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Help...I've been arrested by the grammar police Options · View
Dirty_D
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:42:06 PM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,217
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
Sweetaboo wrote:


Exactly. I meant no disrespect to the editors whatsoever. It truly was an attempt to get some help with my story, and I ended up getting the help I needed. The corrections were made and the story has been published. I can't thank one_winged_angel and naughtynurse enough for their assistance.

So there is no need to turn this into a shouting match. All is good.


You are very welcome. There isn't a verifier who won't help those who truly wish for help. We are here to improve the quality of work.

That said, we are not here to DO the editing for you. Our goal is always to help you understand why so that you can do it yourself!




Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:47:48 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
naughtynurse wrote:


You are very welcome. There isn't a verifier who won't help those who truly wish for help. We are here to improve the quality of work.

That said, we are not here to DO the editing for you. Our goal is always to help you understand why so that you can do it yourself!



Yep, that's why we're called verifiers and not editors.
Shylass
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:13:13 PM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,596
Location: Trumpton, United Kingdom
There are certain standards that Lush adheres to as a site. Lush is known for good quality, and there is a reason for that. People have a choice about whether they want to submit here and adhere to those guidelines, or not.

We see some utter dross cross our paths, as well as some spectacular work. For me, as a verifier, it's all about the author's attitude. Their story might be awful, but if they have a genuine desire to have their work read and scored, I feel that it's reasonable to expect them to want it to be in as good condition as possible. If, that is, they have any pride in it.

We can't be good at everything, because other people would feel inferior. But if we want to be good at a craft, particularly if it does not come naturally, we have to work at it. We can take joy in the results of producing something that others can enjoy. Even if they don't enjoy it, we can still be proud of ourselves for working hard.

But there is pride, and there is arrogance. I regularly go out of my way to help writers who struggle. I don't care about their schooling or ability to spell correctly, or stick an exclamation mark in the right place. I care about their desire to have their story read as well as possible. Time allowing, I often edit work for people even before they hit the queue for verification. But those struggling authors have earned my time, and more importantly, my respect. I also shout at them for bad habits, and I have seen them improve. I respect them even more for that.

Attitude is everything. I've got no time for people who live up their own bottoms, but I have all the time I can find for somebody who wants to work hard, and is humble about it.



Ut incepit fidelis, sic permanet.

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hotgirluk26
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 3:02:29 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/15/2013
Posts: 125
Location: Greater Manchester, United Kingdom
I just posted this in another forum section but I think it belongs in this thread.
My first effort was wonderful, or so I thought. It got rejected several times before I resorted to reading the guidelines and the advice the moderators were sending me. (So, I am a stubborn bitch) Now I have to admit that the first story was not good, and what is more, I now know why it was rejected and agree that it should have been rejected.
I cannot thank the moderators enough for their time and patience. As a result of the advice, from them and from reading the writers' forum posts, the next story I submitted was published after only one rejection and that was over a single sentence which came close to breaching a site rule. The next was published (yesterday) with NO rejections or editing needed.
Thanks sincerely.
Shylass
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:42:19 AM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,596
Location: Trumpton, United Kingdom
hotgirluk26 wrote:
I just posted this in another forum section but I think it belongs in this thread.
My first effort was wonderful, or so I thought. It got rejected several times before I resorted to reading the guidelines and the advice the moderators were sending me. (So, I am a stubborn bitch) Now I have to admit that the first story was not good, and what is more, I now know why it was rejected and agree that it should have been rejected.
I cannot thank the moderators enough for their time and patience. As a result of the advice, from them and from reading the writers' forum posts, the next story I submitted was published after only one rejection and that was over a single sentence which came close to breaching a site rule. The next was published (yesterday) with NO rejections or editing needed.
Thanks sincerely.



Hugs This is what makes being a verifier worth it. Now you've found what needed to be done, and made use of the resources for their rightful purpose, you can learn these things as you go along. Then they will become habits, and eventually, you won't have to think twice about them.

Thank you so much for sharing this here. We know it can be frustrating, but it's how we deal with it that shows our character, and, indeed, whether we put our all into our writing. Given a choice, I'd take a hard-working humble person's story over an arrogant lazy person's any day. Hugs






Ut incepit fidelis, sic permanet.

***
********************************CLICK THE BANNERS TO BUY THESE WILLY-STIFFENING BOOKS!********************************
deviantlover
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 8:09:29 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 2/25/2011
Posts: 14
Location: United Kingdom
I have had stories rejected for grammar reasons when there was nothing wrong with it, except that I was using English grammar rules and not American. On the rejection, the person checking my story was American and didn't like how I constructed my sentences. When I challenged her, she threw her dummy from the pram and banned me from the site for 14 days. Not a very adult thing to do in my opinion. I did complain to the site but received no joy, much as I expected. 15 days later I re-posted the story, which this time was apparently checked by someone who understands English grammar the way we Brits use it and the story was duly published with no problem.
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 8:44:27 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
deviantlover wrote:
I have had stories rejected for grammar reasons when there was nothing wrong with it, except that I was using English grammar rules and not American. On the rejection, the person checking my story was American and didn't like how I constructed my sentences. When I challenged her, she threw her dummy from the pram and banned me from the site for 14 days. Not a very adult thing to do in my opinion. I did complain to the site but received no joy, much as I expected. 15 days later I re-posted the story, which this time was apparently checked by someone who understands English grammar the way we Brits use it and the story was duly published with no problem.


What exactly is English grammar? I haven't worked on any of your stories, but I'm a little sick of people asking me where I'm from when I return one of their stories to them. I'm not from there, but I did go to school under the British system. I'm aware of the slight differences, but some authors seem to think that they can use it as an excuse to defend mistakes that are wrong no matter what point of view you look at it from.

I've seen authors try to claim spelling mistakes were English Spelling, things like: frekey (for freaky) or candom (for condom) or dilicious (for delicious) . That's not a feature of where they're from, that's just a poor excuse for laziness.

Our verifiers are from all over the world, not just from America.
Sweetaboo
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 8:46:49 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 3/9/2013
Posts: 42
deviantlover wrote:
I have had stories rejected for grammar reasons when there was nothing wrong with it, except that I was using English grammar rules and not American. On the rejection, the person checking my story was American and didn't like how I constructed my sentences. When I challenged her, she threw her dummy from the pram and banned me from the site for 14 days. Not a very adult thing to do in my opinion. I did complain to the site but received no joy, much as I expected. 15 days later I re-posted the story, which this time was apparently checked by someone who understands English grammar the way we Brits use it and the story was duly published with no problem.


I can definitely see where that's a problem. Americans live in a bubble and tend to think that the world ends at the coasts. I do think the verifiers should be accommodating of British spelling and grammar, which varies from American spelling and grammar, but is no less proper.
Guest
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:04:59 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
Sweetaboo wrote:


I can definitely see where that's a problem. Americans live in a bubble and tend to think that the world ends at the coasts. I do think the verifiers should be accommodating of British spelling and grammar, which varies from American spelling and grammar, but is no less proper.


Like I said above, our verifiers are from all over the world, not only America, so that really isn't a problem. Also, our American verifiers are aware of and accommodating of British variations of spelling so your generalization is not a fair one.
Ravyn
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 2:53:50 PM

Rank: Cock Connoisseur

Joined: 4/26/2010
Posts: 2,090
Location: Bend, United States
Smoothtalkin_wolf wrote:
hmmmmmmmmmmm I am wondering If the grammar police would prefer to be called "Grammar Nazi". bootyshake


That is not even funny. Careful with the terms you throw around on here, you never know who it might hit the wrong way :)

principessa
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:00:47 PM

Rank: Sophisticate

Joined: 8/23/2011
Posts: 4,306
Location: Canada
There are 1637 pages of stories to read on Lush, with twenty stories/poems on each page. That is over 32,000 stories that have been read and edited and improved by volunteer story moderators over the four or five years this site has been available.

Perhaps the bar has been set higher than it was a few years ago, but that means that you all are reading more literate stories. Moderators offer advice and resources for those who need help to meet an acceptable standard of spelling and grammar. We are not critics and do not judge the content of the stories and poetry other than to insure that it complies with Lush guidelines (e.g. underage sex). Deciding on the merit of work is up to the readers.

I am really dismayed that this work is taken for granted. It seems that some writers feel entitled to have editing services to clean up their stories for them or deny that there are any issues if they are advised to do the work themselves. I remember a story that was accompanied by a note from the writer asking that we excuse the mess her story was in as it was just a first draft.

Please understand that we do this to improve your work and its literacy and so that Lush remains the best site of its kind. Perhaps a thank you after you have been helped or your story is posted may be too much to hope for, but the complaints that I have read here from some are really inappropriate.

Guest
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:05:45 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
principessa wrote:
There are 1637 pages of stories to read on Lush, with twenty stories/poems on each page. That is over 32,000 stories that have been read and edited and improved by volunteer story moderators over the four or five years this site has been available.



And that's not counting those that have been rejected, more than half of them for breaking the guidelines in very disturbing ways.
Buz
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 8:55:13 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,830
Location: Atlanta, United States
Sweetaboo wrote:


I can definitely see where that's a problem. Americans live in a bubble and tend to think that the world ends at the coasts. I do think the verifiers should be accommodating of British spelling and grammar, which varies from American spelling and grammar, but is no less proper.


I hate to burst your bubble, but there may be more story verifiers total from the UK, Ireland, Canada, and Australia than there are from the USA. As far as American vs. British grammar that is news to me. Proper grammar is the same. We are familiar with any subtle differences such as periods and commas being either inside or outside the quotation marks in dialogue because we discuss such things in order to be better verifiers. There are spelling differences of certain words but we are all familiar with those.

We are just volunteers working hard to help make this website work better because we care very much about Lushstories.com and the Lushstories community.

If any of you have any questions about getting your stories posted or would like any help just contact any of the story verifiers. We are glad to help.

WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 10:08:39 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,301
Location: Cakeland, United States
MatthewVett wrote:


+1 billion. I agree with this completely. Whenever people complain about how other people take grammar too seriously, all I hear is, "I suck at grammar and can't be bothered to educate myself." It's like talking to someone and hearing them say, "So I got arrested by the traffic police just because I blew through a red light and ran over a nun. Geez, some people..." The rules are pretty simple, it's easy to find someone to help out, and your reader will have a much better experience if you write properly. It's incredibly jarring when someone breaks the rules, and it ruins my immersion in a story.


Walls of text come in all sizes.

Paragraph breaking is appreciated. Even if it is just one sentence, which veers in a slightly different direction from the sentence previous to it.

Dialogue needs to be broken apart, with the proper and consistent use of punctuation marks. Doing so will indicate which characters are which in the mind of the audience.

Delineation is crucial to comprehension.

"I'm typing from a smartphone, so fuck off."

"So, you're a right lazy bastidge too?"

"Arsefuckinghole!"



If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Coco
Posted: Thursday, March 28, 2013 7:47:28 PM

Rank: Story Lover

Joined: 7/22/2011
Posts: 4,443
Location: Fantasy City, United States
WellMadeMale
Posted: Thursday, March 28, 2013 8:55:10 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,301
Location: Cakeland, United States
deviantlover wrote:
I have had stories rejected for grammar reasons when there was nothing wrong with it, except that I was using English grammar rules and not American. On the rejection, the person checking my story was American and didn't like how I constructed my sentences. When I challenged her, she threw her dummy from the pram and banned me from the site for 14 days. Not a very adult thing to do in my opinion. I did complain to the site but received no joy, much as I expected. 15 days later I re-posted the story, which this time was apparently checked by someone who understands English grammar the way we Brits use it and the story was duly published with no problem.


Sweetaboo wrote:
I can definitely see where that's a problem. Americans live in a bubble and tend to think that the world ends at the coasts. I do think the verifiers should be accommodating of British spelling and grammar, which varies from American spelling and grammar, but is no less proper.


Both of you are describing situations which do not occur at Lush Stories. Apparently these are amongst the reasons you both have chosen to come here and submit your stories for publication.

You made a wise choice.

The owner of LushStories is not an American, but I lurve her anyway. lovestory

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
principessa
Posted: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:07:54 AM

Rank: Sophisticate

Joined: 8/23/2011
Posts: 4,306
Location: Canada
As Buz said above, there is no such thing as British grammar and American grammar. There are one or two differences in the use of punctuation but that is about it. Of course, there are differences in spelling and some words (e.g. lift/elevator), and both are acceptable here.

Writers who assert that UK and US grammar are entirely different are incorrect. They seem to be looking for a reason not to accept that they are making mistakes and that these have been pointed out to them. There is such a thing as standard English usage that applies everywhere. The story moderators are from numerous places in the English-speaking world and understand both the similarities and differences in usage among them.

When you reach the level of Margaret Atwood or Martin Amis or some other respected writer, you can have a style. Until then, the standard rules of grammar apply.



clum
Posted: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:13:07 AM

Rank: Clumeleon

Joined: 5/13/2011
Posts: 4,601
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
I looked into the difference between British English and American English a little. From what I can tell, almost all of the differences are to do with vocabulary, with a few related to punctuation.

Sure, Brits might turn a phrase a bit differently from a Yank, and the colonials have their own way of saying certain things, too. However, English is still English the world over and if it doesn't make sense in American English then you can bet your sweet ass it doesn't make sense in British English either.

Every day is a school day.
Liz
Posted: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:31:47 AM

Rank: Scarlet Seductress

Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 4,682
Location: In the sweet shop, United Kingdom
clum wrote:
I looked into the difference between British English and American English a little. From what I can tell, almost all of the differences are to do with vocabulary, with a few related to punctuation.

Sure, Brits might turn a phrase a bit differently from a Yank, and the colonials have their own way of saying certains things, too. However, English is still English the world over and if it doesn't make sense in American English then you can bet your sweet ass it doesn't make sense in British English either.


Spot on. occasion5



Frank
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 5:51:07 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/16/2011
Posts: 9,283
Location: Pleasure dome, United Kingdom


________________________________________________________________

Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you.
Aldous Huxley

redhot363236
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 7:18:17 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/16/2011
Posts: 607
Location: United States
deviantlover wrote:
I have had stories rejected for grammar reasons when there was nothing wrong with it, except that I was using English grammar rules and not American.


My observation isn't so much a difference in grammar, as it is that the British use a more formal form of the language. There are, however differences in spelling and punctuation
CleverFox
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:28:02 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2012
Posts: 482
Location: United States
one_winged_angel wrote:


We try to help authors make their stories better so that they can be proud of their work.


Has it ever occurred to you that maybe some of the authors don't want your "help" to make their stories "better"?

I can understand that there are standards of grammar to be upheld to make a story more easily understood but that doesn't nessacerily make the story "better".

I find the attitude of any verifier that says he or she is trying to "help" me make my story "better" to be very arrogant.

Tell me what the specific problems are and I will fix them but by no means think that you have "helped" to make my story "better".

Further more, I don't need a verifier's help to be proud of my work.
Liz
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:47:28 PM

Rank: Scarlet Seductress

Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 4,682
Location: In the sweet shop, United Kingdom
CleverFox wrote:


Has it ever occurred to you that maybe some of the authors don't want your "help" to make their stories "better"?

I can understand that there are standards of grammar to be upheld to make a story more easily understood but that doesn't necessarily make the story "better".

I find the attitude of any verifier that says he or she is trying to "help" me make my story "better" to be very arrogant.

Tell me what the specific problems are and I will fix them but by no means think that you have "helped" to make my story "better".

Further more, I don't need a verifier's help to be proud of my work.


So, good grammar does not improve a story? scratch
Sorry but you've lost me with that one.



Guest
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:51:18 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
CleverFox wrote:


Has it ever occurred to you that maybe some of the authors don't want your "help" to make their stories "better"?

I can understand that there are standards of grammar to be upheld to make a story more easily understood but that doesn't nessacerily make the story "better".

I find the attitude of any verifier that says he or she is trying to "help" me make my story "better" to be very arrogant.

Tell me what the specific problems are and I will fix them but by no means think that you have "helped" to make my story "better".

Further more, I don't need a verifier's help to be proud of my work.


If a story is full of errors, I thought that helping to fix them meant helping to make the story better. Silly me for thinking that.
CleverFox
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:57:14 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2012
Posts: 482
Location: United States
Do you think fixing technical errors makes the story better? I think it just fixes technical errors. A bad story sucks no matter how wonderful the grammar may be. All you are doing is making the story more easily understood.

Now if you (OWA and Liz) feel this makes a story better then you can feel free to pat yourselves on the back. But don't expect me to thank you for anything but helping me with the technical aspects.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 1:00:52 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,301
Location: Cakeland, United States
CleverFox wrote:
After reading the replies from OWA and Liz I see the error of my ways and I now realize that none of the people that have posted stories here on Lush could possibly have teached their full potential with out the help of the verifiers.

We need the verifiers badly.


Where would you like me to send you the butthurt report form, Fox...your email here or elsewhere? What's eating at you, man?

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 1:04:15 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
CleverFox wrote:
After reading the replies from OWA and Liz I see the error of my ways and I now realize that none of the people that have posted stories here on Lush could possibly have teached their full potential with out the help of the verifiers.

We need the verifiers badly.


I know you're being sarcastic, but we've had many pleasant authors who've been happy to get feedback and fix their stories. A lot of them now have stories in the ep section. When I first started writing for lush gypsymoth helped me fix a few of my stories and she did make them better.

This isn't directed just at you but a little politeness goes a long way. Mods are humans too and with the amount of rude message we've been getting lately, you'd think people have no manners any more.
Liz
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 1:06:11 PM

Rank: Scarlet Seductress

Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 4,682
Location: In the sweet shop, United Kingdom
CleverFox wrote:
After reading the replies from OWA and Liz I see the error of my ways and I now realize that none of the people that have posted stories here on Lush could possibly have reached their full potential without the help of the verifiers.

We need the verifiers badly.


Some people need more help than others, CleverFox.
The verifiers work hard for the benefit of all, authors and readers.


Guest
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 1:08:06 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
CleverFox wrote:
Do you think fixing technical errors makes the story better? I think it just fixes technical errors. A bad story sucks no matter how wonderful the grammar may be. All you are doing is making the story more easily understood.

Now if you (OWA and Liz) feel this makes a story better then you can feel free to pat yourselves on the back. But don't expect me to thank you for anything but helping me with the technical aspects.


We don't expect any thanks, so don't worry yourself with that. We get more hate mail than thank yous anyway.

Ask around, bad grammar is a turn off for several people. I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm putting something out there for other people to see, I'd want it to be the best it could possibly be, then again, maybe I'm weird.
Ruthie
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 1:12:21 PM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,389
Location: United States
CleverFox wrote:
After reading the replies from OWA and Liz I see the error of my ways and I now realize that none of the people that have posted stories here on Lush could possibly have teached their full potential with out the help of the verifiers.

We need the verifiers badly.


I can see why you don't think we need verifiers. The stories that you see posted online have, in many cases, been returned to the writer for extensive modification. The verifier makes recommendations, and the recommendations are made in order to make the story better. A story that has spaces between the words, proper grammar, and correct spelling is a story that is better than one that is written without regard to proper English usage. Most of the stories we receive aren't perfect. Some of them can be published as they are submitted, but a lot of them need correction.

You don't see the stories in their unfinished form. You have no idea how much work goes into a story that is actually published on Lush. Many, if not all, writers, could benefit from the help of an editor. It might surprise you to learn that most of the writers of fiction on the New York Times best selling list have editors. Most of the people who have drawers full of rejection slips don't. Stories full of technical errors don't get past the first reader.

If you want your story to be published full of technical errors feel free to submit it elsewhere. It's not going to be published that way here.
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