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DamonX
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 2:13:04 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
An exchange with my good friend MrNudiepants a few weeks ago got me thinking...

He seemed to imply that I thought myself better than he since I had been to university. This puzzled me for a while. After all, can't anyone go to university? Does it really imply a different level of status?

But then I realized that I was thinking from a Canadian point of view. Unbeknownst to most canucks, our government actually subsidizes about 70% of our college fees which decreases costs considerably. Combined with our easily gained student loans and grants, anyone that wants to...can go to college.

I think we all take this for granted, when compared to our neighbors to the south where tuition costs alone run anywhere from 10 to 40 thousand dollars.

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, who made that argument that the gvernment wastes a lot of money on college students who go for one or two years, party their asses off and then drop out. He suggested that everyone who graduates high school should be given a lump sum of money to be used as they please. That way, they could use it for college, start their own business, go to plumbing school or save it for a rainy day. He made the argument that the government favours certain career choices by subsidizing university. I found this to be an interesting idea, although In practice, I don't think it would work very well for obvious reasons.

So what do you think? Is it a good use of tax payers money to subsidize post secondary education? Or would you rather have all students pay their own way without any government help?
Guest
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 2:50:08 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,823

I think you are mis-led DX, assuming that anyone in Canada can go to college or uni ... because it is partially subsidized and the ease in which government funded student grants are handed out.

The actual criteria to GET INTO uni is your admissions - not the funding associated with schooling.

A dear friend of mine, who had already obtained his MBA in Quebec tried four times to get into UBC Law. It wasn't because of poor LSAT's scores, nor was it because he needed assistance for school fees. (He actually paid for his entire year with one payment, and then, assisted a few other students in their fees for books.)

Anyways ....

Between students that are international students who have the smarts, who pay top dollar for their education, and are often not a burden to the school in any way are usually high on the picking list. Next, those students that show thru other courses, other volunteering, other sacrifices that also have crazy grade point averages get in. Students fresh out of Grade 12 with scholarships are next. Lastly, is the person who decides at 28 (or whatever age) to return to school because they are tired of being a barista and want to become a school teacher - asking for grants and moving back into the parent(s) home or in with friends.

Again, case in point with my friend, he had letters of recommendation from various people in the legal field and in business and personal letters attesting to his desire to obtain a JD while putting his businesses on hold for 3 years. What swayed it to his favour? I think he left out his porn-site start up in business.

So - to the simple question of whether the government should assist in funding schooling for people?

Yes - there are tons of people out there who need help to get started and will somewhere down the road, be self-sufficient in their chosen field, and may in time, assist others just like themselves starting out.

(Yes, DX ... I am an eternal optimist!)

Van



DamonX
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:22:07 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Quote:
think you are mis-led DX, assuming that anyone in Canada can go to college or uni ... because it is partially subsidized and the ease in which government funded student grants are handed out.

The actual criteria to GET INTO uni is your admissions - not the funding associated with schooling.

A dear friend of mine, who had already obtained his MBA in Quebec tried four times to get into UBC Law. It wasn't because of poor LSAT's scores, nor was it because he needed assistance for school fees. (He actually paid for his entire year with one payment, and then, assisted a few other students in their fees for books.)


Those are different things Van. Everyone can go to college. Not everyone can go to law school. Professional schools are competetive. I never said that anyone could get into any program that they want. Programs like Law and Medicine have extremely high standards, and for good reason. There are also differences in academic standards between institutions based on the limited number of spots available.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 4:05:31 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,823
DamonX wrote:

He seemed to imply that I thought myself better than he since I had been to university. This puzzled me for a while. After all, can't anyone go to university? Does it really imply a different level of status?

But then I realized that I was thinking from a Canadian point of view. Unbeknownst to most canucks, our government actually subsidizes about 70% of our college fees which decreases costs considerably. Combined with our easily gained student loans and grants, anyone that wants to...can go to college.

et al ...

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, who made that argument that the gvernment wastes a lot of money on college students who go for one or two years, party their asses off and then drop out. He suggested that everyone who graduates high school should be given a lump sum of money to be used as they please. That way, they could use it for college, start their own business, go to plumbing school or save it for a rainy day. He made the argument that the government favours certain career choices by subsidizing university. I found this to be an interesting idea, although In practice, I don't think it would work very well for obvious reasons.

So what do you think? Is it a good use of tax payers money to subsidize post secondary education? Or would you rather have all students pay their own way without any government help?


You have used college and university throughout your post - hence citing uni in specific, as I interact daily with UBC law. If you meant College, perhaps you should have indicated that.

So, can anyone get into the plumber's program at a college? I am certainly under the impression that secondary education seats for students are at a premium. The RN program at BCIT has a 2 to 3 year wait list - and you had better be volunteering and taking extra courses, to ensure you will be accepted into the program after an interview a year or more down the road. Though, admissions into the LPN degree at Douglas College is only about a year or so waiting list it is with less stringent requirements.

I have no idea about plumbing certificates here. All I know, first hand, is that there are wait lists for students in all areas of the arts and the professional degrees that you observed. Seats are at a premium and the majority of those seats are taken by international students who can pay the top dollar.

So again .... maybe not only can the government assist students in obtain degrees to further our society - but they could also ante-up some funding for more dearly needed seats!

Van



Guest
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:53:48 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,823
i dont think a college education conveys that a person is more intelligent than another. i know a guy with a BA thats an idiot and a man who quit school at 16 but yet commands the english language like no other.

but id love to see some of the money my government wastes, er, spends, be spent on education. your friend makes a good point tho Damon. In order to prevent the party kids from getting a free, or at least cheap party, it needs to be strictly regulated. (another thing i think america sucks at) so like...3.0 or better grade average from semester 1 to keep the subsidy would be a fair answer to me.
Rembacher
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 11:42:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
As a current Ontario university student, I disagree with the statement that everyone can go. Funding may be relatively easy to get, but it does not cover everything. If you are like me and don't have parents who can afford to help you out, you have to have at least a part time job, and often additional loans on top of the government assistance. But there comes the rub. If you don't have consistent or substantial employment you can't get those additional loans without a co-signer. My parents weren't acceptable co-signers to my bank, if it wasn't for my grandfather, I would have been unable to go to school.

If someone needs a certain level of education, then I believe that the government should make that level available to them. In the past, it was high school education. Then, at least in Canada you could get a decent job with a community college education. Now it seems that you need a university education to get an entry level job. If it takes that level of education just to get your foot in the door, then the government should make it so that everyone has a chance at that. Although personally, I have no clue why someone needs 4 years of university education to get a data entry job, but that's more an industry situation than an education one, so a subject for another thread.
inepa
Posted: Saturday, September 04, 2010 11:53:41 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/18/2010
Posts: 139
Location: Alotau
You guys are bloody lucky to be spoon fed...I had to pay for my schooling from Grade 1 to college...The government only provided the school and the teachers period...nothing else
BigDaddyRich
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 12:30:18 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/9/2010
Posts: 668
Location: Ridge Manor, Florida, United States
I don't think that your any better because you have a college education. I went a while, well until I went to work for a University before I got one. I was very fortunate to work at one where they would allow you to get your degree for free, as well as your children and spouse

These days a High School education, while looking for work is kind of like a GED use to be. There are so many people out of work, that a college educated person looks better, even though they most likely are not any smarter. And just as well, Masters and PHD are out of work so just having a two or four degree isn't any better than high school. But either way they shouldn't look down at you, they are just more in debt paying those school loans.

Well that's just my opinion, sorry if you don't like.

BigDaddyRich
rxtales
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 6:49:18 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/28/2008
Posts: 2,589
Location: Newcastle, United Kingdom
Uck University!

I am right in the middle of all of that for the third time in a row. During my senior year I did my SATs and got a 2200, which allowed me to get into all of the schools I applied to in the US. However I had no interest in going to the US. Money was the major issue, but there were other reasons. So I decided to take a gap year and in September last year I applied to study Physiology and accepted a place in Glasgow in Sep 2010. I only chose that subjected because I was forced to choose something and was thinking it was something that interested me. Then I realised that it didn't and I called and said they should give my place to someone else. So now it's September again and I am thinking about applying again, and if I end up going this year is a good year to go, but I still have no idea what I want to study if anything.

Finance is a big consideration when thinking about school, it makes it hard to go abroad. In England school fees are heavily subsidised and uni fees are even lower in Scotland (free if you are a scottish citizen I believe). And you can get pretty good plans to help with school fees if you can not afford them, but like Jebru said there are other costs to think of. But lower school fees mean that I will have lower loans and I would hopefully have a job to cover living expenses. There is a lot of talk in the Uk about how much harder it is to get into school, because of the economy - more people are applying. I have been told it may be better for me to apply as an international student (I hold both a UK and a US passport), because I will have a higher chance of getting in, but tuition will be much much much higher.

I definitely think secondary education for those who wish to go should be subsidized by the government. Long as you get the grades and work hard there shouldn't be anything else that prevents a person from getting an education. However, I also think that a university degree shouldn't have anything to do with status. I like to think I am some what intelligent and have gotten the grades to get into most universities that I could apply to, and if I choose not to go none of that would change. Someone shouldn't be considered "better" than me just because they have a degree.

I do understand that jobs may be a bit more limited without a degree. That's okay, there are other things I want to do, where I know I don't need a degree. I just got my dive master and am thinking about becoming an instructor when I can save up the money. I still will do some studying to get certified to do what I want to do (there is quite a bit of physics and physiology), why would a philosophy major be any "better" than me?

Sorry if I went a little off topic there.
LadySharon
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 7:22:03 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/5/2007
Posts: 2,106
Location: The Tundra, United States
As someone who decided at 28 to go back to school, I went back to school because I made mistakes at 18-19 that I shouldn't have made. Yes, I skipped classes all of the time and had a scholarship, my punishment was flunking out of school in the end. I took a part-time job to pay the student loans back, then got a full-time job before finally quitting that one late last year to return to school to finish what I started ten years ago.

Now, I am in community college thanks to financial aid that covered everything for me (books, fees, unlimited bus pass, etc.) and I am grateful. I have the intention of transferring to a four-year university to get my Bachelor's degree, and I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth!

I'm a hell of a lot smarter now about my education than I was then, and I am determined now to get my degree and be in my career of choice.



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DamonX
Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:32:05 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 795
Quote:
You have used college and university throughout your post - hence citing uni in specific, as I interact daily with UBC law. If you meant College, perhaps you should have indicated that.


Maybe I should have. I used the two terms because they are often used interchangebly in common speaking in the US. I'll clarify.

From a financial standpoint, anyone can go to college or University. From an academic standpoint, people need to work to get where they want.

Quote:
All I know, first hand, is that there are wait lists for students in all areas of the arts and the professional degrees that you observed. Seats are at a premium and the majority of those seats are taken by international students who can pay the top dollar.


Most professional programs have waitlists to put the people that don't make the cut academically. They are competetive. It's not simply about numbers. The best people get in, and the others are rejected. The ones on the cusp are put on the waiting list and might get in if a spot opens up. If not, then they have to re-apply the next year. A friend of mine had to apply to Med school for four consecutive years before getting in. Vocational schools are different, and their admission requirements differ depending on the program.

That's a bit off topic though. This thread is about governments subsidizing post secondary education.


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