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Should creationism be taught in schools? Options · View
Jacknife
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 7:07:46 AM

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Location: United Kingdom
While this question is obviously more applicable to the USA it is likely to become one in the UK, because of private schools and public schools being given more independent control.

Now, I'm an Atheist. and creationism, should not be taught in a science class, because it isn't science. but i have no problem with it being taught as part of other religious teaching.

I know creationism is rubbish, not because I was taught it, but because science has proved it to be inconsitent and impossible within the universe. It is better to teach our children critical thinking and let them make there own discoveries. The truthwill then come out
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:53:06 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 535,088
The Constitution says there shall be no established Church, or discrimination by the gov't against freedom of religion. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison's personal notes aside, they have nothing to do with the Constitution. The Establishment Clause of a century plus later was interpreted by some, and wholly misinterpreted by most to mean a separation of Church and State, but that has been used solely by intolerant liberals to rationalize their standing.

Intelligent design has not been debunked. Let's see any one of your published dissertations that proves it....many, many scientists, some of whom accept some levels of evolutionary theory, subscribe totally to Intelligent Design.

Anyone who says differently is showing their ignorance.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:20:09 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,289
Location: Cakeland, United States
Chuck wrote:
The Constitution says there shall be no established Church, or discrimination by the gov't against freedom of religion. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison's personal notes aside, they have nothing to do with the Constitution. The Establishment Clause of a century plus later was interpreted by some, and wholly misinterpreted by most to mean a separation of Church and State, but that has been used solely by intolerant liberals to rationalize their standing.

Intelligent design has not been debunked. Let's see any one of your published dissertations that proves it....many, many scientists, some of whom accept some levels of evolutionary theory, subscribe totally to Intelligent Design.

Anyone who says differently is showing their ignorance.


Intelligent design is not strict creationism. Both rely on miracles to explain that which a lazier mind chooses not to investigate, but merely requires that same lazy mind to place their beliefs within a faith to explain away everything which cannot be scientifically proven or as yet, barely even investigated.

Evolution is two fold - macro-evolution & micro-evolution. One (macro) cannot prove that another species has ever arisen from a totally different yet partially genetically related species (such as Man from Ape) yet we can see all around us that micro-evolution occurs within multiple species, and quite often.

The emergent and 'evolving' (the irony!) studies of DNA, gene mapping, gene sequencing, genome hybridization are indicating things which are casting new light on the base question - where did this all come from?

Science should be taught in schools. Faith/beliefs/miracles/eternity should be discussed or preached or pushed - in their respective religious shrines.

In our schools we often mix children of many different faiths, should we then teach the 'creation story' of every person's faith to everyone else?

Some argument could be put forth that Darwinism (the theory of macro-evolution) is a faith or 'religion' all to itself, as well. There are several leaps of faith required to believe that all of what we see around us today, simply transmuted and evolved, when we cannot even find in the fossil record any indication that it has ever occurred. Evolution has been spouting for decades about 'the missing link'. There are millions of missing links, in-between genetically 'close' related species.

Follow the genetics if you wish to find god. Follow faith if you wish to know him and have him know you. Both are theories, both are faiths.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:27:07 AM

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America was founded on the Bible. Creation was taught in every school until Darwin came up with his theory. It used to be a REQUIREMENT to be a Christian if you wanted to run for office. Where has America gone? I believe whole-heartedly that Creationism should be taught in schools. In Science. Evolution is! And there is FAR more evidence supporting Creation.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:55:28 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,272
Location: West Coast
Dudeness92 wrote:
America was founded on the Bible. Creation was taught in every school until Darwin came up with his theory. It used to be a REQUIREMENT to be a Christian if you wanted to run for office. Where has America gone? I believe whole-heartedly that Creationism should be taught in schools. In Science. Evolution is! And there is FAR more evidence supporting Creation.


Yes, what was America thinking? Clearly any progress in scientific theory made past 1950 should not be taught in schools! In fact I can't believe that non-Christians are even allowed to maintain their citizenship!

Sarcasm aside, seriously? d'oh!

The fact that as late as in the 1980s, state creationism laws were passed in Louisiana and Arkansas to force the teaching of creationism in place of evolution just shows how slow the progress from myth to concrete science can become. The main incentive to teach evolution in the classroom was only because in the 1950s, the Russian satellite launch caused the US to become concerned that they were falling behind in scientific progress, so at least we know fear works as a mobilizer, even if logic does not.






Rembacher
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:09:34 AM

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Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
For many years the world was flat, until someone came up with an alternative theory, and then that new theory was taught. Also, it was taught that the sun rotated around the earth, until a new theory was taught. There are many other theories like this that have been let go of over the years. So, of course once a new theory like evolution comes along, it will be taught at the expense of older theories.

That being said, I do believe in some form of creationism. It all has to start from somewhere. Even in big bang theory, if two specks of dust collided to create this, where did those specks come from? I have a far easier time believing that a supernatural being always was, than some inanimate object always exhisting. I don't necessarily believe in the christian god, but I definitely believe in some form of supernatural being.
rxtales
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:44:19 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/28/2008
Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
Dudeness92 wrote:
America was founded on the Bible. Creation was taught in every school until Darwin came up with his theory. It used to be a REQUIREMENT to be a Christian if you wanted to run for office. Where has America gone? I believe whole-heartedly that Creationism should be taught in schools. In Science. Evolution is! And there is FAR more evidence supporting Creation.


Doesn't the first amendment say
Quote:
Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
That implies there being freedom of religion. How would a country based on Christianity allow this? Why then should Christian creationism be taught in school? I am assuming you don't intend for it to be taught along side the beliefs of other religions.
Playmale
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:56:01 AM

Rank: Smiley Guru

Joined: 7/16/2008
Posts: 551
Location: United States
Chuck wrote:
The Constitution says there shall be no established Church, or discrimination by the gov't against freedom of religion. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison's personal notes aside, they have nothing to do with the Constitution. The Establishment Clause of a century plus later was interpreted by some, and wholly misinterpreted by most to mean a separation of Church and State, but that has been used solely by intolerant liberals to rationalize their standing.

Intelligent design has not been debunked. Let's see any one of your published dissertations that proves it....many, many scientists, some of whom accept some levels of evolutionary theory, subscribe totally to Intelligent Design.

Anyone who says differently is showing their ignorance.


Intelligent design or whatever you wish to call it now primarily comes from the bible right?

Well that was a collection of books assembled under Constantine in the 4th century A.D. The stories it contains existed in the previous religions, virgin birth, death and resurrection, great flood the list goes on. These were not new concepts, but adaptations of the existing pagan beliefs going back to the Babylonians, centralized to show a hierarchy of power leading to the top, as a model of how a ruler, like an Emperor would like his subjects to see him. It had nothing to do with disciples and miracles. This was about control of populace and power.

So I feel no need to debunk what has no proof or supporting evidence in the first place.



Quote:
"America was founded on the bible? "

You need to reread your history your Dudeness. The Colonists were in the US after fleeing severe religious persecutions. There was no way they wanted to have a state sponsored religion. The US, though it mentions a god, in no way inferred a religion in the documents that create our republic.
rxtales
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:59:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/28/2008
Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
playmale wrote:
Dudeness wrote:
"America was founded on the bible? "

You need to reread your history your Dudeness. The Colonists were in the US after fleeing severe religious persecutions. There was no way they wanted to have a state sponsored religion. The US, though it mentions a god, in no way inferred a religion in the documents that create our republic.


They also wanted to avoid the problems associated with having a monarchy or single party government. This meant not having a state sponsored religion and creating the Government it has now.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:22:22 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Are any 'creationists' or 'intelligent design' theorists also Atheists? Are all of the people wanting to have these things taught in US schools Christians? I have a suspicion that this is a group of religious people that are trying to work backwards from their religious beliefs to try to 'scientifically' explain things according to their faith. They use the whole 'well- most people in this country are Christian' argument, and make it seem as if their beliefs are being persecuted if those beliefs aren't being taught in schools. Anything born out of religion just doesn't seem to me like it belongs anywhere near a science classroom- it has a motive other than objective science, after all: to debunk any explanation of the earth and life that doesn't involve some supernatural being creating it from thin air.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:25:50 AM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Chuck wrote:
.many, many scientists, some of whom accept some levels of evolutionary theory, subscribe totally to Intelligent Design.

Anyone who says differently is showing their ignorance.


but aren't most of them in christian groups, trying to advance their theories according to their faith? And what defines 'scientist'? A lab coat? Test tubes and a bunson burner in their office?

Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:45:46 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 535,088
Dudeness92 wrote:
America was founded on the Bible.


America was founded by the British who sent a group of people over to colonize the land. "Bible" is not in that sentence. After that, the founding fathers "founded" the country because of a century of salutory neglect and misrepresentation by the British.

Dudeness92 wrote:
Creation was taught in every school until Darwin came up with his theory.


Actually, it was quite a while until it was taught because so many people were brainwashed into Christianity. It's a shock how people will turn to the only thing that they've ever been taught when it was the only thing available...

Dudeness92 wrote:
It used to be a REQUIREMENT to be a Christian if you wanted to run for office. Where has America gone?


I wasn't aware it moved anywhere. I didn't think that plate tectonics moved that much. Guess that this means the U.S. is the the country version of "where's waldo?"


Dudeness92 wrote:
And there is FAR more evidence supporting Creation.


No there isn't! The only thing that's there is the bible. And the bible doesn't count as "evidence." If we are, then we should count the Harry Potter books as "evidence" for Hogwarts...clown




Creationism should be taught in schools, side-by-side with Greek Mythology and Indian creation stories of a woman falling on the back of a giant turtle.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 2:55:34 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,141
Location: United States
LadyX wrote:
Are any 'creationists' or 'intelligent design' theorists also Atheists? Are all of the people wanting to have these things taught in US schools Christians? I have a suspicion that this is a group of religious people that are trying to work backwards from their religious beliefs to try to 'scientifically' explain things according to their faith. They use the whole 'well- most people in this country are Christian' argument, and make it seem as if their beliefs are being persecuted if those beliefs aren't being taught in schools. Anything born out of religion just doesn't seem to me like it belongs anywhere near a science classroom- it has a motive other than objective science, after all: to debunk any explanation of the earth and life that doesn't involve some supernatural being creating it from thin air.


Pretty much. Most fundamentalist religionists do insist that their truth is the whole truth and the only truth, and if you ask for any kind of scientific method to prove what they say, there is none. "You have to have faith," they say, smugly assured that they know all there is to know, and because that's all there IS to know, nobody else should want to know anything else. They have no doubts that they might not know all there is to know, and so are among the most self-centered and selfish people I've ever met. Personally, I have faith DESPITE my doubts. I know I don't have all the answers, but I believe that even the most rigorous scientific treatment won't ever discover all the answers either. Until then, we use science as a way to describe those few things we DO understand about the majesty of Creation.


Dudeness92 wrote:

America was founded on the Bible.


Aaannn wrote:

America was founded by the British who sent a group of people over to colonize the land. "Bible" is not in that sentence. After that, the founding fathers "founded" the country because of a century of salutory neglect and misrepresentation by the British.


America was actually settled by as rag-tag a bunch of miscreants as you can imagine. Many of them came from Germanic countries, and many came from Latin countries. A majority came from England when English corporations decided to spend some research money to see what (if anything) they could exploit in the "New World." Regardless of what His Dudeness says, America was NOT founded as a Christian country. A majority of our Founding Fathers were either atheists, deists, or held some religion other than Christianity. They specifically wrote our governmental documents WITHOUT mentioning a specific religion so as to avoid this very conundrum.

Jacknife
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:07:28 PM

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Location: United Kingdom
Dudeness92 wrote:
America was founded on the Bible. Creation was taught in every school until Darwin came up with his theory. It used to be a REQUIREMENT to be a Christian if you wanted to run for office. Where has America gone? I believe whole-heartedly that Creationism should be taught in schools. In Science. Evolution is! And there is FAR more evidence supporting Creation.


Lol I don't think any part of that paragragh is true, apart from your opinion
Southern_Sass
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:29:01 PM

Rank: Miss Sassy Pants

Joined: 3/14/2010
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Location: Ridin the Waves of Lush, United States
I hope this does not offend... I just found it interesting...




Read the whole thing it proves a very good statement


'Let me explain the problem science has with religion...' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?' 'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha, the Bible!' He considers for a moment.

'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't..'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Err...yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil..'

Again, the student has no answer...

'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?'

There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues on to a second student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks.. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to
identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ , or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room
suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.'

'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't
darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.' 'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So are you making a point, young man?'

'Yes, professor! My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you
explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains... 'You
argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'

'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully
understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the
professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lecture, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,'
the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it
everyday It i s in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart.

It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.









Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:01:42 PM

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Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:21:12 PM

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Posts: 535,088
Creationism, I think should not be in the public school system. If a family or individual feels that strong about it or want that sort of education go to a catholic school or attend sunday mass. To have it in public school and making it manditory I think is like forcing religon...dontknow dontknow
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:44:15 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,141
Location: United States
Hollywood3 wrote:
I hope this does not offend... I just found it interesting...


That's a neat parable. I've read it before, but it's always neat to read again.

DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:15:14 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Chuck wrote:
The Constitution says there shall be no established Church, or discrimination by the gov't against freedom of religion. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison's personal notes aside, they have nothing to do with the Constitution. The Establishment Clause of a century plus later was interpreted by some, and wholly misinterpreted by most to mean a separation of Church and State, but that has been used solely by intolerant liberals to rationalize their standing.

Intelligent design has not been debunked. Let's see any one of your published dissertations that proves it....many, many scientists, some of whom accept some levels of evolutionary theory, subscribe totally to Intelligent Design.

Anyone who says differently is showing their ignorance.


Ahh, the persistent argument of the faithful... "You can't disprove it!" I remember having this same conversation with my catholic friend when I was about 10 years old. Funny how the arguments don't get any more valid or intelligent the older you get. Ok...let me explain something here. It is impossible to "disprove" the existence of something that does not exist. (Especially when that said something is intangible and invisible). Its like saying "Prove to me that there are no ghosts or leprechauns!"

Hmm, wait. does that make me an "a-ghostist" or "a-leprachaunist" ? I guess so .

happy8


Quote:
America was founded on the Bible. Creation was taught in every school until Darwin came up with his theory. It used to be a REQUIREMENT to be a Christian if you wanted to run for office. Where has America gone? I believe whole-heartedly that Creationism should be taught in schools. In Science. Evolution is! And there is FAR more evidence supporting Creation


Congratulations! You win the award for the most ridiculous comment I have ever seen in the lush forums!

It might not be a requirement to run for office now, but it certainly still is a requirement to win. Where has America gone? Still lagging behind the rest of the western world in terms of dispelling these inane superstitions as far as I can tell. And please, please please, enlighten us as to the plethora of evidence supporting creation! And PS..."my mommy told me so", doesn't cut it.
Playmale
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:23:54 PM

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Posts: 551
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Nice volley!
Playmale
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:29:39 PM

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Posts: 551
Location: United States
MissJess wrote:
Creationism, I think should not be in the public school system. If a family or individual feels that strong about it or want that sort of education go to a catholic school or attend sunday mass. To have it in public school and making it manditory I think is like forcing religon...dontknow dontknow


I homeschool, and about 85% or so of the families that I meet that homeschool do it to give their children the religious education they want. (That's my own made up statistic based on my own informal conversations.)

Even so thes families and children are educated about beliefs and tolerant of others. In general these children are taught to think, not to simply conform and please the authority figure.
DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:14:42 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Jebru wrote:
For many years the world was flat, until someone came up with an alternative theory, and then that new theory was taught. Also, it was taught that the sun rotated around the earth, until a new theory was taught. There are many other theories like this that have been let go of over the years. So, of course once a new theory like evolution comes along, it will be taught at the expense of older theories.

That being said, I do believe in some form of creationism. It all has to start from somewhere. Even in big bang theory, if two specks of dust collided to create this, where did those specks come from? I have a far easier time believing that a supernatural being always was, than some inanimate object always exhisting. I don't necessarily believe in the christian god, but I definitely believe in some form of supernatural being.



This is something that most religious people aften bring out as an argument for creationism (or existence of god). "How does the world just exist? It had to have somebody or someting create it!"

Well...if a god created the world...then who created god? Why can the universe not simply exist, but a supernatural, all-knowing being can? We know the universe exists because we live in it. That seems to make more sense than putting faith in a deity that we do not know exists. Not only are you assuming that there is a diety, but you are assuming that said diety created the world that you live in, requiring two enormous leaps of faith.

And of course, theories change. That is the beauty of science. Many pro-religionists will say things like "science can't explain everything!" well of course it can't. Science never claims to explain everything. Science is merely the means of learning new information about the world. It always has been and always will be a work in progress.

When you turn over a rock to see what' underneath...that's science.

When you mix two chemicals together to see what happens...that's science.

When primitive man looked up at the sun and saw that big ball of fire in the sky and said "I don't know what that is...let's find out"...that's science.

If that same man looked up at that big ball of fire in the sky and said..."I don't know what that is...umm...I'm going to go ahead and say...it's magic!"

That's religion.
Rembacher
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:43:15 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
DamonX wrote:
Jebru wrote:
For many years the world was flat, until someone came up with an alternative theory, and then that new theory was taught. Also, it was taught that the sun rotated around the earth, until a new theory was taught. There are many other theories like this that have been let go of over the years. So, of course once a new theory like evolution comes along, it will be taught at the expense of older theories.

That being said, I do believe in some form of creationism. It all has to start from somewhere. Even in big bang theory, if two specks of dust collided to create this, where did those specks come from? I have a far easier time believing that a supernatural being always was, than some inanimate object always exhisting. I don't necessarily believe in the christian god, but I definitely believe in some form of supernatural being.



This is something that most religious people aften bring out as an argument for creationism (or existence of god). "How does the world just exist? It had to have somebody or someting create it!"

Well...if a god created the world...then who created god? Why can the universe not simply exist, but a supernatural, all-knowing being can? We know the universe exists because we live in it. That seems to make more sense than putting faith in a deity that we do not know exists. Not only are you assuming that there is a diety, but you are assuming that said diety created the world that you live in, requiring two enormous leaps of faith.

And of course, theories change. That is the beauty of science. Many pro-religionists will say things like "science can't explain everything!" well of course it can't. Science never claims to explain everything. Science is merely the means of learning new information about the world. It always has been and always will be a work in progress.

When you turn over a rock to see what' underneath...that's science.

When you mix two chemicals together to see what happens...that's science.

When primitive man looked up at the sun and saw that big ball of fire in the sky and said "I don't know what that is...let's find out"...that's science.

If that same man looked up at that big ball of fire in the sky and said..."I don't know what that is...umm...I'm going to go ahead and say...it's magic!"

That's religion.


I'm not going to debate you on religion. I'm not religious, but I do consider myself spiritual. There is a difference. I believe in a mystical being. For a simple reason. I am here. When I was two years old I was hit by a car while crossing a road. I broke my jaw, but didn't lose a single drop of blood. When the doctors checked me for internal injuries, they found a Wilms tumour, cancer on my kidney. If I hadn't got hit by a car, they probably wouldn't have found it until it was too late. That's too big of a coincidence for me not to believe in some spiritual being watching over me. That's me. If you don't believe the way I do, that's fine.

But why do you say that it is a bigger leap of faith to assume a diety, than to assume that something always existed? I have so many questions about big bang theory, or any other theory about how the world began. What existed before that? Where did it come from? Why don't we have any species today that are a cross between monkeys and humans if we evolved from them? There seems to be a far bigger genetical gap betweeen us and monkees, than monkees, and chimpanzees, or gorillas.

I guess since I believe in a diety, I'm willing to admit there are things we can never completely understand. But for me, if there is a spiritual being, it makes sense that they always were. And that they have the power to create. I find that far less of a leap of faith than the idea that a speck of dust existed for eternity, but then one day randomly collided with another speck of dust that existed for eternity.
Rembacher
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:57:05 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
To answer the actual question, I think if you are going to cover the beginning of the world in school, teach all the different ideas. But I don't recall ever learning about evolution, or creationism in school. I stopped taking sciences after grade 9, but the subject wasn't covered before that for me. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by not learning it in school.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:02:27 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 535,088
Playmale wrote:
MissJess wrote:
Creationism, I think should not be in the public school system. If a family or individual feels that strong about it or want that sort of education go to a catholic school or attend sunday mass. To have it in public school and making it manditory I think is like forcing religon...dontknow dontknow


I homeschool, and about 85% or so of the families that I meet that homeschool do it to give their children the religious education they want. (That's my own made up statistic based on my own informal conversations.)

Even so thes families and children are educated about beliefs and tolerant of others. In general these children are taught to think, not to simply conform and please the authority figure.

Not 100% on what your trying to say??? I think you basiclly said what I said if thats the education you want go out and seek it wheather it be alternative schooling or church! accept I didn't say or hint towards anything to do with authority figures??? thats where you lost me!
Playmale
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:14:37 PM

Rank: Smiley Guru

Joined: 7/16/2008
Posts: 551
Location: United States
MissJess wrote:
Playmale wrote:
MissJess wrote:
Creationism, I think should not be in the public school system. If a family or individual feels that strong about it or want that sort of education go to a catholic school or attend sunday mass. To have it in public school and making it manditory I think is like forcing religon...dontknow dontknow


I homeschool, and about 85% or so of the families that I meet that homeschool do it to give their children the religious education they want. (That's my own made up statistic based on my own informal conversations.)

Even so thes families and children are educated about beliefs and tolerant of others. In general these children are taught to think, not to simply conform and please the authority figure.

Not 100% on what your trying to say??? I think you basiclly said what I said if thats the education you want go out and seek it wheather it be alternative schooling or church! accept I didn't say or hint towards anything to do with authority figures??? thats where you lost me!


I was agreeing with you, and giving the example that many families I know do provide the education they want for exactly that reason. Then I added a little topic drift about how I feel public schools are more concerned with conformity than creating thinking individuals.
DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:56:23 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795

Quote:
I'm not going to debate you on religion. I'm not religious, but I do consider myself spiritual. There is a difference. I believe in a mystical being. For a simple reason. I am here. When I was two years old I was hit by a car while crossing a road. I broke my jaw, but didn't lose a single drop of blood. When the doctors checked me for internal injuries, they found a Wilms tumour, cancer on my kidney. If I hadn't got hit by a car, they probably wouldn't have found it until it was too late. That's too big of a coincidence for me not to believe in some spiritual being watching over me. That's me. If you don't believe the way I do, that's fine.


That really doesn't seem like that big of a coincidence. It happens all the time. Thousands more go undiagnosed. The fact that you "won the lottery" provides no basis for belief in a supernatural being.



Quote:
But why do you say that it is a bigger leap of faith to assume a diety, than to assume that something always existed? I have so many questions about big bang theory, or any other theory about how the world began. What existed before that? Where did it come from?


Don't you have the same questions about where your "deity" came from? Re-read my previous post.

Quote:
Why don't we have any species today that are a cross between monkeys and humans if we evolved from them? There seems to be a far bigger genetical gap betweeen us and monkees, than monkees, and chimpanzees, or gorillas.


This really isn't the place to talk about the specifics of evolution...maybe a new thread? But... We do have a cross between monkeys (monkees were a 70s rock band I believe) and us. The great apes. Chimps, Bonobos, gorillas and Oranguatans. And we did not evolve from monkeys. We and monkeys (and the great apes) both evolved from a common ancestor. It is a common misconception of the uneducated to think that we "evolved from monkeys".
castlequeen
Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:54:34 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/24/2009
Posts: 590
Oi. This could get ugly, but we've all managed to be reasonably calm. Bravo!
My own personal beliefs aside, I don't think we should teach evolution OR creationism in schools. Why? Because our schools are all flawed in so many ways. We have trouble teaching children proven facts like math and other basic things, our basic schools should stay away from things that require far more thought than the grade 1-12 child can handle. Teach them to think and question on their own, and THEN let them decide what way of thinking they like. There's room for all kinds of ways of thinking in this world. teach our kids to respect that, and let them find their own answers. My own answers took me far from what my parents wanted me to believe and be, and I firmly come down on the side of evolution, too much data backing it up, but intelligent design has it's place, here in Seattle we have a tree that I (still don't) know it's name, but the leaves when they fall spin in perfect rotation like a little helicopter. Was that a purely random chance? Or was it some celestial artist who "signed" his work with a neat flourish? I still don't know....

Additional note, I'm VERY surprised to find some rather hard core fundamentalist thinking here on a site devoted to dirty stories, shame on you!!! Pretty sure the Bible's against porn and erotica....

"A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere." - Groucho Marx
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:05:54 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,141
Location: United States
castlequeen wrote:
Oi. This could get ugly, but we've all managed to be reasonably calm. Bravo!
My own personal beliefs aside, I don't think we should teach evolution OR creationism in schools. Why? Because our schools are all flawed in so many ways. We have trouble teaching children proven facts like math and other basic things, our basic schools should stay away from things that require far more thought than the grade 1-12 child can handle. Teach them to think and question on their own, and THEN let them decide what way of thinking they like. There's room for all kinds of ways of thinking in this world. teach our kids to respect that, and let them find their own answers. My own answers took me far from what my parents wanted me to believe and be, and I firmly come down on the side of evolution, too much data backing it up, but intelligent design has it's place, here in Seattle we have a tree that I (still don't) know it's name, but the leaves when they fall spin in perfect rotation like a little helicopter. Was that a purely random chance? Or was it some celestial artist who "signed" his work with a neat flourish? I still don't know....

Additional note, I'm VERY surprised to find some rather hard core fundamentalist thinking here on a site devoted to dirty stories, shame on you!!! Pretty sure the Bible's against porn and erotica....


Personally, I don't think ANY subject should be off limits in school. Age-appropriate, maybe. But off limits altogether? Then you're counting on parents (who don't have a clue how to teach) to do the job. I'd rather have ALL the different alternatives taught by a professional teacher, with no bias toward any one system - THEN let me explain how I believe and why I believe it.

That said, there are plenty of trees that have seeds that helicopter down. Maple and Sycamore are probably the most common. I don't know which you have in Seattle.

And... why should spiritual people be against porn or erotica? There's nothing against it in the Bible. Read through the Song of Solomon once...

Quote:
How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries. How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine...



PirateKitty
Posted: Monday, July 19, 2010 5:50:53 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 5/29/2010
Posts: 35
Location: Queensland
I think it should not be taught.

I'd also like to point out (Like Wellmademale did above, although maybe in laymans terms) that Evolution exists.
What we can't prove is that humans evolved from apes. Yet (And hopefully never. I'd like to discover we evolved from cats, but I'm weird like that :)) You can't dismiss evolution just because you dont agree with this.

I also think any and all religion classes should be optional.
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