, and that anyone around us could be evil in the same way, would be too hard for us to accept.

I blame HIM, that's who I blame. HIM. Maybe his mother was careless with her guns, but HE killed the innocent. HE sought out notoriety via massacre. HE will never get the benefit of the doubt from me for any reason.










When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:19:39 PM

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You misunderstand my point completely.
i know you blame HIM.
That's the problem. Blame and what you perceive as 'blame' in others.
As if blame was a game of volleyball, or tag.

Of course getting rid of every gun in the world won't rid the world of murder.
But it would cut down on it.

Try identifying with the solution rather than assigning blame to someone or some thing OTHER than yourself, like 'evil'.

So he planned it. So he knew what he was doing.
So what?

Addressing problems and taking responsibility is healthy.
Avoiding them is evil.
It's also the opposite of mental health.








lafayettemister wrote:


I understand your point. Personally, my greater concern is his state of mind. If he indeed did plan this out, even without guns he could have found another way to mass murder.

Here's the thing, as a society it's easier to say "he had mental issues" than to acknowledge the fact that there are monsters living amongst us. This FBI person is more knowledgeable about these things than I am. And if she thinks he knew what he was doing, that he systematically planned it out, knowing right from wrong... I believe her. According to her, his mental illness didn't prevent him from knowing what he was doing and who he chose as targets. We can sleep better at night thinking, "something was wrong with him". Because thinking that this guy was just pure evil, and that anyone around us could be evil in the same way, would be too hard for us to accept.

I blame HIM, that's who I blame. HIM. Maybe his mother was careless with her guns, but HE killed the innocent. HE sought out notoriety via massacre. HE will never get the benefit of the doubt from me for any reason.




lafayettemister
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:28:17 PM

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The solution it identifying people who have such rage inside themselves. I don't know what you're talking abotu with volleyball and blame. The solution is fixing what is wrong within our society, not with fixing the symptoms... guns. It's like taking a cough drop for the flu.

Avoiding responsibility isn't evil. Some men avoid being responsible for fathering babies. They're not evil, dumb or misguided yes. Evil no. Evil is planning a massacre. Evil is choosing grade school children because you know they won't be able to defend themselves. Evil is killing your mother in her sleep. Evil is thinking that massacre is a viable option to anything going on inside your head.

Yes, I blame him. He knew what he was doing, it matters. Because there are others out there that would know what they're doing too. That's where the focus needs to be. Finding and interceding before it's too late. I'm assigning blame to him, damn right.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
tazznjazz
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:37:09 PM

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He may have carefully planned his killing spree, but I think anyone would construe that someone capable of cutting down 6 year old children would be considered mentally ill.
freakycactus
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:32:21 PM

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lafayettemister wrote:
The solution it identifying people who have such rage inside themselves. I don't know what you're talking abotu with volleyball and blame. The solution is fixing what is wrong within our society, not with fixing the symptoms... guns. It's like taking a cough drop for the flu.

Avoiding responsibility isn't evil. Some men avoid being responsible for fathering babies. They're not evil, dumb or misguided yes. Evil no. Evil is planning a massacre. Evil is choosing grade school children because you know they won't be able to defend themselves. Evil is killing your mother in her sleep. Evil is thinking that massacre is a viable option to anything going on inside your head.

Yes, I blame him. He knew what he was doing, it matters. Because there are others out there that would know what they're doing too. That's where the focus needs to be. Finding and interceding before it's too late. I'm assigning blame to him, damn right.


I've pinched this from the other thread about the same topic, I feel it bears repeating, especially when people keep trying to avoid the gun issue. I agree that the people are the problem but until a suitable way of finding them and dealing with them before it gets to this stage is found, limiting their choice of weaponry is key. I've highlighted certain sections.

oberon wrote:
New York Times
EDITORIAL | THE GUN CHALLENGE
In Other Countries, Laws Are Strict and Work
Published: December 17, 2012


Like other shootings before it, the Newtown, Conn., tragedy has reawakened America to its national fixation with firearms. No country in the world has more guns per capita, with some 300 million civilian firearms now in circulation, or nearly one for every adult.



Experts from the Harvard School of Public Health, using data from 26 developed countries, have shown that wherever there are more firearms, there are more homicides. In the case of the United States, exponentially more: the American murder rate is roughly 15 times that of other wealthy countries, which have much tougher laws controlling private ownership of guns.

There’s another important difference between this country and the rest of the world. Other nations have suffered similar rampages, but they have reacted quickly to impose new and stricter gun laws.

Australia is an excellent example. In 1996, a “pathetic social misfit,” as a judge described the lone gunman, killed 35 people with a spray of bullets from semiautomatic weapons. Within weeks, the Australian government was working on gun reform laws that banned assault weapons and shotguns, tightened licensing and financed gun amnesty and buyback programs.

At the time, the prime minister, John Howard, said, “We do not want the American disease imported into Australia.” The laws have worked. The American Journal of Law and Economics reported in 2010 that firearm homicides in Australia dropped 59 percent between 1995 and 2006. In the 18 years before the 1996 laws, there were 13 gun massacres resulting in 102 deaths, according to Harvard researchers, with none in that category since.

Similarly, after 16 children and their teacher were killed by a gunman in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, the British government banned all private ownership of automatic weapons and virtually all handguns. Those changes gave Britain some of the toughest gun control laws in the developed world on top of already strict rules. Hours of exhaustive paperwork are required if anyone wants to own even a shotgun or rifle for hunting. The result has been a decline in murders involving firearms.

In Japan, which has very strict laws, only 11 people killed with guns in 2008, compared with 12,000 deaths by firearms that year in the United States — a huge disparity even accounting for the difference in population. As Mayor Michael Bloomberg stressed on Monday while ratcheting up his national antigun campaign, “We are the only industrialized country that has this problem. In the whole world, the only one.”



Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:35:34 PM

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A major marker of mental illness is how an individual deals with responsibility. On one end of the spectrum, Neurotics assume too much responsibility - assuming guilt for things they aren't responsible for, while at the other end, those with Personality Disorders assume too liitle responsibility, refusing to accept responsibility or 'blame' for things they are responsible for. Blaming others is one way of denying responsibility. Psychotics or Sociopaths feel no guilt as they project all blame outword, onto someone or something else.

Assigning blame to others is like a game of volleyball, where the player bats the ball, (or blame), away - or like 'tag', where someone (or something) becomes 'it'.

Shakespear said: "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves."

The title of your post is: 'Don't blame mental illness'.
I am saying that those who talk of mental illness aren't BLAMING it, as if IT was responsible.
I found it interesting that you would think they were, as if you thought those that spoke of mental illness were externalizing it, blaming something abstract.

Then you blame 'evil', something external and abstract.

What I am saying is: "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves."

And taking guns out of the hands of those with Personality Disorders can only be a good thing.








lafayettemister wrote:
The solution it identifying people who have such rage inside themselves. I don't know what you're talking abotu with volleyball and blame. The solution is fixing what is wrong within our society, not with fixing the symptoms... guns. It's like taking a cough drop for the flu.

Avoiding responsibility isn't evil. Some men avoid being responsible for fathering babies. They're not evil, dumb or misguided yes. Evil no. Evil is planning a massacre. Evil is choosing grade school children because you know they won't be able to defend themselves. Evil is killing your mother in her sleep. Evil is thinking that massacre is a viable option to anything going on inside your head.

Yes, I blame him. He knew what he was doing, it matters. Because there are others out there that would know what they're doing too. That's where the focus needs to be. Finding and interceding before it's too late. I'm assigning blame to him, damn right.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:55:25 PM

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personality disorders do not include depression. Personality disorers include schizoid, schizo typical etc and also includes anti social personality. I havent heard which one he was diagnosed with they are not treatable with medication and yes they are aware of what theya are doing most of the time. It still doenst mean he needed mental health help. ted Bundy is the most famous son of same they were serial killers but suffered from personaity disorders. Beethoven was a personality disorder. They can be delusional or at least their perception gets really crossed and they act on impulse. they can plan extensivly obsessive compulsive is also a type of personality disorder and when a person like that gets obsessed with somethng they cannot think of anything else and will see it to an end. Last thing, personality disorders are not an organic disease process they are created and nurtured. the blame comes back to being ours. No those with a pesonality disorder shud not have a gun but most of them usually go undetected they are CONNS. Guns are not the problem ppl are the problem. I do believe that assault weapons shuld be banned there is no reason for a pvt citizen to possess an assault weapon. PERIOD!
keoloke
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012 10:42:51 AM

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Maybe instead of looking into his computer, investigators should look at his file at the drug store to see what kind of medications regimen was he on, if any. I can't think that he wasn't on any prescribed meds.

Choose n Practice Happiness

Life is simple; we are what we eat and what we read. Talk is superfluous.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:32:57 PM

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This may sound like a dumb question, but I'm okay with that. I don't know a whole helluva lot about actual working psychology. Hopefully, someone can answer this in a serious way and not get derailed off onto other crap.

Question: When speaking about mental illness, is there a difference between someone who is "mentally ill" and someone that just can't tell the difference between right and wrong? I ask because I seem to see people saying that he couldn't possibly be mentally ill - look at all the effort he put into covering his tracks. However, if he honestly couldn't see that what he was contemplating was wrong, he still might have the foresight to want to hide his thought processes from interlopers. Guarding his privacy, maybe. Or maybe just cleaning up in an OCD kind of way.

Does the idea that he took those steps to hide his information from whoever would come after him automatically mean that he had no "mental illness"?

DLizze
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:58:27 AM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
Does the idea that he took those steps to hide his information from whoever would come after him automatically mean that he had no "mental illness"?


Like any other piece of circumstantial evidence, that all depends on which side of the axe you wish to grind.
I would strongly suggest that the fact he committed the murders is prima facie evidence of insanity.


What I want to know is, why did the initial police reports say the rifle that is claimed to have done all this killing was found in his vehicle along with a shotgun, and that he was armed with two handguns and plenty of ammunition? It was only AFTER the coroner made his statement that all the wounds were, in his opinion, caused by a rifle, that the story changed to say he used a semi-automatic rifle to commit the murders.

I don't particularly care one way or the other about gun control, since I do not now, nor do I ever intend to, own any firearm made after 1900, but I strongly suspect some "smurkle business" in what the law enforcement authorities (which is to say, "government") are saying. I do not trust them, and I do not trust the reporting sources.



"There's only three tempos: slow, medium and fast. When you get between in the cracks, ain't nuthin' happenin'." Ben Webster
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:40:29 PM

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DLizze wrote:

Like any other piece of circumstantial evidence, that all depends on which side of the axe you wish to grind.
I would strongly suggest that the fact he committed the murders is prima facie evidence of insanity.



This is what I think as well. I'm just wondering why such an issue is being made of his mental wellness. Why is everyone saying, "See! He wasn't crazy!"

DLizze wrote:

What I want to know is, why did the initial police reports say the rifle that is claimed to have done all this killing was found in his vehicle along with a shotgun, and that he was armed with two handguns and plenty of ammunition? It was only AFTER the coroner made his statement that all the wounds were, in his opinion, caused by a rifle, that the story changed to say he used a semi-automatic rifle to commit the murders.

I don't particularly care one way or the other about gun control, since I do not now, nor do I ever intend to, own any firearm made after 1900, but I strongly suspect some "smurkle business" in what the law enforcement authorities (which is to say, "government") are saying. I do not trust them, and I do not trust the reporting sources.



It's not that I don't trust the reporting sources, or the authorities. I just doubt that we're getting the whole story. I believe that the media tends to cherry-pick what news stories they report. Since I don't have that great a background in clinical psychology, I figured I'd ask the question. I'm quite sure someone here knows more about the issue than I do. LOL

Thanks!

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