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Nurses refuses to give CPR to dying woman b/c it's against facility policy Options · View
blondi88
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 4:24:58 AM

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If this 'nurse' was qualified in first aid she is legally obligated, I think that she should be disciplined. If she was not qualified but had training in first aid she is not legally obligated, it is her decision weather to preform CPR, personally as a Nurse myself, I would give CPR. It is my job to preserve life. Maybe she was under qualified and scared?

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Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:05:57 AM

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It's been said before, but I'll say it again. What proof is there that CPR would have saved her?

If she'd performed CPR on that elderly lady, there's a very high chance that she might have injured her, making her death all the more painful and the headlines would have been something along the lines of, "Nurse injures and kills ailing woman." People are too quick to jump up and say this person is wrong or that person is wrong and should have something done to them without knowing all the facts.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:15:11 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. What proof is there that CPR would have saved her?

If she'd performed CPR on that elderly lady, there's a very high chance that she might have injured her, making her death all the more painful and the headlines would have been something along the lines of, "Nurse injures and kills ailing woman." People are too quick to jump up and say this person is wrong or that person is wrong and should have something done to them without knowing all the facts.



There is no proof that it would have worked. But, it's 100% certain the lady was going to die without CPR. If the lady were my mom, I'd be pretty pissed that someone else decided whether or not my mother was going to live or die. It's not the nurse's decision to make, not in this instance. If the lady did not sign a DNR, then to me that says she still intended to live as long as possible, by whatever (most) means possible. CPR is the first line of defense, First Aid. Not like being hooked up to machines for days, weeks, or months. I think the nurse should have done the CPR... get some air in the lungs and some blood moving in the woman's body. Long enough for paramedics to get there and transfer to a hospital for more thorough care.

I don't plan to go down without a fight. If I go down, I expect someone to riverdance on my chest if needed.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:24:37 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:



There is no proof that it would have worked. But, it's 100% certain the lady was going to die without CPR. If the lady were my mom, I'd be pretty pissed that someone else decided whether or not my mother was going to live or die. It's not the nurse's decision to make, not in this instance. If the lady did not sign a DNR, then to me that says she still intended to live as long as possible, by whatever (most) means possible. CPR is the first line of defense, First Aid. Not like being hooked up to machines for days, weeks, or months. I think the nurse should have done the CPR... get some air in the lungs and some blood moving in the woman's body. Long enough for paramedics to get there and transfer to a hospital for more thorough care.

I don't plan to go down without a fight. If I go down, I expect someone to riverdance on my chest if needed.


Riverdance on your chest if you're an 80+ year old woman, possibly with osteoporosis? That could have damaged if not broken her ribs which could have gone on to cause even more damage.

The daughter was fine with her mom being there and whoever signed the papers for the woman to be in the facility was the one who decided that CPR should not have been performed since it's part of the place's policy.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:36:24 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:


Riverdance on your chest if you're an 80+ year old woman, possibly with osteoporosis? That could have damaged if not broken her ribs which could have gone on to cause even more damage.

The daughter was fine with her mom being there and whoever signed the papers for the woman to be in the facility was the one who decided that CPR should not have been performed since it's part of the place's policy.


I'd prefer a few broken ribs over death.

I'm curious to see more from the woman's family. Did she have more than one child, and if so what do they think. As others have said, we need more info. Maybe this was the only facility in their area that they could afford, so they had to accept this policy because they had no other option? I don't know.







When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40:53 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


I'd prefer a few broken ribs over death.

I'm curious to see more from the woman's family. Did she have more than one child, and if so what do they think. As others have said, we need more info. Maybe this was the only facility in their area that they could afford, so they had to accept this policy because they had no other option? I don't know.



Like I said earlier, there's no proof that CPR would have saved her. And a few broken ribs with ongoing cpr could have lead to punctured lungs, liver, heart damage etc, resulting in either a quick or slow, but definately painful death.

And I do agree and have said before that we don't have all the facts so all the fingerpointing is pointless.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:46:06 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:


Like I said earlier, there's no proof that CPR would have saved her. And a few broken ribs with ongoing cpr could have lead to punctured lungs, liver, heart damage etc, resulting in either a quick or slow, but definately painful death.

And I do agree and have said before that we don't have all the facts so all the fingerpointing is pointless.



There's no proof that CPR would save anyone, it rarely works.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:53:21 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:



There's no proof that CPR would save anyone, it rarely works.


I'm going to guess you're being sarcastic here since you've been pushing for CPR, but that's actually true, espeically in the elderly population. Most studies put the survival rate after CPR in the elderly at less than 5 % with the survivors being generally healthy people with minor health issues, (if she was in a facility, I'm guessing she wasn't exactly the picture of health).

And even in younger people, it's 2-30% effective when administered outside of a hospital with the rate depending on several factors like the person's health conditions, the reason the CPR was administered in the first place, technique used, etc. Which is probably why the place had the policy in the first place.
LadyX
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:55:43 AM

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blondi88 wrote:
If this 'nurse' was qualified in first aid she is legally obligated, I think that she should be disciplined. If she was not qualified but had training in first aid she is not legally obligated, it is her decision weather to preform CPR, personally as a Nurse myself, I would give CPR. It is my job to preserve life. Maybe she was under qualified and scared?


None of that matters. Her employer forbid her from performing CPR per policy. The family and patient were informed of this when she was admitted, and every employee is obviously made aware of that too. So we may not like the policy, but it's stupid to criticize the nurse at this point. Had she performed CPR, she would have risked termination. We might then say that, legally speaking, she'd have a hell of a case for wrongful termination, but practically speaking, none of that means anything in the moment. Probably foremost in her mind in that moment is the roof over her head, the food she can afford with said job, and access to insurance. Even more so if she has children or dependents.

I know it feels good to mount the high horse and say she should've done more, and is a terrible person that should be jailed, or whatever, but the issue ( to the extent that there is one) is with the facility itself. The person on the phone with 911 did her job as it was assigned to her. We can hate that all we want.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 8:06:16 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:


Like I said earlier, there's no proof that CPR would have saved her. And a few broken ribs with ongoing cpr could have lead to punctured lungs, liver, heart damage etc, resulting in either a quick or slow, but definately painful death.

And I do agree and have said before that we don't have all the facts so all the fingerpointing is pointless.


You were saying there was no or little point doing CPR because it may not have saved her life. That's always the case with CPR, should we stop using it altogether because the results are so low? I understand it was her job, and she was told not to do it. I still think that was inhumane....

LadyX wrote:


None of that matters. Her employer forbid her from performing CPR per policy. The family and patient were informed of this when she was admitted, and every employee is obviously made aware of that too. So we may not like the policy, but it's stupid to criticize the nurse at this point. Had she performed CPR, she would have risked termination. We might then say that, legally speaking, she'd have a hell of a case for wrongful termination, but practically speaking, none of that means anything in the moment. Probably foremost in her mind in that moment is the roof over her head, the food she can afford with said job, and access to insurance. Even more so if she has children or dependents.

I know it feels good to mount the high horse and say she should've done more, and is a terrible person that should be jailed, or whatever, but the issue ( to the extent that there is one) is with the facility itself. The person on the phone with 911 did her job as it was assigned to her. We can hate that all we want.


Way too many atrocities and tragedies, both globally in military settings and individually in normal society, have been committed and defended by "I was just following orders." At some point our own humanity should kick in. I realize the lady was old, but it takes a specially jaded person to sit idly by and watch someone die. Especially knowing you have the capability of helping, even if just a little. If I had been in the nurse's shoes, job be damned, I'd have lent aid.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 8:15:29 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


You were saying there was no or little point doing CPR because it may not have saved her life. That's always the case with CPR, should we stop using it altogether because the results are so low? I understand it was her job, and she was told not to do it. I still think that was inhumane.....


I used to work in an ER right next to a nursing home, as soon as anything happened to an elderly person, they'd bring them right in. CPR was never performed on any of them, as soon as they came in, if they weren't breathing, they were instantly given oxygen or intubated depending on the case. The Dr. in charge of the ER had seen too many injuries happen with CPR for him to allow it on the elderly in his ER. I feel like a broken record here, but I'll still say it again, would injuring that old woman have been more humane than what the nurse did?

In the case of a young person who suddenly stops breathing or almost drowns, CPR is more effective, but anything involving the elderly is always tricky.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:30:00 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:


I used to work in an ER right next to a nursing home, as soon as anything happened to an elderly person, they'd bring them right in. CPR was never performed on any of them, as soon as they came in, if they weren't breathing, they were instantly given oxygen or intubated depending on the case. The Dr. in charge of the ER had seen too many injuries happen with CPR for him to allow it on the elderly in his ER. I feel like a broken record here, but I'll still say it again, would injuring that old woman have been more humane than what the nurse did?

In the case of a young person who suddenly stops breathing or almost drowns, CPR is more effective, but anything involving the elderly is always tricky.


Totally agree with everything you've said in this thread.

If I was in the same situation as that elderly person, I would probably prefer to wait for ER to assess the situation as well, even if I didn't want to have a blanket DNR on my file. I think a lot of people who are creeping towards their nineties would feel the same.

This case is way overblown by the media. Everyone wants to jail the 'nurse', sue the facility, raise hell! And in the meantime, the family of this 87 yr old is totally fine with how things were handled. Probably because they knew the policies in place and agreed with them.

By all accounts, this old woman's body was shutting down and she was passing peacefully. She had lived a long life. And yet society still feels like we need to squeeze every last ounce of breath out of her. Break her ribs! intubate! If only she could live just a few more months strapped to a hospital bed on machines and ventilators... "life is valuable"....

This has gotten mileage in the media because of the frantic 911 operator. I'm sure she's not the first woman in that facility (or ones like it) to call 911 and opt to wait for assistance instead of performing CPR on a fragile senior citizen. And I'm sure *those* families haven't been rushing to sue over it either.


LadyX
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:35:46 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


Way too many atrocities and tragedies, both globally in military settings and individually in normal society, have been committed and defended by "I was just following orders." At some point our own humanity should kick in. I realize the lady was old, but it takes a specially jaded person to sit idly by and watch someone die. Especially knowing you have the capability of helping, even if just a little. If I had been in the nurse's shoes, job be damned, I'd have lent aid.


That's honorable of you. I'll be honest, if I was living paycheck to paycheck, without other equally lucrative job opportunities currently in my hip pocket, and had to support my child and possibly others, keep him in school and with steady health coverage, then I think I would've done exactly what my work policy asks me to do. Maybe that makes me inhumane, or callous, but I can live with that a whole lot better than if I'd decided to play hero, gotten fired, had to look for another job with no safety net, go to the food bank, apply for welfare, and then hope my explanation for my termination is met with some empathy from future employers, etc. And oh by the way, the lady might not have lived anyway, then there's that. We're not talking about a situation where somebody's drowning and we refuse to hold out anything for them to grab onto.

I'll let people like you jump in and say 'damn the torpedos'; I'm willing to bet that the lady's circumstances were a lot closer to what I described above than just some selfish monster who chose to hide behind a policy when she didn't have to.
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:41:28 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


Totally agree with everything you've said in this thread.

If I was in the same situation as that elderly person, I would probably prefer to wait for ER to assess the situation as well, even if I didn't want to have a blanket DNR on my file. I think a lot of people who are creeping towards their nineties would feel the same.

This case is way overblown by the media. Everyone wants to jail the 'nurse', sue the facility, raise hell! And in the meantime, the family of this 87 yr old is totally fine with how things were handled. Probably because they knew the policies in place and agreed with them.

By all accounts, this old woman's body was shutting down and she was passing peacefully. She had lived a long life. And yet society still feels like we need to squeeze every last ounce of breath out of her. Break her ribs! intubate! If only she could live just a few more months strapped to a hospital bed on machines and ventilators... "life is valuable"....

This has gotten mileage in the media because of the frantic 911 operator. I'm sure she's not the first woman in that facility (or ones like it) to call 911 and opt to wait for assistance instead of performing CPR on a fragile senior citizen. And I'm sure *those* families haven't been rushing to sue over it either.


Exactly!
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:52:20 AM

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LadyX wrote:


That's honorable of you. I'll be honest, if I was living paycheck to paycheck, without other equally lucrative job opportunities currently in my hip pocket, and had to support my child and possibly others, keep him in school and with steady health coverage, then I think I would've done exactly what my work policy asks me to do. Maybe that makes me inhumane, or callous, but I can live with that a whole lot better than if I'd decided to play hero, gotten fired, had to look for another job with no safety net, go to the food bank, apply for welfare, and then hope my explanation for my termination is met with some empathy from future employers, etc. And oh by the way, the lady might not have lived anyway, then there's that. We're not talking about a situation where somebody's drowning and we refuse to hold out anything for them to grab onto.

I'll let people like you jump in and say 'damn the torpedos'; I'm willing to be that the lady's circumstances were a lot closer to what I described above than just some selfish monster who chose to hide behind a policy when she didn't have to.


So if she is a registered nurse, makes good money, has a husband with a good paying job, and doesn't have to worry about her next paycheck, or health care, or does have a safety net... she'd been more likely and should have helped? Her personal situation doesn't change any of the points of the incident. And I think most potential employers would side with her in this case.

I never said she was a monster, never said she should be charged with a crime. Personally, I think she made the wrong choice. Whatever a person's moral compass decides between right and wrong, is always right or wrong. It doesn't become more or less right/wrong dependant on the persons present circumstances.

edit... the family is content with how things went, if they're ok with it it's no one else's concern. all i'm saying is that in her shoes, i'd have done cpr





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
LadyX
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 10:09:01 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


So if she is a registered nurse, makes good money, has a husband with a good paying job, and doesn't have to worry about her next paycheck, or health care, or does have a safety net... she'd been more likely and should have helped? Her personal situation doesn't change any of the points of the incident.


I wouldn't say "should have helped" but the circumstances would absolutely be different. Her personal situation doesn't change the incident but I think it makes a hell of a lot of difference, potentially at least, in how she reacts. All of us who aren't business owners are at least somewhat subordinate to our employers. They have leverage. If we as individuals don't have any personal wealth or connections, both of which give us options beyond the current paycheck, then they have much more leverage than normal. Employees get exploited by employers all the time because of this common equation. Yes, people can go work elsewhere, but that's easier said than done with all the factors I've mentioned before (kids, housing, insurance, education, daycare, lousy employment market). It absolutely makes a difference.
Quote:

And I think most potential employers would side with her in this case.



Maybe so, but in practice, who wants to take that chance? People like you do, perhaps, and again- good for you to jump in and do what you think's necessary. But if it's me, keeping my job and food on the table is the most necessary duty of all. So shoot me (or refuse to render CPR aid? evil4 ).
LOVES4PLAY
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:22:38 PM

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Having reached my 70th birthday 9 /2012,... I feel that Ive had a rich & rewarding life, Am looking forward to many more..However should something destroy my health,to the point that I could no longer function.. Then yes ":DNR, & should A nurse or hospital staff member do so against my wishes, Then I would hope that My son would take them to court..

Having said that ,I feel the nurse responded correctly.. Joel
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 3:29:15 PM

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lambdavi wrote:


I disagree. Anybody's right to privacy is never as strong as the right to live. If you disagree to this statement, go out, get mugged, stabbed and shot, then see whether you want the 911 operator to limit his activities to dispatching EMS onsite or whether you expect him to ask questions in order to determine your state of urgency and thus your priority on the plethora of 911 calls in any medium-large city.

My wife is a doctor, a GP (General Practitioner, aka Family Doctor). She cannot refuse to visit a neighbor, if critical, even if said neighbor is not officially one of her patients.
It's a crime and she would be arrested for that.

I am aghast that an old people's home (or whatever) has a blanket DNR policy, it should not have been allowed to operate by the local authorities because it is a breach on the individual's right to live.
De facto, it should be grounds for charges of manslaughter. As for the nurse, she deserves two broken legs and two broken arms, left out in a field, then let her sort herself out.
As fot the resort manager, buried neck deep in a field with his face smeared in honey.
Don't we all love a sweet death ?
violent3
Like you said, your wife is a Doctor, i would hope she would be eager to save lives. I've had cpr certification and i'm not obligated to perform cpr. If i choose to perform i'm then committed to it and cannot stop untill relieved or whatever. But, if i dont' feel comfortable with providing cpr for whatever reason i do not have to.

If you do cpr on an elder person with osteoporosis in thier ribs, it's likeley you're gonna do more harm than good.
llghant
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:18:15 PM

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I think the thing a person can be sued for should be examined and as for the nurse, "Why would you even become a nurse if not to help people? " Sue the Shit out of whoever made it possible to sue a person for saving your life. So what if your rob is cracked? Bitch, you are alive because I refused to be afraid of the bullshot lawsuits and did the right thing which was to save your ass!!"

Straight Honesty
Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:29:08 PM

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Edited: Because it's all already been said.
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