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Kitanica
Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2013 12:58:08 AM

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The Chihuahua Mentality


North Korea is threatening US bases in Guam and Japan, I'd list everything else they're saying but I don't think I need to, it's a fairly long list. What can North Korea really do beyond sit behind it's small fence and bark at the big dogs?
Half the country is starving and it runs entirely off foreign aid. (some prisoners claim cannibalism is occurring in the gulags)

Apart from some spotty missile technology and crude nuclear technology the only thing North Korea has is a large land army which will last them about 2 weeks against the UN and America.

If it wasn't for the crimes against humanity and countless atrocities occurring under pyongyangs leadership i'd find North Korea absolutely adorable for thinking it poses any measurable threat beyond it's own borders. They can't even launch missiles reliably and it's threatening to reignite the Korean war and warning of pre-emptive nuclear strikes against America and they think were afraid when I can outside and ask strangers who don't even know who Kim jong Il is or his son.

Why are we compliant to sit and watch these situations in Iran and North Korea with no intervention? My opinion is that after Iraq and still being invested in afghanistan no one wants to spend the money or manpower to do anything beyond sanctions. we accomplished nothing in iraq, afghanistans not much better off as once we leave the situation will revert back to where it was 10 years ago.

I also found the remake of red dawn ridiculous because of the fact it was N. Korea "occupying" the united states, yeah right.


Any thoughts on the whole Korea situation?
Guest
Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:22:03 AM

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I've have been in the service and I pray for those currently active we stay out of N. Korea. We will roll them and then spend years in jungle warfare if we go in.
Kitanica
Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:09:43 AM

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Well Korea isn't jungle, it's temperate. We'd only go into Korea if they attacked, but they never would. Were more likely to intervene in syria
Highwayman
Posted: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:37:19 PM

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Same ideology thought during Kosovo issue while Clinton was Prez. Who would think the northern part of Greece being other than "temperate?" Ahhh, geography does has it's limits. Good idea that the order was to stand down.

‎"The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible." --Wilde
CleverFox
Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2013 5:03:02 PM

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It is up to the people of North Korea to change their government. Foreign intervention is useless without the support of the people of the country being invaded as was shown by The Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, the Soviet invasion of Afganastan, the US invasion of South Vietnam, the US invasion of Iraq and many other invasions and occupations.

If the North Korean people ever do revolt the results will depend on which side the North Korean military support, the people or the government. In Lybia, the military supported the people for the most part and Qadaffi was overthrown. In Syria, the military is supporting the government for the most part and the government still stands.

And even if the revolution is successful when it comes is no guarantee of democracy or freedom.
Kitanica
Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:51:04 PM

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Highwayman wrote:
Same ideology thought during Kosovo issue while Clinton was Prez. Who would think the northern part of Greece being other than "temperate?" Ahhh, geography does has it's limits. Good idea that the order was to stand down.


Huh? Greece isn't temperate and Kosovo isn't even part of Greece.
Koreas to far north to be a jungle. The Korean war was fought partially in snow. Ive never seen snow in a tropical rainforest lol

kylie_kained
Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2013 8:36:13 PM

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Being North Korean Myself rofl ( Joke. ) No seriously if they were daft enough to launch strikes on anyone then I would guess that they wouldn't exist for long. It is a worry that they might just launch an attack on somebody but I would guess it most likely to be against the South Koreans.
















Buz
Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2013 9:36:54 PM

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Unfortunately the people of North Korea are trapped underneath the oppressive autocratic rule of Communist Royalty that passes down the dictatorship like a monarchy.

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ByronLord
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:55:25 PM

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CleverFox wrote:
It is up to the people of North Korea to change their government. Foreign intervention is useless without the support of the people of the country being invaded as was shown by The Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, the Soviet invasion of Afganastan, the US invasion of South Vietnam, the US invasion of Iraq and many other invasions and occupations.

If the North Korean people ever do revolt the results will depend on which side the North Korean military support, the people or the government. In Lybia, the military supported the people for the most part and Qadaffi was overthrown. In Syria, the military is supporting the government for the most part and the government still stands.

And even if the revolution is successful when it comes is no guarantee of democracy or freedom.


More likely it is up to the government of China.

North Korea is acting out because China refused to back them in the Security Council which is in turn because they are fed up of North Korea which is an economic basket case and an embarrassment.

At this point the regime is getting rather too embarrassing. Which is actually a quite logical thing to do if you are a North Korean party member. Having the Chinese ome in and rid you of your vile govt. is probably your best way out. If you try to do anything yourself you are going to be sent to one of their gulags. About 20% of the population ends up in a gulag at some point. Less than half survive.

So provoking the Chinese to perform a coup or invade or otherwise rid you of the corrupt government probably looks like a really good idea. It is what I would do in that position.

MissDaisy1
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 4:32:14 PM

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Kim Jong-un acts like a spoiled brat with the hubris of his father. The US already has troops stationed at the demilitarized zone ("DMZ"). Maintain status quo. Mr. Kim already knows that his world will end if he dares to shoot nuclear missiles at Japan, Guam, South Korea, or China. Mr. Kim, all hat, no cattle.
Highwayman
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:54:51 PM

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Kitanica wrote:


Huh? Greece isn't temperate and Kosovo isn't even part of Greece.
Koreas to far north to be a jungle. The Korean war was fought partially in snow. Ive never seen snow in a tropical rainforest lol



Umm, yeah.

read more..LOL. It snows in Greece too. Now back to the actual topic, and not climates.

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CleverFox
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:53:28 PM

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ByronLord wrote:


More likely it is up to the government of China.

North Korea is acting out because China refused to back them in the Security Council which is in turn because they are fed up of North Korea which is an economic basket case and an embarrassment.

At this point the regime is getting rather too embarrassing. Which is actually a quite logical thing to do if you are a North Korean party member. Having the Chinese ome in and rid you of your vile govt. is probably your best way out. If you try to do anything yourself you are going to be sent to one of their gulags. About 20% of the population ends up in a gulag at some point. Less than half survive.

So provoking the Chinese to perform a coup or invade or otherwise rid you of the corrupt government probably looks like a really good idea. It is what I would do in that position.



China invading North Korea is an interesting thought. Do you think China would stop at the DMZ or try to take the entire peninsula? I don't think South Korea would be to happy, or Japan or most of south-east Asia or most of the world. The Chinese government isn't all that less corrupt than the North Korean government.

As far as a coup, it would probably be a military coup so it wouldn't make much difference to the people.

I understand about the gulags but the only way lasting change comes in a country is when the people make the change themselves.
Highwayman
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:20:59 PM

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China will not invade, its perceived economic bitch (USA), at the moment, would not like it.

‎"The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible." --Wilde
MissDaisy1
Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:57:20 PM

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This Korean war would be fought with F/A-18, nuclear missiles, and aircraft carriers. I doubt that troops would be used. If Mr. Kim overruns the DMZ, his reign will end with bombs (conventional) on his capital. If Mr. Kim decides to use nuclear weapons, his country will end in ruin. Highwayman is right, the Chinese will not do anything, unless Mr. Kim directly threatens China.

China will follow what we tell them. We owe them too much money. That is the funny thing about borrowing money from a country. China owns too many treasuries, if we are disabled and not able to pay them interest, China will suffer. In addition, China relies on the US for jobs and money. China exports their products to the US; they have to have a viable market to make money. US suffers, China suffers.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 1:27:17 AM

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Highwayman wrote:


Umm, yeah.

read more..LOL. It snows in Greece too. Now back to the actual topic, and not climates.


I really hope this isn't a map that shows where there's jungle, because if it is, then there's jungle where I live, and I can guarantee you that there is no jungle here... AT ALL. Not even remotely. North Korea in terrain and climate is more similar to Afghanistan than Vietnam.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Tranquil
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 1:49:05 AM

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Personally, i don't think China would bow out of moving into Korea if it irritated them so. Nor do i believe it would think twice of going back into oppression for a couple of years rather then upsetting the USA and the financial float.

This is China. this empire will survive sanctions, and financial ruin? hello the USA may owe it a lot of money but China has more then just the one country in its back pocket. try half of Europe, Africa, South America and south pacific to name a few.

North Korea has taken back its threat against the USA and has placed on less strategic countries such as Iceland, new Zealand etc. Countries they can show their might that would upset the world but you could all live with.

So relax and take a breather..

Our prime ministers response was simple, "We don't have the anti ballistics equipment so there is nothing we can do. Lets not allow it to effect us. "

Aussie has confirm they will ensure the world will know if my little country is blown up and the King of Tonga confirmed if he see's missiles in the sky heading our way he will give us the heads up.

So all we can ask is the powers to be not to test North Korea just in case they decide to test on us. But then again, why would a super power like America listen to us in that regards......




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elitfromnorth
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013 1:57:14 AM

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Fucking with Iceland is a bad idea. Iceland is a member of NATO and in the event of an attack they'll just call paragraph 5 and suddenly you have all of NATO bombing the shit out of North Korea as well as South Korea joining in. No matter who North Korea attacks, South Korea will join in, because it's in their own interest to strike an aggressive North down. Even if China attacks you might risk an invasion from the South. They're geniuinly afraid a fuse will blow in Kim Il's head and even if their nukes are unrealiable, a nuclear attack on SK soil will be devestating.

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Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:54:24 AM

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MissDaisy1 wrote:
This Korean war would be fought with F/A-18, nuclear missiles, and aircraft carriers. I doubt that troops would be used. If Mr. Kim overruns the DMZ, his reign will end with bombs (conventional) on his capital. If Mr. Kim decides to use nuclear weapons, his country will end in ruin. Highwayman is right, the Chinese will not do anything, unless Mr. Kim directly threatens China.

China will follow what we tell them. We owe them too much money. That is the funny thing about borrowing money from a country. China owns too many treasuries, if we are disabled and not able to pay them interest, China will suffer. In addition, China relies on the US for jobs and money. China exports their products to the US; they have to have a viable market to make money. US suffers, China suffers.


Actually I do not believe your statement about a war with North Korea being fought with F/A-18, Nuclear Armaments, and Aircraft carries to be correct. The reason for this because of NK own nuclear arms. Crude though they may be, nuclear technology is still desired for the legitimacy it give to nations that posses it (reference Iran), and it's (obvious) destructive/lethal capabilities.

The army even had a military wargame about the fall of NK:

can't post link, google " Business Insider The US Army Is Planning For A Failed Nuclear State In North Korea" and you should see it if interested.


The article basically goes on to explain that we would be rushing into NK to do our best to secure said nuclear armaments before they fell into the hands of someone opposing US interests.

The Article also mentions the problem, that because of it's almost unique isolationism from the rest of the world, we don't have the intel on the terrain and other obstacles to initiate another shockingly fast rush to Baghdad type scenario. This leaves the estimated 90,000 troops referred to in the article (take all these estimations as conservative, as "most plans don't survive the first shot"), having to cover unfamiliar terrain with little intel and unknown obstacles in the way.

What the article doesn't mention at all is our invading China's sphere of influence. China is increasingly adopting a similar policy as the US in trying to extend it's influence throughout the Asia-Pacific. I do not expect China to just wave us in and say "hey do whatever you want, we're cool with it". They are now a superpower, and have a reputation to maintain that would surely suffer if they allowed US just waltzed into their backyard and mess with their neighbor whom they have previously supported.

And though it would be nice for US foreign interests if they just gave because they are the #1 holder of US debt, their economy is hardly dependent upon the US paying back all it owes. China's economy is well funded by their inclination to steal patent technology, adapt it, and re-sell said technology for a more competitive price. And though that is no corner stone to hold up their economy in the case of US default, their business with Europe and the rest of the world, leaves them less dependent upon US debt than many realize.


Though hopefully this is all theoretical. NK is like many Asiatic countries in that age is a large contributing factor in power and credibility. Being only 28 years old and recently ascended to his "throne", it is more than likely that Kim Jong Un's chest beating and seemingly infantile and nonsensical theatrics are nothing more than his way of retaining the support of his military cohorts. He needs some way to impress upon them that he is not just some young child too naive to hold his position, or else risk losing the military's support and thus his reign. So he yells and screams, making a lot of noise, but hopefully it shouldn't amount to much.

And for the sake of US domestic interests, I sincerely hope NK does not fall (at least as predicted above) because the US can simply not afford another nation building effort almost solely backed by the US government and its taxpayers.

And @Tranquil: I find it unlikely that if missiles were sent in New Zealand's direction, that the US would just stand by. If not for the philanthropic reasons that would be preached by politicians and news outlet (however justified), then for the simple fact that the US would not allow NK to attain a "new found level of respect/legitimacy" without serious repercussions and retaliation for its hostile actions. A perceived strong/capable North Korea would hinder US interests in the region and the administrations globalist policies as a whole.
ByronLord
Posted: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:51:04 AM

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Mhil wrote:

Actually I do not believe your statement about a war with North Korea being fought with F/A-18, Nuclear Armaments, and Aircraft carries to be correct. The reason for this because of NK own nuclear arms. Crude though they may be, nuclear technology is still desired for the legitimacy it give to nations that posses it (reference Iran), and it's (obvious) destructive/lethal capabilities.


That is the reason that an escalation to nuclear weapons is considered likely. North Korea has a crude nuclear device but does not have the ability to put it on a missile. So the response would be to try to knock out the North Korean army and their nuclear facilities as soon as possible. That would mean using nuclear weapons.

China is not going to allow that of course. But they don't want to engage in a war with the US. So their best option right now is to liquidate the leadership of NK in a coup d'etat.

Kitanica
Posted: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:57:05 AM

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Highwayman wrote:


Umm, yeah.

read more..LOL. It snows in Greece too. Now back to the actual topic, and not climates.


Well it is on topic as an alleged servicemen said we'd be bogged down in a jungle and North Koreas not a jungle, and your image shows two different colors. Greece is chaparral I.e. Mediterranean. I never said it didn't snow in greece. To summarize my last two posts, Greece is not the same climate as Korea, North Korea is not a jungle, and Greece has nothing to do with North Korea.

Wikimedia/pedia aren't reliable sources as anyone can edit them and upload photos. Which is most likely why it doesn't match any map found on the koppen-geiger website. That's ultimately irrelevant as it doesn't change the fact that Greece belongs to the chaparral biome and north Korea belongs to temperate despite their respective k-g classifications which are actually climate changes-predictions. The maps go from 1901-2100.
You don't get vietnam-esque tropical rainforests in Manchuria-Korea-Japan
It simply doesnt happen.

I can read quite well. :)

Anywho for everyone else there seems to be an update: the north has cut off the line of communication across the dmz to the south. No more talking for now I guess. I haven't been watching the news closely the past few days. you think a general would quietly off Kim, and turn Korea democratic and be come part of the world again lol.
Tranquil
Posted: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:50:16 PM

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Highwayman
Posted: Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:20:17 PM

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"No more talking for now I guess. I haven't been watching the news closely the past few days. you think a general would quietly off Kim, and turn Korea democratic and be come part of the world again lol."

Yeah, and Castro is still alive, for now.



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cheeseball
Posted: Friday, March 29, 2013 8:30:40 PM

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Kitanica wrote:


Well it is on topic as an alleged servicemen said we'd be bogged down in a jungle and North Koreas not a jungle, and your image shows two different colors. Greece is chaparral I.e. Mediterranean. I never said it didn't snow in greece. To summarize my last two posts, Greece is not the same climate as Korea, North Korea is not a jungle, and Greece has nothing to do with North Korea.

Wikimedia/pedia aren't reliable sources as anyone can edit them and upload photos.



I would agree that Wikipedia isn't a reliable information resource. It's more of a joke. You might as well list "The Onion" as a resource.
Michael
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:10:37 AM

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As someone sitting less than 100 km from the North Korean/Russian border, I can assure you that it does get very cold.

But given the success (or lack of success) of North Korea in launching rockets, I worry more about the damned things landing on my head then making it to US, Guam or anywhere but South Korea. If North Korea does launch a preemptive strike, it would most likely be to South Korea, using non-nuclear arsenal. They may be just stupid enough to think a limited war will keep the poor peasants under control as they rub their empty bellies.


Jack_42
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:10:01 AM

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All this stuff is a con. The cold war was a con - I can only recall one country ever using nuclear weapons.
Michael
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:27:37 AM

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Jack, you are correct in the sense that only one country has used nuclear weapons against another country.

But just as the US has recently used it's nuclear capable stealth bombers in test over South Korea as a warning, all too many countries have used nuclear tests as a warning.
Thus, the threat continues to exist, and will only increase as more countries use what little resources they have available to create their own nuclear technology.


Jack_42
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 6:14:13 AM

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Michael wrote:
Jack, you are correct in the sense that only one country has used nuclear weapons against another country.

But just as the US has recently used it's nuclear capable stealth bombers in test over South Korea as a warning, all too many countries have used nuclear tests as a warning.
Thus, the threat continues to exist, and will only increase as more countries use what little resources they have available to create their own nuclear technology.


Unfortunately I have a long memory and they are not going to do it it's a no win situation and a waste of money. I was a serving member of the forces during the Cuban crisis and that was all sabre rattling. Even the British (my lot) conned the US into thinking we had tested an H bomb so they would allow us to be part of their nuclear thingy when all the time we exploded a very large atom bomb and not an H bomb (I remember the documentary they even told us it was an H bomb). The whole thing will probably crumble internally like the USSR did - all the rest is just hot air and we won't have Charlton Heston on his knees looking at the remains of the statue of Liberty saying ''you finally did it.''
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 12:34:38 PM

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Jack_42 wrote:


Unfortunately I have a long memory and they are not going to do it it's a no win situation and a waste of money. I was a serving member of the forces during the Cuban crisis and that was all sabre rattling. Even the British (my lot) conned the US into thinking we had tested an H bomb so they would allow us to be part of their nuclear thingy when all the time we exploded a very large atom bomb and not an H bomb (I remember the documentary they even told us it was an H bomb). The whole thing will probably crumble internally like the USSR did - all the rest is just hot air and we won't have Charlton Heston on his knees looking at the remains of the statue of Liberty saying ''you finally did it.''


What about it was saber rattling?

Not to nention Gorbachev stepped down peacefully and the coup against him failed. Kim Jong Un's not going to step down without a bullet in him. The people of north korea are starving; they can't oust him in their current position, and his regime isn't going anywhere peacefully.
Jack_42
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 2:29:33 PM

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Kitanica wrote:


[What about it was saber rattling?

Not to nention Gorbachev stepped down peacefully and the coup against him failed. Kim Jong Un's not going to step down without a bullet in him. The people of north korea are starving; they can't oust him in their current position, and his regime isn't going anywhere peacefully.
]

The whole thing was sabre rattling or finger hovering over button bluffing otherwise all the Americans who did so wouldn't have wasted all that money on nuclear fallout shelters and we would not be here. As for the USSR and Gorbachev the details of who was in charge is irrelevant it was crumbling the signs were all there - the wall coming down etc (don't forget I remember when it was built) let's stop enjoying all the drama about Kim Jong I've lost count of how many tyrants are running countries around the world and as for people starving that too is all over the place. And please don't quote the nuclear capability thing - remember I lived with the con of the cold war for all my life so am not impressed. ''Mein Furher I can walk.''
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2013 7:38:39 PM

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Jack_42 wrote:
]

The whole thing was sabre rattling or finger hovering over button bluffing otherwise all the Americans who did so wouldn't have wasted all that money on nuclear fallout shelters and we would not be here. As for the USSR and Gorbachev the details of who was in charge is irrelevant it was crumbling the signs were all there - the wall coming down etc (don't forget I remember when it was built) let's stop enjoying all the drama about Kim Jong I've lost count of how many tyrants are running countries around the world and as for people starving that too is all over the place. And please don't quote the nuclear capability thing - remember I lived with the con of the cold war for all my life so am not impressed. ''Mein Furher I can walk.''


The reason the Cuban missile crisis ended the way it did was because kennedy made a secret under the table deal the administration never admitted to publicly or they'd look weak. It was a peaceful de-escalation where everyone got what they wanted. It showed the new leaders were willing to play ball, where as Stalin never would have. The ussr would withdraw from Cuba, Kennedy gets to takes credit and say Russia blinked in the stare-down then about 6months later all hush hush we would take our missiles out of turkey. No one has to get lit up atomic style. America and the Ussr could hold their own. we bluffed, they bluffed, we spent on quality, they went quantity. Hence why it's called the cold war. When you setup missile launch sites a hour away from targets things get real regardless.

North Koreas a different situation from the ussr, it's not a multinational league. It's one totalitarian regime, and it's not weakening. They eat fine, the populace suffer. The ussr coup was government vs government. North Korea won't change unless it's the citizens rising up against a million man army which will end in the country destroying itself and being absorbed by south korea; external intervention resulting in the same outcome, or northkorea being dumb enough to poke the world lion with a big fat stick and get malled.

North Korea couldn't fight itself out of a wet torn paperbag against any fully developed nation of the west or east. They boast a big army on land. But that gets you no where when you can't move them, feed them abroad, or support them by sea and air. North koreas completely isolated. An army can't do anything locked in a tiny peninsula. They're ships aren't going anywhere, their planes aren't either. They can't get their missiles straight. They may pose a threat to South Korea or the citizens of North Korea but to NATO it's laughable. So I don't see where your getting this idea that the ussr and north Korea are just yanking our chain. The ussr could have bombed us off the face of the earth and vice versa. North Korea doesn't even have a stable delivery platform or a payload to send. The Entire cold war was a fallacy because no ones dumb enough to launch a nuke and go down that road, it was mostly just the war industry profiteering, but it doesn't change the fact that the threat was real. it doesn't matter if no one pushed the button. It only took a crossed wire or false alert on a radar screen or someone tripping and pushing it by accident (that's not how they're actually launched but that's not the point) Your age is irrelevant because you seem to have a rudimentary understanding of the Cold War-Cuban missile crisis as you wouldn't be comparing it to the completely empty threats of Pyongyang. dontknow

Kim Jong Un can talk all he wants but he can't back it up like the soviets could have. I don't know any other countries that try to threaten the strongest military presence in the world while seemingly ignoring the fact they run entirely off foreign aid and can't feed their own people.
We beat North Korea once, were prepared to do it again if we have to. The Korean War wasn't a stalemate because North Korea is some kind of savant military power. They got their asses handed to them and they called their big buddy china to come help just like we stepped in to help South Korea when they got there beating. (pardon the language there) The north doesn't have that option anymore like the south does. They're out of luck.

You can't just lump them together, it was a turning point, It's more likely to end future conflicts than "the war to end all wars" because it was the first time man learned to stop and think before acting and realize this whole business is unacceptable in a civilized society. Kims just a douche.
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