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A Mosque at ground zero. Options · View
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:44:03 AM

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Location: California
What do you guys think about the recent debates about building a Mosque on ground zero in New York.

I don't have a problem with Mosques but I don't see the need or understand the desire from the group wanting to build the Mosque specifically on ground zero. I would think that some kind of memorial or rebuilding the towers with various memorials on the building would be more appropriate.

If this is too heated of a topic please delete.



LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:03:15 AM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
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Sensitive subject indeed- but lets be respectful where it might drift into Religious territory and always remember that in the Think Tank, it's strictly



On to the subject at hand-

I heard about this on the radio yesterday, then went to look it up- here's the website of the Islamic group wanting to build the Mosque, which is more like a community center promoting faith and tolerance, judging by their literature: http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/cordoba-house-new-york-city

The first thing I heard was outrage that it was being built on ground zero, and that it was nothing short of aggression on the part of Muslims, disrespecting the American peoples' loss, etc. But if you look at the map on their website, then look at satellite photos of ground zero:



even though it's small, you can see that the site of this mosque is NOT ON ground zero, it's 2-3 blocks away, depending on how you judge it. You can find this confirmed elsewhere if you look for it.

So, it seems to me that you have people deliberately saying it's at 'ground zero' just to stoke anger and resentment, which even a 10-second look at the internet will show them that it's not the case at all. Then, I guess the problem is that it's too close to ground zero? How close is too close- 2 blocks? 1 mile? 50 miles from any of the three crash sites?

This criticism seems overboard. If it was TRULY getting built on the site of the twin towers, or any of the other buildings that were destroyed for that matter*, I'd definitely think it was out of line and better off someplace else, but it's not as if we're pushing aside memorials so that Muslims can point toward Mecca instead, so I can't really grasp the outrage.


*EDIT: Bikebum's correct- it is in a building that was damaged in the attacks. Not ground zero, but definitely affected by the 9-11 tragedy.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:14:02 AM

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I was just at ground zero last October and visited the Memorial Site nearby that outlines what is currently being built in it's place.

This is the winning design and how it will look upon completion. The actual location of the towers will be footprints "reflecting absence".








I suspect as LadyX said that the mosque is being built close to but not actually on Ground Zero. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It seeks to repair relations and the way the Islamic community is viewed after the disaster and separate the peaceful Islamic community from the radicals that perverted the religion in order to justify their own agenda. Let's not forget that it was a terrorist organization that was responsible for 911... not a religion.



Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:40:09 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,818
I really don't see a problem with it. I mean I guess a lot of people forget Muslims were killed on that fateful day to ya know? As you said DD the Mosque is being built off the site it's actually being built in a building that was damaged during the attack. Yeah I know in a dream world might happen but it sucks in this day and age that the people of this small world can't just all live with one another peacefully ya know? I mean I doubt half these people(terrorists) really even have a clue exactly what they are supposed to be fighting against.
LadySharon
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 12:05:32 PM

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I don't think that's a problem having a mosque near Ground Zero. I think the media has portrayed the Muslim religion as a terrorist-harboring hot bed, when it wasn't even remotely close to the truth, but that's a different topic.

If it was a shopping mall on the actual grounds of Ground Zero, I would have an issue with that.

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MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 12:07:03 PM

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Logically, I understand that the vast majority of the world's Muslims aren't part of this terroristic "war". I also understand that those few Muslims who DO wage war against the western world are just an extremely vocal minority. I've known and worked with Muslims and found them to be fair and honorable people, subject to the same variations in personality and character as non-Muslims. Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, no matter what their motivation or religious background.

That said...

Speaking for myself, I think building a mosque in an area that's in ANY way associated with the greatest terrorist act ever perpetrated is in poor taste. I don't care what stated purpose the mosque has. I don't care that it's not actually being built "on" ground zero. I, personally, think it's in poor taste. I wonder what the reaction would be if two dozen crazed rednecks found a way to blow up the Sultanahmet Mosque (see photo below). What would the reaction be if the Christian Coalition came in, viewed the smoking crater, and said, "That's okay, boys. Bob Schuller needs another Crystal Cathedral and this looks like JUST the spot..."

If the situation were reversed, the Muslims of the world would be howling. I'm all for tolerance, but fair is fair. There's a whole CITY they can build a mosque in. It doesn't have to be RIGHT THERE...


Sultanahmet Mosque



Jillicious
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 12:14:11 PM

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To promote faith and tolerance means nothing when they do not denounce the extremists. I have yet to hear a Muslim sect stand up and denounce the extremists of their religion. Without doing this tolerance doesn't mean shit.

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Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 12:15:26 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,870
Location: California
I didn't realize that it wasn't even on the ground where the twin towers actually stood. I just heard it on the news and they made it sound like that's what was going to be put there. Two blocks away is fine. I just had a problem with anything besides a memorial on ground zero. And although I understand that it's not the Muslim religion that attacked us the terrorists still do things in the name of the religion. In my mind it's like proposing to put a Christian church on a site where American troops killed a bunch of Iraqis. Just doesn't seem appropriate and might just stir up hateful feelings.

The pictures that were posted above seem like a fitting memorial.



Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:01:08 PM

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Jillicious wrote:
To promote faith and tolerance means nothing when they do not denounce the extremists. I have yet to hear a Muslim sect stand up and denounce the extremists of their religion. Without doing this tolerance doesn't mean shit.


Muslim leaders and organizations throughout the world have openly and consistently denounced Al-Queda from the very beginning... very publicly both in speech and in print.

I know it's a very emotional topic, and perhaps building a cultural centre that contains a mosque is just too soon (I just read up on it, and it's not just a mosque standing alone, there is a prayer room that will be contained within a cultural centre with a swimming pool, library etc open to all, not just for muslims).... however... I do think its important to be able to see the separation of an extremist/terrorist sect from a religion. Otherwise, it's a bit like saying that the Klan represents Christianity, isn't it?

Within every religion is the potential for some extreme, warped faction to alter the fundamentals of the religion to suit their own agenda. But you can't condemn everyone else and assume that this tiny minority speaks for the rest.

I would think the cultural centre/mosque would help to bridge the gaps in a more positive way, moving forward... Having said that, I don't know that I would want to hang out there if I was a Muslim, because I'll bet it will be a hotbed for attacks by people who don't understand the complexities of 911.


LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:05:27 PM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Jillicious wrote:
To promote faith and tolerance means nothing when they do not denounce the extremists. I have yet to hear a Muslim sect stand up and denounce the extremists of their religion. Without doing this tolerance doesn't mean shit.


Here's a link to a few of them, Jill.
Clerics issuing condemnations of Al Qaeda

Maybe a collection of Muslim clerics denouncing it isn't an entire sect like you asked for, but I've heard about plenty of Muslims expressing embarrassment that their religion is invoked for such terrible acts. I'm not willing to condemn a worldwide faith for not constantly issuing apologies and condemnations on behalf of people they don't even associate with (though in this case those condemnations do exist).
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:20:34 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
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Location: California
Dancing_Doll wrote:

I would think the cultural centre/mosque would help to bridge the gaps in a more positive way, moving forward... Having said that, I don't know that I would want to hang out there if I was a Muslim, because I'll bet it will be a hotbed for attacks by people who don't understand the complexities of 911.


That's one of the things I was thinking too. It could have the opposite effect of what the centers original intentions were.



Rembacher
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:51:27 PM

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Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
Magical_felix wrote:
Dancing_Doll wrote:

I would think the cultural centre/mosque would help to bridge the gaps in a more positive way, moving forward... Having said that, I don't know that I would want to hang out there if I was a Muslim, because I'll bet it will be a hotbed for attacks by people who don't understand the complexities of 911.


That's one of the things I was thinking too. It could have the opposite effect of what the centers original intentions were.


I would have to think they considered that possibility. It's probably what they want. It's easy to promote peace and understanding when you are among a homogenous group of people. Much harder to do when you have a variety of cultures. But it's also far more effective. Far more progress can be made if they face that criticism head on, rather than hide out in their own neighbourhoods. Just like the other thread, Meet A Black Person shows, however satirically, some people's only exposure to other cultures is through the media. This is a way to arouse the public's curiosity, and possibly increase understanding about the islamic faith in general.

And if they have to face a little heat while trying to do it, they'll tough it out, and show that even in the face of aggressive opposition, they are there to promote peace and understanding.
DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:55:29 PM

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Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
I don't see anything wrong with it (other than the problem I see with all religious institutions).

It's a pretty large area. At what block distance away would it be "appropriate" to have a mosque?

From what I've read, the building, which was damaged during the 9/11 attack, is currently is currently being used as a mosque. Now it is to be rebuilt as a mosque/community center for muslims instead of the old building being repaired.

I think that disallowing a religious building in an nation that claims to be based on religious freedom is a bit hypocritical and feeds into the same type of ignorance and intolerance practiced by religious extremists. Its a free country isn't it? Shouldn't the building's owners be able to with it whatever they want?

As a humorous interlude, here is a quote by right wing pundit Pamela Gellar re: the 9/11 moque:

Quote:
The Muslims are finishing the work of the Mufti al-Husseini, Hitlers ally and mass slaughterer of Jews during the the holocaust. Sixty years later, it’s the Muslims who are dragging the rest of the world with them, in their genocidal dreams of annihilating goodness, creativity, production, inventiveness, benevolence, charity, medicine, technology, and all of the gifts of the Jews. Our goodness makes them ill.


happy1
Remington
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 7:11:38 PM

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I don't agree with it. I feel that it's a slap in the face to the families that were affected by 9/11. Don't get me wrong, I know the terrorist were a very small percentage of the Muslim and Islamic faith, but how would they feel if christians wanted to build a church in the middle of Baghdad? They would be very upset over that.

DamonX wrote:
I think that disallowing a religious building in an nation that claims to be based on religious freedom is a bit hypocritical and feeds into the same type of ignorance and intolerance practiced by religious extremists. Its a free country isn't it? Shouldn't the building's owners be able to with it whatever they want?


People are upset because it's really close to ground zero. I wouldn't have a problem with it, if it were built somewhere else.

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DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:05:40 PM

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Remington wrote:
[quote]I don't agree with it. I feel that it's a slap in the face to the families that were affected by 9/11. Don't get me wrong, I know the terrorist were a very small percentage of the Muslim and Islamic faith, but how would they feel if christians wanted to build a church in the middle of Baghdad? They would be very upset over that.


Actually...there are quite a few churches in Baghdad.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:19:46 PM

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Posts: 2,140
Location: United States
DamonX wrote:
Remington wrote:
[quote]I don't agree with it. I feel that it's a slap in the face to the families that were affected by 9/11. Don't get me wrong, I know the terrorist were a very small percentage of the Muslim and Islamic faith, but how would they feel if christians wanted to build a church in the middle of Baghdad? They would be very upset over that.


Actually...there are quite a few churches in Baghdad.


How many of them were built next door to the site of a famous attack perpetrated by extremist Christians against the Muslim world in general?

ETA: The existence of churches and mosques in close proximity to each other shows that people are still people, and can get along if they wish. My opinion STILL is that there are probably better sites for this particular mosque than a couple blocks away from Ground Zero.

Remington
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:20:21 PM

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Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 1,753
DamonX wrote:
Remington wrote:
[quote]I don't agree with it. I feel that it's a slap in the face to the families that were affected by 9/11. Don't get me wrong, I know the terrorist were a very small percentage of the Muslim and Islamic faith, but how would they feel if christians wanted to build a church in the middle of Baghdad? They would be very upset over that.


Actually...there are quite a few churches in Baghdad.


Oh well maybe I should've looked that up before I spouted off. evil4 But I guess in that case I have no reason to be against the mosque being built there.

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nicola
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:59:05 PM

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As a site owner with a predominantly US audience, my gut reaction was to lock this thread, which I initially did.

I can't think of many worse subjects to bring up.

If you guys wish to talk about a topic which is incredibly sensitive to people in the US, then sobeit. Personally I think it's in very poor taste.

I wonder what New Yorkers make of this thread, or people who lost loved ones in the terrorist attack? Any here? I happen to have gone to University with someone who fortunately was taking the day off that day, his wife was giving birth to their third child. He worked for a huge Insurance company based in one of the Towers, a plane hit their floor and all of his colleagues lost their lives.
Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 12:53:16 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,870
Location: California
nicola wrote:
As a site owner with a predominantly US audience, my gut reaction was to lock this thread, which I initially did.

I can't think of many worse subjects to bring up.

If you guys wish to talk about a topic which is incredibly sensitive to people in the US, then sobeit. Personally I think it's in very poor taste.

I wonder what New Yorkers make of this thread, or people who lost loved ones in the terrorist attack? Any here? I happen to have gone to University with someone who fortunately was taking the day off that day, his wife was giving birth to their third child. He worked for a huge Insurance company based in one of the Towers, a plane hit their floor and all of his colleagues lost their lives.


I really didn't mean it to be in poor taste. This is one of the most mature forums I've ever posted in so I felt lush members could handle it. I just wanted to have a discussion about a topic that's been in American news lately. My friends and coworkers are too stupid to talk about this with so I brought it here. After the first few posts I quickly realized I wasn't that well informed on the topic but now I am.



MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 5:39:11 AM

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Speaking just for myself, I can understand Nicola's position. This topic could easily devolve into the kind of bashing and flaming that has no place on Lush. I may tend to flirt with that fine line myself from time to time, though I try to err on the side of caution. Let's all make note of this, and do our best to keep things clean.

mercianknight
Posted: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 7:03:43 AM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
Speaking just for myself, I can understand Nicola's position. This topic could easily devolve into the kind of bashing and flaming that has no place on Lush. I may tend to flirt with that fine line myself from time to time, though I try to err on the side of caution. Let's all make note of this, and do our best to keep things clean.


Ditto the above, but for the record..... NO WAILING MINARETS at nor near ground zero. 'nuff said.

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DamonX
Posted: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 10:32:37 PM

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I think that this thread has been conducted with the utmost respect and dignity. I have seen no "flaming" nor have I seen anyone "inciting hatred". Magical felix simply picked a news article of interest and decided to make an interesting post about it. Any topic could possibly deteriorate into anarchy (as we've seen before) whether it be about politics, religion or dick size. I think that stopping a thread based on what people "might say" is a bit...overbearing?

But..I'm not a politician or a site owner, so I know that there are other things to consider beyond what I might want to discuss. In any case, I think this thread has been given its "lethal injection"....Hey! Great segway for the captital punishment thread!
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:32:05 AM

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DamonX wrote:
In any case, I think this thread has been given its "lethal injection"....


Not so fast, Damonator! evil4

The injection was a placebo- all opinions welcome, just make sure to keep from slipping into anything that leads into racial or religious bigotry.

Plenty of room left in the think tank, climb on in. drunken
WellMadeMale
Posted: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:56:25 AM

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I don't believe that Muslims had anything to do with our government lying (about air quality/safety) to the rescue workers and other people who swept into lower Manhattan that day or the many months afterward, attempting to pitch in and help out, all while breathing in the most toxic soup of pollution outside of an actual working foundry exhaust stack or inside a Union-Carbide plant.

Here, wear this $.75 paper-mask and you'll be just fine.

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MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:36:05 AM

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Anti-Defamation League comes out against proposed mosque, Islamic center near ground zero


Quote:
NEW YORK (AP) β€” The nation's leading Jewish civil rights group has come out against the planned mosque and Islamic community center near ground zero, saying more information is needed about funding for the project and the location is "counterproductive to the healing process."

The Anti-Defamation League said it rejects any opposition to the center based on bigotry and acknowledged that the group behind the plan, the Cordoba Initiative, has the legal right to build at the site. But the ADL said "some legitimate questions have been raised" about funding and possible ties with "groups whose ideologies stand in contradiction to our shared values."

"Ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right," the ADL said in a statement. "In our judgment, building an Islamic center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain β€” unnecessarily β€” and that is not right."


There's more at the link.

WellMadeMale
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 8:21:57 AM

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Newt Gingrich vehemently opposes the mosque too. But he's also advocating the US finish up where Bush started and wax Iran and North Korea to complete the Evil Axis trifecta.

Just another Chickenhawk

The former House Speaker also told Newsmax that the planned mosque and community center in Lower Manhattan should be stopped. He suggested that, were he president, he would "declare the area around the World Trade Center a national military battlefield because that was a battle and it part of a real war."

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 2:04:16 PM

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Yeah, but you can count on the fingers of one foot how many people actually take Gingrich seriously. The ADL on the other hand...

LadyX
Posted: Monday, August 02, 2010 4:33:42 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
I can't help feeling like the opposition to this is at least in part about people's needless fear and- unfortunately- bigotry.

I honestly do understand why some people feel like it's a poor choice of location, but what I don't understand is why those that oppose it are drawing swords and making a giant deal about it. I don't disagree with the ADL, whose stance is "we understand that you have the right to build this here, we just wish you wouldn't."

What I don't understand is why this has to be about religion. Yes, the guys who ran planes into the buildings were Muslims, but the religion as a whole- as well as the group that's building this mosque- identifies none at all with those guys, so why do we group them all in as if they are al-qaeda themselves, poking fun at the US by building on ground zero just because they can? They could've worshiped any number of made-up gods and died in that god's honor, it would've made the disaster no less tragic or costly or deadly. This would be like getting upset about a church being built near the Oklahoma City bombing site because Tim McVeigh was a Christian. Somebody might counter that with "yes, but this is a mostly Christian nation, so it's not the same thing", which is to say, it's different based on what religion it is. If that's the case, how is it not religious bigotry?

When I watch TV, and I do too much of it lately, I see protesters in faraway states getting very angry about this. I'm not saying none of them had friends or families die in those attacks, but clearly their anger is about the larger point of "Muslims trampling our memorial site", as if it is turf that needs to be defended against that religion, which blows the issue up into a 'our values versus their values' thing, and that's when the needless fear creeps into it, making people act on emotion rather than facts.

If I'm way off base in your opinions, please let me know, just don't flame it up in the process. This is my point of view, open for picking apart logically and further discussion.

MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:52:12 PM

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LadyX wrote:
I can't help feeling like the opposition to this is at least in part about people's needless fear and- unfortunately- bigotry.

(snip)

If I'm way off base in your opinions, please let me know, just don't flame it up in the process. This is my point of view, open for picking apart logically and further discussion.



No, you're right. I know that I feel choosing that particular location for this mission is in poor taste. I don't have any logical reason why I feel that; it's something that goes beyond logic and strikes at the emotional underpinning that makes us all human beings. It's like I posted before - suppose a hard-core group of radical anti-Muslim Baptists managed to hijack several airliners from the United Arab Emirates or Saudi Airlines, and crashed those planes into several high-profile targets in Iran. A few years later, Someone else from a Baptist ministry decided he wanted to build a Christian YMCA building next to one of the crash sites. Can you imagine the outcry that would cause? The YMCA folks could talk all day long about how they're not the "bad Baptists", but do you think it would make a whit of difference? Prolly not.

People are bigoted and fearful. It goes in with the sayings "Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me" and "Once bitten, twice shy". We've been bitten, and hard. You can hardly blame us for being gun shy. Those backing the new mosque may be of pure intention, but for all the reasons posted above, I think they should pick a different location.


DamonX
Posted: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:28:54 PM

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Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
MrNudiePants wrote:
LadyX wrote:
I can't help feeling like the opposition to this is at least in part about people's needless fear and- unfortunately- bigotry.

(snip)

If I'm way off base in your opinions, please let me know, just don't flame it up in the process. This is my point of view, open for picking apart logically and further discussion.



No, you're right. I know that I feel choosing that particular location for this mission is in poor taste. I don't have any logical reason why I feel that; it's something that goes beyond logic and strikes at the emotional underpinning that makes us all human beings. It's like I posted before - suppose a hard-core group of radical anti-Muslim Baptists managed to hijack several airliners from the United Arab Emirates or Saudi Airlines, and crashed those planes into several high-profile targets in Iran. A few years later, Someone else from a Baptist ministry decided he wanted to build a Christian YMCA building next to one of the crash sites. Can you imagine the outcry that would cause? The YMCA folks could talk all day long about how they're not the "bad Baptists", but do you think it would make a whit of difference? Prolly not.

People are bigoted and fearful. It goes in with the sayings "Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me" and "Once bitten, twice shy". We've been bitten, and hard. You can hardly blame us for being gun shy. Those backing the new mosque may be of pure intention, but for all the reasons posted above, I think they should pick a different location.


Well, since Iran is Shi'ite Islam, and the UAE and Saudi Arabia are predominantly Sunni, the attack would probably be welcomed by anyone ignorant enough to care about that kind of thing. Probably all the same to you though huh? But...that's not the point. I thought America was supposed to rise above such infantile prejudices? I think that disallowing a mosque to exist, feeds into the same ignorance and fear that led to to many mosques being attacked, vandalized and desecrated after the 9/11 attacks. (As well as numerous Sikh temples which have absoulutely nothing to do with Islam.)

I'm still a little unsure of the problem in having a Mosque/community center in the area...What are the negatives in this situation? You actually think that Muslims might use the site to stage an attack? If so, then you are placing all muslims in the same category as the hijackers, which is beyond ignorant. What about the numerous mosques that already exist in Manhattan? Should they be wiped out? Or should they just make a perimeter around ground zero in which no non-christian should even be allowed to enter? At what distance would it be acceptable for a non-christian denomination to create community center? Oops. Slipping into hyberbole territory there....
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