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Some doctors require wife's consent before performing vasectomy on husbands Options · View
Guest
Posted: Friday, July 26, 2013 4:58:40 PM

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It makes no sense to me at all why a doctor would need a wifes' permission to perform a vasectomy on her husband. Long before they were married he was and is his own person. It should be his decision and not hers. On the other hand I believe it should be open for discussion but in the long run, it's a mans decision whether he wants a vasectomy or not. My ex wanted me to have a vasectomy and I flat out told her no. I told her I would use protection and that she herself could use some type of contraceptive device to prevent pregnancy. Yet that may be one of the many reasons why we are divorced now but I'll be damned if some woman is going to tell me to get snipped because she wants to have the fun without having children. If a woman wants safe sex then she can get her tubes tied or a total hysterectomy for that matter. I'm not by any means try to sound cold hearted but most of the women I've come to date in my life have always tried to run my life for me. It's either their way of life and I have no say so in the matter. Relationships are supposed to be 50/50. I'm being very picky now about who I date and if things aren't going the way they should be going, then I end the relationship before it gets to far. Call me old fashioned but this is who I am and being 54, I'm not about to change my ways for anyone. There is only one person I have to answer to in the end and it's not someone on this planet.
BiMale73
Posted: Friday, July 26, 2013 5:02:33 PM

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Location: Basement
dex69 wrote:
There is only one person I have to answer to in the end and it's not someone on this planet.


An astronaut? ;)

Jinxy
Posted: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:38:41 PM

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It's up to him, yes but I would hope he had his wife's ok to do it. What kind of husband goes behind his wife's back and does it without telling her? But, it is his body so if he wants one, it's his choice.

†Jinxy Approved†

WellMadeMale
Posted: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:41:19 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,288
Location: Cakeland, United States
Ruthie wrote:


Quoting from MRO's is what labels you, not me. I don't label anyone. I wait and let them do it themselves.

No, a man doesn't need his wife's consent for a vasectomy. "Does a man need his wife's right for a vasectomy?" is a question. The quotes you made are political statements from a political organization. You didn't need all that to ask the question that you claim to be seeking the answer to. What you were doing was cheapening women's health issues, which are actual issues affecting billions of women world wide, with anecdotal evidence that doesn't even have a reference in an attempt to equate men's problems with individual doctors with women's abortion rights issues. I read the whole article from which you quote. I know what they were doing. If you don't, you are politically naive.


You go, girl!

When I was 36 and having never fathered a child I attempted to obtain a vasectomy...answering honestly the 1st three times with three different physicians, I was turned down by all three.

And their replies were a variety of reasons which made them out to me - to be some controlling motherfuckers who I didn't want to associate with further for my future health & welfare concerns.

I won't ever know if the fourth physician was trying to put his or a political agenda upon me, as when I requested he merely said... "You're in good health, schedule an appointment."

Done finally at age 37.

When a sane human male requests the procedure, of sound mind & body, what business is it of any physician to deny the procedure - just because "You might change your mind later." or "You just haven't met the right woman yet." or "This may be a costly decision you'll regret later, think it over."

"Hey motherfuckers, I've thought about it for several years and ... oh, go fuck yourself!"

I knew I liked you for various reasons, Ruthie... thanks for being consistent above all else.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Ruthie
Posted: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:48:16 PM

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Location: United States
Plushbunny wrote:
No permission from wife required here in Australia. Hard for a husband to do it sneakily though and not tell his wife since he needs to come home and put a bag of frozen peas on his balls..lol In my experience, women have a hard time convincing men to have a vasectomy. I think some men are worried it will somehow affect their manhood.


No permission from the wife is necessary in the United States either, which is what I've been trying to say. Any man who can't get a doctor to perform a vasectomy can find another doctor. I can also pretty much guarantee that when he goes to get his vasectomy that there won't be a crowd of howling lunatics standing outside his urologist's office shouting that he's going to hell.

WellMadeMale wrote:
When a sane human male requests the procedure, of sound mind & body, what business is it of any physician to deny the procedure - just because "You might change your mind later." or "You just haven't met the right woman yet." or "This may be a costly decision you'll regret later, think it over."


It shouldn't be anybody's business but the man seeking the vasectomy. If a man doesn't want to have children, nobody should be able to force him to have them. If a doctor provides vasectomies, he should provide them without question to any man who requests one. It isn't any of the doctor's business if he's conferred with his wife or not, or how he may feel about the decision in the future, any more than it's a doctor's business if a woman has conferred with her husband about health procedures she wants.

These are all privacy issues, and the government isn't the only enemy of privacy. Individuals and institutions take an interest in other people's business too, especially religious institutions. There are always people trying to tell other people how to live their lives. Prohibition was based on the theory that some people knew what was right for everyone else.

What gives people the idea that they know what's good for the rest of us?

If a person doesn't have the right to make medical decisions about their own body, what rights do they have? Which part of a person's body does the government have an interest in? My opinion is that they hold no interest in any part of my body, and neither does the Pope, Focus on the Family, or the National Right to Life Committee.



lafayettemister
Posted: Saturday, July 27, 2013 6:49:24 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,372
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Ruthie wrote:


It shouldn't be anybody's business but the man seeking the vasectomy. If a man doesn't want to have children, nobody should be able to force him to have them. If a doctor provides vasectomies, he should provide them without question to any man who requests one. It isn't any of the doctor's business if he's conferred with his wife or not, or how he may feel about the decision in the future, any more than it's a doctor's business if a woman has conferred with her husband about health procedures she wants.

These are all privacy issues, and the government isn't the only enemy of privacy. Individuals and institutions take an interest in other people's business too, especially religious institutions. There are always people trying to tell other people how to live their lives. Prohibition was based on the theory that some people knew what was right for everyone else.

What gives people the idea that they know what's good for the rest of us?

If a person doesn't have the right to make medical decisions about their own body, what rights do they have? Which part of a person's body does the government have an interest in? My opinion is that they hold no interest in any part of my body, and neither does the Pope, Focus on the Family, or the National Right to Life Committee.





I don't know what all the hubbub was about. I'm in complete agreement with everything you said here.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Saturday, July 27, 2013 7:39:24 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,627
Whether he's married or not, I don't see why a man needs his SO's consent before having a vasectomy. The same as I don't think a woman needs her partner's consent for any other form of birth control. It should be between him and his doctor.

Personally, if the possibility of wanting children in the future had ever been discussed with my SO, I would want to be at least told afterwards, if not asked beforehand.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, July 27, 2013 8:57:51 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,627
I agree, a man shouldn't need his wife's permission to have this procedure done.

Having said that, if my husband had gone and got one without discussing it and telling me that was his wish, that's a whole new ball game. If I hadn't had my kids, I would have divorced him.

Imagine the situation where the wife wants a family and he doesn't. He goes off on a "fishing trip" and has the procedure done without telling her. How many years of heartache does she endure before the truth comes out?



Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:13:36 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,627
Not sure how I feel about it.

My family is a mixed one, so this may sound a little confusing. My dad had 4 children before getting with my mom, and my mom had one child before getting with my dad. After my mom had her second child, (my dad's first child with my mom), which is one of my older brothers, she got pregnant again but had a miscarriage, after the miscarriage she wanted to get a tubal ligation. But they needed my dad's approval to do it, my dad didn't approve so they didn't do the procedure. It was the same process after my mom's third child, after me and finally after my younger brother was born, my dad approved the tubal ligation. So they did the procedure.

It hurts a little knowing that my mom didn't want kids after having a miscarriage shortly after she had my older brother. So me, one of my older sisters and my little brother were accidents. They used condoms, but those don't always work.

Anyway, they needed approval from my dad to give my mom a tubal ligation (tube tying procedure). I'm not sure how I feel about it because on one hand if they didn't, I wouldn't be alive. On the other hand, my mom's body probably wouldn't be in such a bad shape if she didn't birth 5 children.

If the man doesn't want children and neither does his wife, then he should be able to get it. I don't think he should be able to run off and do it without giving his wife the heads up. If his wife knows about it, he should be able to do it. If he's single, he should be able to do it only if he's absolutely sure he doesn't want kids. If he's married he should at least consult his wife before doing it. If his wife doesn't want him to get it, then he shouldn't be able to. You never know when you'll change your mind. What if you get it, then later decide you really do want kids? What then?
Mazza
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:38:12 AM

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Vasectomy isn't a subject with which I'm overly familiar, however, I can still voice my opinion on this.

I would like to think that any doctor of worth would discuss such an important procedure with their patient; the implications on health, libido, the permanence etc and of course a good doctor would also ask about the patient's partner and if this was a subject they had agreed upon and discussed thoroughly.

Certainly, I imagine that in a partnership, it would be beneficial for the partner to be aware of what the whole process involved, the effects that it might have upon their relationship (if any, as I say, it's not a subject I know a huge amount about) and that sort of thing.

As for a woman having to give consent in order that their man be able to obtain a vasectomy? I really can't see how this could possibly be legally binding? To be honest, it sounds like one of these ridiculous stipulations put in place to prevent lawsuits - I'd be more interested in WHY they think they need the woman's say so?

I guess that to a man in a good relationship, well, having his partner's consent is no big deal - what it should mean is that she is equally aware of what's going to happen to her partner. Certainly it's a much less invasive or serious procedure than the female equivalent, isn't it?

If it's a big deal to him, well, he should vote with his feet and go elsewhere.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:34:35 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,288
Location: Cakeland, United States
htowngirl1990 wrote:
Not sure how I feel about it.

If the man doesn't want children and neither does his wife, then he should be able to get it. I don't think he should be able to run off and do it without giving his wife the heads up. If his wife knows about it, he should be able to do it. If he's single, he should be able to do it only if he's absolutely sure he doesn't want kids. If he's married he should at least consult his wife before doing it. If his wife doesn't want him to get it, then he shouldn't be able to. You never know when you'll change your mind. What if you get it, then later decide you really do want kids? What then?


If a man is single and he wants a vasectomy, whose right is it but his own, to seek and obtain the procedure? The way you're stating it in your remarks - makes it appear that you wish a law should be written and enforced. That the man should be made to sit in front of a committee or a governing body to plead his case for what he wishes to do with his own reproductive glands.

What do you do if you decide later that you want kids? Boo hoo!

How about stepping up to the plate and adopting one of those children that a mother is forced to give up because she cannot raise the baby on her own. If more couples or financially capable single people (hetero and gay) would and could do this... Wouldn't that really be the way to go?

I've read your remarks here and in the abortion thread... at least you're being consistent.

I just don't agree with where you want to draw your guidelines. It's people like you who I wish to tell --

You live your own life and do as you please, and as long as what you do doesn't encroach in any way, shape or form upon how I wish to live my life... we'll get along just fucking fine.

If you try to impose your concepts on me - you'll have invited hell to pay.



If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Dani
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:51:09 AM

Rank: Big-Haired Bitch

Joined: 12/25/2010
Posts: 4,648
Location: Under Your Bed, United States
htowngirl1990 wrote:
Not sure how I feel about it.

My family is a mixed one, so this may sound a little confusing. My dad had 4 children before getting with my mom, and my mom had one child before getting with my dad. After my mom had her second child, (my dad's first child with my mom), which is one of my older brothers, she got pregnant again but had a miscarriage, after the miscarriage she wanted to get a tubal ligation. But they needed my dad's approval to do it, my dad didn't approve so they didn't do the procedure. It was the same process after my mom's third child, after me and finally after my younger brother was born, my dad approved the tubal ligation. So they did the procedure.

It hurts a little knowing that my mom didn't want kids after having a miscarriage shortly after she had my older brother. So me, one of my older sisters and my little brother were accidents. They used condoms, but those don't always work.

Anyway, they needed approval from my dad to give my mom a tubal ligation (tube tying procedure). I'm not sure how I feel about it because on one hand if they didn't, I wouldn't be alive. On the other hand, my mom's body probably wouldn't be in such a bad shape if she didn't birth 5 children.

If the man doesn't want children and neither does his wife, then he should be able to get it. I don't think he should be able to run off and do it without giving his wife the heads up. If his wife knows about it, he should be able to do it. If he's single, he should be able to do it only if he's absolutely sure he doesn't want kids. If he's married he should at least consult his wife before doing it. If his wife doesn't want him to get it, then he shouldn't be able to. You never know when you'll change your mind. What if you get it, then later decide you really do want kids? What then?


The right thing to do would to at least discuss with his spouse, but overall, he doesn't need permission. Not from his wife or anyone else. If he does indeed change his mind, a vasectomy can be reversed. Also, if there's even the slightest chance that he may want kids, he could also freeze some of his sperm beforehand. And I would imagine that any man opting for any procedure done to his penis is pretty damned sure about it.

But 'should be able to' shouldn't apply here. If he wants it, he gets it. Point. Blank. Period.



Baby put your arms around me, tell me I'm a problem...

angieseroticpen
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:48:37 AM

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Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 762
Location: United Kingdom
dex69 wrote:
It makes no sense to me at all why a doctor would need a wifes' permission to perform a vasectomy on her husband........



A couple of things that have suddenly occurred to me on the subject is 'What about the possibility of the wife suing the Doctor for not seeking her consent?' We all know that in this day and age people will sue you if you even look at them the wrong way! Also, 'What is the position of the AMA (Americal Medical Assoication) on this?' Would they not view this as malpractice.

Then of course we have the scenario of the poor husband going home to his wife after the op and telling her about it. I think there is a chance that he might end up with a 'Lorena Bobbitt' job as well laughing3

“When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.”
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:27:40 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,627
WellMadeMale wrote:


If a man is single and he wants a vasectomy, whose right is it but his own, to seek and obtain the procedure? The way you're stating it in your remarks - makes it appear that you wish a law should be written and enforced. That the man should be made to sit in front of a committee or a governing body to plead his case for what he wishes to do with his own reproductive glands.

What do you do if you decide later that you want kids? Boo hoo!

How about stepping up to the plate and adopting one of those children that a mother is forced to give up because she cannot raise the baby on her own. If more couples or financially capable single people (hetero and gay) would and could do this... Wouldn't that really be the way to go?

I've read your remarks here and in the abortion thread... at least you're being consistent.

I just don't agree with where you want to draw your guidelines. It's people like you who I wish to tell --

You live your own life and do as you please, and as long as what you do doesn't encroach in any way, shape or form upon how I wish to live my life... we'll get along just fucking fine.

If you try to impose your concepts on me - you'll have invited hell to pay.



I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia the waiting times for adopting babies is roughly 8-10 years, and the cut off age is around 39 (I think) but it's somewhere around there. If you are unfortunate enough to reach that age while you are still on the waiting list for adoption, you can forget it. Your time's up.

Hell, I think adoption it's a wonderful idea and I for one would gladly do this but it's not something that is an option for me. If I had approx $60 000 - $100 000 I could try overseas adoption or surrogacy but my piggy bank doesn't hold that much.


EDITED TO ADD: I'm not suggesting men shouldn't have vasectomies so more babies can be born. I've already posted my opinion on vasectomies earlier in the thread. I was pointing out how difficult it can be to adopt in some countries.
Dani
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:39:57 PM

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trinket wrote:


I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia the waiting times for adopting babies is roughly 8-10 years, and the cut off age is around 39 (I think) but it's somewhere around there. If you are unfortunate enough to reach that age while you are still on the waiting list for adoption, you can forget it. Your time's up.

Hell, I think adoption it's a wonderful idea and I for one would gladly do this but it's not something that is an option for me. If I had approx $60 000 - $100 000 I could try overseas adoption or surrogacy but my piggy bank doesn't hold that much.



I think that's kind of the point he was making, not that I speak for him or anything. But so many people are quick to suggest the adoption route, but it's not always plausible. The old, 'Somebody's gonna want it' route is more ideal than some people seem to think.

It's a very absolute way to approach a problem that is far from absolute. Not everyone who can afford to adopt is looking to adopt. Not everyone who is looking to adopt can afford to adopt. So it just becomes, "Make these babies and see what happens." Adoption isn't a guarantee. Not having kids is a guarantee. My 2 cents



Baby put your arms around me, tell me I'm a problem...

sprite
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:46:51 PM

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it's a guys body, and he should have the right to do as he wishes without anyone else's "permission". would it be wise to talk to his wife about it first? yep. but in the long run, it's his choice. pro-choice goes both ways.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
Ruthie
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 9:32:48 PM

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WellMadeMale wrote:




How about stepping up to the plate and adopting one of those children that a mother is forced to give up because she cannot raise the baby on her own. If more couples or financially capable single people (hetero and gay) would and could do this... Wouldn't that really be the way to go?




What a great idea. Everyone doesn't need to make their own kid, there are plenty who need homes.
Agrippa
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 5:40:19 PM

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Joined: 7/29/2013
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Location: United Kingdom
A lot of interesting views here. Seems to me there are some fundamental moral choices that have to be made by both parties (the patient and the doctor/surgeon).

First of all the man would seem to have a moral duty to have come to this decision with the full knowledge of his partner/wife. At a basic relationship level that would appear to be the least that is required, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who would make such a decision unilaterally and/or secretly. I am sure any man who has a partner who wishes to have any surgical procedure resulting in sterility would expect the subject to be raised and discussed carefully and rationally. That is called respect.

Whether or not there is a direct correlation with a woman undergoing breast reduction/enhancement or similar procedure, in my opinion, is moot. Mutual respect in a relationship would demand it,

Having said that a man who wished to have a vasectomy without the knowledge of his partner/wife can be argued that he has a right to do so even if keeping that secret, in my opinion, would be morally bankrupt. I'm sure, however with a bit of thought we could all hypothesise a situation where it may be desirable for such secrets to be kept but in the main, surely sharing is better.

As to the doctor/surgeon he/she also must consider their own moral position. It's no good telling them that it is your right to have a vasectomy irrespective of their professional AND personal opinion. If they firmly believe they need proof that the matter has been fully explored and discussed by the couple (for the well-being of all parties), then I believe it is their right to have it demonstrated to them. After all, they have their consciences as well. Also it must be good practice to advise the matter to be discussed with the partner/wife at the very least. If you don't like that kind of care, look elsewhere.

It is easy to adopt a position of moral indignation, and we all like to have a bit of righteous outrage against unfairness etc. but I don't think this is such an easy target as first it may appear.
sprite
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 5:49:11 PM

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Agrippa wrote:
A lot of interesting views here. Seems to me there are some fundamental moral choices that have to be made by both parties (the patient and the doctor/surgeon).

First of all the man would seem to have a moral duty to have come to this decision with the full knowledge of his partner/wife. At a basic relationship level that would appear to be the least that is required, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who would make such a decision unilaterally and/or secretly. I am sure any man who has a partner who wishes to have any surgical procedure resulting in sterility would expect the subject to be raised and discussed carefully and rationally. That is called respect.

Whether or not there is a direct correlation with a woman undergoing breast reduction/enhancement or similar procedure, in my opinion, is moot. Mutual respect in a relationship would demand it,

Having said that a man who wished to have a vasectomy without the knowledge of his partner/wife can be argued that he has a right to do so even if keeping that secret, in my opinion, would be morally bankrupt. I'm sure, however with a bit of thought we could all hypothesise a situation where it may be desirable for such secrets to be kept but in the main, surely sharing is better.

As to the doctor/surgeon he/she also must consider their own moral position. It's no good telling them that it is your right to have a vasectomy irrespective of their professional AND personal opinion. If they firmly believe they need proof that the matter has been fully explored and discussed by the couple (for the well-being of all parties), then I believe it is their right to have it demonstrated to them. After all they have their consciences as well. Also it must be good practice to advise the mater to be discussed with the partner/wife at the very least. If you don't like that kind of care, look elsewhere.

It is easy to adopt a position of moral indignation, and we all like to have a bit of righteous outrage against unfairness etc. but I don't think this is such an easy target as first it may appear.


it actually is really easy, if you strip it down to the bare essentials. vasectomies are legal. any man who is over the age of 18 has the right to have one as long as he is not being coerced or forced into it. no one should have the right to deny him his choice. now, ethically? yes, if he is married, he should talk it over with his wife - that's between the couple, tho. legally, he should have every right to walk into a doctors office and expect his wishes to be respected without being preached to. it's just this simple:

"Doc, i'm 18, i'm sober, i am here by my own free will, i have read up on what a vasectomy is, i understand that it isn't reversable, what the dangers are, and the side effects can be. it's my body and i know what i am doing. i want you to snip me."

*snip*

end of scenario.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
michk111
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 6:34:25 PM

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I agree with Sprite.

If a man wants to go to his doctor and make an informed decision he should be allowed to. The doctor should not impede this process because he/she feels the SO should be involved in this decision. As with abortion rights if I choose to have an abortion that is my decision. Taking the Morning After Pill(Plan B) would be my decision and I pretty sure the pharmacy doesn't say "stop we need to talk with the sperm donor".

I do think that having the discussion with my SO is important for my relationship but the status of my relationship is not the concern of the doctor.
Agrippa
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 6:36:39 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 7/29/2013
Posts: 50
Location: United Kingdom
sprite wrote:


it actually is really easy, if you strip it down to the bare essentials. vasectomies are legal. any man who is over the age of 18 has the right to have one as long as he is not being coerced or forced into it. no one should have the right to deny him his choice. now, ethically? yes, if he is married, he should talk it over with his wife - that's between the couple, tho. legally, he should have every right to walk into a doctors office and expect his wishes to be respected without being preached to. it's just this simple:

"Doc, i'm 18, i'm sober, i am here by my own free will, i have read up on what a vasectomy is, i understand that it isn't reversable, what the dangers are, and the side effects can be. it's my body and i know what i am doing. i want you to snip me."

*snip*

end of scenario.




In my experience such matters are seldom easy - if they were, 2 pages of posts would be plenty of space to have resolved the issue 10 times over. I agree in the rights as you have described, however walking into a surgery and demanding the snip just doesn't cut it (if you'll pardon the pun).

After all, abortions are also legal - I am sure you wouldn't expect a doctor to perform one against their own moral beliefs. Any medical professional should be able to choose who they wish to treat and what protocols they choose for that treatment (at least in these types of elective surgeries). Doctors/surgeons don't live in an amoral bubble - they are part of the World as well and have their own thoughts, opinions and ideas. Indeed any such professional is opening him/herself up to malpractice suits if a proper duty of care is not followed. Irrespective of the cavalier "give me the snip coz I wants it" there are other considerations whether the 'snippee' likes it or not.
DLizze
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:19:31 PM

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Joined: 4/23/2011
Posts: 2,552
I believe that as a moral individual, I would have an obligation to discuss this with my partner, if I had one. I would not, however be morally obligated to follow her wishes if they were contrary to my own. I would expect my partner to treat me the same way, if the roles were reversed.

I believe the doctor should be allowed to make his (or her) own decision as to whether he (or she) is willing to perform a given procedure, and under what conditions. However, that said, if the doctor choses to practice under the aegis of a clinical setting, be it hospital, or some other care facility, he or she has an obligation to follow the rules of the facility. If those rules go against the doctor's personal precepts, he or she should end his association with it.

This kind of question is very similar to those I face in my profession as a civil engineer. I am obligated to do three things: design within the guidelines required by the jurisdiction within which I am working; protect my client's interest (i.e. design he least expensive alternative that meets the minimum requirements); and protect the interest of the public at large. Frequently, public interest dictates a design to a higher standard than that required by either of the other two requirements. Clients are notoriously stingy, and governments are notoriously slow in changing policy to remove design flaws. Therefore, I frequently find myself arguing strenuously to support my designs; and on occasion it has come down to my refusal to apply my seal and signature, unless the design is in accordance with what I know to be sound engineering, regardless of the regulations.



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sprite
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:30:10 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 14,517
Location: My Tower, United States
Agrippa wrote:




In my experience such matters are seldom easy - if they were, 2 pages of posts would be plenty of space to have resolved the issue 10 times over. I agree in the rights as you have described, however walking into a surgery and demanding the snip just doesn't cut it (if you'll pardon the pun).

After all, abortions are also legal - I am sure you wouldn't expect a doctor to perform one against their own moral beliefs. Any medical professional should be able to choose who they wish to treat and what protocols they choose for that treatment (at least in these types of elective surgeries). Doctors/surgeons don't live in an amoral bubble - they are part of the World as well and have their own thoughts, opinions and ideas. Indeed any such professional is opening him/herself up to malpractice suits if a proper duty of care is not followed. Irrespective of the cavalier "give me the snip coz I wants it" there are other considerations whether the 'snippee' likes it or not.


thing is, with abortions, when you walk into a clinic, the doctors are there specifically to perform abortions. just as in any other case, you'd want to go to someone who practiced that particular procedure. a man should be able to tell his doctor he wants a vasectomy and the doctor should be able to either say: hop up on the table and we'll have a go OR i don't really do that kind of stuff, son, but there's a reputable fellow down the hall - go talk to him. i get that there are specialists or that some doctors will only do certain things. if i had cancer, i'd expect to be sent to an oncologist. recently i had a bad infection that my GP arranged for me to met with a surgeon with after prescribing me anti-biotics - the cutting part he wasn't confident in - i'm fine with that.

what i'm not fine with is the doctor telling him that he shouldn't be doing it because of the doctor's beliefs. that's not his job. if he says, NO, you have a bad heart and it could kill you, that's one thing, but NO, i think it's ethically wrong, that's another. he's a doctor, not a counselor and certainly not a priest. he's not in charge of people's souls, he's in charge of their bodies. yes, he might not like it, but he is obliged to not to withhold treatment or at least guide you where to best find it.

bottom line is, if the doctor doesn't want to do it for whatever reason, fine, but he shouldn't be trying to talk someone out of it, merely doing what he's supposed to do, and that is, helping him find the best possible care so that he can have it down safely.

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CenterLine
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:48:32 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 7/19/2012
Posts: 541
Location: Cuddling with friends,, United States
I agree, that's is unfortunate. You seem to have some extremely intense views on the subject, and have sparked an excellent debate. I on the other hand, don't have a lot more to say on the subject than that, so I offer this perspective. I think it's unacceptable that we tell children (teenagers, mostly) that they have to have their parents' permission to gain access to contraception, or even cold medicine, as though the age of 18 mystically imbues a person with the knowledge and maturity requisite to make decisions about their health and person. Why couldn't that come later? Or earlier? I think it's ridiculous to tell a woman that she should or cannot have an abortion, or for that matter, her tubes tied.

I'm not discounting your point at all. It just made me think of many other things along similar lines.
1ball
Posted: Friday, August 02, 2013 11:19:45 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/13/2011
Posts: 970
Location: United States
It all boils down to rights and if you want to separate those into legal rights and moral rights to cover the cases when laws are immoral, that's fine with me.

By what right can anybody require a medical service provider to provide a service they don't want to provide? By no right other than a contract voluntarily entered by the provider. So of course the provider has a right to require the consult with the spouse, because the provider has a right to freedom of association and that includes a right to refuse any service to anyone for any reason, unless a contract is involved.

So does the husband have a moral right to get a vasectomy without his wife's foreknowledge? Yes, if he can find a provider and if he doesn't have a marriage contract with a clause against it. He has a right to freedom of association and that includes a right to not father children.

But does he have a moral obligation to tell his wife that he has become sterile? Yes. Even though it isn't spelled out in a marriage contract, there are certain implicit good faith obligations in a partnership. She's possibly incurring health risk and/or expense as a result of birth control that would no longer be required and he has an obligation to their partnership to avoid risks and expenses by omission of information from the partner. She might even be incurring health risk or expense by trying to become pregnant and the same reasoning would apply.

Would she have grounds for divorce if she discovered that he got a vasectomy without her foreknowledge? Yes, because she has a right to freedom of association and if she wants to associate with someone who can father children after dissolving the partnership with the sterile spouse, nobody has a right to prevent that.

Should he reach a consensus with her before getting the vasectomy? She has no right to that, but if he values the partnership and wants to preserve it, then yes.

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Mongolift
Posted: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 3:17:49 AM

Rank: Rookie Scribe

Joined: 8/3/2013
Posts: 3
Location: United States
I had to have the wife's permission to get snipped. The Dr would not go forward until my wife was in the room discussing this with him, and she had to sign the consent. At the time I thought it was weird but it did not really ring any larger bells. Now that I am older it does seem to be a double standered. To be fair, my wife and I had already discussed this and I had no issue with getting her permission, I just am now thinking that it is a double standered and really not right.
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