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LadyX
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:00:16 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Whether you're a sports fan or not: do you think there's any significance to national teams? I'm talking about Olympic teams and athletes, soccer teams, hockey teams, etc.

Full disclosure: I've never really "gotten" the whole Olympic/national team concept. I mean, I understand why they exist, and why the competitions are popular, but why would I root for people simply because they happen to have been born in the same country as me? What if Michael Phelps is actually an asshole, and his fiercest competitor is among the sweetest people on earth? Am I still supposed to root against the better person simply because he lives in the Czech Republic?

A week or two ago, the US and Mexican soccer teams squared off against each other in California. According to reports, roughly 80,000 of the 95,000 in attendance were cheering for Mexico, and booing loudly at the American team. I think it's safe to say that very few of that 80,000 actually drove up from Mexico for the game, which means that tens of thousands of American residents were booing the team of their chosen home.

Is this:

a) meaningless, because it's just sports, and nothing about sports is of any consequence?

b) disrespectful to boo your own country's team, because you chose to live here, after all, and like it or not, that team is a representation of the country itself?

or

c) to take it a step further, indicative of a larger issue, where cultural baggage is being expressed through a rooting interest in Mexico's (or any other country's) team?

If (c), then why such resentment in the first place, that tens of thousands take it out on a soccer team in the form of boos and expletives?

As for where I stand on it: I'm undecided, but wondered what you all thought about it.

Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:33:27 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,905
Location: California
People rooting for Mexico instead of the US is no different than a New Yorker who now lives in Boston cheering for the Yankees. He chooses to live in Boston but he's a Yankee fan. Doesn't mean he hates Boston the city. It just means he probably grew up watching baseball and the Yankees are his team.

Many Mexicans that live here weren't born here and many are 1st generation sons and daughters. You're telling me that if you moved to England and you grew up rooting for the US soccer team you are automatically gonna root for England when the US and England play just because you live there now? You might have children and those children might watch the games with you and root for the US too. Doesn't mean they hate England or really mean anything outside of just sports fanaticism.



Rembacher
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:40:56 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
For the most part, I think sports are just sports, but I do believe there are occasions where sports become a symbol for something more. When Canada hosted the Olympics in 2010, we made a concentrated effort to "Own the Podium" because we wanted to show off Canada to the world. In that case, the Olympics became a showcase for Canadian achievement, which people felt wouldn't be near as impressive if we didn't factor in to the medal race. The people who argued for the increased funding of elite athletes to make this happen, argued that the training facilities built, and the added interest generated, would benefit the youth of the country, getting more of them out doing physical activity, regardless of whether they ever became elite athletes. And, in our society at least, wrapping a project up in national pride makes people more likely to ok the spending, than if we just say "the kids of Vancouver (Hamilton, Calgary, Edmonton, etc) need a new athletic/recreational facility."

In other instances, the sporting event takes on a more political significance. In the case of this soccer game, the Mexican-Americans could have seen this as a chance to feel superior, instead of the second-class citizens that many people (including some in this forum) view them to be. Throughout the years, there have been many examples of this. Ireland could never beat England with military force; but on the soccer pitch, it might be possible, just for 90 minutes, to "put the English in their place." And that feeling will carry over as bragging rights, and a small comfort to the downtrodden, until the next match between the two sides.

The most famous Canadian example of this is the 1972 summit series between Canada and the USSR. A battle of cold war enemies, decided on an ice rink, rather than the battlefield. The hatred was so intense, and the stakes so high, that it did become a battle field of sorts. When Canada lost the 4th game in Canada, leaving them with 1 win, 1 tie, and 2 losses on the home portion of the 8 game series, they were booed off the ice by the Vancouver fans. Phil Esposito, one of the stars of the team, had this to say in response to it

Quote:
"To the people across Canada, we tried, we gave it our best, and to the people that boo us, geez, I'm really, all of us guys are really disheartened and we're disillusioned, and we're disappointed at some of the people. We cannot believe the bad press we've got, the booing we've gotten in our own buildings. If the Russians boo their players, the fans... Russians boo their players... Some of the Canadian fans—I'm not saying all of them, some of them booed us, then I'll come back and I'll apologize to each one of the Canadians, but I don't think they will. I'm really, really... I'm really disappointed. I am completely disappointed. I cannot believe it. Some of our guys are really, really down in the dumps, we know, we're trying like hell. I mean, we're doing the best we can, and they got a good team, and let's face facts. But it doesn't mean that we're not giving it our 150%, because we certainly are.

I mean, the more - everyone of us guys, 35 guys that came out and played for Team Canada. We did it because we love our country, and not for any other reason, no other reason. They can throw the money, uh, for the pension fund out the window. They can throw anything they want out the window. We came because we love Canada. And even though we play in the United States, and we earn money in the United States, Canada is still our home, and that's the only reason we come. And I don't think it's fair that we should be booed."


Canada lost again in game 5, putting them in danger of losing the series, and that's when things got dirty. With all the cold war era pressure on the team to beat the Communists, it became win at all costs. In game six, knowing that one more win for the Soviets would clinch the series for them, Canada resorted to the dirtiest of tricks:

Quote:
This game also saw the most controversial play of the entire series. In the second period, Bobby Clarke deliberately slashed Valeri Kharlamov's ankle, fracturing it. Years later, John Ferguson, the assistant coach of Team Canada, was quoted as saying "I called Clarke over to the bench, looked over at Kharlamov and said, 'I think he needs a tap on the ankle.'I didn't think twice about it. It was Us versus Them. And Kharlamov was killing us. I mean, somebody had to do it."[3] Kharlamov was the Soviets' best forward, and although he played the rest of the game, he missed Game Seven and was largely ineffectual in Game Eight.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Series

In that case, to those players, it was more than just a sporting event.

I wasn't alive in 1972, so I can't say how I would have dealt with that. I know I do get an added thrill any time that Canada beats the US in any sport. But when it comes to any other country, aside from my normal cheering for one side, and hoping for victory, I don't place any added importance on the outcome.
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:46:52 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,372
Location: Alabama, United States
LadyX wrote:
Whether you're a sports fan or not: do you think there's any significance to national teams? I'm talking about Olympic teams and athletes, soccer teams, hockey teams, etc.

Full disclosure: I've never really "gotten" the whole Olympic/national team concept. I mean, I understand why they exist, and why the competitions are popular, but why would I root for people simply because they happen to have been born in the same country as me? What if Michael Phelps is actually an asshole, and his fiercest competitor is among the sweetest people on earth? Am I still supposed to root against the better person simply because he lives in the Czech Republic?

A week or two ago, the US and Mexican soccer teams squared off against each other in California. According to reports, roughly 80,000 of the 95,000 in attendance were cheering for Mexico, and booing loudly at the American team. I think it's safe to say that very few of that 80,000 actually drove up from Mexico for the game, which means that tens of thousands of American residents were booing the team of their chosen home.

Is this:

a) meaningless, because it's just sports, and nothing about sports is of any consequence?

b) disrespectful to boo your own country's team, because you chose to live here, after all, and like it or not, that team is a representation of the country itself?

or

c) to take it a step further, indicative of a larger issue, where cultural baggage is being expressed through a rooting interest in Mexico's (or any other country's) team?

If (c), then why such resentment in the first place, that tens of thousands take it out on a soccer team in the form of boos and expletives?

As for where I stand on it: I'm undecided, but wondered what you all thought about it.



I think cheering for your National team is normal and acceptable. It's like people in Dallas pulling for the Cowboys. Or in Atlanta pulling for the Braves. It's being part of a community. In international games, your country is your community. As for the soccer game, I doubt all of those cheering for Mexico were/are American citizens. Not indictment of them, but Mexico is still and will always be "home" for them. Just like if I moved to Italy, I wouldn't cheer for the Italian team over the American team.

Having said all that, for most people it's all in good fun. Better to cheer on an insignicant game, in the long run, than to hate and boo over real life shit. Sports can bring people together. Even when they're playing aginat one another. Sure there are cases of people and teams taking things too far. But usually it's all in good fun.






When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:56:44 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,713
In Scotland, the national football (soccer) team have a habit of not getting very far in European or World events, still they have a very loyal following (called the Tartan Army) and everyone gets all patriotic at the World cup etc....

It's a shame because we invariably do not get very far, every single time, and, every single time, we all hope and pray that they will, only to come crashing down when they get eliminated, yet again...

Although England is part of the UK, many Scots (though not all) would rather support which ever team is playing them, rather than cheer for England...



LOL, that brought a tear to my eye - it's so ingrained into us as a nation... Fiercely patriotic!!



latinfoxy
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:02:29 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 816
Location: Here
I get what you mean with why root for a guy that might be worst person than the other but for me its about been proud of where you come from. I feel inmensily proud when i see a Venezuelan team doing great or not even just in sports everytime i see a Scientist or doctor or even singer from Venezuela that has gotten a lot of recognition i feel proud and root for them to do great because they come from Venezuela.

Sports also can bring people united, for example Venezuela right now its a very divided country, you are either with or against Chavez and every part hates the other with all their hearts, this past month we have been playing football at La Copa America, Venezuela has never done very good in football but this time they were playing amazing and every single one of the people in this country were rooting for them to win, you would see big screens in every single plaza where people would come together and watch all the games and noone cared if you were with or against Chavez the only thing people cared about was suporting La Vinotinto and that they did great.

About the particular game you were referring to, i think location played a big part of the situation, take that same game to any other state were the majority of people werent Mexicans and you would have gotten a very diferent result.
ArtMan
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:26:41 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/29/2011
Posts: 640
Location: South Florida, United States
If all those immigrants can't cheer and pull for the USA they don't deserve to be Americans. That tacky low class behavior will well be remembered by REAL Americans.

You are invited to read Passionate Danger, Part II, a story collaboration by Kim and ArtMan.
http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/passionate-danger-part-ii.aspx

clum
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 2:38:48 PM

Rank: Clumeleon

Joined: 5/13/2011
Posts: 4,467
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Mazza pretty much said exactly what I was going to say. In Scotland (and most other countries as well, I'm sure) we have an in-built patriotism and a fiery passion for our own land. We want to see Scottish teams and athletes do well because it makes it feel as though we, as a country, have triumphed (and usually the athletes feel that way way, too). We aren't good at many things but the whole nation is ready and willing to throw their whole support behind anyone willing to have a punt (see Andy Murray), hoping for a glimpse of glory.

I guess it stems from one's emotional attachment to one's home land. If you don't have that, you're less likely to cheer on a national team. When we see someone win, we like to have that feeling of, "That's one of ours!" I suppose it is a little irrational.

As human beings, we are naturally competitive. If there was no national representation at things like the Olympics, there would be a lot less interest. In general, we aren't very interested in the individual runners (for example), but more the country they're running for. Sport becomes part of our national identity: "Oh, Scotland. They're rubbish at football but they're pretty good at elephant polo." (True fact).

National identity is a big issue in Scotland just now because of the current political situation. Also, there's currently a big row about the possibility of a Great Britain football (soccer) team entering at the Olympics next year, despite there being four separate national teams. In all likelihood, a close replica of the England national team will enter and, as usual, the rest of Britain won't cheer them on.

I think it's healthy to support your countrymen above others, unless there's a personal attachment. If I was married to a Czech swimmer and she was racing a Scot I'd never met, I'd want my wife to win, obviously. Nationality gives us some sort of connection to these otherwise strangers and that's why we want to see them succeed.

Sorry my response was a bit all over the place. My mind isn't functioning correctly today.

Every day is a school day.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 2:42:45 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Great answers!
AngelHeart01
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 3:23:24 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/23/2010
Posts: 3,139
Location: ♥ Southern Style ♥, United States
Magical_felix wrote:
People rooting for Mexico instead of the US is no different than a New Yorker who now lives in Boston cheering for the Yankees. He chooses to live in Boston but he's a Yankee fan. Doesn't mean he hates Boston the city. It just means he probably grew up watching baseball and the Yankees are his team.

Many Mexicans that live here weren't born here and many are 1st generation sons and daughters. You're telling me that if you moved to England and you grew up rooting for the US soccer team you are automatically gonna root for England when the US and England play just because you live there now? You might have children and those children might watch the games with you and root for the US too. Doesn't mean they hate England or really mean anything outside of just sports fanaticism.


Didn't I have this discussion with you a few weeks back? I like your answer, btw.
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 3:48:44 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,905
Location: California
AngelHeart01 wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
People rooting for Mexico instead of the US is no different than a New Yorker who now lives in Boston cheering for the Yankees. He chooses to live in Boston but he's a Yankee fan. Doesn't mean he hates Boston the city. It just means he probably grew up watching baseball and the Yankees are his team.

Many Mexicans that live here weren't born here and many are 1st generation sons and daughters. You're telling me that if you moved to England and you grew up rooting for the US soccer team you are automatically gonna root for England when the US and England play just because you live there now? You might have children and those children might watch the games with you and root for the US too. Doesn't mean they hate England or really mean anything outside of just sports fanaticism.


Didn't I have this discussion with you a few weeks back? I like your answer, btw.


Yes we did about the very game that was brought up here, and thank you angelheart.



MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 4:56:19 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,141
Location: United States
I think all people have a strong desire to have a national identity, to belong to a group that's greater than the individual. The Olympic games gives the citizens of each participating country a way to have that feeling. The Olympics have been used for political purposes over and over.

In 1936, when the games were held in Berlin, Hitler's government tried to use the games as a means to demonstrate the superiority of the Aryan race. During the opening parade, the American team made worldwide headlines by refusing to lower the American flag as they passed under the Nazi banners.



American athlete Jesse Owens shattered that idea by winning four gold medals in track and field events.



Quote:
But I felt I had to make a showing right then. I measured off my steps from the takeoff board and got ready. Suddenly an American newspaperman came up to me. “Is it true, Jesse?” he said.

“Is what true?” I answered.

“That Hitler walked out on you? That he wouldn’t watch you jump?”

I looked over at where the German ruler had been sitting. No one was in his box. A minute ago he had been there. I could add two and two. Besides, he’d already snubbed me once by refusing the Olympic Committee’s request to have me sit in that box.

This was too much. I was mad, hate-mad, and it made me feel wild. I was going to show him. He’d hear about this jump, even if he wouldn’t see it!

From "Open Letter To A Young Negro" by Jesse Owens


In 1972, Palestinian terrorists invaded the Israeli apartments, killing a coach and athlete, and taking nine more team members hostage. In the end, eleven terrorists, nine hostages, one policeman and one pilot were killed.



The Olympics have been used to promote positive change as well. On the morning of October 16, 1968, U.S. athlete Tommie Smith won the 200 meter race in a world-record time of 19.83 seconds, with Australia's Peter Norman second with a time of 20.06 seconds, and the U.S.'s John Carlos in third place with a time of 20.10 seconds. After the race was completed, the three went to collect their medals at the podium. The two U.S. athletes received their medals shoeless, but wearing black socks, to represent black poverty. Smith wore a black scarf around his neck to represent black pride, Carlos had his tracksuit top unzipped to show solidarity with all blue collar workers in the U.S. and wore a necklace of beads which he described "were for those individuals that were lynched, or killed and that no-one said a prayer for, that were hung and tarred. It was for those thrown off the side of the boats in the middle passage." All three athletes wore Olympic Project for Human Rights (OPHR) badges after Norman, a critic of Australia's White Australia Policy, expressed empathy with their ideals. Sociologist Harry Edwards, the founder of the OPHR, had urged black athletes to boycott the games; reportedly, the actions of Smith and Carlos on October 16, 1968[2] were inspired by Edwards' arguments.

Both U.S. athletes intended on bringing black gloves to the event, but Carlos forgot his, leaving them in the Olympic Village. It was the Australian, Peter Norman, who suggested Carlos wear Smith's left-handed glove, this being the reason behind him raising his left hand, as opposed to his right, differing from the traditional Black Power salute. When "The Star-Spangled Banner" played, Smith and Carlos delivered the salute with heads bowed, a gesture which became front page news around the world. As they left the podium they were booed by the crowd. Smith later said "If I win, I am American, not a black American. But if I did something bad, then they would say I am a Negro. We are black and we are proud of being black. Black America will understand what we did tonight."

Tommie Smith stated in his autobiography, "Silent Gesture", that the salute was not a Black Power salute, but in fact a human rights salute.



For good, for ill, no matter what your country of residence or nationality, no matter what your religion or lack thereof... the Olympic Games have played a part in forming the world around you.





cyrwr3gmail
Posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:00:34 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 5/20/2011
Posts: 38
Location: NYC, United States
I was born raised in NYC and I have been rooting against the Yankees the past 18 yrs. What one likes in a sports affair, I personally disregard. As a sports spectator/fan, all you can ask for is a good and competitive (and clean) game, and not some silly game where one side obliterates the other. Come on now.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2011 8:21:49 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,713
I think soccer (football fans) fans can explain it best. You have your club, that team you have rooted for since your pops did. That one player or host of players that might come from somewhere you don't originate from that is/are the reason for that teams success then plays elsewhere due to birth.

Who do I root for? First, your nation. Then, if your fav player plays elsewhere, then him and his team. And as noted above, if all else fails, you root for a great game that won't suck and siphon out the splendor of the game you love.

It's trivial, and fun.
MissyLuvsYa
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:35:20 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 543
Location: somewhere on the coast, United States
I am an American and cheer for the USA national teams. Anyone that moves here and their heart is not with us, maybe they should consider moving to where they are happiest and cheer for the team there all they want. But to come here to become an American and cheer against us, I don't like that and I have no respect for someone who does that! That is a shallow bitter person!
Rembacher
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 4:38:39 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
MissyLuvsYa wrote:
Anyone that moves here and their heart is not with us, maybe they should consider moving to where they are happiest and cheer for the team there all they want. But to come here to become an American and cheer against us, I don't like that and I have no respect for someone who does that! That is a shallow bitter person!


I think that is making assumptions about why the person came to the US. Many people move to America for the economic opportunity that is not available in their own country. All things being equal, they would still rather be back home. But they aren't, so people have to move to where the jobs are, to provide for their families. Many even get citizenship, because that makes day to day life easier. But their heart still lies with their homeland. The next generation tends to have a split allegiance, and as you go further down the line, the line shifts more toward the new country. To the new immigrant, it would be just as disrespectful for them to cheer against their beloved home country.
Ruthie
Posted: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:57:19 PM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,353
Location: United States
I think that if I were living in another country I'd still want the U.S team to win if they were playing there. The booing part is what bothers me. If I go to a city where the Braves are playing, I'm still for the Braves, but I don't boo the home team. That's disrespectful. I can't see myself cheering against the U.S. though no matter where I am at the moment, or how long I've been there.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 1:54:07 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,713
I was always taught that booing was poor sportsmanship or disrespectful. Something to do with manners. All you have to do is look around and you can see no one uses or has manners anymore.

When I've been in other countries and The Americas Cup is on, I always root for the US but not enough to show disrespect to the country I'm in. Same with the Olympics.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 3:23:09 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
chefkathleen wrote:
I was always taught that booing was poor sportsmanship or disrespectful. Something to do with manners. All you have to do is look around and you can see no one uses or has manners anymore.

When I've been in other countries and The Americas Cup is on, I always root for the US but not enough to show disrespect to the country I'm in. Same with the Olympics.


I think this is basically where I come down on it. I wouldn't begrudge anybody's wish to root for whatever team or country they chose, for whatever reason, regardless of where they live or hold citizenship. I think I'd draw the line with booing loudly and chanting insulting/vulgar phrases at some other country's team, though. I know booing is part of sports, and I've done it too, but at a national level it just seems a little excessive, wierd, and tinged with some deeper resentment that's probably not appropriate for a sports competition.

The thousands who booed in that soccer match, and in any other given competition, might feel like it's no different than being a Yankees fan and booing the Red Sox, and fair enough. Still, something about this case seems slightly different to me than just normal team sports rivalry.

latinfoxy
Posted: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:12:16 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 816
Location: Here
ArtMan wrote:
If all those immigrants can't cheer and pull for the USA they don't deserve to be Americans. That tacky low class behavior will well be remembered by REAL Americans.


MissyLuvsYa wrote:
I am an American and cheer for the USA national teams. Anyone that moves here and their heart is not with us, maybe they should consider moving to where they are happiest and cheer for the team there all they want. But to come here to become an American and cheer against us, I don't like that and I have no respect for someone who does that! That is a shallow bitter person!


Buz
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 1:55:09 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,778
Location: Atlanta, United States
Hi LatinFoxy,
I can tell you that I completely agree with MissyLuvsya and ArtMan on what they said. I can tell you the truth. A few thousand foreigners or immigrants coming to a soccer game hosted by the USA and booing the USA National Team IS NOT CELEBRATING DIVERSITY! What it is really doing is PROMOTING HATRED & BIGOTRY!!!!

Can you imagine how the people of Mexico would feel if thousands of Americans traveled to Mexico and booed their national team in one of their own stadiums? That would be UNACCEPTABLE. It would be tacky and classless! it would make the people there very angry and spread hatred!

Furthermore, I have seen the Mexican team play the USA team on TV before and the team players for both teams always exhibited high class dignified behavior and quality sportsmanship that both country's can be proud of.

Hopefully that one instance is just another example of out of control drunken soccer fans just as we've seen worldwide several times.

Remember if you want to promote peace harmony then treat people that way. When you disrespect people you will get disrespect back!

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/celebrate_2Ddiversity.thumbnail.gif

Rembacher
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:07:41 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
Buz wrote:
Hi LatinFoxy,
I can tell you that I completely agree with MissyLuvsya and ArtMan on what they said. I can tell you the truth. A few thousand foreigners or immigrants coming to a soccer game hosted by the USA and booing the USA National Team IS NOT CELEBRATING DIVERSITY! What it is really doing is PROMOTING HATRED & BIGOTRY!!!!

Can you imagine how the people of Mexico would feel if thousands of Americans traveled to Mexico and booed their national team in one of their own stadiums? That would be UNACCEPTABLE. It would be tacky and classless! it would make the people there very angry and spread hatred!

Furthermore, I have seen the Mexican team play the USA team on TV before and the team players for both teams always exhibited high class dignified behavior and quality sportsmanship that both country's can be proud of.

Hopefully that one instance is just another example of out of control drunken soccer fans just as we've seen worldwide several times.

Remember if you want to promote peace harmony then treat people that way. When you disrespect people you will get disrespect back!

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/celebrate_2Ddiversity.thumbnail.gif


I don't believe there was any mention of booing in either Ms. Foxy's response, or the two people's comments she replied to. The idea that you don't deserve to be American if you cheer for another country in a sporting event was what she was responding to. That sentiment reeks of discrimination, with strong hints of racism or at the very least, a self-centered view of the world placing lower importance on any other culture.
MexicanGoddess
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:09:19 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/16/2010
Posts: 3,209
Location: My own little world , Mexico
Jebru wrote:
I think that is making assumptions about why the person came to the US. Many people move to America for the economic opportunity that is not available in their own country. All things being equal, they would still rather be back home. But they aren't, so people have to move to where the jobs are, to provide for their families. Many even get citizenship, because that makes day to day life easier. But their heart still lies with their homeland. The next generation tends to have a split allegiance, and as you go further down the line, the line shifts more toward the new country. To the new immigrant, it would be just as disrespectful for them to cheer against their beloved home country.



I totally agree with Juberu. Mexican is who I am, my heritage means the world to me. I was born in the U.S. but people see me as being Mexican or Latina not American. I'm all about my people, they have accepted me for who I am. My so called American people see me as a illegal immigrant, wet back, beaner, uneducated, baby maker, gang member, ect. just to name some of the things I've been called by so called American people. So of course I'm going to feel more like a Mexican then American.


But going on about the game, I agree with Magical Felix, lafayettemister, and Eviotis said. I went to the 2007 gold cup game where the U.S. beat Mexico... and walking back to my car from the stadium all you heard was the U.S. soccer fans telling us to go back to Mexico and booing us and so on... It's just a game. I've been to a lot of soccer games in Mexico and its the same thing there... people booing and calling each other names, throwing things, getting into fights and so on. It's just team sports rivalry.
latinfoxy
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:17:47 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 816
Location: Here
ArtMan wrote:
If all those immigrants can't cheer and pull for the USA they don't deserve to be Americans. That tacky low class behavior will well be remembered by REAL Americans.


MissyLuvsYa wrote:
I am an American and cheer for the USA national teams. Anyone that moves here and their heart is not with us, maybe they should consider moving to where they are happiest and cheer for the team there all they want. But to come here to become an American and cheer against us, I don't like that and I have no respect for someone who does that! That is a shallow bitter person!


latinfoxy wrote:
I get what you mean with why root for a guy that might be worst person than the other but for me its about been proud of where you come from. I feel inmensily proud when i see a Venezuelan team doing great or not even just in sports everytime i see a Scientist or doctor or even singer from Venezuela that has gotten a lot of recognition i feel proud and root for them to do great because they come from Venezuela.

Sports also can bring people united, for example Venezuela right now its a very divided country, you are either with or against Chavez and every part hates the other with all their hearts, this past month we have been playing football at La Copa America, Venezuela has never done very good in football but this time they were playing amazing and every single one of the people in this country were rooting for them to win, you would see big screens in every single plaza where people would come together and watch all the games and noone cared if you were with or against Chavez the only thing people cared about was suporting La Vinotinto and that they did great.

About the particular game you were referring to, i think location played a big part of the situation, take that same game to any other state were the majority of people werent Mexicans and you would have gotten a very diferent result.


Buz i think you completely misinterpreted what i was saying as Jebru said before im not talking about what the ppl did on that game im talking about the words that Artman and MissLuvYa chose to state how they feel about those people.

As you can see in my previous post i said its about cheering for what you feel is yours that belongs to you that makes your heart beat faster, not about cheering against the other team, i talked about how sports can bring people together, i never said i thought the Mexican should had booed against Americans, i would have post exactly the same pic if it was the opposite situation and it was a game in Mexico and a Mexican were saying that Americans should go back to their country if they dont want to cheer for Mexico.

I believe in free will and if i want to cheer for whatever team i want to cheer thats my decision and no one elses, isnt America all about freedom? then Americans should be more open to freedom and let everyone cheer for the team they want to cheer.

BTW i think you should watch more games Mexico Vs USA because they hate each other and fight all the time in and out the game.
ArtMan
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 8:31:32 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/29/2011
Posts: 640
Location: South Florida, United States
I love diversity. And I think immigrants often make the very best Americans because they often can truly appreciate freedom, liberty and opportunity better than people who have known nothing else.

But anyone, anywhere, who visits someone else's facility and booes them is low class and tacky. It does not matter where they are from. Too bad their mama didn't teach them some manners. I have never booed another team anywhere at anytime. I consider it rude, classless, tacky and trashy. In that particular case it is something that will be embedded in people's memory and not forgotten.

To MexicanGoddess, that experienced some Americans yelling and telling Mexicans 'to go home' and yelling other scummy things at them then that was trashy, tacky and low class too, and will leave a terrible permanent memory with her, too. I really hate that happened.

When I heard those people booed the US National Team, yes, that pissed me off. Anyone doing that is pathetic. Anyone treating Mexican visitors like that is pathetic. That kind of trashy stuff should not be tolerated.

I think the REAL Americans are the decent people who always there when someone around the world needs help. In every case of tragic events like when the tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanoes and earthquakes strike around the world, no other people give more aid, more money or more volunteer time than Americans. That is a proven fact. Usually Americans give more than the rest of the world put together. I would much rather people all over the world remember that, the MILLIONS of Americans that have done that and consistently do that, rather than some group of tacky trashy fans yelling at fans from another nation's team.

Remember that when you travel you are an ambassador to your country. Those soccer fans that acted bad at those events left a permanent impression of where they are from.

I would NEVER go to Mexico and disrespect them. Or here for that matter. For the individuals acting trashy, may they reap what they sew!

For someone who has moved here to make their home here and boo and cheer against us, I have NO respect for that person. If they cheer for their previous nation's team so be it, as long as it is done as a good sport and respect is used. But if you move here to the USA to live and want people to accept you, act like it, don't insult us. How would you like it if the shoe were on the other foot?

You are invited to read Passionate Danger, Part II, a story collaboration by Kim and ArtMan.
http://www.lushstories.com/stories/straight-sex/passionate-danger-part-ii.aspx

latinfoxy
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:16:34 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/5/2011
Posts: 816
Location: Here


Should Canada be pissed at USA and say true CANADIANS will remember about this?


ArtMan wrote:
If all those immigrants can't cheer and pull for the USA they don't deserve to be Americans. That tacky low class behavior will well be remembered by REAL Americans.


Again im not defending the booing against another team im defending the cheering for the team they want to cheer for no matter where the game is taking place of. Or for example in the next World Cup that is going to be in Brazil should everyone cheer for Brazil on those games because its taking place there? or should they cheer for the country they feel more passion for?

How can you ask someone that feel the same passion for the US than for their home country, when obviously in America are never gonna be consider REAL Americans and almost always are looked like second class citizens. and even if this wasnt true like many others have said before you always wants to see winning your country or the country your parents have been rooting for since you were little.

Rembacher
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:29:09 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
ArtMan wrote:
I love diversity. And I think immigrants often make the very best Americans because they often can truly appreciate freedom, liberty and opportunity better than people who have known nothing else.

But anyone, anywhere, who visits someone else's facility and booes them is low class and tacky. It does not matter where they are from. Too bad their mama didn't teach them some manners. I have never booed another team anywhere at anytime. I consider it rude, classless, tacky and trashy. In that particular case it is something that will be embedded in people's memory and not forgotten.


I find it interesting how after being confronted you change it from cheering against the US being reprehensible, to booing the US being reprehensible. These are two entirely different situations. Maybe you were just careless with your original wording. Though it seems highly unlikely that you would mistake cheering for an opponent for booing the home team. More likely that you realize you can't defend your original statement.

ArtMan wrote:

I think the REAL Americans are the decent people who always there when someone around the world needs help. In every case of tragic events like when the tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanoes and earthquakes strike around the world, no other people give more aid, more money or more volunteer time than Americans. That is a proven fact. Usually Americans give more than the rest of the world put together. I would much rather people all over the world remember that, the MILLIONS of Americans that have done that and consistently do that, rather than some group of tacky trashy fans yelling at fans from another nation's team.



This question might be a bit of a thread jack, but I've seen a few different members allude to this "proven fact" and I wonder how we are defining more money for foreign aid. The most recent data I have found http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html shows that when it comes to per capita spending, Norway spends almost 8 times what the US does on foreign aid. While I can't find specific numbers, there is also a lot of suggestion that when you look at percentage of GNP spending, the US does not lead. The only way that the US leads is in total spending, which would be kind of like Bill Gates bragging about donating a few hundred thousand dollars to a cause.
Rembacher
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:41:19 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,106
latinfoxy wrote:


Should Canada be pissed at USA and say true CANADIANS will remember about this?


I'm sure no one will be surprised that I can add to this. The one that will always come to mind, is the 1992 World Series, where the Atlanta Braves flew the Canadian flag upside down for the national anthems. I don't think Canada will ever forget that. Especially since it was the first time that a Canadian team had made it to the world series.

From time to time NHL fans will boo the US and Canadian national anthems. It's seen as disrespectful and usually the commentators and even team official will scold their own fans for their behaviour, while taking steps to avoid it in the future. There is one exception to this rule. Anything Philadelphia fans boo doesn't get taken seriously. After all, those are the fans who once booed Santa Claus.

Magical_felix
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:08:30 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,905
Location: California
ArtMan wrote:


But anyone, anywhere, who visits someone else's facility and booes them is low class and tacky. It does not matter where they are from. Too bad their mama didn't teach them some manners. I have never booed another team anywhere at anytime. I consider it rude, classless, tacky and trashy. In that particular case it is something that will be embedded in people's memory and not forgotten.



So I assume you have never been to a sporting event? Because I have been to quite a few. Many different sports on a domestic and National team level and I have never, ever ever been to one where there was no booing, against the home team and the visiting team.

And yeah hopefully the memory isn't forgotten... It's sports, that's how rivalries are created. The rivalry is what makes certain games more interesting. Not a well thought out thing to say. We are talking about sports. Maybe you should examine the way you think if booing at a sporting event, in your opinion, is a reason to "not forget" what a COUNTRY did and not whatever team was playing, in that particular era of the sport and how heated a certain rivalry is, based on previous matches leading up to that particular match you witnessed this crime of booing. That is pretty scary to me that there are people in this country that will see say, Canada or Mexico boo the USA at a fucking sporting event and take it so personal that they actually get mad at the country. Seems like they might just be looking for an excuse for their pre-existing hate.

Oh wait, you know what? I have been to a sporting event where there is no booing. My friend's 5 year old daughter is on a soccer team. I went to go watch a game with him because he was so proud he wanted to show me. Not one person booed because these are children. The children aren't mentally mature enough to handle such adversity like booing. They are 5... And Golf, there is no booing in golf either. EXCITING!

You are a grownup. If booing affects you that much I feel sorry for you, don't go to a sporting event. It's a game. Both sides want to win. There will be cheering and booing involved if anyone cares about what is going on.

ArtMan wrote:


I think the REAL Americans are the decent people who always there when someone around the world needs help. In every case of tragic events like when the tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanoes and earthquakes strike around the world, no other people give more aid, more money or more volunteer time than Americans. That is a proven fact. Usually Americans give more than the rest of the world put together. I would much rather people all over the world remember that, the MILLIONS of Americans that have done that and consistently do that, rather than some group of tacky trashy fans yelling at fans from another nation's team.



What the fuck does that have to do with sports?




Buz
Posted: Friday, July 29, 2011 6:49:47 AM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,778
Location: Atlanta, United States
I agree with ArtMan about booing at sporting events. It says a lot about your upbringing and dignity. if you are fine with the booing then that is a reflection of your upbringing, dignity and class or lack thereof.

Sure most people are offended when the opponents fans boo your team. I would take it more personally if they are booing my national team. If it is my favorite professional sports team, well, so what. I will not like it but it kind of goes with pro sports doesn't it? They cannot ban people from coming to the games just because they lack any class.

Probably a lot of booing and is crowd mentality. Then you have to ask yourself if you are intelligent enough to be bigger than that or are you just a follower that is easily swayed.

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