I watched it on CNN today Bat. They're still thinking about giving it to them. They want a plan of action from them first.
Also heard if they fail or go under we go into a depression. We'll see.

I work with mostly fiscally-conservative Republicans who get nauseous at the thought of throwing more money into the fire that is our car industry.
Even so, the consensus around here is that they better give them the money with some radical stipulations, because they are unlikely to make it into Chapter 11, which allows them to keep operating, and there are so many dominoes to fall in their wake that it's truly scary.

Catch-22 is the term, I think.

The biggest concern to the execs, is who is going to finance their golden parachutes and pension plans. I'll bet they dumped the company stock option plans long ago
Their arrogance is appalling. Why not fly in South West for a couple hundred bucks?
Back in the 70 the technology was there and a plan to make more efficient cars So they found a loop hole skirting the epa fuel requirements by building SUV's on truck chassis

The oil crisis came about when we finally hit peak oil Meaning we no longer were able to produce enough oil to match our demand. We had to purchase on the world market to make up the difference. There is no reason the fleet MPG average could not have approached 40 mpgs in 1985. Lets not discuss quality is Job one? They lost that one long ago
So now hold out you hand and ask for money for a broken model? We bailed out Chrysler already 2 times before and now a third time?


This point has not been brought up, the workers who pension plans were tied into the stock options. 35 years you retire to a stock worth $2 If lucky they might be worth $1,500

Is the money going into manufacturing? pension plans into operating cost ?

Read where the Bank bail out money is not going to the beleaguered home owners, but to purchasing other banks? Finance retreats pension plan for execs Incredible christmas bonuses golden parachutes
I say I don't trust our politicians to make wise choices with my money. Need I mention health care

The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.


Next myth we all can play games of selectivity when presenting facts. Note above Toyota was not included in the final statement

Again note no mention of Honda's advanced research in Hydrogen fuel cell fuel vehicles, Already released in a limited vollume in USA

Nor did he include the personal equipment? People could plug in their garages and replenish the hydrogen fuel cells.

What about Propane fueled vehicles?

I own a Chevy Colorado 4x/4x it haS THE BEST EPA MPGS FOR A 4X/4X TRUCK. But better is not good enough, It could and should be 35 mpgs

My two wood stoves are the only ones casted and manufactured in North America Vermont Castings. I have American pride
and alliances to American factory workers.


The only thing missing from the meeting with Congress, was the big three Did not wear a mask and carry a gun.

Honestly I'm on the fence here. I don't want to see the millions of workers and families unemployed. On the other hand , Chrysler has failed 2 times earlier.

Throwing money at a bad model does not fix it, Ie Health Care mess. Want to argue then present facts where the money goes and present a plan of moving forward, that can convince me my money is being well spent.

Doesn't matter if you're convinced or not. You don't have a say in where it's going to go at this point.
I think if you had listened to Nancy Pelosi and the others yesterday you would have heard them mention that they aren't giving out the money until they see a plan of action on their behalf.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/20/campbell.big.three.plan/index.html

I live in the most liberal state of MA. Kennedy Kerry Frank and a governor to match

all promote efforts towards fuel efficient alternative energy

but when the pedal meets the road their tune changes

We have had a plan for an offshore wind farm in the works for year

Cape Cod coastline is about the best location wind wise This would be the largest such wind farm in the world

Guess who opposes it Kennedy Kerry Frank and our governor

It seems Kennedy might be able to see it from his estate in Hyanias port and ruin his view

Some how I have a hard time believing Barney Frank making my choice in aloting money

It was his proposal that got pushed threw congress that lowered the mortgage requirements that put us in this situation During the Clinton era

It was warned it could effect Freddie mac and others exactly as predicted, Yet nobody heeded the warnings. Barney Frank made bold speeches about making

Those involved accountable for the demise. I got news for You Barney You saw him this morning in the mirror.

Nancy Pelosi energy bill is an absolute joke. In year 2050 cars may have to be 40 mpgs We will all be dead before it helps us. Ps I exaggerated a bit here but it is ridiculous

And you want Us to put our trust in her wisdom?

Just like I said, if they go bankrupt there goes all those golden parachutes

We already have wind farms in Texas. And by 2014 the largest one in the world will be finished here.

I've actually met my congressman and senators several times. The last time was in July of this year in his office in D.C. I think most people know how to talk to their reps in washington, don't they?

How is that leadership by example? I'm a private citizen that exercises her privilege to know the people that speak for me.

I just read Exxon has $37 billion in cah. Maybe they should loan it to the big 3.

Bat

The same company that built yours, is the one trying to build here. Its a classic example, we are green, till it is in my back yard.
Then all of a sudden, they get concerned about the fish and birds. Most of these very well to do people could give a ----- about the fish or fishermen. Up till now,

the only fishing pole they see, is in Bass Pro shop they pass, buying designer clothes. They have not responded to the argument ,it is possible the wind mill farms may act as a base and create new spawning grounds.

For years, the big three has fought to avoid producing fuel efficient cars. The example is, their lobbing efforts influenced the latest energy bill

They fought to keep the EPA MPG's requirements where thy are.


Here a scary bit of info: Since the down turn in fuel pump cost, there is a renewed interest in purchasing larger SUVs
I can't help but think our society is like the lennons march to the sea. It reminds me of an old Petter Paul and Mary song

"Where have all the flowers gone
long time passing
When will we ever learn
Wheeen will we ever learn"

Wow....I get busy for a few days and look at all the discussion I miss! I know you're all just dying to know what the Motown girl thinks (LOL). So here it goes:

I think it's audacious that big 3 corporate executives continue to make extraordinary salaries despite the financial state of their corporations. I think it's insane that the UAW doesn't understand that people who are laid off should not collect 90% of their salary. I belong to a union as a teacher and if I get laid off, I get the chance to buy my own insurance for awhile....and a spot on a waiting list to get the next available job I am qualified for if it every becomes available again. At 90% salaray, an automaker needs to lay off 10 people to net one person's salary (roughly). I can see not wanting to let go of that. But it has little value if the bottom line is the company will go under and the end result is 0%. I have watched neighbors who work for one of the big 3 get all kinds of stuff done around the house and go on vacation while laid off. While my other friends who get laid off from other jobs are often unable to keep their homes and find themselves at a loss for how they will keep going after the unemployment runs out. One of my old college buddies is waiting tables so he doesn't lose his house. One of my sisters has been unemployed for over a year. She is over 50 and has lots of experience and skill, but potential employers won't hire her because she is either over qualified or they think she would require too high a salary for her level of experience. Even when she gets an interview, she rarely gets a call back because companies are looking to hire younger people who they feel they can pay less. Another sister was recently laid off. She was days away from being promoted. She has been with the company for all of her adult life. She is also over 50 and the pickings are slim. But I digress...

As a Michigan resident, I really do worry about how much more punishment our economy can handle. There is a HUGE trickle-down effect that will bury many people in my state if the big 3 go under. I applaud the powers that be for recognizing that allowing bankruptcy would be devastating, but that bailout without specific restrictions and guidelines would be inappropriate.

This morning's headlines in the Detroit Free Press:

Democrats: Prove you can repay $25 billion
Democratic leaders in Congress called on Detroit's automakers Friday to submit "credible" financial plans to lawmakers by Dec. 2 for spending up to $25 billion in government money, including vows for "significant sacrifices" by top executives.

UAW may give up jobs bank to revive auto loans
During this week's hearings, members of Congress said they would want to see shared sacrifice at all levels, from hourly workers to executives. The jobs bank, derided as paying people not to work, is oft-criticized as an example of what's wrong with the U.S. auto industry.

At a news conference at the UAW's headquarters in Detroit on Thursday, Gettelfinger would not say whether the union would be willing to give up the jobs bank if required by Congress as a condition of a loan bailout.

When UAW autoworkers are laid off, they receive a combination of unemployment benefits and supplemental pay from their employer for 48 weeks. If they remain laid off beyond that, they move to the jobs bank, where the company provides about 95% of their pay and benefits. Until the most recent contract, people could remain in the jobs bank for years.

Wow...guess I had more to say than I thought. I hope and pray that all parties involved in the decision making process make wise choices and that people realize that things need to be done differently if our state is every going to see a recovery.

~~Tech

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~~Tech

Missing here is we all have to examine ourselves. Detroit manufactured what our buying public wanted . Unfortunately the fuel guzzling SUV’s did not look too good when fuel was $4.20 a gallon. Even gas stations implemented $75 dollar credit card purchases, that only half fill them up. Now the public wants fuel efficient cars and trucks. You are a Ford dealer and have taken trade of 10 decent F150 sitting on you lot. Nobody is buying them Not at 12 mpgs You cant take another one in trade.

The trouble began with the sub prime mortgages during the Clinton Administration.
The initial premise was a good one, aimed to help first time buyers purchasing a home. Some where in-between Pandora’s box got opened and Mortgages were being given to people that had decent homes but wanted to have a mac mansions. Again at first it looked good. They paid interest only the first 3 or 5 years. It qualified them to purchase a home beyond their means. Again the premise was in 5 years the principle moneymaker would be making more money and the home equity would put them in a position to refinance. But like a lot of things too much of a good thing, too many purchasers living on the edge. The monthl;y payment of $1500 was not to bad to deal with. When the principal kicked in, that new payment was $4500 or more. It was then they realized they could not make payments they default and more and more homes enter the market so much so there is lesser demand to build. Every day these trick sub prime motrtages came due Meanwhile many owners had it so well in their mac mansions, naturally they had to have a 72’ Plasma a BWM in the driveway all purchased on credit or the huge ass suburan

As long as builder built and sold everything was going great. Then ia slowed down Truck sales are a major part of Detroit. Ususlly what happens each year in Washington’s day car sales Contractors purchase new F 150s No work and struggling nobody bought them. It was so bad Ford re badge the 2008’s to sell them as 2009’s. They stopped all production of F150’s

Who is to blame and there is plenty to go around, We all are, The average house hold is 15k in credit card debt. Eventually it has to be paid off. We took out equity loans used up our equity. The real problem is the homes got so devalued that their value is less than their original purchase price.
Less than the mortgage the owners hold. Are the banks responsible Yes they wrote the loans did the qualifications sold them to Freddie and Fanny. The purchasers are also to blame for not reading the fine print. Our government for passing legislation to allow these loans And our auto makers for making gas guzzlers. There is plenty of greed to go around

Here is what pisses me off me the most. Say you are intelligent enough to live within your means. Save some towards retirement even have a bank account? Now the government wants to bail out banks and carmakers guess who pays? The responsible ones because they are the only ones left with a few cents. The ones up to their eyeballs in Debt they have no money. I end up paying for those that spent foolishly in irresponsibly And I can tell you I’m not happy with it

So where does the money come from? We borrow on the future again. The same cause of our current situation is going to happen again, when those notes come due. Where does some of the money come from? We borrow on the world market, selling another piece of our country. Folks we are selling our independence. This is not that simple give Detroit the money. And you can bet they will be back looking for more. Just like our banking industry. Anyone care to guess how much of our banking industry is owned by foreign entities?

Has any noticed Beer is $1 a six pack more this year than last? Transportation cost Yes b It runs deeper. Food cost. In order to put ethanol in our gasoline, we grow corn instead of Barely. Our driving habits are interrupting our food chain. Milk cost more bread cost more. We have a shortage of grains due to corn to ethanol production. When the corn falls short of out demand We import it to countries who are cutting down rain forest to grow sugar beets. Cows need grains to survive as does most live stock. That’s why the food price increases It is never a good idea to disrupt the food chain but that’s what is happening. Making it worse, the cost to produce the ethanol is about the same as the energy it releases

There are no easy solution that throwing money at will fix, without major life style changes.

BTW...for years I bought Ford cars thinking I was being a good American. Then I discovered that my "American" car was actually built in Canada. I now drive a "foreign" car and take a lot of heat for my decision. Want to know where my "foreign" car was built? That's right...the good old U.S.A.

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~~Tech

hmm...I wonder where you would put the CD?.....LMAO!!!!

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~z~

"Where words fail, music speaks..."

- 50 points.

It's built into the forum software, which thousands and thousands of other sites use too. Doesn't the army use "Rank"?

I'll ask my coder guy to see if it's an easy change. I think he has more important things to concern himself with.

No idea ..you use YAF.
I only know SMF. and of course that is changeable

Interesting.......

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/homepage/20081121_One_Last_Thing__The_Big_Three_don_t_measure_up_for_a_bailout.html

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~z~

"Where words fail, music speaks..."