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WellMadeMale
Posted: Friday, April 05, 2013 3:44:01 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
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Location: Cakeland, United States
If the press stopped treating gayness as a stamp of shame, outing would lose much of its bite. But the media's double standard forbids acknowledging the sexual orientation of gay people they view as heroes, while sensationalistically trumpeting it in the case of villains.

The above words were written, in November 1991.

I don't know, but I am curious... is this still, over 20 years later - a major concern within this community. I haven't really noticed it much in the last decade in the media - mostly because I don't pay much attention many current cultural sensationalism.

Comments and or concerns?

Or has this practice faded away into the past..?

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
HotBttmInBriefs
Posted: Friday, April 05, 2013 7:03:04 AM

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I do not think it has faded away at all.

There are still folks within the gay, lesbian and bisexual world who still feel it is their responsibilty to out people whether they are ready to be outed or not.

It is a practice I totally disagree with. I just feel whether you are famous or not, whatever goes on in a person's bedroom is one of those things I don't feel it is everyone's right to know.

JohnC
Posted: Friday, April 05, 2013 7:41:25 AM

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Interesting topic. Frankly since being gay is almost "fashionable" now days, to me, it seems kind of pointless. I think most people, even very conservative ones, could care less. Only a vocal extreme minority would make an issue of it in general no matter what they thought about homosexuality in general.

I agree, what people do in their bedrooms between consenting legal adults is their business and no one else's. But this is a two edged sword... I don't like seeing their sexuality and sexual choices pushed in the faces of others either. Keep it to yourself and don't make it a "defining" aspect of who you are, nor demand everyone accept it/condone it/promote it. In Your Face sexuality on any level or bend tends to annoy most people, unless in a setting where that is normal and part of the "thing". In general life, it is best to keep those things to yourself. But if you DO push it in people's faces, expect some to let you know what they think. As the saying goes "keep your nose out of my business.... but keep your business out of my face". ;)

I think society in general has become very accepting and tolerant of a LOT of things... which is wonderful. But most people don't like to be PUSHED or have things shoved in their face demanding acceptance and approval.

HotBttmInBriefs
Posted: Friday, April 05, 2013 8:07:48 AM

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John, I agree with you majorly on one point.

And that is the part about letting one thing in your life define who you are. So many of my gay and bisexual friends love to proclaim their sexuality and their pride in it to the point that you don't even know anymore what and who they are because all you think when you think of this is their sexuality.

I used to love Rosie O'Donnel. She was one of my favorite actresses, talk show hosts, etc. Today I just can't stomach her at her all. She just comes off to me as some bitter old woman. I couldn't even stand to be in a room with her for 5 minutes. The lady could have had a great legacy but now she will only ever be known by most people by the fact that she is gay. And she has or had so many other great attributes to give to the world.

Recently a poll on Family Feud asked the question of 100 people what they knew about Rosie O'Donnell. A huge majority like 70% of the folks said she was a lesbian. Everything else got very few votes or responses. I just think that is sad.

I am proud of who I am. I am not ashamed of it all. But in the end of my life or during it I do not want to ever be defined by my sexuality. What I do in the bedroom is just a portion of my life. It is not who I am.

Back on the subject of the thread, I tend to agree that most people don't care anymore. But there are still folks within the community who feel that especially with famous folks that it validates who the rest of us are or that it suddenly makes the rest of us okay in society if there is a famous person who identifies with us as well. It is like oh Tom Cruise loves to suck dick so now every straight person is going to say "Oh wow Tom Cruise sucks dick maybe I should try it too."

As long as I live I will never understand that philosophy.

JohnC
Posted: Friday, April 05, 2013 8:45:41 AM

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Indeed. And agreed. (Hey that rhymed! )

seeker4
Posted: Friday, April 05, 2013 10:37:04 AM

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Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 2,931
Location: In the great, beautiful Cosmos, Canada
Having openly gay celebrities like Ellen, Rosie, Elton, and the guy from How I Met Your Mother who used to play Doogie Howser (forget his name) has certainly blunted the negative (and positive, really) impact of outing. It basically means that when someone public comes out, they are no longer the first and immediately have a supportive community to back them up. The general public often greets it with a shrug unless its completely out of left field (if, for instance, a ladies' man like Clooney came out, I think that would make some jaws drop, much as Rock Hudson did back in the day when his death from AIDS made his orientation public).

Even in Canadian politics, someone coming out is no longer big news (not sure about other countries, including the USA). The new premier of Ontario is a lesbian and only the gay and conservative communities really made any issue of it (the former to celebrate, the latter to criticize). The mainstream media didn't even talk about it much, which is good. This province has some bigger fish to fry than who our premier goes home to at night (deficits, f-ed up healthcare system, etc.). We have several gay MPs in our federal caucuses at the moment and the only time their sexuality seems to get talked about nowadays is when a bill affecting it comes up.

That said, with loud conservative communities in US and Canada still willing to use homosexuality as a reason to target celebrities and politicians, I'm not sure that the days of "outing" are quite over yet. As long as there is a potential for harm from coming out, some people will stay in the closet and other people will try to find them in there and get them out.


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sprite
Posted: Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:48:44 AM

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ok, a few thoughts on the topic as well as the sidetracks. i don't think outing is such an issue anymore, at least in my own experiences, growing up and now living in cities (SF bay area and Seattle) where being gay carries as much as a stigma as it used to? i think the only really outings i recall recently are when someone is vehemently anti-gay and then is outed as actually being gay - usually politicians? in that case, i get it. if you're going to be a bigot, especially against 'your own people' you kind of earned it. that said, celebs are openly gay and really, the public is is, generally, ok with it. if the guy or girl is likable, it helps. Ellen and Portia are cool cause people like them. same with Neil Patrick Harris and a number of other celebs. people thing Rosie is strident and she can be unlikable, so people are less cool with that, so she gets the negative image attached to her.

what i don't like is using being gay as a put down. all those rumors of Tom Cruise or John Travolta being gay to paint them in a negative light. look, if they're assholes, that has nothing to do with their sexuality. they're assholes. don't go making it a gay thing.

now, on to the pda posts. define getting peoples sexuality pushed into your face? yes, there's a decorum to be followed. it's in bad taste being in most public venues for couples of any orientation to be groping each other, sticking their tongues down each others throats, humping legs, etc... notice i said both. i'm cool with it in a lot of clubs where it's just socially acceptable. at book stores, tho, or restaurants, tho? just kind of in bad taste in general. we used to (ok, still do) get pretty frisky occasionally when we're in an atmosphere that accepts it. when not, we're very low key.

That said, we like to hold hands, we like to hug, we like to kiss, not full on 'we're about to have sex' kisses, but we do kiss. it's affectionate. if that's being in your face, then too bad. we're in love. i think it's beautiful when straight couples kiss. i think it's beautiful when gay couples kiss. if you have issues with that, it's really just that; it's YOUR issue.

ok, another thing. gays are the last minority to be LEGALLY denied equal rights, at least in the the USA. let that sink in for a moment and you'll understand why we feel the need to be vocal about it. in same places you can be fired for being gay. you can be denied inclusion (BSA) for being gay, you can't get married, DOMA is still in effect, etc. if gays tend to be out there actively trying to change that, can you blame us? the only way things change is if people stand up and try to change them. if you sit back and let it continue, it doesn't change. wanting to be treated equally - notice that. equally. not better, not having more rights, simply having the same rights, is still a struggle for many of us. not being persecuted for our orientation is still a struggle in many places. being accepted is still a struggle. it's gotten better. Stonewall started it, but it still has a ways to go. so yeah, there are times i am going to get into people's faces IF they give me a reason. i am still aware that, depending on where i am or who i am around, i need to adjust my actions and be 'less gay' or be aware that there might be repercussions. people are still bullied, beat up, or worse because of being gay - yes, it is changing, but it has a ways to go still.

:)
sprite
Posted: Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:54:02 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 13,740
Location: My Tower, United States
HotBttmInBriefs wrote:
John, I agree with you majorly on one point.

And that is the part about letting one thing in your life define who you are. So many of my gay and bisexual friends love to proclaim their sexuality and their pride in it to the point that you don't even know anymore what and who they are because all you think when you think of this is their sexuality.

I used to love Rosie O'Donnel. She was one of my favorite actresses, talk show hosts, etc. Today I just can't stomach her at her all. She just comes off to me as some bitter old woman. I couldn't even stand to be in a room with her for 5 minutes. The lady could have had a great legacy but now she will only ever be known by most people by the fact that she is gay. And she has or had so many other great attributes to give to the world.

Recently a poll on Family Feud asked the question of 100 people what they knew about Rosie O'Donnell. A huge majority like 70% of the folks said she was a lesbian. Everything else got very few votes or responses. I just think that is sad.

I am proud of who I am. I am not ashamed of it all. But in the end of my life or during it I do not want to ever be defined by my sexuality. What I do in the bedroom is just a portion of my life. It is not who I am.
.


the problem i have with this is simply this - while i don't define myself by my sexuality, a lot of other people do. i have seen too many people referred to as the gay guy, the gay couple, the lesbian, the dyke, the fag, as if that's all they are. i'm just a girl in love with another girl. it goes both ways. i am so much more than just a lesbian and if people are overly proud of it, perhaps it's because they feel they have to be, they have to be a little bit in your face to make a point such as; yeah, i'm gay, and guess what? i'm still a good person. accept me as who i am, not despite of who i am.
Liz
Posted: Sunday, April 07, 2013 12:22:23 PM

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sprite wrote:


the problem i have with this is simply this - while i don't define myself by my sexuality, a lot of other people do. i have seen too many people referred to as the gay guy, the gay couple, the lesbian, the dyke, the fag, as if that's all they are. i'm just a girl in love with another girl. it goes both ways. i am so much more than just a lesbian and if people are overly proud of it, perhaps it's because they feel they have to be, they have to be a little bit in your face to make a point such as; yeah, i'm gay, and guess what? i'm still a good person. accept me as who i am, not despite of who i am.


One statement can sum it up so perfectly. Hugs



LOVES4PLAY
Posted: Sunday, April 07, 2013 1:11:43 PM

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.ACCEPT ME AS I AM,NOT DESPITE OF WHO I AM !
Sprite its a beautiful statement, its one people should try to live by..
EDWolfe
Posted: Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:23:29 PM

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seeker4 wrote:
Having openly gay celebrities like Ellen, Rosie, Elton, and the guy from How I Met Your Mother who used to play Doogie Howser (forget his name) has certainly blunted the negative (and positive, really) impact of outing.


Agreed. The celebrity you're talking about is Neil Patrick Harris, by the way.

There is still some stigma around GLBT lifestyles in certain circles, but I think that mainstream society has come around enough to accept people regardless of sexual orientation. I mean, I didn't even know that Harris was gay; all I knew was that he was a famous actor.

It can be negative, however, if it surrounds someone who turned it into a negative experience. The politician who's married with kids, but having an affair with someone of the same sex is going to have a more negative experience than the celebrity who embraces their attraction for the same sex.
HotBttmInBriefs
Posted: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:49:45 AM

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I agree with the statement of accept me for who I am, not despite of who I am.....but each of us has to work on it too.

I have no problem with a person's sexuality and do accept them for who I am. But when a person comes off so angry all the time and presents themselves as a true bitch or a true bastard all the time, then no matter who they are or whatever the point they are trying to get across they are not going to be heard.

I agree with so many of Rosie O'Donnell's politics, esp. on gay marriage, etc., but she presents herself in such a way that no one hears her anymore. She is so angry and so confrontational all the time. And the woman has so much to say and so much to offer but overall it just doesn't matter anymore. She has IMO lost so much of her influence by being so bitter and angry.

As far as what other people think about me, I learned a long time ago that no one was going to accept everything I did in my life. That is their problem and not mine. If they can't and won't accept who I am then I move on.

Back to the subject of OUTING....I think the biggest way it can turn to a negative experience is the person outed continues to deny it. I think it is a person's right to choose when he or she is outed, but if it happens and the person continues to deny it, then he or she only creates more problems for themselves down the road when they do choose to come out on their own. First off they build that illusion in others that they are ashamed of who they are. That is the first impression folks get and that is a hard one to live down. It's like if you are caught in a lie, the best thing to do is just own it and deal with it. At least I have found that is what works best for me.

As to the idea of mainstream society coming around to accept people, I still find that a little naive. And I guess because I still live in small town America. Plus even when perusing the suggest members or whatever they are called at the top of the home page here, I still come across those statements on some guys profiles that say in their bios I am only into girls, guys don't even both to ask to be friends or contact me. Or the occasional comments in the forums where anal may be mentioned esp. in one where a girl posted she wanted to see her boyfriend get done by another guy. Some of the guys acted as if she was asking to have her bf murdered. But I have seen those same guys seem to cheer on guys saying they want to watch their wife or gf have sex with another girl.

I think we are still many years away from mainstream America fully accepting a person who is outed being gay or bisexual...especially for a man in that situation where straight men are concerned anyway. Just my opinion.

JohnC
Posted: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:13:27 AM

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But keep in mind that those same types of profile statements are rampant in reverse for Lesbians toward men too. And I have seen complaints from members that gay members are TOO aggressive in their "conquest" of them, even after trying nicely that they are NOT interested. So for me, it isn't quite so simple, or one sided. Same with forum topics too. So... yeah, for me, not so cut and dry.

HotBttmInBriefs
Posted: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:15:09 AM

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I meant to also say on the first part.....

To me I understand the point that Sprite made about sometime feeling you have to get in someone's face with it to try and make a point.

But to me I just still feel like the better approach ...for me anyway .... is to go about my business focusing on the good parts of my life....putting my good points on display.....showing them who I am and that is what matters. I have don't feel the need to have to wear my rainbow flag and bisexuality always flying high above my head.

How in the world will we ever get the world to realize it doesn't really matter who we are fucking? Look at me for who I am .... forget about who I am fucking in the bedroom? How are they going to forget who we are fucking when we are constantly putting in their face.

In the end after presenting myself for who I am if a person still can't forget who I am fucking or who is fucking me and deal with it....then that is their problem not mine.

I have many friends that I don't know what is going on in their bedrooms. I don't care to know to either. I like them for the person they are and for so many other things. I know that their bedroom activities wouldn't make a difference (unless it was illegal) on whether I liked them or not, but I just don't feel it is something I have to know or have the right to know. Now if they brazenly put it out there and came off bitchy about it, now that would make a difference. It wouldn't matter to me who they were fucking but I just don't like that kind of person and don't want to be around them.

Against just my opinion.

HotBttmInBriefs
Posted: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:20:06 AM

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JohnC wrote:
But keep in mind that those same types of profile statements are rampant in reverse for Lesbians toward men too. And I have seen complaints from members that gay members are TOO aggressive in their "conquest" of them, even after trying nicely that they are NOT interested. So for me, it isn't quite so simple, or one sided. Same with forum topics too. So... yeah, for me, not so cut and dry.


I totally agree with you JohnC. And I have seen both kinds of comments you are talking about too.

As to coming off too aggressive, that is one of the reasons I quit playing the forum games for awhile and did quit until this week posting in the Fuck or Not Fuck games. Some of the folks men and women both in there at times came off biting when you were rejected. Sometimes it is simply the difference between a No or Pass and a Hell No or No Way ..... but that one added word makes a big difference.

Plus I was scared some guy would get offended if I said I would or wouldn't -- either thinking I was after him or that I was putting him down. I have played again the last 2 days but was even thinking this morning about quitting again. You just never know how people are going to take those things. So I am just thinking it is best to avoid them.

JohnC
Posted: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:29:14 AM

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Quite right. I tend to stay clear of those as well though. :)

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