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Time to Ban and Burn confederate flags Options · View
BiMale73
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:26:35 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 7/4/2013
Posts: 433
Location: Basement
JulesR wrote:
1. You have no constitutional 'right' to be offended. Get a thicker skin or move to someplace perfect.


I think you mean "You don't have the right not to be offended."

JulesR wrote:
3. Yeah, slavery was bad. It's a given. It's been over for longer than anyone alive today. It's history. Learn from it.
4. First, before we burn the Stars 'n Bars, let's burn the Union Jack, the hated symbol of British oppression over their own citizen colonials.


I'm no expert in American history, but I believe British oppression (in Amerca) is over for a longer time than slavery.

Mazza
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:35:28 PM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,048
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
naughtynurse wrote:


You could easily be right, I was raised in the country, but the north. I had/have many friends who flew the flag up there for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Now that I live in the south I've been exposed to it even more. However, now that I am living in a more urban area, its less of a thing.

To me the biggest symbol for hatred and bigotry will always be just a good old fashioned cross.


We have similar things in Scotland, you know (which I can better opine on, given that this is where I grew up), but it's more of a religious thing, well, religion fueled it and kept it alive to the present day. Which is why I quoted NN...

As far as I can see, the only reason we used symbols was so that people who couldn't read or whatever had something they could understand, identify with even though they couldn't read? I mean, religion started off with the best of intentions - telling stories to teach and educate people who had little or no education, right? Of course, power and money corrupted that pretty quickly, in my opinion, and it became a tool to control and sway people - pretty much in the same way that the flag/slur/symbol does now, yeah? Or to give them identity, a crowd they could feel safe in? Sadly, it's pretty easy to misrepresent things (especially in the internet "age"), change things to suit our purposes - I believe that the example of the swastika has already been raised. Symbols are powerful, no doubt about that...

To me, the flag conjures images from my youth, of the Dukes of Hazzard and yeee-haw, like someone else said before me - living in the UK, American history was never taught to us - actually it's interesting, having gotten to know people from various countries here on Lush, comparing how we were taught and the things that push our buttons (no, not in THAT way, although that differs too) I've read through the whole thread and gotten myself a little education here tonight - every day's a school day on Lush, isn't it? Interesting the way that some people will add fuel to the fire too, just for the sake of debate.

Here, the disquiet I'm referring to is between catholics and protestants - and yes, many people have lost their lives over it or just had their lives made hell, in Ireland too, of course. My family were/are predominantly protestant (I wasn't brought up with religion though, one of the few good things my parents did for me) and even in this day and age, there were factions who were not happy about my choice of a catholic husband (of course, they're delighted at our subsequent divorce, but that's another story)

The way that specific football teams in Scotland came to represent one religion or the other, the way it was used to maintain disquiet amongst people whose education was perhaps lacking, or had been indoctrinated not to know any better.

Things are changing though, albeit slowly, but I still find the Orange Walk hugely offensive...

I think that the best way to bring normality about a flag, or a walk, a slur, or whatever is actually simple, well, relatively simple (idealistic, sure, but that's me)

We need to better educate people (it always comes down to this for me), teach the true meaning and history behind the symbol/flag/slur, help them to understand why it's not acceptable to most, rather than trying to force them to disassociate from it - hell, if you told me I wasn't allowed to do or say something, I'd rail against you for the hell of it. Lead by example, teach tolerance, understanding, history, forgiveness, all that good stuff...

yes, it takes a while, but eventually it sinks in... I hope...
Buz
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:20:36 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,832
Location: Atlanta, United States
sprite wrote:


i am painfully aware of the atrocities dealt upon the native americans - our history is a checkered one, there is little doubt about that. yes, i have read Bury My Heart at WK, and other histories. in truth, there are not many countries who can claim not to be built on bloodshed and horror, not on this continent, not on any other. that doesn't take away what the confederate flag is a symbol of to many.

while you're reading history, read about how many africans died on slave ships crossing the ocean, packed like sardines in their holds for months. there were no good records kept, but it's estimated that it was in the millions, not thousands, that died on those boats. read about the conditions just of the crossing itself. it'll turn your stomach, i promise. and those that survived were worked brutally, enslaved for the rest of their, usually rather short, lives. the women were raped, their children born into slavery, NEVER knowing freedom and even after the war, it wasn't until the 60s when blacks started to finally see the beginning of having the same rights as the rest of America.


You are very right Sprite. Slavery was a horrible nightmare. It actually still is is some places in the world today. Those people were stolen from their homes, separated from their families, sold at markets for transport in totally inhumane conditions on those slave ships. The movie Amastad, by Steven Spielberg does a good job of depicting the horrors of happened on a slave ship. Then sold again when they got to the Americas. As slaves, beaten , whipped, worked mercilessly, husbands and wives separated and sold, and their children sold. It's unbelievable but true. Even after slavery, Black people had to live and suffer as second class citizens, being denied equal rights, etc. for a hundred years. Unfortunately prejudice still exists.

Buz
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:28:06 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,832
Location: Atlanta, United States
LadyX wrote:


Of course not. For one thing, the United States won the Civil War, so despite the fact that horrible things have occurred (and continue to occur) under that flag, it remains the symbol of this nation. Its "meaning" is complex, but its purpose is to signify the USA's sovereign presence wherever it's flown. The flag known today as the confederate flag (since it's technical name/original use is in dispute by many) is a symbol of a defeated army and nation. It's practical necessity is moot; the Confederate States of America hasn't existed for 148 years and counting. So what does it stand for, given that it has no real purpose in 2013? I'm somewhat surprised to learn that while its a viscerally offensive symbol to me and millions of others, based on history and its obviously inflammatory and racist use by many today, there's apparently a large number of people for whom it stands for something on par with mom, baseball, and apple pie. In either case, there's no reason to replace the Confederate flag with anything, since there is no Confederacy. Banning it is supported by almost nobody; it wouldn't do any good, or change anyone's mind, anyway.


Very good points Xuani. The Confederate flag is something for museums and movies to me, relegated to history. The American flag, our Stars & Stripes, despite our nation's mistakes, to me stands for the continuing struggle for Liberty, Freedom, Justice, and Opportunity for all. Even if its never fully realized on this planet, at least we should keep trying.

CharlotteRusse1
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:43:07 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/9/2011
Posts: 202
Location: United States
JulesR wrote:
To those who were so upset with my 'you have no right' - I was referring to a 'constitutional right' not your personal liberty. Calling me a moron because I refuse to be labeled is kinda crass. In point of fact, a direct descendant of my dad's walked the Trail of Tears and yet...you don't see me rallying around saying 'burn the stars and stripes'. I suppose since the ass at the rally was also holding a flag in tribute the US Marines we should burn those, after all guilt by association. I'm weary of this entire discussion. You can't see past your own white guilt and privilege and it's made you narrow minded and petty. Devolving to name calling in lieru of a cogent argument means you lost your argument. Some one said they were sick and tired of being told how to think...do you read what you write? guilty of the same thing.


I think you've misconstrued the argument of most of the people replying here. Most of the people replying here do *not* think this battle flag should be banned. However, they understand that this flag is offensive to many, and we certainly do have a right to be offended, and even more so, the freedom of speech to *say* we are offended.

Get it? The guy in the picture has the right to wave that flag. People have the right to be offended by it. People have the right to say they are offended by it. We have the right to think that the guy waving the flag is bigoted. You have the right to disagree. I think that those who are in denial that that particular flag is offensive to many people are walking around with blinders on. There are certainly many, many people who find it offensive.

Writer of amateur erotica since 2011..See the latest at:

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:50:30 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
I agree with Charlotte 100%.

The words, "one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all!" are supposed to mean just that. All means all.
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:23:44 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
Angie57 wrote:


It was an ugly time BUT please read my earlier statement THe Cival War WAS NOT just about slavery it was more states rights! Half of the confederate states knew it was morally wrong and were exploring oprtions but it was finacial suicide please learn history.

I bet you dont always do everything perfectly corecct if you did you most likely wouldnt be here.
Sorry i dont mean to insult you Its a flag and we have to remember how ba things were lest they will return.
Those who want to argue that things are no better are showing their ignorance. We have a long way to go but nowhere near what they once were.
This isnt directed to you sir just in general
I will defend your right to disagree with me or anyone to the death that is what this country was founded on
Still Friends i hope!


No war is just about one thing... duh. And don't you go raising your type at me, makes you look crazier than a shit-house rat. You just settle down now... It was about state's rights, yes, and the main right they feared would eventually be taken from them was the right to have slaves because getting rid of them would be financially disastrous because their whole economy was based on slave labor. So they seceded.

How dare you tell me to learn history. You learn spelling and punctuation first before throwing around statements like that.

And I do, do everything perfect. I'm a genius. I've been perfect since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Everyone knows that. Everything you said after claiming I wasn't perfect was deemed irrelevant.



Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:27:11 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
BiMale73 wrote:


I'm no expert in American history, but I believe British oppression (in Amerca) is over for a longer time than slavery.


Taxation without representation isn't exactly akin to slavery either.



Ruthie
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:20:07 PM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,390
Location: United States
The St. Andrews cross, used on the Confederate battle flag, is from the flag of Scotland, incorporated, along with St. George's cross, in the flag of the United Kingdoms of England and Scotland, also called the Union Jack. There are no stars on the Union Jack, of course. The stars on the battle flag of the CSA represent the states of the Confederacy.

I suppose that the St. Andrews cross was used to show the Scottish heritage of the flags designer, but I don't know. Why should I read history when I can come to Lush?

The Lincoln administration didn't want the southern states to secede from the Union because it meant losing a large portion of the tariff revenues that the government depended. There was no income tax then, the federal government was dependent on tariffs and taxes on things like alcohol to raise revenue. If there had been an income tax, of course, the government would have resented losing the large tax base of the southern planting class as well.

Lincoln's main concern was to keep the country united. He said that if he could do it by not freeing a single slave he'd do that, or if he could do it by freeing all the slaves, he'd do that. He didn't express any real preference. He wanted to send all the freed slaves to South America to work in mines. He never had an intention of freeing the slaves willy nilly and letting them become part of society. Still, there was a general belief in the south that his election meant that slavery would be outlawed.

The south was operating an agrarian economy based on slave labor. The way slavery was practised in the south was generational. It was akin to the old European feudal system, but with slaves belonging to the gentry instead of the land of the gentry. Slaves were bought and sold, but they were also born the property of the plantation owner. The system was purely evil from the beginning until the end. There were no redeeming qualities.

When it was ended, for awhile the federal government tried to enforce equality for black people, but that only lasted a short time. Reconstruction ended before it had any real effect on the southern social system. Sharecropping replaced slavery as the new form of southern feudalism. Organizations like the KKK were formed to maintain the status quo. Former slaves were kept in subjugation by Jim Crow laws for the next hundred years.

During the civil rights movement, the stars and bars of the old Confederacy was used as a symbol against segregation. Georgia, and other southern states, changed their flags to include the stars and bars after the Supreme Court decision, Brown vs. Board of Education was handed down. Every civil rights march or effort could count on seeing the stars and bars. It was clearly used as a decisive symbol to say that all people aren't equal. The voting rights act changed some things about the south, but the overall bigotry that was present after the civil war is still there among a significant portion of the population.

The people who use it at klan rallies know what it means to them. The halfwit, slack jawed, hillbilly yokel in front of the White House knows what it means to him. Why should we pretend it means anything different?

It's time to consign that flag to history.

Anyone who takes offence at my calling the guy in the picture a halfwit, slack jawed, hillbilly yokel needs to look closer at the picture. That is what the picture represents. I can't believe that's even a real person. It is too good to be true. It looks like a northern photographer's idea of what a southerner looks like. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out it was staged.
Magical_felix
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:40:13 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
Ruthie wrote:
The St. Andrews cross --



-- wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out it was staged.


This post is dead on.



WellMadeMale
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 3:51:30 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,301
Location: Cakeland, United States
Ruthie wrote:

It's time to consign that flag to history.


Have you ever given thought to campaigning for the presidency?

Best post of this thread!

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
peteyx
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:50:41 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 37
Location: United Kingdom
On a similar theme folks I can recommend a very good cheap read from Amazon (downloaded to my kindle ) cost less than £2 (too little to bother converting to $ ) and it brought tears to my eyes it wasn't cruel beatings although that did occur it was just the relentless destruction of a human soul. Its the autobiography of a slave girl and is called 'Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl Written by Herself' author Harriet Ann Jacobs and covers the time prior to and just after emancipation.

I try not to be intolerant it is bloody difficult sometimes ;). Peace
Guest
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:58:34 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
If you look hard enough, almost every symbol in the world can be found offensive, people just need to chill out. History is important but we can't change it.
jollylolly
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:42:05 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/24/2012
Posts: 367
Location: Texas, United States
Let the neo-Confederates wave their little flag, it just makes the bigots easier to identify and avoid. The ones who put on a suit and tie and publicly disavow their white supremacist views are more frightening.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:48:51 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
Magma_Boils_333 wrote:
If you look hard enough, almost every symbol in the world can be found offensive, people just need to chill out. History is important but we can't change it.

Totally agree and that is the point im trying to make. I get jumped because of spelling. It's not spelling it's typing. Felix you are perfect perfect what I wont say you took it personally. What I meant by states rights is not being told to do things no questions asked kinda like the King of England remember that?
No worries last time I will post on this!
Guest
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:15:31 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
True or false? Throughout it's history this confederate flag has been a symbol of defiance and hate. Where were/are all the defenders of this flag of honor when it's being used for hateful purposes? After all, it was and is happening right in front of thier faces. Please don't use the that the flag was hijacked and those who misuse it are protected by the 1st amendment. There are are methods to effectively deal with the issue other than violating one's rights. The KKK was founded by veterans of the Confederate Army, at least one co-founder was a Confederate General. So, you could argue that the KKK has as much right to use the Southern Cross as a symbol as anyone else. The KKK and some others have a different idea of what the flag stands for.


Sure place it in a museum as part of American history. Aslo as a reminder of where we came from as well. Put the ashes of burned Confederate Flags right next to it to show how far we have come.














Ruthie
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:44:51 PM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,390
Location: United States
peteyx wrote:
On a similar theme folks I can recommend a very good cheap read from Amazon (downloaded to my kindle ) cost less than £2 (too little to bother converting to $ ) and it brought tears to my eyes it wasn't cruel beatings although that did occur it was just the relentless destruction of a human soul. Its the autobiography of a slave girl and is called 'Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl Written by Herself' author Harriet Ann Jacobs and covers the time prior to and just after emancipation.

I try not to be intolerant it is bloody difficult sometimes ;). Peace


You can save yourself £2 and read the html at: http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/jacobs/jacobs.html

This work is out of copyright, and in the public domain.
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 12:54:15 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
Angie57 wrote:

I get jumped because of spelling. It's not spelling it's typing. Felix you are perfect perfect what I wont say you took it personally.


First it was your spelling and grammar, but now you're not even being coherent. A cat in a room full of rocking chairs has a better chance of getting out unscathed than you do writing a grammatically correct paragraph. It's appalling because you said you were a teacher. Appalling I say.

Angie57 wrote:

What I meant by states rights is not being told to do things no questions asked kinda like the King of England remember that?


Yeah, they didn't want to be told to get rid of slaves eventually. If slavery had never existed the south may have never seceded.



Guest
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 2:50:44 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
Anyway, just let it go.



Guest
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:50:58 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
sprite wrote:
just a thought. if you were standing outside waving a nazi swastika flat in front of a synoguoge, would it be considered offensive? if so, how is that different from waving a confederate flat outside of the white house while the standing president is black? to some, perhaps, it is a symbol of pride, hard work, family, all that, but to most African-Americans it is a symbol of slavery, pure and simple.


Yeah, Sprite, you nailed it right on the head. I have no problem with freedom of speech, expression, ect, but as a Black/African-American man; I can't look at a confederate flag without thinking gettin' a bit upset and one of my closet college friends has one in his dorm room.
Milik_Redman
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:59:56 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4,409
Location: somewhere deep under the Earth, United States
Any denial that this is a symbol with strong racist overtones is shallow at best. Anyone who hangs one must be aware on some level how it is perceived. I just cannot believe otherwise.

β€œIt is a great thing to know your vices.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero


My New collaboration with Dirty _D is one I am extremely proud to offer:






LASARDaddy
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 5:01:44 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 7/22/2013
Posts: 753
Location: Windsor, United States
ABSOLUTELY!

I resent being lambasted by ignorance' and anybody that promotes slavery as an institution is ignorant.

"The South Will Rise Again"

My response to that since I was a child has been, "Yeah, and the North will kick your ass again." Or someone else will.

I am always a gentleman.
hillbillyfucker
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 7:35:52 PM

Rank: Rookie Scribe

Joined: 3/27/2013
Posts: 3
Location: United States
the confederate flag stands for a different reason than it used to. it stands for the history of the united states, it stands for one war thaat made this country what it is today. yes my profile pic is the grim in the confederate flag, but that dont mean shit. im from the north, and the rebel flag stands for a sense of freedom, and a sense of self being. and if u guys want to start arguments about the south, ask ur neighborhood rednecks what they think of the flag. its jst a part of history, and i will continue to fly my flag under ol' glory, and i fly them both proudly. so ask any redneck, who btw, is twice as likely to fight for this country, why they fly the flag.
Guest
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 8:04:38 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,425
Alrighty then. Thanks for stoppin by and letting us know how you feel.toast
Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:18:53 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
hillbillyfucker wrote:
so ask any redneck, who btw, is twice as likely to fight for this country


How did you come up with that?



TxPrincess
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:32:23 PM

Rank: The Resident Princess

Joined: 10/6/2012
Posts: 296
Location: The Best Part, United States
Magical_felix wrote:


How did you come up with that?


my My 2 cents ...... rednecks are not common folk.....they stand and fight for their country, women, religion, children....one place you don't want to be is on the wrong side of a redneck...they will tell you where you can go then show you how to get there.

Yes I am from Texas, Yes I fly MY State flag, Yes I fly MY country Flag, Yes I fly the confederate flag. I will do all this while wearing my boots, a smile, and my princess tiara on my cowboy hat.

If you have to ask "how did you come up with that" then you don't know anything about the pride of this country and of the south. I am not commenting to say anything other than we as American's have pride in what we believe in, but until you meet a Texan (a real one), you wont know true loyalty from someone, unless they have fought for this country we live in and call the "Home of the Brave".

The only other group of people I have met that have the pride of their country like the Texans and rednecks is that of the Military.

just The Princess' My 2 cents ......kisses

Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:57:23 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
TxPrincess wrote:


my My 2 cents ...... rednecks are not common folk.....they stand and fight for their country, women, religion, children....one place you don't want to be is on the wrong side of a redneck...they will tell you where you can go then show you how to get there.

Yes I am from Texas, Yes I fly MY State flag, Yes I fly MY country Flag, Yes I fly the confederate flag. I will do all this while wearing my boots, a smile, and my princess tiara on my cowboy hat.

If you have to ask "how did you come up with that" then you don't know anything about the pride of this country and of the south. I am not commenting to say anything other than we as American's have pride in what we believe in, but until you meet a Texan (a real one), you wont know true loyalty from someone, unless they have fought for this country we live in and call the "Home of the Brave".

The only other group of people I have met that have the pride of their country like the Texans and rednecks is that of the Military.

just The Princess' My 2 cents ......kisses


What is your definition of a "redneck" and does race have anything to do with wether a person is a "redneck" or not? This whole statement makes me wonder if you stereotype all groups of people in this way.

When I asked how he came up with that, I was asking about his two times more likely statement. How do you come up with that figure?



Dirty_D
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:06:22 PM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,218
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
Magical_felix wrote:


What is your definition of a "redneck" and does race have anything to do with wether a person is a "redneck" or not? This whole statement is makes me wonder if you stereotype all groups of people in this way.

When I asked how he came up with that, I was asking about his two times more likely statement. How do you come up with that figure?


No, I've met redneck blacks, whites, mexicans, asians, and others.

Rural labor class, primarily lower education, although not always. Typically fights change, democrats, and outside intervention.


Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:10:40 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,908
Location: California
naughtynurse wrote:


No, I've met redneck blacks, whites, mexicans, asians, and others.

Rural labor class, primarily lower education, although not always. Typically fights change, democrats, and outside intervention.


I really wish you would have let the self appointed princess answer.



Dirty_D
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:37:36 PM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,218
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
Magical_felix wrote:


I really wish you would have let the self appointed princess answer.


In that case, I'll retract my answer.


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