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No longer any good old fashioned debates Options · View
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 4:39:17 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like what the world is missing is more good old fashioned debates. I feel like lately, whether it be in person or in the Lush forums, what used to be debates has now become straight up arguments. When two people of different opinions meet there is no longer the process of taking turns to present what you believe and why you believe what you believe, then allowing the other side to present their beliefs. I feel like each time I see or hear a debate beginning, it somehow becomes extremely personal as people get pissed off and take it extremely personal as each side begins to insult the other side. In a true debate, there would be no blatant personal attacks aimed at those who do not believe what you believe.

I feel that if a true debate were to happen, regardless of the topic (religion, politics, NFL, best TV show, etc), there are only two possible outcomes that would occur.

1) When presented the beliefs of the opposite side, your existing personal beliefs will only seem truer to you as a result of seeing why you don't believe/agree with the opposite side

or

2) When presented the beliefs of the opposite side, your eyes/heart/mind will be opened and you will see that your existing personal beliefs were way off.

Personally, I feel that if either of those options to you then one is better off as a human being. But this can only happen in a healthy debate. If the debate gets personal and becomes an argument, each side will only become pissed off and will feel that their beliefs are stronger and truer to them but that is only because they are so angry at the opposite side that they will do anything in their power to not associate with them.


Does anyone else agree or at least somewhat feel the same way? Please notice this is all my personal opinion (I feel this.... I feel that....)
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 5:22:55 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
yesss! i feel just like you do. debate is one of the purest forms of education. debate is truly meant to elevate and enlighten us. and there is no room for name calling or even anger really..passion yes, anger no. however, that does get lost in the heat of the moment and "winning" becomes more important than learning...and that is when we leave debate and enter an argument. i dont ever really feel like debate should be personal...but again easier said than done

excellent post :)
sprite
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:42:12 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 13,657
Location: My Tower, United States
you're both wrong. and you smell bad! drunken
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:43:51 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
I feel like you are right. I know from personal experience that i can be too forward (presumptuous even), my ego can be TOO big and at the same time it can be easily crushed by opposing forces. I guess what i am trying to say is that not only can be one of those assholes that throws out insults instead of I feel statements, but i can, and have been, one of those people who is easily crushed by insults and ends up feeling bad about himself (even if i don't always show it). So yes in conclusion you are right that good old fashioned debates are a lost art form. However, sprite is right in that i do currently smell bad (just got back from the gym. Ready to start my day!)
Jingle
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 12:11:24 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2011
Posts: 164
Location: In my favourite blankey.
Debating is certainly a constructive art, when done well. I know from my own personal life, people seem to be lacking the ability. Every comment of debate seems to be taken as a direct attack on their person, starting an argument. Are people so sensitive now?

LadyX
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 10:51:43 AM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,661
Location: United States
I agree with you, bellMAN. I think it's hard as hell to have civilized discussions about matters such as politics, morals, and religion, but one aim of this particular section of the forum is to attempt just that. I think we do a pretty good job of it. In general, different viewpoints are raised, and either bolstered or challenged by others, and by and large, it doesn't get particularly ugly.

Inevitably, there are going to be stances that others are entrenched within, or that others won't consider. Sometimes that's because they're closed-minded, and other times it's because they simply feel that they've already been through the process of considering that particular point of view and feel a conviction for their own beliefs. I think it's a matter of perspective which is which. So, I think it would be naive to expect people to frequently have "wow, I never considered it that way, I think you might be right" moments, but it does happen occasionally, and as long as people aren't using these sorts of conversations as excuses to attack, and generally act like assholes, then no harm is done.

I try to consider all sides, and more often than not, when I get heated, it's in objection to the way a certain argument is raised, as opposed to the content of the argument. Either way, I think it's really important for everyone to keep talking and keep thinking. I've suffered some fatigue lately, admittedly, but the minute that we collectively stop giving a shit, is the moment that our situation becomes twice as dire as before.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 11:14:05 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,342
Location: Alabama, United States
Debate is definitely lacking. Sadly I've been drawn in and have become too beligerant here before. Thanks for reminding me that debate is a good thing.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 1:33:10 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
I have often seen on here (and on other sites... and in real life) that when people feel like they may be 'losing' a debate or that they are not capable of voicing their opinion well that they resort to personal attacks as has been mentioned above.

I'm sure people have seen me say it in various forum topics, but I'll say it again, if your point of view is as spot on as you think it is then it should be able to stand up on it's own two feet. And by this I mean that it should be able to hold it's own without the person resorting to 'techniques' such as trying to put people down on a personal level, or, by behaving in an intimidating manner towards the other person/people.

I love debates, I do, however I try to only enter ones I feel I have to (not that I do have to, of course evil4 ) because there is only so many times I can watch someone switch into one of the following modes:

Mode 1) Intimidation

Mode 2) Putting down

Mode 3) Taking personal offence

Taking personal offence - ARRRRGHHH! I have seen so many people, even friends of mine, get upset about how you don't share their point of view. Debates are not a personal thing, it's a matter of opinion and, let's face it, we're all entitled to our own.

We all know the saying: ' If you can't stand the heat...GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN '
Guest
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23:19 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
...and reside in the mediocre middle ground and let all agree to disagree. Seems to be the current tide herein and in US politics. Lets "talk about it," but lets not hash it out. Lets not actually see things for what they are.
naughtynurse
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:11:08 AM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 6,470
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
LittleBambi wrote:
I have often seen on here (and on other sites... and in real life) that when people feel like they may be 'losing' a debate or that they are not capable of voicing their opinion well that they resort to personal attacks as has been mentioned above.

I'm sure people have seen me say it in various forum topics, but I'll say it again, if your point of view is as spot on as you think it is then it should be able to stand up on it's own two feet. And by this I mean that it should be able to hold it's own without the person resorting to 'techniques' such as trying to put people down on a personal level, or, by behaving in an intimidating manner towards the other person/people.

I love debates, I do, however I try to only enter ones I feel I have to (not that I do have to, of course evil4 ) because there is only so many times I can watch someone switch into one of the following modes:

Mode 1) Intimidation

Mode 2) Putting down

Mode 3) Taking personal offence

Taking personal offence - ARRRRGHHH! I have seen so many people, even friends of mine, get upset about how you don't share their point of view. Debates are not a personal thing, it's a matter of opinion and, let's face it, we're all entitled to our own.

We all know the saying: ' If you can't stand the heat...GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN '


I know I can be guilty of this. I tend to do a lot more lurking, so when I respond its usually because its something I feel fairly strongly about.



A special thank you to all who read and voted on my competition Quickie, a Recomended Read: Something Borrowed
Guest
Posted: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:26:40 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
eviotis wrote:
...and reside in the mediocre middle ground and let all agree to disagree. Seems to be the current tide herein and in US politics. Lets "talk about it," but lets not hash it out. Lets not actually see things for what they are.


I am wondering if you could possibly explain this with more detail. I am intrigued by what you have said
overmykneenow
Posted: Monday, October 24, 2011 1:57:10 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2010
Posts: 966
Location: United Kingdom
Unfortunately, there's no such thing as old fashioned debate - Ad hominen attacks, such as those you mention are as old as debate itself and make up just a small part of a number Logical Fallacies. Read this: All About Logical Fallacies

Of course philosophical debate being what it is, these fallacies are also seen by some as essential tools to describe and understand basic human interaction.

For my money - opinion is opinion, fact is fact. Presented facts can be proved to be wrong. Opinions, by definition can't be wrong (though that's a matter I'll gladly discuss). Opinions can be horrifyingly ill-informed but they can't be wrong - debate must allow for opinions to change on both sides of an argument.

Anyone who doesn't agree with me on this is an idiot ;)

Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead
TheDevilsWeakness
Posted: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:23:36 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 7/19/2011
Posts: 1,270
Location: I'm the girl that your father hoped he could date.
I love a good old-fashioned debate.
When it involves personal attacks against someone with a different point of view, its no longer a debate. Its an attack.
I consider a debate to be a meeting of different viewpoints, not who can yell the loudest or who can beat me to death with statistics and articles.
I think a great debate is when someone from the opposing viewpoint can CHANGE MY MIND (or at least make me rethink my own personal beliefs), by backing up their view with facts and an eloquent presentation. In other words, prepared.
A debate is supposed to make you think. Not shut off your brain and start thumping your chest over it just to prove your point.
Knowledge is power... lets be civilized and learn something different everyday, preferably over a nice glass of wine. 3601

Danand
Posted: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 6:54:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/11/2011
Posts: 59
Location: Newcastle
People get all caught up in being on one side or the other when discussing politics, economics, social issues., religion, You're either Conservative or Liberal....Socialist or Anarchist. And somehow the doctrinal differences between those ideologies becomes the focus of any interaction. It gets personal and insulting. People have lost the ability to agree to disagree. They feel the need to silence and ridicule any voice of opposition.

It's counterproductive in the extreme, innit. How in hell can we learn anything of our opponents, if we're too busy shouting at them to hear what they're saying back?

I must say I was pleasantly surprised to see the level of discussion and civility among users here is actually quite high...in Net terms.It's why I joined. All I really was doing when I first found this site was seeing if any of my stories might get published here. It was the suggestion of a friend from fb who had read a few of them. And a few of yours.

“No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.”
― P.J. O'Rourke
Buz
Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2011 6:15:50 AM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,176
Location: Atlanta, United States
Because most people whether they consider themselves liberal or conservative are narrow minded, bigoted and hate anyone who dissents from their own opinion. Watch out for the ones who call themselves open minded. If they are they usually do not have to proclaim it.

I have written a new poem. It is called 'Long Twisty Woman.'
You can read it at: http://www.lushstories.com/stories/erotic-poems/long-twisty-woman.aspxx
Also, if you wish, check out my co-authored a story with the wonderful DanielleX. It is called 'Focus on Sex.'
You can read it at: http://www.lushstories.com/stories/quickie-sex/focused-on-sex-1.aspx

Guest
Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:02:58 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
If there's one thing this world needs more of, it's good old fashioned dueling. Pistols, swords, knives, you name it....everybody loves a good duel.
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:12:57 PM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,661
Location: United States
Manny8 wrote:
If there's one thing this world needs more of, it's good old fashioned dueling. Pistols, swords, knives, you name it....everybody loves a good duel.


I totally agree. I think I was born 250 years too late.
Danand
Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:21:49 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/11/2011
Posts: 59
Location: Newcastle
Manny8 wrote:
If there's one thing this world needs more of, it's good old fashioned dueling. Pistols, swords, knives, you name it....everybody loves a good duel.


Oh defo swords. Far more elan that pistols.

....and do you do those dashing flights down sets of velvet drapes and ship's rigging to leap upon an unsuspecting opponent? In the style of Errol Flynn and Douglas Fairbanks?

Coz you know...that's really hot.

“No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.”
― P.J. O'Rourke
Guest
Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:56:58 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
Danand wrote:
Manny8 wrote:
If there's one thing this world needs more of, it's good old fashioned dueling. Pistols, swords, knives, you name it....everybody loves a good duel.


Oh defo swords. Far more elan that pistols.

....and do you do those dashing flights down sets of velvet drapes and ship's rigging to leap upon an unsuspecting opponent? In the style of Errol Flynn and Douglas Fairbanks?

Coz you know...that's really hot.



No love for Ryan O'Neil and his pistol?

/ Barry Lyndon is a great movie.
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