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Food for thought, desert for discussion: Religion Options · View
Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 4:38:54 AM

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Food for thought, desert for discussion: Why is it that some people feel so STRONGLY about their religious views? if say a strong Hindu believer meets a Strong Christian believer...why is there always this tension between? It's like the word "GOD" will spark a massive fire...hmmm.....
Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 8:22:41 AM

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I would say it's the Sunk Costs Fallacy. People have already spend years investing so much into their religion. If it's not true, that's all wasted, and people would rather keep pumping resources in, hoping it'll be true, then admit it's false, cut their losses, and start a new, more produce, life.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 8:27:14 AM

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There's not always tension, I'm from a large family with a mix of religions and there's never any religious tension when we have reunions. It's just a matter of being able to respect other people's right to be in whichever religion they choose.
clum
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:13:13 AM

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Actually, in my experience, those people who are very religious find a lot more common ground than they would with those without any religious beliefs. I have been able to have much more meaningful and amicable discussion about religion with Christians, Hindus and Muslims than I ever have with non-religious people.

There a mutual respect and understanding between those of different faiths—they get each other and understand why certain things are so important to them. I think if a discussion between two religious people gets terribly heated, it's often because one or both of them have shaky faith and they're really trying to convince themselves by saying it louder and repeatedly. I know that I practice the correct religion to become happy and getting angry with people who don't share my views would be completely contradictory.

We should not shy away from religious debate. In fact, we should embrace it. I love talking about my religion, I want to share it with the world. People of strong faith will be open to reasoned discussion about the meaning of life. They shouldn't be shoving it down your throat or getting worked up.

The lion is most lionlike when he roars.
JohnC
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 10:20:48 AM

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I normally don't get into discussions about religion online, but in person, no problem. I find that in most cases it is not really the religion that causes the issues but the confusion between religion and "salvation", and whether WE should get involved in the salvation of others past the presenting of truths. I personally believe that salvation is between the person and God, religions are a way to help a person walk the correct path and be a better person... but are NOT directly linked to salvation. If something helps you be a better person and is not in opposition to God's wishes, that is GREAT in my opinion. But when you confuse your Religion with what is needed for salvation in general, or think you are more "holy" or "better" than someone else who is also following their chosen Religion... I have a big problem. We see this even within Christian religions/denominations.... as well as Muslim, and others which have more than one school of thought.

I also have an issue when the Religion is about CONTROL as opposed to free will and guiding a person down the right path... willingly.

I will never get into a "what belief is correct" discussion online though. I have my thoughts/beliefs on the matter and know God offers free will and choice. He will judge us each individually for our choices. And being a "good person" is not all that is needed for salvation. There are good people in most all faiths.... as well as BAD. And God (as well as man) will know you by your fruit, not the sign you choose to nail to the tree. And God deals with salvation, man deals with interpersonal interactions between man on earth. Let each deal with their own... we are not God. Heck I think we have enough to worry about and deal with as it is. Others may think differently though (and obviously they do LOL).

I am more concerned about how each person treats each other, not what they think or believe. As long as you are civil and treat me and those around you correctly, what you think in your head or spout in your home is your business. And that is between you and God as well. And MY salvation does not hings on what any man thinks either.

elitfromnorth
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:02:09 AM

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MatthewVett wrote:
I would say it's the Sunk Costs Fallacy. People have already spend years investing so much into their religion. If it's not true, that's all wasted, and people would rather keep pumping resources in, hoping it'll be true, then admit it's false, cut their losses, and start a new, more produce, life.


See what you did there? This is very typical from atheists that they raise above people with faith, speak of themselves as the enlightened ones and better people. In my experience the tension when it comes to people of different faith it's usually instigated by atheists. Like Clum said, I've had no problems with religious discussions with people who share my faith nor people who have different faith from me. It's more the atheists that act condencending and do what they can to subtly insulting the one with faith. They usually prove to be just as tolerant as the radical ones yelling that unbelievers will burn in hell. I like calling them "atheistic jihadist" drunken

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Rembacher
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 12:51:10 PM

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infamous wrote:
Why is it that some people feel so STRONGLY about their religious views?


Why wouldn't they? It would seem kind of silly to live your life in a way you don't fully believe in, wouldn't it? If a Buddhist doesn't believe in the power of meditation, there is no point in him or her trying to achieve inner peace through it.
TheDevilsWeakness
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 1:13:03 PM

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Sharing your faith and shoving it down others throats is a fine line that many people cross in countless ways.
I'm an agnostic (I was atheist but even they were too preachy) and I really hate being told I live a "Christian" lifestyle.
No... I don't. I behave the way I behave because I believe that's how human beings treat each other. Not because someone wrote in a book many, many, many years ago about how to treat your fellow human being.
Now I am quite happy to listen to others tenets and faiths about their religion. It does not bother me in the slightest.
I am not searching for faith but I have no problems learning about other religions because I find it interesting. But I've noticed over the years, many people are quick to condemn others because they don't follow the same path. Or they start to "preach" and that drives me bonkers. I'll be the first to get up and walk away.
I actually enjoy talking with the little old lady (Jehovah's Witness) that pops in once a month with her pamphlets. She usually joins me for a cup of tea and then she's off on her merry way. She's a sweetheart and not pushy in the slightest. I even read her pamphlets. :)
Same as my "Old Boys Coffee Club". All different denominations from Catholic to Baptist to Protestant to Jewish to Hindi. All heads of their church. A very interesting group of men. I loved them all dearly and used to have many discussions with them... even when I was an Atheist.
Respect is the key. And many people today when discussing their religions are sadly lacking that element.

Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 4:10:57 PM

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When it comes to religion I don't care what you think, and you don't need to concern yourself with what i think. Thank you very much.:)
VanGogh
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 7:44:07 PM

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TheDevilsWeakness wrote:

Respect is the key.


A simple statement like this ..... is the golden rule.

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Buz
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 7:57:28 PM

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I believe in personal liberty, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. You should make your own choices. Trying to inhibit other people's freedom is immoral whether it is inhibiting their choice to worship or forcing one's religion on someone. I have seen many athiest zealots just as rabid and 'preachy' as any religious zealot. The way one lives their life is the best example of their beliefs and is the best tool for presenting their point-of-view.

I have written a new poem. It is called 'Long Twisty Woman.'
You can read it at: http://www.lushstories.com/stories/erotic-poems/long-twisty-woman.aspxx
Also, if you wish, check out my co-authored a story with the wonderful DanielleX. It is called 'Focus on Sex.'
You can read it at: http://www.lushstories.com/stories/quickie-sex/focused-on-sex-1.aspx

chileanbean
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:17:11 PM

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Religion is one of those fascinating things that intertwines with alot of other matters in life. It developed into law, ethics, philosophy, etc.
I've also been amazed how religion was one of the first things to be developed in any civilization. Nonetheless i'm not really sure what i am. I attend a catholic school but i'm far from catholic. I prefer to watch from a distance and make note of things that might serve a purpose in some situation. It's easy to see why those people that show up at your house with pamphlets are so passionate. You're given an answer to things that otherwise would be left unanswered (in their case, they might actually just be bored). Things like what's to become of you after death. What do i need to do to be truly happy.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:56:00 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


See what you did there? This is very typical from atheists that they raise above people with faith, speak of themselves as the enlightened ones and better people. In my experience the tension when it comes to people of different faith it's usually instigated by atheists. Like Clum said, I've had no problems with religious discussions with people who share my faith nor people who have different faith from me. It's more the atheists that act condencending and do what they can to subtly insulting the one with faith. They usually prove to be just as tolerant as the radical ones yelling that unbelievers will burn in hell. I like calling them "atheistic jihadist" drunken


I know what I did there. I'm an antitheist and proud of it. Difference is, atheistic jihadists don't bomb anyone. Religious ones do.
EDWolfe
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 10:17:08 PM

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one_winged_angel wrote:
There's not always tension, I'm from a large family with a mix of religions and there's never any religious tension when we have reunions. It's just a matter of being able to respect other people's right to be in whichever religion they choose.


This is the best way to act around people. When I was working at a local convenience store, a then-coworker found out about my religion, which wasn't his, and spent a lot of time talking mine down. He was trying to convince me that I would get eternal punishment if I was wrong, as opposed to him "being reborn as a butterfly," if he was wrong.

After all, there's even Biblical passages that lead me to believe that, as long as people treat each other with dignity and respect, they're doing the right thing.

(I'm intentionally vague about my religion because I consider my faith a well-guarded secret. In fact, I've been guarding it closer since my former coworker tried to preach to me.)
Highwayman
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:42:47 PM

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In the old school, the saying went that "there are two things you don't discuss, religion, and politics."

Well, don't that beat all. Religion, and politics are continuously being discussed, and sometimes in a holistic manner, but that is hard to achieve.

Used to be said that you should not trust anyone over 30. Take heed, question, bitch and moan. Maybe even get called a troll, however, if what you say is from your heart and solid writings, then.....



‎"The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible." --Wilde
adagio_sabadicus
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 1:02:49 AM

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people who dont belive in something are handicapped. im a beliver in 'my God' but not a beliver in organized religion. organized religion is a buisness based on politics and leadership, plus pass the bucket.. the preacher, pastor, revrend, amen screamer or Jim Jones and Tammy Baker should be paid minimum wage. I wonder then if they will lose their religion. If one truly belives in the almighty and i do, then they should not accept anything over and beyond sweet pissy or a little bit of some cock
EDWolfe
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 3:04:33 PM

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adagio wrote:
the preacher, pastor, reverend, amen screamer or Jim Jones and Tammy Baker should be paid minimum wage. I wonder then if they will lose their religion.


There are actually some faiths, and even denominations of larger religions, where clergy are volunteers. When I was going to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the bishop of the congregation I attended had a job outside the church (I think he was a doctor). After I left, I received a call from them asking why I chose not to attend. During the call, they did mention that the then-current bishop was a lawyer.

The faith I follow now is made up more of lay clergy, most of whom have day jobs, and are not necessary in our belief to be present. (We believe that we as followers of our path can petition the Divine directly.) Yes, we do have clergy who focus on following their chosen paths, a lot like nuns and priests of other religions.

When clerics of any faith get rich just from their ministry, then, yes, there is clearly something wrong. But a good percentage of clergy are poor, some even taking a vow of poverty to pursue their faith.
petalpush
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:45:01 AM

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Going back to one of the questions in the original post, on why views lead to such strong tension/strife:

Religion is a truth claim (or a set of). Humans are social beings and when we interact with each other, whether we know it or not, we deal in truth claims.

Easiest way to digest this is looking at a trivial truth claim. I can say "This place has the best bagels ever." You can either agree of disagree---it doesn't matter whether or not you've eaten the bagel yourself, you will counter with some truth claim.

"You're right, this place is the best." Affirmation.
"Nah, this other place has the best bagels." Counter.
"It's good, but best in the whole world?" Skeptic/Realist.
"You're a moron."

And so on. So what's the big deal with religion then? Religion deals with ULTIMATE truth claims. The meaning of life. Life after death. Infinite, eternal salvation. A higher power. Destiny.

In the big picture, no one cares about a truth claim about one place supposedly having the best bagels. Trivial. People will live their life just fine even if they've never went to that place, or even if they never eat a single bagel from anywhere.

The ultimate truth claim however, is so important to humans because from it comes all the other trivial (and maybe not so trivial) claims. How am I going to live my life? Why? How will I treat others? Why? How will I share my knowledge and talents? Why? How will I spread the word about the place I know with the best bagels? Why?

That's my take on why religion is such a strong topic and results in strong discourse. It gets even more tricky and tense.. because even discussing it will lead to more and more truth claims (heck, this whole post is a truth claim).
Dani
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:04:35 PM

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MatthewVett wrote:


I know what I did there. I'm an antitheist and proud of it. Difference is, atheistic jihadists don't bomb anyone. Religious ones do.


Lol. You're just here to fuck shit up, aren't ya? Nice try.



We're tiny. We're toony. We're all a little looney. And in this cartoony, we're invading your TV.

JohnC
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:53:59 PM

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slipperywhenwet2012 wrote:


Lol. You're just here to fuck shit up, aren't ya? Nice try.

Lfunny

adagio_sabadicus
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:20:04 PM

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That is like ask asking, if fish wear a crucifix?
Dani
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:38:06 PM

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adagio wrote:
That is like ask asking, if fish wear a crucifix?


Umm no....no it's not.



We're tiny. We're toony. We're all a little looney. And in this cartoony, we're invading your TV.

nazhinaz
Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:33:20 AM

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chileanbean wrote:
Religion is one of those fascinating things that intertwines with alot of other matters in life. It developed into law, ethics, philosophy, etc.
I've also been amazed how religion was one of the first things to be developed in any civilization. Nonetheless i'm not really sure what i am. I attend a catholic school but i'm far from catholic. I prefer to watch from a distance and make note of things that might serve a purpose in some situation. It's easy to see why those people that show up at your house with pamphlets are so passionate. You're given an answer to things that otherwise would be left unanswered (in their case, they might actually just be bored). Things like what's to become of you after death. What do i need to do to be truly happy.


All organized religons are part of human evolution when mankind hardly knew sources of knowledge.
If we search some oldest links, we find that man worshiped sex organs, mainly female, which procreated his progeny.
But that was about 5000 to 3000 years before Christ. There are some caves in India and even in China which are indicative of that.
So that could be called one of the oldest religions of mankind.
Later, with slightly organized social set up, with villages coming into being and harnessing of animals, arose worship of fire, snake, sun and moon.
Still bigger settlements brought better interaction and social thoughts and pagan and monoistic religions arose.
By then harvesting as major employment had taken its roots in such social set ups.
This brought out organized Kingship which led man to follow one King on earth and one God above.
Ever since the 16th Century when mankind invented PRINTING PRESS, brought a revolution in the sources of knowledge for mankind.
Steam engine was the next turning point which ushered the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
Industrial revolution brought forth the concepts of equality, fraternity and liberty for all, espoused by HOBBS, LOCKE, ROUSEAU, MARX, ENGLES and many others.
These concepts of equality, fraternity and liberty for all smashed the concepts of KINGSHIP on earth and A LORD ABOVE.
Thus evolved the era of human knowledge growing without fear of any retribution; without any RELIGIOUS FEARS.
No More is the ordained concept of SLAUGHTER THOSE WHO BRING FITNA (DISAGRING WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEVES) as espoused by KORAN.
Thats how the societies are moving away from religious thoughts.
Now the new sources of knowledge are pushing man beyond the borders of RELIGION.










Kitanica
Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:11:56 PM

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adagio wrote:
people who dont belive in something are handicapped. im a beliver in 'my God' but not a beliver in organized religion. organized religion is a buisness based on politics and leadership, plus pass the bucket.. the preacher, pastor, revrend, amen screamer or Jim Jones and Tammy Baker should be paid minimum wage. I wonder then if they will lose their religion. If one truly belives in the almighty and i do, then they should not accept anything over and beyond sweet pissy or a little bit of some cock


How am I handicapped? By believing in common sense and tangible objects or concepts that can be supported by evidence? It's actually the blind zealots that are handicapped. If someone chooses to be religious or spiritual that's between them and their deity. Zealots like to push their views on others and follow blindly in a dangerous manner and accept nothing less than absolute compliance with what has been hammered into their brains. I believe in making an educated choice and finding something that works for you. If you accept Christianity have at it and enjoy, if Islam tickles your fancy let your falāh flag fly. It's the zealots that choose to live in ignorance and conflict due to their inability to think beyond their limited world view and try to spread their disease of intolerance to those willing to listen i.e. the westboro baptist church and al qaeda.

Moderation and education are key, the truly handicapped are the extremists that can't accept others and their differing views along with renouncing logic.
nazhinaz
Posted: Thursday, March 14, 2013 6:45:01 AM

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Buz wrote:
I believe in personal liberty, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. You should make your own choices. Trying to inhibit other people's freedom is immoral whether it is inhibiting their choice to worship or forcing one's religion on someone. I have seen many athiest zealots just as rabid and 'preachy' as any religious zealot. The way one lives their life is the best example of their beliefs is the best tool for presenting their point-of-view.


You 100% right.
Every man has the right to freedom of thought, expression and belief.
Lmitation is it should not in any way affect others belief, libert and right to expression.
EDWolfe
Posted: Thursday, March 14, 2013 8:43:01 PM

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Kitanica wrote:

adagio wrote:
people who dont belive in something are handicapped. im a beliver in 'my God' but not a beliver in organized religion. organized religion is a buisness based on politics and leadership, plus pass the bucket.. the preacher, pastor, revrend, amen screamer or Jim Jones and Tammy Baker should be paid minimum wage. I wonder then if they will lose their religion. If one truly belives in the almighty and i do, then they should not accept anything over and beyond sweet pissy or a little bit of some cock

How am I handicapped? By believing in common sense and tangible objects or concepts that can be supported by evidence? It's actually the blind zealots that are handicapped. If someone chooses to be religious or spiritual that's between them and their deity. Zealots like to push their views on others and follow blindly in a dangerous manner and accept nothing less than absolute compliance with what has been hammered into their brains. I believe in making an educated choice and finding something that works for you. If you accept Christianity have at it and enjoy, if Islam tickles your fancy let your falāh flag fly. It's the zealots that choose to live in ignorance and conflict due to their inability to think beyond their limited world view and try to spread their disease of intolerance to those willing to listen i.e. the westboro baptist church and al qaeda.

Moderation and education are key, the truly handicapped are the extremists that can't accept others and their differing views along with renouncing logic.


I don't think adagio meant that as an insulting comment. In fact, your follow-up post indicates that, despite the fact that you don't seem to identify as spiritual, you do believe in concepts like common sense and the tangible world around us.

I do agree that people who are fanatical about their religions do have their issues. In fact, I had to endure a coworker who tried to convert me to his faith. He heard what my faith was and decided not to accept that. The ironic thing is he finished school to become a psychologist. I know I'd never go to see him.
Buz
Posted: Thursday, March 14, 2013 8:59:06 PM

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MatthewVett wrote:


I know what I did there. I'm an antitheist and proud of it. Difference is, atheistic jihadists don't bomb anyone. Religious ones do.


The spirit of that statement is not entirely true (maybe they didn't use bombs). Atheist zealot dictators such as Mao Zedung, Pol Pot, and Joseph Stalin used violent means such as extermination in their attempts to eliminate religion. I would consider that a jihad against freedom of religion, amongst many other things. Anyone, religious, atheist, etc, is capable of misguided zealotry to the extreme.

I believe in moderation, freedom of religion and tolerance of other people's views. Unfortunately someone will always come along that is totally intolerant of other's views and rights, their heart is filled with hate for anyone who believes differently. Hopefully governments will have enforceable laws that protect people's freedoms and promote peace between people of different beliefs.

I have written a new poem. It is called 'Long Twisty Woman.'
You can read it at: http://www.lushstories.com/stories/erotic-poems/long-twisty-woman.aspxx
Also, if you wish, check out my co-authored a story with the wonderful DanielleX. It is called 'Focus on Sex.'
You can read it at: http://www.lushstories.com/stories/quickie-sex/focused-on-sex-1.aspx

Kitanica
Posted: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:10:50 PM

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For edwolfe: (I selected quote but in an edit i lost your phrase so this is easier than copy and paste) Yes I know he didn't intend it to be insulting, mine did come across as such, not intentional though not entirely a mistake. I did find that initial statement astonishing, I can't fathom the idea of not beleiving in a deity as "handicapping" ones self. I'm agnostic, so I'll focus on secular issues until a deity decides to take the time to meet us half way and say hello lol. Until then I side with the team that sends people to space.

I agree with what he said on organized religion. It'a infuriating to see millions of dollars go to waste on something like religion when it's untaxable and goes into the pocket of the conartist preachers who live on private islands with fleets of jets. They should be hunted down and brought to trial, separation of church and state shouldn't apply if your preying on those trying to pray. They put their faith into people who exploit it. That's not church, that's crime. The money would be better off fixing the worlds real problems like famine, disease and poverty.

To buz: the people you mentioned should be charged with crimes against humanity, stalins purges are just as bad as the crusades and inquisitions, if not worse.

In my opinion freedom of religion ends at the point you oppress others, or try to push your beliefs. We have the freedom to practice our religion not to coerce others lol. Religion should be good enough to attract followers by it's own merit not by the noise-holes of it's overly faithful. Also It should be illegal to allow churches to sway voters in elections because of the separation of church and state, I recall seeing pastors on television news broadcasts to vote against Obama. It's sad really that it plays such a large role in politics considering it has no impact on the actual job's performance.

If I wanted to be a witness I'd be one, I don't need people showing up weekly telling me their concerned with my salvation. I need to get a no soliciting sign.

JohnC
Posted: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:42:27 AM

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Kitanica wrote:


If I wanted to be a witness I'd be one, I don't need people showing up weekly telling me their concerned with my salvation. I need to get a no soliciting sign.


I personally have no problem with others trying to witness to me. I believe that either directly, or indirectly, we all should present our faith to others. How we do that may be by direct scripture and "witnessing", or it may be by actions (I prefer that second). But with that said, what does bother me about a great many (not all) who go out specifically to witness to others, is their apparent belief that NO ONE but THEM knows Scripture or of the things they are witnessing to others about.

I used to engage in conversation with them and end up schooling THEM on the things they were trying to present to me (not in a mean way but just in casual conversation, and they found they were simply on the wrong side of the knowledge curve, opposed to where they thought they were); but now I take a completely different approach. What I do now; with a friendly smile and firm but polite voice; is thank them for their concern, but that I already know "x, y, and z" and that I think their time would be better spent, and more productive, talking with people who don't. I wish them a great day and hope it is a productive one.

This ALWAYS gets a smile, friendly hand shake, and off they go feeling good about the encounter. You don't even need to believe what they do, because many times I do not (depending on the group witnessing).


I have to admit though, a NO SOLICITING sign would be nice too. LOL I don't know why I have not gotten one yet.

Kitanica
Posted: Friday, March 15, 2013 2:56:10 PM

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well I want the sign not just for them, but for lawn maintenance offers and girlscouts as well. It's adorable seeing kids not cursing and flipping me off nowadays but I just can't justify spending money on cookies I find disgusting. Instead I donate at the supermarket and hope they skip my house so I don't have to refuse after their walking in the sun. You'd think girlscouts and witnesses would do it on a cloudy day and save themselves from the humid heat lol
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