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A Mosque at ground zero. Options · View
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:35:28 AM

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Posts: 2,138
Location: United States
eiotis123 wrote:
"I realize that things aren't that simple. Back in those days, the "establishment" needed a violent wake-up call because all those agencies that had been established to provide educations, and hospital care, and enforce laws weren't doing their job... if the victims happened to be non-whites. Those days have passed. "

No, they haven't. However, for most white people it has, since on the face of most political/social norms nowadays, it is well understood that one should not be openly racist or overtly repressive against a group due to race/religion.

"They should be no different, and they should get no special treatment because they're Muslims."

They weren't until hate filed ignorant fellow citizens made them different. They did not ask for special treatment, but they are getting it because they are Muslim. However, the "special treatment" is being likened to those crazy bastards that brought the Trade Center down. I don't believe Germans nowadays would want to be likened to Nazi Germany, and I don't think white people would want to be likened to the good ol boys of the clan.



I'n not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that non-whites are being denied medical care, or other emergency services because of their color? Or are you just saying that there are still bigots in the world? If the former, I'd challenge you to find some cases. If the latter - then I'd say that there will always be bigots in the world. It's part of our genetic code, and you'll never end it until we actually breed it out of our race (the human race).

Are you also saying that Muslims should get preferential treatment over all other builders of public construction projects, because of their religion? Because my position is that all building projects should be judged based on one set of rules, not based on the religious orientation of the builder. It's really easy to see why many Americans liken all Muslims to "those crazy bastards that brought the Trade Center down", even though it may be wrong to do so. It would be a lot easier to defend the builders of this community center if Muslim leaders worldwide took a more definitive stance against terrorism, but they don't. Bigotry is fed by fear and ignorance, and the only way Muslims can combat these bigots is to be more open and willing to communicate with them, and show them that they have nothing to fear.

LadyX
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 10:35:02 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
MrNudiePants wrote:
It's really easy to see why many Americans liken all Muslims to "those crazy bastards that brought the Trade Center down", even though it may be wrong to do so.


How is it so easy? Why should that religion be on the hook for what happened? Crazy bastards populate any group of people, religion or not. Last I checked, we still weren't blaming Christianity on the Oklahoma City bombing, but then again, there are a lot more Christians, and they don't usually wear headscarves, so there's probably some good old fashioned "hate-what-you-don't-understand plus fear-based bigotry going around. If you're saying it's easy for mouth-breathing retards to stereotype followers of Islam as terrorists, the I will agree with that. But reasonable people? I can't see it.

MrNudiePants wrote:
It would be a lot easier to defend the builders of this community center if Muslim leaders worldwide took a more definitive stance against terrorism


You mean like, for instance, these hundred-plus examples of Muslims condemning terror and/or violent jihad?

Or maybe you meant specifically Islamic leadership, such as these confirmed instances of Imams and Clerics condemning terror attacks., and that's to say nothing of what gets said in local prayer rooms and mosques worldwide, at local levels.

I hear intelligent people, such as you and Jillicious specifically in this thread, say things like "Muslims won't condemn this behavior" and it confuses me, because for such normally smart, well-read people, this is quite an ignorant thing to spout off, since it's just not true at all.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 10:42:26 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,225
Location: West Coast
MrNudiePants wrote:

It would be a lot easier to defend the builders of this community center if Muslim leaders worldwide took a more definitive stance against terrorism, but they don't.



You may find this website useful (Muslims Against Terrorism). It's the first anti-terrorism NGO in the world for global peace and justice.
http://www.m-a-t.org/

Along with the site LadyX mentioned reviewing a very comprehensive list of Muslim leaders, scholars and organizations that have condemned terrorism, I think there is more than enough evidence available.

I'd have to ask what you would feel is a sufficient enough stance against terrorism to convince you that muslims are not terrorists? I'm interested in your answer on this one.

MrNudiePants wrote:

Bigotry is fed by fear and ignorance.


Agreed. Many of the posts in this thread are certainly evidence of this.


MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:00:00 AM

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LadyX wrote:

How is it so easy? Why should that religion be on the hook for what happened? Crazy bastards populate any group of people, religion or not. Last I checked, we still weren't blaming Christianity on the Oklahoma City bombing, but then again, there are a lot more Christians, and they don't usually wear headscarves, so there's probably some good old fashioned "hate-what-you-don't-understand plus fear-based bigotry going around. If you're saying it's easy for mouth-breathing retards to stereotype followers of Islam as terrorists, the I will agree with that. But reasonable people? I can't see it.


Many people do blame organized Christianity for fomenting an atmosphere of intolerance where it seems like bombing abortion clinics and shooting gynecologists (not to mention burning Korans) are appropriate things to do. I don't, but many do. Just as I personally don't blame all Muslims for the acts of an insane group. It's not necessary to be a "mouth-breathing retard" to be insane enough that you believe your hand carries out the will of God (or Allah). As much planning goes into terror attacks, I have to believe that many terrorists are quite intelligent - but there's no law of nature saying you can't be intelligent and also insane.

LadyX wrote:
You mean like, for instance, these hundred-plus examples of Muslims condemning terror and/or violent jihad?

Or maybe you meant specifically Islamic leadership, such as these confirmed instances of Imams and Clerics condemning terror attacks., and that's to say nothing of what gets said in local prayer rooms and mosques worldwide, at local levels.

I hear intelligent people, such as you and Jillicious specifically in this thread, say things like "Muslims won't condemn this behavior" and it confuses me, because for such normally smart, well-read people, this is quite an ignorant thing to spout off, since it's just not true at all.



Dunno, Hon. I haven't seen any speeches made, or televised, but then again I don't watch much Arabic television. Maybe I don't watch the news enough, or maybe I just don't watch the right news programs. I just post my observations on a particular subject. if I were a Muslim, and people considered me to be an influential leader, I'd make it my personal agenda to see to it that there was always a story being run, somewhere, giving out the informaiton that I don't agree with terrorist attacks, or killing innocent people. Maybe I want pie-in-the-sky, but that's what I would want to see happening.

MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:03:18 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


I'd have to ask what you would feel is a sufficient enough stance against terrorism to convince you that muslims are not terrorists? I'm interested in your answer on this one.


I want to see billboards, news stories, radio shows, TV shows, full-page New York Times ads, movies-of-the-week, HBO Specials, and live pay-per-view events showing Muslims executing convicted terrorists by cutting their heads off with dull machetes. Yeah. That'll be enough.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:10:07 AM

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Joined: 2/17/2010
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Location: West Coast
MrNudiePants wrote:
if I were a Muslim, and people considered me to be an influential leader, I'd make it my personal agenda to see to it that there was always a story being run, somewhere, giving out the informaiton that I don't agree with terrorist attacks, or killing innocent people. Maybe I want pie-in-the-sky, but that's what I would want to see happening.


I think they already did that. It's just that the people who seem especially concerned about it, aren't bothering to read it. There are a list of campaigns on the site link I've attached. Almost a decade later, it seems that much has been done.

And thanks for the sarcastic list of demands you require, but it seems that when someone takes an attitude like this, it's clear that nothing will ever be enough and that clinging to fear and ignorance will always be preferable. I guess Bush did his job well...

Quote:
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has consistently and persistently condemned terrorism and the killing of innocent civilians. CAIR has also organized fatwas, petition drives, placed advertisements in national and local newspapers, ran public service announcements on television and radio stations, helped local Mosques across the United States in holding open houses, published Op-Eds in local and national newspapers, conducted inter-faith meetings and worked with scholars to disseminate the peaceful teachings of Islam.

In addition to specific campaigns, we have compiled a 68 page document showing all of the condemnations of terrorism after September 11th, 2001 and a similar document after the July 7th, 2006 bombings in London, UK.
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx


As an aside, I do find this thread interesting that when people are pushed enough, the PC-veils are dropped, and you can see that the roots of prejudice and racism are still alive and well even among seemingly tolerant and educated people. It reminds me of WMM's "us versus them" thread. I guess it's just an unfortunate reality.


WellMadeMale
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:17:16 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,279
Location: Cakeland, United States
I would have an easier time believing that the 19 patsies who were immediately fingered as being the perpetrators of 9/11...IMMEDIATELY..within *hours of the disaster, were actually practicing Muslims to begin with. Their reported 'actions' in the 48 hours before they allegedly pulled off the crisis of the century would indicate that they were not practicing Muslims at all.

But, the mouth-breathing fcktards (I do like that term, LadyX) who willing drink/gobble/chug/prolifigate the koolaid fantasies of Bush/Cheney administration and ultimately the Project For The New American Century, don't really stop to even ponder such evidence.

Hell, we found Atta's passport ID in the litter of the million tons of dust and refuse @ Ground Zero, but couldn't find any portion of any jet involved (a miracle if ever there was one).

The entire 'scheme' was diagnosed within mere days of this crime and then blasted out 24x7 by every major media outlet for the next several years. It is a fantasy that is now firmly perceived as factual legend.

E:\end rant

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Guest
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:08:06 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 530,465
Can I just put in a lil piece here, I'm not vey PC so excuse me if I offend,and I'm not fabulous at using big fancy words I find it confuses people and its easier to just talk about simple facts..
I'm from Ireland so this imput is completely impartial, but from what I understand, this could be a step to resolving a war, you are far more likely to have Muslim leaders willing to contribute towards the US's stopping of terrorism correct? And if the person who did crash into 9/11 was Muslim how does that mean that the 1.6 billion other Muslims are terrorists too? That would have been like everyone condeming every single American for the My Lai incident in Vietnam? For Muslims to worship near ground zero would not be a kick to the teeth for Americans, its not about them saying ha fuck you we can do what we want, its about them paying tribute to their God, would there be a problem with building a church there? or a temple? no there wouldnt so in order to make progress you have to be willing to comprimise.
Besides, I know I might get condemmed for this, but for some reason, theres too much speculation about conspiricy theories to go kicking up a fuss about places of worship being put where, its been proved in the past that American government will do anything to start a war e.g the Tonkin incident, so why put your faith into something thats let you down before, I know I dont trust the government in my own country..
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:23:55 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,138
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:


And thanks for the sarcastic list of demands you require, but it seems that when someone takes an attitude like this, it's clear that nothing will ever be enough and that clinging to fear and ignorance will always be preferable. I guess Bush did his job well...


I voted against both Bushes, every chance I had to do so, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Quote:
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has consistently and persistently condemned terrorism and the killing of innocent civilians. CAIR has also organized fatwas, petition drives, placed advertisements in national and local newspapers, ran public service announcements on television and radio stations, helped local Mosques across the United States in holding open houses, published Op-Eds in local and national newspapers, conducted inter-faith meetings and worked with scholars to disseminate the peaceful teachings of Islam.

In addition to specific campaigns, we have compiled a 68 page document showing all of the condemnations of terrorism after September 11th, 2001 and a similar document after the July 7th, 2006 bombings in London, UK.
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx


Really? How about this report from the Middle East Quarterly?

Quote:
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), headquartered in Washington, is perhaps the best-known and most controversial Muslim organization in North America. CAIR presents itself as an advocate for Muslims' civil rights and the spokesman for American Muslims. "We are similar to a Muslim NAACP," says its communications director, Ibrahim Hooper. Its official mission—"to enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding"—suggests nothing problematic.


Quote:
But there is another side to CAIR that has alarmed many people in positions to know. The Department of Homeland Security refuses to deal with it. Senator Charles Schumer (Democrat, New York) describes it as an organization "which we know has ties to terrorism." Senator Dick Durbin (Democrat, Illinois) observes that CAIR is "unusual in its extreme rhetoric and its associations with groups that are suspect." Steven Pomerantz, the FBI's former chief of counterterrorism, notes that "CAIR, its leaders, and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups." The family of John P. O'Neill, Sr., the former FBI counterterrorism chief who perished at the World Trade Center, named CAIR in a lawsuit as having "been part of the criminal conspiracy of radical Islamic terrorism" responsible for the September 11 atrocities. Counterterrorism expert Steven Emerson calls it "a radical fundamentalist front group for Hamas."



Dancing_Doll wrote:
As an aside, I do find this thread interesting that when people are pushed enough, the PC-veils are dropped, and you can see that the roots of prejudice and racism are still alive and well even among seemingly tolerant and educated people. It reminds me of WMM's "us versus them" thread. I guess it's just an unfortunate reality.


A good friend of mine is a practicing Muslim. He tells me that one of the basic tenets of Islam is the protection of innocents. Yet Muslim terrorists are more than willing to kidnap innocent people off the streets, and videotape themselves wearing black hoods and sawing off their heads with rusty Bowie knives. Muslim governments allow the use of the death penalty under Sharia. Women can be stoned to death for the crime of being rape victims. If they want to really convince me of how strict they are against terrorists, then I'd like to see executions of terrorists - sawing off their heads being optional of course. No, I'm not putting all people who practice Islam into the same group as terrorists - I just want those who abhor terrorism to act like it for a change. And that INCLUDES our own governments.

LadyX
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:39:41 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
MrNudiePants wrote:


Many people do blame organized Christianity for fomenting an atmosphere of intolerance where it seems like bombing abortion clinics and shooting gynecologists (not to mention burning Korans) are appropriate things to do. I don't, but many do. Just as I personally don't blame all Muslims for the acts of an insane group. It's not necessary to be a "mouth-breathing retard" to be insane enough that you believe your hand carries out the will of God (or Allah). As much planning goes into terror attacks, I have to believe that many terrorists are quite intelligent - but there's no law of nature saying you can't be intelligent and also insane.


I was actually referring to the people who assume all Muslims think like terrorists do. (all ________ are ________) That's where the stupidity is, not necessarily with the terrorists themselves. You're right, insane doesn't mean stupid.

And by making the Christianity comparison, I'm saying that in neither case is it reasonable to blame- or even associate- the religion with the crime. But I do love the hypocrisy of religious people who do just that with Islam, while never even suggesting a similar suggestion about terrorism crimes committed by Christians.

MrNudiePants wrote:

Dunno, Hon. I haven't seen any speeches made, or televised, but then again I don't watch much Arabic television. Maybe I don't watch the news enough, or maybe I just don't watch the right news programs. I just post my observations on a particular subject. if I were a Muslim, and people considered me to be an influential leader, I'd make it my personal agenda to see to it that there was always a story being run, somewhere, giving out the informaiton that I don't agree with terrorist attacks, or killing innocent people. Maybe I want pie-in-the-sky, but that's what I would want to see happening.


I could be way off base here, but I don't think I am. The way I see it, people get pissed off because they aren't seeing Clerics and Imams screaming on their TV sets when they turn on whatever news channel they prefer. Like DD said, those things were, and still are, being said, but it's out of sight, out of mind. I don't think the networks get ratings by showing things in shades of grey. And on the subject of 9/11, it's easier to just gently imply the the Muslim world opposes the US instead of digging into the finer points.

Also, I think you have a lot of people for whom just a denouncement of violence is not enough. They want Muslims on board with US policy, which for anyone who's paying attention, looks pretty goddamn anti-Muslim, just judging by who we're attacking and invading over the last 20 years or so. So what happens? You get a cleric on TV and he won't cop to that- he'll denounce violence, but he'll also talk about actions the US has taken over the years that has contributed to anger among extremist groups. He'll question what the US is doing, and why. These are reasonable observations and questions, but many in the US point to it and say "well, pardner, you're aginn us since you don't hate terrorism. You must hate freedom! (waves flag, sheds tear)"

There is no simplicity, but people desperately wish for it. That's how we get a retarded-man's John Wayne for two terms talking about smoking people out of caves and other similar bullshit. Not that the new sheriff in town is acting any differently, and both are ivy leaguers, the only difference is the new guy actually sounds like he is.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:56:08 PM

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LadyX wrote:
I could be way off base here, but I don't think I am. The way I see it, people get pissed off because they aren't seeing Clerics and Imams screaming on their TV sets when they turn on whatever news channel they prefer. Like DD said, those things were, and still are, being said, but it's out of sight, out of mind. I don't think the networks get ratings by showing things in shades of grey. And on the subject of 9/11, it's easier to just gently imply the the Muslim world opposes the US instead of digging into the finer points.

Also, I think you have a lot of people for whom just a denouncement of violence is not enough. They want Muslims on board with US policy, which for anyone who's paying attention, looks pretty goddamn anti-Muslim, just judging by who we're attacking and invading over the last 20 years or so. So what happens? You get a cleric on TV and he won't cop to that- he'll denounce violence, but he'll also talk about actions the US has taken over the years that has contributed to anger among extremist groups. He'll question what the US is doing, and why. These are reasonable observations and questions, but many in the US point to it and say "well, pardner, you're aginn us since you don't hate terrorism. You must hate freedom! (waves flag, sheds tear)"

There is no simplicity, but people desperate wish for it. That's how we get a retarded-man's John Wayne for two terms talking about smoking people out of caves and other similar bullshit. Not that the new sheriff in town is acting any differently, and both are ivy leaguers, the only difference is the new guy actually sounds like he is.


Well... yeah. I'm one of those that wants to see Imams pounding pulpits and calling for an end to the violence. I want to see dark-skinned, bearded college students marching in the streets and burning effigies of Osama bin Laden instead of the American flag. I think it's pretty hypocritical of Muslim clerics to proclaim that they practice the Religion of Peace while calling out for the death of pretty much anybody that pisses them off by drawing a cartoon of Mohammed. (Note to you two whackjobs - I'm not saying ALL Muslim clerics do this - but those who do are hypocrites.)

I'm a pretty pacifistic person at heart - I'd really like to see an end to all violence world wide. Since people, by and large, are buttheads, I don't think that's ever gonna happen. In my own perfect world, we'd all be free to practice whatever religion we wanted, and anybody that committed (or led, or caused) a terrorist act would be hunted down like the criminal he was.

LadyX
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 1:01:57 PM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
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I agree with almost all of that, Nudes- especially about how awesomely huge my grin would be if I saw them burning effigies of Osama, etc. But, it's a half-truth if we don't mention how it would feel to have US drones shoot into your village to try to kill an Al Qaeda operative, only to also take out your brother, or aunt and uncle. They don't just burn flags because the other cool kids are doing it- they are angry with us because we appear to be singling their faith out at worst, and being callous about their way of life for our strategic benefit at best. It's not so easy to be pro-US when you don't live here or under it's protection.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 1:09:05 PM

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LadyX wrote:
I agree with almost all of that, Nudes- especially about how awesomely huge my grin would be if I saw them burning effigies of Osama, etc. But, it's a half-truth if we don't mention how it would feel to have US drones shoot into your village to try to kill an Al Qaeda operative, only to also take out your brother, or aunt and uncle. They don't just burn flags because the other cool kids are doing it- they are angry with us because we appear to be singling their faith out at worst, and being callous about their way of life for our strategic benefit at best. It's not so easy to be pro-US when you don't live here or under it's protection.


Whole lotta truth there. Americans need to take back our government. Starting with the "Tea Baggers" I suppose. Although some of the Tea Baggers make me shudder with dread.

LadyX
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 1:13:03 PM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
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MrNudiePants wrote:

Whole lotta truth there. Americans need to take back our government. Starting with the "Tea Baggers" I suppose. Although some of the Tea Baggers make me shudder with dread.


Aww, the teabaggers seem awesome! hello1 Especially that O'donnell fool that did witchcraft, and thinks masturbation is as bad as adultery? And the guy from Kentucky that thinks the world is 4,000 years old and civil rights was a mistake? Yep, the tea party is the way to go! Please, please let them get elected- we could use more comedy in government.

Okay, looks like we need a Tea Party thread before I derail this one all by myself, LOL.

"Calling Mr. X.....Mr. Damon X....please report to the Think Tank." Or anybody else that wants to start it, I'd rather add my 2 cents after the first few posts.happy8
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 2:25:43 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,225
Location: West Coast

I also think a line should be drawn between "Muslim-Terrorists" and Muslims who are against American foreign policy. Just because someone is burning the flag in the street and cursing US policy or their involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not mean that they are supporting terrorism. There is an assumption that anybody who doesn't agree with the US or play by their rules needs to be subdued and taken down. I think there are many valid reasons why you would have serious contentious issues with the US if you lived over there. As Xuani said, having your family blown up as part of collateral damage isn't exactly going to make you want to wave the stars and stripes down the streets of Baghdad. Resorting to terrorist extremes, however, is something else entirely.

I thought this was interesting:

"According to FBI files, which can be accessed through fbi.gov, only 6 percent of terrorists are Muslim. The remaining percentage of terrorist attacks on U.S. territory includes: Latinos at 42 percent, extreme Left Wing groups at 24 percent, Jewish extremists at 7 percent, Communists at 5 percent, and other terrorist organizations at 16 percent."






Guest
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 5:21:22 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Well, to answer Nudiepants, it is the later part of part one. My point was that the days have not passed, yes blacks, minorities, underprivileged (no, I am not saying only blacks are in the under privileged minority spectrum, please notice the commas) have more help in certain social reforms, however, since you live in south florida, take a drive through coral gables and tell me how many african americans you see. How much infrastructure is being funded to parts of town that are non-white, non-politically accepted areas that don't have a solid money flow of constituents? Carol City, Belle Meade, Little Haiti, and please don't point to how metro rail runs through both privileged and underprivileged parts of town, because that thing goes nowhere. It is either cuban americans, or the old southern crackers that are the major demographic in the nice parts of town, and that is because they have the cash flow to get to the politicians pocket. Plain and simple, the issue you and ladyx were going back and forth on was the building code issue. In the end they did get clearance on the building of the facility and were still pinpointed by the ignorant masses who associate all muslims in one category and the reason for the outrage of building the center. Its not the genetic code, its the ever misinformed masses that can only meet violence with violence instead of trying to understand and be more well read and take a more learned course in how they approach issues. Cudos to most herein for being able to argue without such stupidity as we have all seen in the news. We should not accept the genetic code argument. That I feel, is an excuse to allow more stupidity. It merely takes a little reading. In the immortal words of McLovin, "read a fucking book once in a while." I say this to the majority of the US population and not to Mr. Nudiepants.

As for the second point, they got preferential treatment by being likened to the extremist muslims that according to WMM (I too am on the conspiracy theory idea, by the way) were allegedly the architects of the whole plot. How did we not catch a bunch of drunken party going middle easterners who were communicating by email? But I aside. The finger pointing is the preferential treatment they got for trying to build something that they probably already had in the works. As you noted, you have many dealings with building code issues, or zoning issues. It takes a long time for anything to get done, and in the meantime it is assumed that this group is just doing this to rub it in the face of americans. No matter what a person says, if they have an arabic name, wear a head dress, or are in any way associated with the muslim belief then they will be discounted due to ignorance. This flame of ignorance is usually fanned by news sources that know that fueling this flame will only sell more add time rather than doing any investigation showing the US population what the community center is really about. That fault lies on all news agency accounts. There may be some that have talked about the true impetus for the center or what will actually go on, but for the most part, they still call it a mosque, and it ain't. Misinformation only fans that code you refer to.

Instead of trying defuse it, they (politicians and news media) only seek to manipulate it for their own gain.

As for speaking out, it is easy to say so. Don't you think that muslims living in areas where they are surrounded by extremist mulsims don't fear repercussions? But they have and do, but will anyone listen? Maybe the learned few. To go back to the previous point made before responding to you, my thought is to build a center right on the property, where we start trying to disengage the hard wired fear of each other when confronted by something we don't understand. Why are we so steadfast in pointing fingers rather than trying to understand what the hell we are looking at?

MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 5:44:38 PM

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eiotis123 wrote:
It is either cuban americans, or the old southern crackers that are the major demographic in the nice parts of town, and that is because they have the cash flow to get to the politicians pocket.


You're blaming racism for the fact that the wealthy lead more privileged lives than the poor?



eiotis123 wrote:
The finger pointing is the preferential treatment they got for trying to build something that they probably already had in the works. As you noted, you have many dealings with building code issues, or zoning issues. It takes a long time for anything to get done, and in the meantime it is assumed that this group is just doing this to rub it in the face of americans.


Thank you for bringing this point out. It's one I meant to make a while ago, when I was discussing building permits, but I just plain ol' forgot. There's proof that they're NOT being singled out for "preferential" treatment (and in this case, I'm using that word as a negative, just as you did...) and that proof lies in the fact that the building plans have been (as I'm told here) approved for construction, there are no other issues to deal with, and construction is going to take place as it should. You can't stop people from being fearful buttheads. Only time and familiarization might help cure the fear that is the root of bigotry. Not "will help", mind you -- "might help".

MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:11:02 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:
"According to FBI files, which can be accessed through fbi.gov, only 6 percent of terrorists are Muslim. The remaining percentage of terrorist attacks on U.S. territory includes: Latinos at 42 percent, extreme Left Wing groups at 24 percent, Jewish extremists at 7 percent, Communists at 5 percent, and other terrorist organizations at 16 percent."


That's what I would expect, if you listed only those terrorist attacks that occurred on American soil, and included crimes like racially-motivated or hate crimes. However, if you look at this list of the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists, you'll find that out of the 29 "Most Wanted", only one has a Spanish (or Latino) surname. The rest are Arabic.

I would suppose that if you studied terrorist attacks occurring in other parts of the world, you would find a majority of the terrorists' countries of origin to be more localized to that region. This theory is backed by research performed by Princeton’s Alan Krueger, when he discovered:

Quote:
Additional support for these conclusions comes from research I conducted on the nationalities of foreign insurgents in Iraq. Specifically, I studied 311 combatants, representing 27 countries, who were captured in Iraq. Although the vast majority of insurgents are native Iraqis, motivated by domestic issues, foreigners are alleged to have been involved in several significant attacks. I looked at the char­acteristics of the countries insurgents came from, and, importantly, of the countries with no citizens captured in Iraq. It turned out that countries with a higher GDP per capita were actually more likely to have their citizens involved in the insurgency than were poorer countries.

Consistent with the work on international terrorist incidents, countries with fewer civil lib­erties and political rights were more likely to be the birthplaces of foreign insurgents. Distance also mattered, with most foreign insurgents com­ing from nearby nations. The model predicted that the largest number of insurgents—44 percent—would have emanated from Saudi Arabia, a nation not known for its protection of civil liberties but with a high GDP per capita.



Guest
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 7:23:44 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 530,465
Actually I am blaming racism for leading to the fact that those that are not politically inclined to be less privileged. Those that are more well educated and privileged will remain so, and there is no attempt to bring all humanity to equal footing. How do we better our society than to educate all children EQUALLY! If you believe that this is being done, then my argument is moot, since seeing this inequality and knowing that it is evident and existing is a key to moving on to a next level of giving all of our children the equal opportunity to learn in an equal, unbiased, unencumbered system that is not hot wired to allowing prejudice.

It is apparent that no matter the race of people, there is a continued manipulation of fear and misinformation that leads one to ostracize a people/race/religion based on that which one does not understand.

As for helping and what might and what will, what will help is not confusing the issue at hand. This is a community center, not a mosque. With individuals that ,from what I gather even herein, strive to a positive resolution with equal force from both polar insights as to how our feelings toward muslims as a whole, should not be polarized by the known atrocity of a sect.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 7:27:13 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,279
Location: Cakeland, United States
These fcktards scare me more than any bogey-man tossed on my evening news screen since 9/11. And then, only barely. I can ignore them, too.







Incidentally, THEY...meaning the Democrats and the Republicans in control since 2000, have lied to the American people and to the rest of the world about 90% of everything that has come out of their mouths. Especially since 9/11 and we're supposed to believe their official government conspiracy theory of how that day went down?

Very convenient how THEY had all the answers 72 hours later, and 96 hours later THEY told us exactly how the villains in their theory perpetrated it all. Also very convenient that THEY waited until just after the November 2004 _residential Selections occurred before releasing the Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory, errr...report.

I quit drinking that kewl aid after the November 2000 _residential Selection.


If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Guest
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 7:36:39 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 530,465
LOL WMM, I do believe however that the Felliniesque interpretation of the argument will only be lost among the masses.
spacemonkey
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:18:11 PM

Rank: Rookie Scribe

Joined: 7/25/2010
Posts: 3
Location: IE, United States
Guest
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:32:51 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 530,465
And we're back to square one.
LadyX
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:37:40 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
spacemonkey wrote:
not all muslims are terrorists but the terrorist who attacked the towers on 9/11 were acting for their faith and for this reason i think it is extremely disrespectful to have a mosque so close to ground zero. i understand it is not illegal but i think out of respect for the dead that the people who are building the mosque should move it farther away from the site of the fallen towers.


I'll bite. How is it disrespectful, since it's a) not a mosque, and b) an outreach center for the community, not just followers of Islam? Can we discuss it without you repeating the talking points for us? Let's break it down.
Guest
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:47:48 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 530,465
"I'll bite. How is it disrespectful, since it's a) not a mosque, and b) an outreach center for the community, not just followers of Islam? Can we discuss it without you repeating the talking points for us? Let's break it down."

I never pictured you as a masochist.
LadyX
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 11:49:16 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
eiotis123 wrote:

I never pictured you as a masochist.


That's one way to put it. Ah, the sacrifices made as a mediator.glasses8
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:47:27 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,279
Location: Cakeland, United States
LadyX wrote:
eiotis123 wrote:

I never pictured you as a masochist.


That's one way to put it. Ah, the sacrifices made as a mediator.glasses8


The Mayans were keen on those. geek

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 6:01:47 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,138
Location: United States
WellMadeMale wrote:
LadyX wrote:
eiotis123 wrote:

I never pictured you as a masochist.


That's one way to put it. Ah, the sacrifices made as a mediator.glasses8


The Mayans were keen on those. geek


Mediators? I never knew that...

WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 10:04:45 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,279
Location: Cakeland, United States
MrNudiePants wrote:
WellMadeMale wrote:
LadyX wrote:
eiotis123 wrote:

I never pictured you as a masochist.


That's one way to put it. Ah, the sacrifices made as a mediator.glasses8


The Mayans were keen on those. geek


Mediators? I never knew that...


Sure, Nudes...didn't you notice the fellow refereeing the God offerings atop their Teotihuacan pyramid towards the middle of Apocalypto? Someone had to rip the hearts out and make sure the blade of the rod found the proper area in the downswing. happy8

That's the kind of temple we don't see enough of anymore.

No Gore in this video. His best work since Braveheart.


If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:26:44 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
My new favorite song and video, I'm sure it will hit the charts soon. I'm making this my new ringtone! LMAO



So inspirational (wipes tears)- give me a minute to compose myself.

Remember folks, freedom isn't free, it costs $1.05.
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