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2nd amendment vs. the Patriot Act Options · View
tazznjazz
Posted: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:47:15 AM

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Joined: 4/30/2012
Posts: 329
Location: under bright lights, United States
I find it interesting that those that rant and rave about gun control and constitutional protections don't seem to have nearly the same objections to the Patriot Act in regard to basic freedoms being taken away by federal legislation.

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US Constitution (Bill of Rights) US Patriot Act
Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Freedom from unreasonable searches: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
Amendment VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Right to a speedy and public trial: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Freedom of association: To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.
Amendment VI: ... to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Right to legal representation: The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
Amendment I: Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ... Freedom of speech: The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
Amendment VI: ... to be confronted with the witnesses against him ... Right to liberty: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. US citizens (labeled "unlawful combatants") have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.
Dementorkissed
Posted: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:12:11 AM

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Joined: 12/24/2012
Posts: 174
Location: United States
tazznjazz wrote:
I find it interesting that those that rant and rave about gun control and constitutional protections don't seem to have nearly the same objections to the Patriot Act in regard to basic freedoms being taken away by federal legislation.

.


Personally, I feel that the constituion and especially the bill of rights, which has been the chreished document on which the Great Nation has flurished for this long has been totally overlooked, circumvented and quite a few cases ignored.

now it is "We the people vs them the Govt." and they will do whatever they feel like... and yes there is not much we can do about it.

“When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.”
― Helen Keller
LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:29:17 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
tazznjazz wrote:
I find it interesting that those that rant and rave about gun control and constitutional protections don't seem to have nearly the same objections to the Patriot Act in regard to basic freedoms being taken away by federal legislation.



There's a fairly basic and straightforward reason for this apparent contradiction, but it's very political incorrect and borderline racist to put it bluntly. Suffice it to say that when it comes to the Patriot Act, the perception is that the freedoms being curtailed are those of the "others", who must hate freedom. The gun lobby, on the other hand, is appealing to a very different looking crowd, and has convinced them that the federal government is coming after their rights. It's a whole different ballgame when it's "others" whose rights are threatened.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 1:27:15 PM

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The only reason you're not seeing them is because you probably don't frequent any of the multitude of firearms-oriented websites like ar15 dot com and The Firing Line. Many millions of words have been posted in criticism of the subject. The "Tin Foil Hat Brigade" is prominently represented, but trust me, there are thousands of regular people that are now saying, "See? This is precisely WHY we need our 2nd Amendment rights!"

elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012 9:10:06 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,617
Location: Burrowed, Norway
MrNudiePants wrote:
The only reason you're not seeing them is because you probably don't frequent any of the multitude of firearms-oriented websites like ar15 dot com and The Firing Line. Many millions of words have been posted in criticism of the subject. The "Tin Foil Hat Brigade" is prominently represented, but trust me, there are thousands of regular people that are now saying, "See? This is precisely WHY we need our 2nd Amendment rights!"


I don't see the NRA or the congressmen advocating the need for guns using that line of argument. Maybe because they know that it has nothing to do with "protecting" yourself against the vicious and mean federal government.

In the US it's almost impossible to get a full dictatorial government or getting right wing fascist governments, simply due to your two party political system. Add to the fact that republican party needs to become more liberal if they're to get minority voters then you have successfully removed any chance for a Hitler type to run your country.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
loveslegs
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012 10:21:16 AM

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Location: Greece
what gave birth to hitler's third reich (technically at least, because the underlying reasons lay way deepr) was the exact same thing that gave birth to julius ceasar in rome....

a 'back door' in each republic's constitution that allowed one single person to be granted absolute power in certain circumstances; so in my opinion unless such a back door still exists we will not be seeing a similar ruler rise any time soon
LadyX
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:58:25 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
That back door might be there soon.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:13:11 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
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Location: United States
LadyX wrote:
That back door might be there soon.


That "Back Door" has been in place since the country's inception. It's called the Presidential Executive Order. The only thing that keeps it from being used as a dictatorial tool is the idea that Congress can impeach a sitting president for evidence of just about any kind of malfeasance at all. Add a willing Congress with a corrupt President and you get shit like the Patriot Act.

Ruthie
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 4:42:34 PM

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Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,353
Location: United States
LadyX wrote:
That back door might be there soon.


The patriot act allows the president to declare martial law. He can do this by executive order, as MrNudiePants says. The National Security Council is give a great deal of power in the act as well. In the event of an emergency, or whatever whoever is in charge at the time wants to call an emergency, the government can seize control of all transportation, including airports, or course, and highways. The government can seize every hospital, every school and every public facility as well as seizing all financial institutions, schools, hospitals and pretty much anything it wants. This is all there in the bill. They don't need a back door if the front door is wide open.

There are lots of people who will gladly use the Patriot Act as evidence that we need a strong pro-gun interpretation of the second amendment, but under the Patriot Act the government can seize all the weapons too. I'd like to see someone refuse to give up their guns when their house is surrounded by an infantry battalion. An untrained population isn't going to be able to put up much resistance in the event of a military dictatorship.

There is really no good argument for the possession of assault weapons by individuals. I doubt that the framers of the Constitution foresaw a weapon that could kill every child in a classroom without reloading. The second amendment was written at a time when people were using muzzle loaders and no gun fired more than once. I'm pretty sure that Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson would be more appalled at the provisions of the Patriotic act than at attempts to limit deadly weapons.
Dementorkissed
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 10:46:25 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/24/2012
Posts: 174
Location: United States
CoopsRuthie wrote:


I'd like to see someone refuse to give up their guns when their house is surrounded by an infantry battalion.


Very true.. using military on American soil is forbidden under Posse Comitatus Act they have circumvented that as well..

They have Trained, armed and equipped 1000s of the DHS personel with exactly the same weapons the Military uses...

so .. if the front door is not available.. the back door works just fine.

“When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.”
― Helen Keller
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