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Dancing_Doll
Posted: Friday, August 05, 2011 6:22:57 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,268
Location: West Coast
Back in the 60's and early 70's, it was completely legal to buy a leopard or panther in a department store like Harrod's as an exotic pet. Animals were harvested from across the world to be put into zoo's, baby orcas were caught off the coast of Iceland that were destined to end up performing for audience entertainment at marine parks and other exotics were bound for a life in traveling circuses.

None of this happens smoothly, of course.

There are endless cases of animal cruelty, questionable training methods, trainer/handler deaths when wild animals rebel or give in to their wild instincts. This is to say nothing of the often cramped cages and living structures and general loss of freedom of the animals.

The orca that killed his trainer in a public spectacle at Sea World a year ago has just now been put back to task in live performances (despite three human deaths to his record). These aren't isolated incidents. Animals inflicting injuries upon themselves or others due to inadequate treatment facilities is quite common, although often ignored by the media. We just buy more popcorn and cheer it all on, right?

Is the idea of the public zoo, circuses and marine parks an outdated concept? Or does the educational component of seeing 'wild animals up close' and the general entertainment value outweigh the costs?






DUBOIS15801
Posted: Friday, August 05, 2011 6:54:28 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 659
Location: Dubois, United States
I think it helps many people appericate and loose some of their fears regarding wildlife .... which helps deter mankind from exterminating them for no other reason than ... lets just say .... being different . SAD TO SAY BUT I BELIEVE THAT VERY WELL MIGHT HAVE/WOULD HAPPEN.
Rembacher
Posted: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:28:41 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
I'm far more ok with the idea of a properly run zoo, than a circus or marine park. Animals shouldn't be captured and kept in small cages for our entertainment. But I do believe that a zoo has a greater educational component to it, and if it is properly run, and takes appropriate measures to mimic the animal's natural habitats, does not bring harm to animals. I know the Toronto Zoo takes great pains to ensure its animals have appropriate housings, with room to move and be happy and healthy. And sometimes these zoos are an animals' last hope. Zoos breading programs have been used to try and rebuild the population of a particular species when numbers dwindle to the point where extinction is a very real threat. Animals born in a zoo face far less dangers than ones born in the wild, which means that offspring that are the hope of the species are not lost prematurely, and have the chance to grow, and reproduce themselves.
rudyP34
Posted: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:33:45 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/27/2010
Posts: 127
Location: Canada
I think that, if we want to observe animals, we're much better served watching an HD documentary on TV than watching depressed animals in a cage, in 2011.
Jingle
Posted: Friday, August 05, 2011 8:38:41 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2011
Posts: 164
Location: In my favourite blankey.
If there is a good, healthy way of having a zoo where animals are content, then by all means yes let's do it. It's such a thrill to see something that you would have to travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars on otherwise.

The old methods - cages and inflicting pain to train animals - are most definitely outdated. I will never, ever forget when I stood in front of a chained circus elephant and it did nothing but use it's trunk to run a stone over it's chains for hours on end. It didn't have the freedom to do anything else. Any time I walked by it's pen, it was doing the same thing. That sight has kept me away from shows like that ever since.

Buz
Posted: Friday, August 05, 2011 9:22:23 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,769
Location: Atlanta, United States
I have to admit I have gone to the circus and had a good time. I do wonder about the treatment of those animals. And the rodeo? I have really had a great time at the rodeo. But who knows maybe that bull tossing the human thinks he is the one having all the fun. Just kidding!

I think most modern zoos take great care of their animals and give them great naturalistic environments to live. Usually they have several of their own to live with.

I am okay with most zoos, at least the ones I have seen. I really liked the San Diego Zoo.

lafayettemister
Posted: Saturday, August 06, 2011 7:10:24 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,372
Location: Alabama, United States
Like some of the others have said, a well run zoo that tries very hard to offer their animals as good as possible living/habitat I'm ok with. I've been to some zoos that were super nice and the animals have huge enclosures and had room to run or do things that were natural. I've been to other zoos that left a lot to be desired.

Circuses and marine shows, shut 'em down. Not a fan. Don't like seeing an elephant dancing in a tutu just to make people laugh. And this Killer Whale is going to strike again. Yet I don't blame the whale at all.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
MissyLuvsYa
Posted: Saturday, August 06, 2011 9:54:16 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 543
Location: somewhere on the coast, United States
I am okay with a well done zoo that has large natural enclosures and the animals are well cared for. Not a fan of circuses or marine shows. I don't like dogs kept on chains and left for hours at a time.
sprite
Posted: Saturday, August 06, 2011 10:35:24 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 14,514
Location: My Tower, United States
Sadly, there are species of animals that will most likely soon cease to exist outside of Zoos and refuges. This is not a result of them being captured, but their being hunted to extinction or their natural habitat destroyed. The Northern White Rhino, an animal that once roamed Savanahs and woodlands entire population is set at seven, all of which exist in zoos. Had it not been for zoos, they would be extinct. This is, sadly, true of many species. A great many of the tiger species are facing dwindling numbers, as well as Mountain gorillas.. in fact, here is a very small sampling of animals that, without a miracle, will cease to exist in our lifetime:

Critically endangered: faces an extremely high risk of extinction in the immediate future. Examples: Mountain Gorilla, Bactrian Camel, Ethiopian Wolf, Saiga, Takhi, Iberian Lynx, Kakapo, Arakan Forest Turtle, Sumatran Rhinoceros, Javan Rhino, Brazilian Merganser, Axolotl, Leatherback Sea Turtle, Northern White Rhinoceros, Gharial, Vaquita, Philippine Eagle, Brown Spider Monkey, California Condor, Island Fox, Black Rhinoceros, Chinese Alligator, Sumatran Orangutan, Asiatic Cheetah, African Wild Ass, Hawaiian Monk Seal, Red Wolf

Endangered: faces a very high risk of extinction in the near future. Examples: Dhole, Blue Whale, Asian Elephant, Giant Panda, Snow Leopard, African Wild Dog, Green Sea Turtle, Malayan Tapir, Tiger, Steller's Sea Lion, Philippine Eagle, Asiatic Lion, Markhor, Bornean Orangutan, Grevy's Zebra, Tasmanian Devil, Japanese Crane, Gorillas, Bonobo, Wild Water Buffalo, African Penguin, Goliath Frog, Lear's Macaw, Rothschild Giraffe, Giant Otter, Pygmy Hippoptamus

Now, as far as animals who, in captivity, are a danger to humans? they are animals, and they are true to their nature. Yes, they are cute when they are babies and sure, you want to take them home and dress them in kids clothes or play with them, but they are never going to assimilate. As they grow older, their instincts take over and they will exhibit their true nature - destroying belongings, trying to escape, becoming dangerous. sure, some wild animals adapt better then others because of their nature - keep feeding your boa, and he's probably going to be content to sleep for days at a time in his aquarium, but you'd better keep an eye on that raccoon cause he's just one second away from tearing your face off.

as a plug, my one of my favorite charitable organizations (we have "adpoted" several of the girls here) is the Norhwest Chimp Sanctuary: http://www.chimpsanctuarynw.org/?gclid=CPPRo5yLu6oCFQ6AgwodUyjjLw

this is where those animals end up that were forcefully taken out of the wild and abused and exploited. Some of them have issues that would make ours seem trivial from the treatment they've received at the hands of humans. Some of them spend decades in a small cage so they could be used for animal testing. Imagine if you will, what it would be like to spend the first 20 years of your life locked in a 4 x 4 room, your only contact with the outside world the once a day visit when someone gave you a shot of something that usually made you sick. We treat the prisoners on death row better than that. Something to think about.





http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Saturday, August 06, 2011 11:17:21 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,268
Location: West Coast
I agree with many of the posters above... I am ok with modern, humane zoos near major cities (I would do away with the sketchy ones in small, hick towns that don't have the proper facilities and professional handlers). This is mainly because there are many wild animals that end up injured or lose their mothers at a young age to hunting/poaching and would die if left alone in the wild. I do prefer a more 'sanctuary' style layout. Obviously these kinds of zoos are more expensive, but I would rather see fewer "quality" zoos and sanctuaries. Otherwise, yes, HDTV is like your own personal zoo. There is an incredible array of nature shows available now that are far more awe-inspiring than anything you'll likely see in person.

I am against circuses that use live animals. Human circuses (like Cirque de Soleil) are far more entertaining anyway. I really don't like the concept of performing wild animals. That also includes marine parks. I remember loving these as a kid when I didn't know any better. Unfortunately they have created a trainwreck situation where there is nowhere for these large marine animals to go to once they've had they've been kept in captivity for long periods of time. That's to say nothing of the breeding programs of creating more babies destined for a life of performing and then otherwise being corralled in a small watery cage at night. These animals are not going to find any life contentment living in a pool and having to perform tricks in order to get fed.

I have read so many horror stories of marine-park disasters where trainers get killed or the animals end up killing themselves accidentally due to miscalculations of pool walls when performing or swimming, often right in front of a shocked crowd. I certainly don't blame the animals for handler deaths, but I do blame the idiocy of believing that by humanizing them (with cute names and crowd-pleasing antics) that we can delude ourselves into thinking that they are not ticking time-bombs and in constant anxiety/depression due to the day-to-day stressors of that environment.

I saw the video of the whale-trainer (pictured above) in her last moments.
It's a sobering reminder that the concept of "performing wild animals" is what needs to go extinct.


ArtMan
Posted: Saturday, August 06, 2011 3:37:49 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/29/2011
Posts: 640
Location: South Florida, United States
I hate to see animals chained up. Most zoos are OK. Not at all keen on circuses and marine shows either. Despise bullfights where they torment, stab and kill the bull!!! Medical research on animals? Now that question is really difficult. Several very important medical breakthroughs that save human lives come from that. But testing on animals by cosmetic companies definitely pushes it too far!



You are invited to read Passionate Danger, Part II, a story collaboration by Kim and ArtMan.
http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/passionate-danger-part-ii.aspx

Jingle
Posted: Saturday, August 06, 2011 8:19:42 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2011
Posts: 164
Location: In my favourite blankey.
ArtMan wrote:
Medical research on animals? Now that question is really difficult. Several very important medical breakthroughs that save human lives come from that. But testing on animals by cosmetic companies definitely pushes it too far!




I say use prisoners on death row for that testing! ;D The sobering idea that they would be test subjects for horrible, horrible tests might actually help people think twice before committing crimes. *maniacal laughter followed by evil hand rubbing* Yes, when I rule the world, things will be different! evil5

Guest
Posted: Sunday, August 07, 2011 3:21:42 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
We love our pets, and yes, my kid thinks dogs are very cute and will jump on one when given the opportunity.

However, animals, no matter how dumb or cute we assume them to be are living creatures. It is sad to me, and I only pontificate to my child that animals deserve to be free. A bird unable to fly, a fish in a bowl, a horse never seeing a mountain range, a predator never indulging in the hunt.

How would you like it if you were kept from writing, kept from listening to your favorite song, kept?

No human being wants it. Why do we assume that they do?

Guest
Posted: Sunday, August 07, 2011 3:49:16 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
eviotis wrote:
We love our pets, and yes, my kid thinks dogs are very cute and will jump on one when given the opportunity.

However, animals, no matter how dumb or cute we assume them to be are living creatures. It is sad to me, and I only pontificate to my child that animals deserve to be free. A bird unable to fly, a fish in a bowl, a horse never seeing a mountain range, a predator never indulging in the hunt.

How would you like it if you were kept from writing, kept from listening to your favorite song, kept.

No human being wants it. Why do we assume that they do.



Very poetic. Good job.
rxtales
Posted: Monday, August 08, 2011 7:37:18 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/28/2008
Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
My views of zoos are similar to many of the above. One of my favourite zoos is just outside of Belize City. All of the animals are in their natural habitat, basically some fences were built around sections of the rainforest. The enclosures are so large that sometimes when you go, you don´t see much, because the animals usually aren´t right up against the cage. There are some marine parks that I know of that do a lot of research and are humane. They don´t really do any animal shows though.

I used to live in Cabo, and there was a company in town that would let tourists swim with dolphins that were in cages. None of the trainers had any sort of background in marine conservation or anything like that. They were just there purely to entertain people. I thought it was absolutely horrible.
Dirty_D
Posted: Monday, August 08, 2011 2:19:02 PM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,178
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
eviotis wrote:
We love our pets, and yes, my kid thinks dogs are very cute and will jump on one when given the opportunity.

However, animals, no matter how dumb or cute we assume them to be are living creatures. It is sad to me, and I only pontificate to my child that animals deserve to be free. A bird unable to fly, a fish in a bowl, a horse never seeing a mountain range, a predator never indulging in the hunt.

How would you like it if you were kept from writing, kept from listening to your favorite song, kept?

No human being wants it. Why do we assume that they do?



Im sorry this might sound cutese and quint, poetic if you will, but the reality is this: fish in bowls frequently have cleaner better living, horses only roam in mountain ranges because they are pushed from the places where it natural for them to live, and the predators, well yes, they should indulge in a hunt, of some ahhh cute little animal too. (like that horse, fish, or bird).

I have been fortunate to have lived and worked around animals my whole life in one capacity r another. It is true that they have supported me, just as I support them. I have beggared myself, gone without to ensure they are properly taken care of.

everyone here is awfully quick to jump on the lets ban the circus bandwagin. Here is the reality. those animals the acts actually do things that they do naturally,admittedly minus the tutu, they eat very well, are taken care of well, have pension plans, and health insurance. believe it or not a lot of the Vetrinary knowledge that we have of animals such elephants is available because of circus trainers working with and sharing their knowledge. There is a saying among those who work in circus(where long hard hours are expected of all the people employed there) that a zoo keeper is someone who has never seen their animal after 6. Its true many dont have a piece of paper that says they learned from a book. rather many learned from people who lived & breathed care for that animal. Most animal people care for the animals in their possesion a LOT better then they treat themselves.

its like saying "well, joe blow cant handle his children properly, they go naked, without feed, no disciple. therefore lets make it illegal for EVERYBODY to have kids"




the boys. as you can see they are horribly abused.

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:45:01 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
Most of us eat animals that are born, raised and killed in factories solely so that we can eat them. So, everything is relative, right? I think this is one of those issues that requires a bit of nuanced thinking. Not all animals are the same -- maybe dolphins deserve better treatment than chickens? Not all circuses are the same -- maybe some are cruel to the animals, while others treat them well?
Guest
Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2011 1:54:30 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
not_yet_famous wrote:
Most of us eat animals that are born, raised and killed in factories solely so that we can eat them. So, everything is relative, right? I think this is one of those issues that requires a bit of nuanced thinking. Not all animals are the same -- maybe dolphins deserve better treatment than chickens? Not all circuses are the same -- maybe some are cruel to the animals, while others treat them well?


Could be. Ever seen a PETA undercover video of circus life for animals?
Guest
Posted: Friday, August 26, 2011 2:37:49 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
No. But I'm sure there are circuses that treat their animals terribly.
Guest
Posted: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:22:48 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
I think I am in favor of any well ran zoo, circus, etc. In the well ran ones the animals are often animals that are saved from far worse living condition. I do think they should be regulated and their numbers reduced but I don't think the flat out banning of these would be a great solution. I think it would only lead to humanity becoming even less in touch with wildlife and allow greater cruelties to be committed from lack of caring.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:44:06 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,268
Location: West Coast
I just watched Blackfish. For those that haven't had the chance to see this award-winning documentary yet, I've listed the dates of the rebroadcast this weekend below, on CNN. It's always with a heavy heart that I watch films like this because I get very emotional about these issues, but it's such an important film to see.

For those that don't already take issue with keeping large marine mammals in captivity, this film sheds a lot of light on the propaganda machine of Sea World, the 'feel good' narrative they've been spinning since the inception of this program and the real dangers for both the trainers and orcas today, as upper management counts their blood money.

Please consider watching this film (for free on TV this weekend, or DVR it for a later date). It will either change your thinking or provoke more thought on the archaic human tradition of making wild animals perform tricks for our amusement under the pressures of poor quality of life and unfair living conditions. It will also highlight the idiocy of thinking that tragedies like Keltie Byrne, Dawn Brancheau and a host of other trainers who have lost their lives or been injured won't happen again.

Given that most of these mammals now can't be returned to the wild, I am strongly in favour of making these circus-hoop type performances a thing of the past, and letting them live out their lives in large open-water ocean sanctuaries where they can at least feel the currents of the sea and enjoy a little more freedom and not be contained in a dark, isolated tank for 23 hrs of the day when they are not performing. SeaWorld needs to foot the bill for their mistakes.

I also don't see any point in these programs. If a kid wants to see whales, they should watch some National Geographic or go see them in nature on whale watching tours etc. Seeing Humpbacks while snorkelling was a far more incredible experience for me than those artificial SeaWorld performances I remember as a child. We really do need to reevaluate our outlook on these programs. Orcas, in particular, are simply too large and too intelligent to be maintained in a pool 'n performance type set-up - social isolation, collapsed dorsal fins due to inactivity, injuries from other whales, punishment training methods - the list goes on an on. This just isn't a mammal designed for this kind of arena.



BLACKFISH

After debuting at the Sundance Film Festival earlier this year, this critically acclaimed film has gone on to receive praise at numerous film festivals around the globe and has seen a successful run amid sold-out crowds in movie theaters worldwide.

Brought to us in conjunction with Magnolia Pictures, CNN Films and distributed by Dogwoof, this outstanding documentary film has received rave reviews from movie critics for its exceptional work bringing the controversial yet important realities of keeping orcas in captivity to the attention of millions of viewers.





Blackfish tells the story of Tilikum, a performing killer whale that killed several people while in captivity. Along the way, director-producer Gabriela Cowperthwaite compiles shocking footage and emotional interviews to explore the creature’s extraordinary nature, the species’ cruel treatment in captivity, the lives and losses of the trainers and the pressures brought to bear by the multi-billion dollar sea-park industry.

This emotionally wrenching, tautly structured story challenges us to consider our relationship to nature and reveals how little we humans have learned from these highly intelligent and enormously sentient fellow mammals.



Saturday, October 26, 2013 @ 7:00pm ET on CNN
Sunday, October 27, 2013 @ 9:00pm ET on CNN
Monday, October 28, 2013 @ 12:00am ET on CNN
Monday, October 28, 2013 @ 3:00am ET on CNN

Be sure to tune-in or set your DVRs to record!





Dirty_D
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 10:41:22 AM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,178
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
Guest wrote:
I think I am in favor of any well ran zoo, circus, etc. In the well ran ones the animals are often animals that are saved from far worse living condition. I do think they should be regulated and their numbers reduced but I don't think the flat out banning of these would be a great solution. I think it would only lead to humanity becoming even less in touch with wildlife and allow greater cruelties to be committed from lack of caring.


A less well researched post I have yet to see.

Circus's, Zoo's, even private individuals with exotic animals are subject to USDA inspection, at any time. They have tons of regulations, from living conditions, to feed, to care, to who must be available on the property (at all times), to the tools used to trim toe nails, to the sort of guns and ammunition that must be present. Any breach in any of these laws will set up a chain reaction that results in PETA (or its worse cousin, the Humane Society of the United States) crying out about the citations against the handler.

As for reducing the numbers, there are currently less then 10 independent elephant handlers in the United States. The current regulations have pushed to the point that we no longer are able to see the large multi animal acts that were once impressive to see. No one works with animals with a lack of caring. The hours and the commitment that must be devoted are such that they take over your entire life. There is no 'going on vacation', there is no 'going out for the weekend'. The animals come first, second, and third. The human's lives are always last on the list.

Guest
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:36:42 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,624
"We really do need to reevaluate our outlook on these programs. Orcas, in particular, are simply too large and too intelligent to be maintained in a pool 'n performance type set-up - social isolation, collapsed dorsal fins due to inactivity, injuries from other whales, punishment training methods - the list goes on an on. This just isn't a mammal designed for this kind of arena."

Any animal is not designed to our arena. But, we design them to our arenas. Dogs and cats are easy, once we get into the larger animals we seek to justify the arenas existence. Leave animals and the environment alone. How's about we figure out how to live in that arena? It's called an ecosystem. We don't even know how to live with each other in some cases, but we are always quick to try and control other systems. We are selfish. Not shellfish, just selfish.
keoloke
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 12:52:21 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 599
Location: United States
It’s a fact.. we use what we can, how we want it and when we want it, nothing and no one excluded. Lawfully and unlawfully without any regards for our future generations and balance.

As an example consider this statement: Global warming it’s not man made.

Many companies and organizations with the available resources fight this continuously, but are not the ones that can make and enforce the law, and it’s arduous to say the least to go against “lawful” corruption.


sprite wrote:
Sadly, there are species of animals that will most likely soon cease to exist outside of Zoos and refuges.

Critically endangered: faces an extremely high risk of extinction in the immediate future. Examples: Black Rhinoceros




Sprite if you were referring to: West African Black Rhinoceros, It is now EXTINCT. Yup, what you see in the pic.. it does not exist any longer and so does the Ibex (a mountain goat) that used to roam the Pyrenees mountains... It's also been reported that it was the first extinct animal (a female) to be cloned. How are they going to get her inseminated? Making another one? Playing God as usual.

Anyway, good info Sprite.. Thanks!



Choose n Practice Happiness

Life is simple; we are what we eat and what we read. Talk is superfluous.
Ruthie
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:31:57 PM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,348
Location: United States
I think animal reserves are a good idea, to protect animals in their natural habitat. Zoos might be helpful in breeding animals that are near extinction.
The manatee is near extinction, and there is really no hope that it won't go extinct, because it breeds too slowly. Circuses are just for entertainment. They really don't need animals, or they should stick to animals that are already domesticated like dogs and leave the wild animals in the wild. Tigers and Lions don't belong in cages, and neither do elephants.
keoloke
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:47:56 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 599
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:


None of this happens smoothly, of course.



No, not smoothly and at "best" (without bloodshed) of the situation.... In an interview one of the experienced fisherman responsible to capture young Orcas said "it felt like kidnapping a young baby from a crib" as the whole families of Orcas stayed nearby (they never left during the capture) and bobbing their head outside of the water the whole time emitting distressing sounds.

Thanks for the info on Blackfish.

Choose n Practice Happiness

Life is simple; we are what we eat and what we read. Talk is superfluous.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:10:12 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,268
Location: West Coast
keoloke wrote:


No, not smoothly and at "best" (without bloodshed) of the situation.... In an interview one of the experienced fisherman responsible to capture young Orcas said "it felt like kidnapping a young baby from a crib" as the whole families of Orcas stayed nearby (they never left during the capture) and bobbing their head outside of the water the whole time emitting distressing sounds.

Thanks for the info on Blackfish.


Yeah, this part had me sobbing as well. Even more so learning that after experiencing these kinds of targeted attacks, the orca pod tried to evade capture of their young by having the adult males go in one direction, surface breaching to keep the fishing boats on their tail, while the mothers tried to sneak the babies in a different direction, deeper underwater, to avoid detection. It worked until they eventually had to surface and the spotter plane saw them and alerted the fisherman to change course. It was probably one of the most heartbreaking stories I've ever heard.

The research showing that the emotional center of the orca's brain is actually larger than that of humans (relative to overall size) is just further evidence of the backward approach and ethical and moral implications involved in keeping such large and intelligent mammals imprisoned and socially isolated.

I was also shocked to hear that the black rhinos are now finally extinct. All because of the idiotic magical-medicine claims that rhino horns prevent or cure cancer. With poaching laws lax and the money making opportunities on the black market as high as they are for 'body parts, organs and horns', it was just a matter of time. I have no doubt more species will follow. Community level thinking needs to change as well in cases like this - magical medicine has such a strong-hold in certain cultures - whether it's harvesting body parts from human albino children in a bid to cure AIDS or going after horns, fins and animal organs - the black market is rife with unimaginable cruelty.


Dirty_D
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 8:43:01 PM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,178
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
Ruthie wrote:
I think animal reserves are a good idea, to protect animals in their natural habitat. Zoos might be helpful in breeding animals that are near extinction.
The manatee is near extinction, and there is really no hope that it won't go extinct, because it breeds too slowly. Circuses are just for entertainment. They really don't need animals, or they should stick to animals that are already domesticated like dogs and leave the wild animals in the wild. Tigers and Lions don't belong in cages, and neither do elephants.


You realize elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years. Longer then horses even. The one I've been privileged enough to be around is so attached to her owner/handler that she knows when he is sick, she knows when its someone else driving her truck(built for her comfort). She works off of voice commands better then any dog I know. Better then most children. Ive worked around long enough to have seen the to of them in stressful situations, in bad weather, back stage and front. I can tell you that there is nothing but mutul love and respect between her handler and her

She is never caged, she does have a barn that was built just for her comfort. the rest of the time she spends outside, in one of to fields, where she has trees, toys and sand pits. She gets bathed daily. About 7 days a year she works(she's in semi retirement) doing either circus's, weddings, or assorted other work. on those dates, she is chained only as much as required by the law.

Ruthie
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:14:30 PM

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Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,348
Location: United States
naughtynurse wrote:


You realize elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years. Longer then horses even. The one I've been privileged enough to be around is so attached to her owner/handler that she knows when he is sick, she knows when its someone else driving her truck(built for her comfort). She works off of voice commands better then any dog I know. Better then most children. Ive worked around long enough to have seen the to of them in stressful situations, in bad weather, back stage and front. I can tell you that there is nothing but mutul love and respect between her handler and her

She is never caged, she does have a barn that was built just for her comfort. the rest of the time she spends outside, in one of to fields, where she has trees, toys and sand pits. She gets bathed daily. About 7 days a year she works(she's in semi retirement) doing either circus's, weddings, or assorted other work. on those dates, she is chained only as much as required by the law.


There are also many examples of elephants being abused in circuses. All the tricks that an elephant does are things that they are forced to learn. Elephants belong in the wild. Circus elephants are trained using techniques of deprivation and punishment, beginning when they're babies. Their lives aren't happy go lucky, they are left in chains for hours doing nothing, trucked around the country in confined conditions, and left to the mercy of whoever the circus hires to work with them. The example of one happy elephant doesn't change those facts.
Dirty_D
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:51:37 PM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 7,178
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
Ruthie wrote:


There are also many examples of elephants being abused in circuses. All the tricks that an elephant does are things that they are forced to learn. Elephants belong in the wild. Circus elephants are trained using techniques of deprivation and punishment, beginning when they're babies. Their lives aren't happy go lucky, they are left in chains for hours doing nothing, trucked around the country in confined conditions, and left to the mercy of whoever the circus hires to work with them. The example of one happy elephant doesn't change those facts.


^^propaganda from Peta and HSUS

I'm aware of how more then one elephant lives. There are very very few independent elephants on the road today, less then 10 as a matter of fact. they are a small group who keep tabs on what is happening, both to the animals and to the handlers themselves.

Of the two large circuses on the road (Carson Bros, and Ringling) both have successful breeding programs that are hugely responsible for working to create sustainable population the Indian elephant(one of the first animals placed on the endangered species list). Many of the techniques used in veterinary practice today are founded from use in the circus where handlers are with their charges not just a few hours a week, but live and coexist together. You are right, they start working with them young. Of course, Horses start training on their first day, as do children. We start to teach babies to associate words with various things immediately, and send them to school while still young so that they can earn a living. What is wrong with that? I've seen the training you are complaining about. learning cues, through the use of ropes and repetition. The moves they do are indeed things elephants will do in the wild, maybe not set to music, maybe a bit different then you see them, but they are basic moves.


Those who work and make a living with animals do so because they love the animals. when your animal is the one helping you earn you living, you make absolutely certain that animal gets the best of care. You don't abuse your boss.

As for the so called "true videos" that HSUS/PETA produces, they have been proven to have been staged by PETA/HSUS to create this type of propaganda so that people like you who have never seen what actual happens will believe.




As for Doll's post about the Orcas, I don't know anything about marine animals. I don't pretend to know. I watched part of the cnn presentation(I was working and couldnt see the whole thing) I feel that I need to know more about the industry before I could comment, particularly since I have seen how easily it is to portray things in a negative light. That said, I am more empathetic of animals then humans. I have spent my life caring for them, living with them, and observing them. I absolutely believe that the conditions for the whales should be as as comfortable and natural as possible. I dislike seeing show horses with out turn out time and I dont think marine animals should suffer either.

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