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Granting amnesty to illegal immigrants Options · View
xCindyx3
Posted: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:25:27 PM

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Right now, the Obama administration is drafting a plan to "unilaterally" issue blanket amnesty for millions of illegal immigrants.

Just wondering everyones view on this. Whether you agree and think they should grant all the illegal immigrants a citizenship or disagree.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:51:24 PM

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Illegal is the operative word in illegal alien. How many murderers or rapists do you see going free on amnesty? None that I know of!!! If you want to immigrate to this country, I will 110% support you in your endeavor. However, do it the correct way by going through the proper channels. Get a visa, find a sponsor, learn the language and most importantly, find a job. I am in no way a racist, just a concerned citizen!!!
Rembacher
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 6:56:55 AM

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xXmtbkingXx wrote:
Illegal is the operative word in illegal alien. How many murderers or rapists do you see going free on amnesty?


That is some pretty slippery logic. I speed when I drive. That's an illegal activity. But it in no way means that I'm also a murdering rapist. Many, many, many illegal immigrants have jobs. The pick crops, mow lawns, clean houses, and many other jobs that don't pay as well, or aren't seen as being as desireable as what the general population would like. If you were to completely ban them, the economy would of some states would fall.

You have to be aware of your surroundings. At this point in time, there are so many illegal immigrants in the US that it would be impossible to find, and deport them all. But if you give them amnesty, give them a window of opportunity to register and become American citizens, then you can eliminate a large number of those. Since you don't want to keep doing that, at the same time, you will attempt to tighten the borders, which the US seems to almost continuosly be doing.

I have no problem with that at all.
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:32:35 AM

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xCindyx3 wrote:
Right now, the Obama administration is drafting a plan to "unilaterally" issue blanket amnesty for millions of illegal immigrants.


Where did you read this? As far as I can tell, Obama's inaction on this issue is what's causing a stir, not any plan that he's drafted.

It's been said by others on this website that neither 'side' really wants to tackle this issue, because it's more complex than any sides talking points make it out to be, and they know it, but also because having it as an open issue is way more valuable to them in politics. I find myself agreeing with this completely, the more I think about it.

The Democrats can play on sympathies and claim racism toward any 'get tough' plan, and the Republicans can play on fear, as in Arizona right now, claiming the other side supports lawlessness and is okay with putting god-fearing citizens at risk. If anything actually happened in terms of immigration reform, both sides would lose those tools to keep votes in their camp.

xCindyx3 wrote:
Just wondering everyones view on this. Whether you agree and think they should grant all the illegal immigrants a citizenship or disagree.


Two different issues here- nobody's arguing to take undocumented/illegal immigrants and make them citizens- that's a whole different process. Under the most generous plans anyone discusses, they simply are allowed to become legal residents.

I'll let others chime in before I go all multi-paragraph with my take, but I'll just say that the idea of rounding up millions of people and 'sending them back' seems totally unrealistic and more about emotional response to lawlessness with a nice dollop of racism, more so than it's about practical resolution to a real problem.
CloudStrife
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:33:18 AM

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They say America is a "free country" so why shouldn't they be granted citizenship? But there's way too many illegal immigrants, I doubt the government can even find them all.
xCindyx3
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 12:52:59 PM

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Location: Canada
[LadyX wrote:] Where did you read this? As far as I can tell, Obama's inaction on this issue is what's causing a stir, not any plan that he's drafted.[/LadyX wrote:]

I heard about it on Fox News.

My opinion on this is on the fence. On one hand, granting all the illegal immigrants amnesty would be good because then they would all be forced to pay taxes for living in the States. But on the other, I agree with xXmtbkingXx. They all should go through the normal process to become a citizen. And also with the unemployment rate way up, maybe some of these jobs that the illegal immigrants have, citizens would want to take.
Jillicious
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:03:57 PM

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Have you forgotten history already? Its only been 24 years since the last amnesty for illegal immigrants.
If you really want to know what amnesty will do just study up on the effects of the Immigration control and reform act of 1986.
The only personal opinion that I will include here is that the economy of the US is already under a lot of strain. This could make it much worse.
Magical_felix
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 8:41:22 PM

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Location: California
xCindyx3 wrote:
And also with the unemployment rate way up, maybe some of these jobs that the illegal immigrants have, citizens would want to take.



laughing8 I'd love to see the day that all of California's vineyards are being worked by all American workers.

Want to break your back in the hot Cali sun inbetween grapevine rows for 55 hours a week for 9-11 dollars an hour? Anyone? I think the California wine industry would love some American workers.



Guest
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 9:08:54 PM

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Magical_felix wrote:
xCindyx3 wrote:
And also with the unemployment rate way up, maybe some of these jobs that the illegal immigrants have, citizens would want to take.



laughing8 I'd love to see the day that all of California's vineyards are being worked by all American workers.

Want to break your back in the hot Cali sun inbetween grapevine rows for 55 hours a week for 9-11 dollars an hour? Anyone? I think the California wine industry would love some American workers.




Funny thing is sure there are a lot of people that would take a job like that yeah may not be a lot of money but for those of us out of work would be something.
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:42:01 AM

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bikebum1975 wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
xCindyx3 wrote:
And also with the unemployment rate way up, maybe some of these jobs that the illegal immigrants have, citizens would want to take.



laughing8 I'd love to see the day that all of California's vineyards are being worked by all American workers.

Want to break your back in the hot Cali sun inbetween grapevine rows for 55 hours a week for 9-11 dollars an hour? Anyone? I think the California wine industry would love some American workers.




Funny thing is sure there are a lot of people that would take a job like that yeah may not be a lot of money but for those of us out of work would be something.


All you need to do is go to a vineyard look for the boss and tell him you need a job. Hardworking Americans would be great on a ranch and they would most likely hire you. Problem is that most out of work Americans don't want those jobs. Most of are just not used to that kind of labor.



CloudStrife
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:04:30 AM

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Money is money...some Americans have no choice but to do that kind of labor.
Guest
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:24:39 AM

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Posts: 470,067
bikebum1975 wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
xCindyx3 wrote:
And also with the unemployment rate way up, maybe some of these jobs that the illegal immigrants have, citizens would want to take.



laughing8 I'd love to see the day that all of California's vineyards are being worked by all American workers.

Want to break your back in the hot Cali sun inbetween grapevine rows for 55 hours a week for 9-11 dollars an hour? Anyone? I think the California wine industry would love some American workers.




Funny thing is sure there are a lot of people that would take a job like that yeah may not be a lot of money but for those of us out of work would be something.


That's 2400+ dollars a month. Not too darn bad Bike. Wait. You have to pay taxes. Nevermind.
Guest
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:26:59 AM

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chefkathleen wrote:
bikebum1975 wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
xCindyx3 wrote:
And also with the unemployment rate way up, maybe some of these jobs that the illegal immigrants have, citizens would want to take.



laughing8 I'd love to see the day that all of California's vineyards are being worked by all American workers.

Want to break your back in the hot Cali sun inbetween grapevine rows for 55 hours a week for 9-11 dollars an hour? Anyone? I think the California wine industry would love some American workers.




Funny thing is sure there are a lot of people that would take a job like that yeah may not be a lot of money but for those of us out of work would be something.


That's 2400+ dollars a month. Not too darn bad Bike. Wait. You have to pay taxes. Nevermind.



Shit if I had that kind of work around here works for me LOL
LadyX
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:34:13 AM

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chefkathleen wrote:

That's 2400+ dollars a month. Not too darn bad Bike. Wait. You have to pay taxes. Nevermind.


Or not...I'm sure lots of these workers, legal and not, don't pay taxes, and employers that don't report illegal workers sure as hell aren't gonna pay payroll taxes, right?

All you really have to do is stay white and eventually die, Bike. Just sayin'...

But it raises another side to the issue- if you kick out all the illegal/undocumented workers, don't costs of doing business skyrocket in lots of areas, due to tax requirements for employers, and loss of money available to spend in stores and on family essentials etc. because of taxes paid by employees through paychecks?
Guest
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:42:47 PM

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Quote:
Or not...I'm sure lots of these workers, legal and not, don't pay taxes,


Why are you sure of that?
LadyX
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:09:12 PM

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Location: United States
chefkathleen wrote:
Quote:
Or not...I'm sure lots of these workers, legal and not, don't pay taxes,


Why are you sure of that?


Well, more than 1 in 10 Americans admit they don't file yearly taxes- hell, I know five or six that don't file at all, and I think my dad hasn't filed in years (as with most things, he'll get his eventually). People feel like they don't have the money to spare to give to the government- or they're just lazy and say "f**k it". Also, it's well known- besides being logical- that a high number of undocumented workers don't file taxes for fear of being identified and 'sent back'. The ones that do file despite their illegal alien status are to be commended for doing the right thing, but many choose to stay invisible as far as the IRS is concerned.

Which is all a shame, because the IRS isn't really interested in contacting border patrol to send out the round-up, they're just happy to have more people filing. Plus, lower incomes and bigger households often don't owe government anything at all come the end of the year.

Apparently, 47% of Americans don't pay anything even after filing, due to income, child, and other credits.

As far as employers go- if you put your people on cash pay, you can evade all the payroll taxes, and then the employees would have to go out of their way to file taxes, likely losing their jobs in the process for outing their boss. I've done lots of work on a cash basis- and by cheating the US- employers and workers save a lot of money- unfortunately, it's pretty common.

So, I think it's safe to say that the migrant/field/hand-laborers in question are paying taxes at something well short of 100%.
Guest
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:35:06 PM

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What a shame. Think of all the money they could be getting in IRS refunds. I know a guy that has 3 kids that got back 9k last this year.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:38:50 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
What a shame. Think of all the money they could be getting in IRS refunds. I know a guy that has 3 kids that got back 9k last this year.


Exactly angry7 I'm sure my dumbass Pops would be getting money back if he filed all these years- instead, he'll get a big penalty crap-sandwich when the IRS catches up to him, if they ever do, or care to. Reading about all this, I saw that there are over a billion dollars in unclaimed refunds for just the kind of people we're talking about.

Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:42:52 PM

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Trust me that employers do pay payroll taxes. People with farm labor contractor licenses are watched very closely. The government isn't that dumb. They will notice if you have no reported payroll and you also have 400 acres of land to work. A lot of illegals pay social security that they will never see. Some (with my experience) pay taxes out of their checks as well but they don't get tax returns. Some employers do pay in cash under the table but that is done by small time employers. Big agriculture business does pay taxes, a shit load of them. The government knows what's going on just like we do. They choose not to do anything about it.

Really if you are American and out of a job you are valuable to any agriculture employer. You can speak English, you have a drivers license and you are legal. Go to a ranch and ask for a job. Tell them any special skills you have and they will give you a chance to prove yourself. Just don't expect health, dental and 25 bucks an hour...



LadyX
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:44:50 PM

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Magical_felix wrote:
Trust me that employers do pay payroll taxes. People with farm labor contractor licenses are watched very closely. The government isn't that dumb. They will notice if you have no reported payroll and you also have 400 acres of land to work. A lot of illegals pay social security that they will never see. Some (with my experience) pay taxes out of their checks as well but they don't get tax returns. Some employers do pay in cash under the table but that is done by small time employers. Big agriculture business does pay taxes, a shit load of them. The government knows what's going on just like we do. They choose not to do anything about it.

Really if you are American and out of a job you are valuable to any agriculture employer. You can speak English, you have a drivers license and you are legal. Go to a ranch and ask for a job. Tell them any special skills you have and they will give you a chance to prove yourself. Just don't expect health, dental and 25 bucks an hour...


Applause good stuff, Jack, reporting from Cali. And those opportunities are happening in a state with unemployment thats way above national average, too.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:27:45 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
Quote:
Or not...I'm sure lots of these workers, legal and not, don't pay taxes,


Why are you sure of that?


Because paying taxes is one way for immigration to come knocking... I dont really have the time to explain it to you in more detail right now, but Im sure you will figure it out.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 10:12:09 AM

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Nimaethap wrote:
chefkathleen wrote:
Quote:
Or not...I'm sure lots of these workers, legal and not, don't pay taxes,


Why are you sure of that?


Because paying taxes is one way for immigration to come knocking... I dont really have the time to explain it to you in more detail right now, but Im sure you will figure it out.


Thank you anyway. LadyX did a fine job of it.
HaileSelassie
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 3:58:16 PM

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You have it backwards. NOT paying taxes is an excellent way for the federales to come knocking. Illegals pay on average 30% more into the government than they get back in services. One major example being social security, they'll never get a dime of that back.

I don't file taxes. Know why? I earn so little I don't OWE taxes. Audit me all you want, I don't give a shit. As for those of you reciting the typical "if they want to be here why don't they come here legally?" line, the answer is quite simple: if you have no family in the US and no college degree, you're fucked. Otherwise, have fun waiting a decade and a half.

Edit: and I doubt he's offering blanket amnesty, that would be an excellent form of political suicide.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 4:59:22 PM

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Quote:
You have it backwards. NOT paying taxes is an excellent way for the federales to come knocking. Illegals pay on average 30% more into the government than they get back in services. One major example being social security, they'll never get a dime of that back.


Both are true. If you're illegal, yet paid for the bogus social security number with matching ID docs, and your employer pays payroll taxes on your earnings, then yes you're asking for the IRS to nail you if you don't file. That's true no matter what your status, actually. Your not filing due to your individual situation is a separate issue. If you are in the US illegally, and are paid in cash, then you're raising red flags if you DO pay taxes, because how do you file if you have no documentation? Answer- you don't.

Quote:
As for those of you reciting the typical "if they want to be here why don't they come here legally?" line, the answer is quite simple: if you have no family in the US and no college degree, you're fucked. Otherwise, have fun waiting a decade and a half.

Edit: and I doubt he's offering blanket amnesty, that would be an excellent form of political suicide.


ding!ding! Exactly correct on both counts.
SixtyMinuteMan
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:04:46 PM

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Location: San Diego
Undocumented workers do pay taxes, in fact Social Security estimates that they're worth $6 to $7 billion- that's billion, with a b- to the system that they'll never claim. They don't file for returns, but that very much does not mean that they don't pay. And contrary to what Faux News likes to scream, they're ineligible for welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc, 90% of the men are employed, and they aren't criminals any more than the rest of the population. They're just people looking for a better life, who have enough guts to risk the border crossing to get it and enough work ethic to earn it once they're here.

$9 to $11 is very optimistic for a wage estimate. They make the minimum wherever they are when they're working for an employer who's filing payroll as required, and they make a lot less than minimum for a criminal employer.

I never understand how people talk themselves into this hate. We're blaming people for wanting to come to the US? I thought we all felt that this is the best country on earth and everyone should idolize it?

There are, at any given time, somewhere between 4 and 7 million undocumented immigrants in this country. It is a far, far smaller percentage of the population than the Irish mass immigration represented in the middle of the 19th century, and less than a lot of other European migrations at their peak. And unlike the Irish, who were unskilled, broke, and desperate, the majority of Latin immigrants are coming here directly to a job. They contribute to society, contribute to the economy, and are generally the salt of the earth.

And to affirm something that was mentioned up-thread, no amnesty is being discussed. Reform is being discussed. The 1986 reform was not amnesty either.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:10:55 PM

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SixtyMinuteMan wrote:


I never understand how people talk themselves into this hate. We're blaming people for wanting to come to the US? I thought we all felt that this is the best country on earth and everyone should idolize it?



To that statement it's not that the US doesn't want people coming into the country it's just do it legally is what the fight is really about.
SixtyMinuteMan
Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:21:00 PM

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Location: San Diego
bikebum1975 wrote:



To that statement it's not that the US doesn't want people coming into the country it's just do it legally is what the fight is really about.


Go to HaileSelassie's link. Read that hot mess. Then tell me: if you lived in Mexico, especially one of the areas of Mexico that is presently an open drug war, would you wait years for a chance that might not even come? Or would you get your family to the "land of the free" by any means necessary?

Thank god my ancestors emigrated illegally during the Potato Famine. We were the original wetbacks. And thank god we're correctly colored to subsequently blend into society. WASPs were heavily prejudiced against the Irish when we arrived, but after a couple generations we lost the accent and blended right in. If we were brown? Hmm...
mercianknight
Posted: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:15:33 AM

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Location: whispering conspiratorially in your ear, Bermuda
Wow! Kudos to Cindy for lighting the touch paper on this one, and congrats to Lushies for keeping it respectable.

My knee-jerk reaction is to round up all the illegals and deport them, however.....

For every justified deportation you'll find a sob story of why the illegals can't be sent back (such a tried and tested abuse - just ask any Brit). Plus, no sooner have you gone to the expense of deporting them, than they come back with their pals. If only real life was more like the 'Star Trek Universe'.

Despite the blathering unsubstantiated claims of what illegals "bring to a country", the truth is they, at best, suppress market forces re wages and benefits for legal residents and, at worst, provide unintended fodder for the 'black economies' (no, not a racial slur you donkeys) of prostitution, controlled drugs, slavery et al. Another amnesty would be a mistake.

**runs for cover** boxing

"Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages, English and bad English." - Korben Dallas, from The Fifth Element

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must man be of learning from experience?" - George Bernard Shaw
LushPrincess
Posted: Thursday, August 05, 2010 2:11:25 PM

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Location: AZ
This topic hits close to home and for now I’ll just stick to calling BULLSHIT on the whole “they take our jobs!” Line.

I like your posts Felix, but I really don’t know any farm hands that make $9.00 bucks an hour, hell not even the foreman makes that much; and since you bike and all the other unemployed “citizens” want a job so bad, here’s a link that should help you out. http://www.takeourjobs.org/

The reality of the situation is this, if you’re sitting at home making $200.00 off unemployment in your nice, cool air conditioned living room. Chances are you’re not getting up off that couch to work the fields 12 – 14 hours a day for the same amount… Yet, that low life illegal you want deported will, and he/she will feel his/her family and handle his business without complaining.
Magical_felix
Posted: Thursday, August 05, 2010 2:51:09 PM

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Joined: 4/3/2010
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Location: California
LushPrincess wrote:
This topic hits close to home and for now I’ll just stick to calling BULLSHIT on the whole “they take our jobs!” Line.

I like your posts Felix, but I really don’t know any farm hands that make $9.00 bucks an hour, hell not even the foreman makes that much; and since you bike and all the other unemployed “citizens” want a job so bad, here’s a link that should help you out. http://www.takeourjobs.org/

The reality of the situation is this, if you’re sitting at home making $200.00 off unemployment in your nice, cool air conditioned living room. Chances are you’re not getting up off that couch to work the fields 12 – 14 hours a day for the same amount… Yet, that low life illegal you want deported will, and he/she will feel his/her family and handle his business without complaining.


I don't know how things in the Arizona Agriculture industry are but in Northern California 9 bucks an hour is the norm for the regular ranch workers. The foremans can make up to 12.50 an hour and the supervisors up to 15. There's a lot of money in farming, especially wine grapes. It's a hard job and if you've ever done it you'll feel that even at 10 bucks an hour you're underpaid. I wish you guys could see how many Americans are not willing to take a 9.25/hour job minimum 50 hours/week because they feel it's too hard. They want to start as foremans in a nice big truck without learning the ropes. I've done agriculture my whole life, I grew up in a vineyard... This is the way it is in California. Any farmer wishes to have Americans working for them that don't have the hurdles that illegals do but they are nowhere to be found. It's like this in the wineries too...



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