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kaotik1
Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:44:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/31/2011
Posts: 81
Me and a friend of mine were drinking last night when we had an interesting conversation about a phrase is used.

"The military is there to defend our freedom."

How can this be so if were in another country? That to me isn't defending our freedom that is spreading western influence into that country were in. If for whatever reason you get into trouble in a foreign government soil the first person your calling is the embassy NOT to the military to ensure your rights as a citizen aren't abused.

so what are your thoughts on this matter??

Just let it go.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 5:57:07 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,140
Location: United States
Our military is stronger than any other country in the world. Our Navy is stronger than the combined navies of the ten next largest countries altogether. Our Army, Marines, and Air Force are arguably better trained, better equipped, and more populous than any other. The Continental United States hasn't been invaded by any foreign army in any significant way since the War of 1812. We've fought in theaters too numerous to mention since then, but we've never been invaded.

George Orwell said it best, when he said, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Of course, Eleanor Roosevelt came close when she said, "The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!"



Guest
Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:57:00 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,824
"The military is there to defend our freedom."

Sure, as long as there is a return on the investment. And, for the most part, at this time, here and now, I don't believe that our freedom is what our gubernment is vested in.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:08:00 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,281
Location: Cakeland, United States
Seems like America has been at war somewhere for all my friggin life. I don't think there's been a consecutive 6 years when the United States hasn't been bombing some country from the air or the sea or had troops on the ground.

I'm so fucking tired of this shit. If this is the price we pay for freedom, I say fuck that noise.

This is freedom?

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Jezziebelle
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 1:45:00 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/23/2009
Posts: 274
Location: United States
... and yet all of you posting replies to this undoubtedly enjoy and completely underappreciate the amount of freedom you have.

In many countries even having this conversation would be considered treason and could land you in prison or worse. Especially as a woman, and one who has served in that very military that you are questioning, I completely appreciate what is going on around the world. Most of the time when you are talking about war or other events in the world that you see on the news you are seeing a biased or incomplete version of the truth. The media doesn't care about the truth, they care about being published/viewed and making money.

When our men and women enlist in the military they are signing a blank check to the government and it's citizens worth up to and including the price of their lives. Sometimes it is difficult to see the direct relationship of their actions to our rights here, but I would argue that the general public is not privvy to most of the intelligence and information that drives foreign policy and military action decisions. So before you discuss whether or not the military is really defending American freedoms, try living a day in our shoes, seeing what we see, and doing what we do.

Most of us agree that WWII was necessary to defend our freedoms at home and yet that war was fought in other countries as well. We were attacked at Pearl Harbor, yes, but the rest of the war was fought overseas.

We were attacked on 9/11. It might have been 10 years ago, but it still happened. Sometimes I wish they would replay the news coverage from that day so that people don't lose sight of what happened and the people that were lost. ON AMERICAN SOIL. So yes, I will fight overseas if it even has a chance of preventing another attack HERE. To me, THAT is defending American freedom.

Right there. Oh yeah baby. Right there.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:14:21 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,140
Location: United States
eviotis wrote:
"The military is there to defend our freedom."

Sure, as long as there is a return on the investment. And, for the most part, at this time, here and now, I don't believe that our freedom is what our gubernment is vested in.


The answer to this is simple. Change the government back into one that does have our freedom as it's primary focus. They say change can only happen from within. When are you running for office?

Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:22:52 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,824
When reason, not might, makes right. When things are not taken out of context, or misquoted in order to express opinion. When people stop being so "correct", and are not offended by an assumed incorrect.

I.E., probably never.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:23:12 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,140
Location: United States
WellMadeMale wrote:
Seems like America has been at war somewhere for all my friggin life. I don't think there's been a consecutive 6 years when the United States hasn't been bombing some country from the air or the sea or had troops on the ground.

I'm so fucking tired of this shit. If this is the price we pay for freedom, I say fuck that noise.

This is freedom?


When I was in my twenties, I had a good friend that was in her sixties. I said that very same thing to her. She was wondering why the youth of the time seemed to be a lot less patriotic than they were in "her day". I asked her if she could remember what it was like living in a world at peace. She said she could. I replied, "To me, there never HAS been a time where our nation was at peace."

Our military forces have been used for some dubious purposes in the last few decades, there's no doubt about it. But you can't blame the military for that. You can't blame the sword for cutting you - have to blame the arm wielding the sword. As it stands now, all other countries in the world are so deathly afraid of our might that they would never consider invading us, or attacking us openly. Hopefully, most organized terrorists are also afraid of what we'll do that they'll think twice before pulling another open attack like they did in September of 2001. This is the gift that our military gives us through their sacrifices. They earn our peace every day - they pay for it with their blood. I for one am thankful for the brave men and women that stand ready to do violence on my behalf.

Anything happens to limit our freedom comes from our own government, and for this, we have only ourselves to blame.



TransitionalMan
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:16:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/27/2009
Posts: 108
Location: Ohio, United States
As someone more then slightly conversant in national security issues, the primary purpose of the armed forces is to defend us against foreign enemies, which included native Americans, and only in extreme situations. Soldiers do not have police powers unless explicitly granted for a specific purpose, and so far at least those powers have only been emergencies. The only armed force with actual police powers (defending us against ourselves) is the Coast Guard in their role of regulating and maintaining water transportation. Now the US Coast Guard is a lot bigger and more powerful then most navies, but it's military purpose has traditionally been secondary to its commercial and legal roles, except during wartime, and then primarily during really large conflicts like World War II. But the Guard is trained for war, and many of their larger cutters have been designed with some consideration for combat.

The role of the U.S. changed after the Second World War, where the traditional powers France, Britain and Germany were deeply wounded and would take decades recovering. The U.S. ended the war as the world's pre-eminent economic and military power with the Soviet Union a rival only militarily. The war also led many colonial nations to think that if their colonial masters fought for their freedom, why shouldn't they do that as well? As the colonies peeled away, the power of France and Britain declined relative to the US, and Germany gave up any and all quest for international power. We assumed the role of person who maintained the political and economic status quo in the world. In most cases our work was benign, but Americans are people, and people screw up. We spent the fifties and early sixties obsessed with the "Domino Theory" which led us to intervene militarily in Vietnam, and in many other nations. In additions American military and diplomatic power has been used to meddle in the internal affairs of many other nations, including the overthrow of democratically elected Presidents. While the American people have an attachment to democracy the historical record is quite clear in showing that whenever business interests have collided with our commitment to democracy, democracy loses.

This doesn't make us any worse then anyone else, but we are not the angels we make ourselves out to be. Nor are we a particularly generous nation, as we have rested for years on the laurels of the Marshall plan and the generousity shown in the wake of World War II. Right now among the rich nations on this planet, the United States gives the lowest percentage of its GNP of any of the world's prosperous nations, and most of what we give is directly tied to security interests.

We also have a very powerful military. That's a good thing in very many ways, but the political process is very difficult. The reality of electoral politics is that people demand solutions to perceive problems, and we tend to think of a year or two as a long time, when in the true history of time it's the blink of an eye. A powerful military always tempts politicians under public pressure, and so we have intervened in some places where we probably might not. At the end of the day, Tip O'Neill was right, all politics are local. Domestic politics drives international relations here, and in all other nations. Most Americans do not understand that when Iran seized the American Embassy in 1979 which led to the hostage crisis, the reason the crisis happened was Khomeini used it to take power in Iran. Much of the time, other nations relations with us are driven more by domestic political needs then practical considerations. Our bad relations with Iran today fall into that category, as the regime derives much of its identity from its willingness to stand up to a superpower. Superpowers make convenient scapegoats, particularly when they aren't angels.

We have been at war a lot, mostly because starting wars is easier when you have good reason to think you'll win. Short, victorious wars are always popular domestically, no matter what country you were born in. We have also made wars for reasons both altruistic and selfish. We're people, and we do mean well most of the time. We've done a lot of good. But we're far from perfect.
Guest
Posted: Friday, December 16, 2011 2:29:24 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,824
Wow, nicely said David.
Michael_X
Posted: Saturday, December 24, 2011 5:52:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 12/20/2011
Posts: 76
Location: T.M.I., United States
Defend our freedoms

A considerable amount of troops are stationed right here in the states (From Marines - Airmen) Not to mention we also have a large number of reservist in the States as well that at any moment can be called up if something happened on US Soil. Not to mention the National Guard.

As far as why we are in another country entirely. We like Democracy, we like to spread it.

"Do you want to live to work or work to live"

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

"Always hold you head up high, never come off weak"

Michael
WellMadeMale
Posted: Saturday, December 24, 2011 10:10:14 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,281
Location: Cakeland, United States
Anyone who thinks that I am railing on the personnel who compose the American Armed Forces needs to read War Is A Racket by the twice decorated Medal of Honor - USMC Major General - Smedley Butler.

You will see that I am railing against the same fuckers he railed against in speeches and a book he published in 1935.

I stumbled across it several years ago. Many years before 9/11/2001, in point of fact.

For those of you who don't prefer to read anything more substantial than erotic stories, here is the wiki 411

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

Click the blue link above to bring up the .pdf document and bookmark or save it...to read what a man who lived the military life, had to say about that which he devoted a large chunk of his life to.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
deal1
Posted: Sunday, December 25, 2011 7:38:43 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 12/22/2011
Posts: 38
Location: United States
It was an honor to serve my country.Proud USN vet!
TransitionalMan
Posted: Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:07:24 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/27/2009
Posts: 108
Location: Ohio, United States
Michael_X wrote:
Defend our freedoms

As far as why we are in another country entirely. We like Democracy, we like to spread it.


Actually, a careful study of history shows that while Americans like to talk about Democracy, we don't care about it at all. Every time we've been forced to choose between Democracy and business interests, we choose money. Coups we backed in Iran, Guatemala, Chile and (most recently) Venezuela shows we put the almighty dollar first.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 31, 2011 5:40:35 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,824
Looking at the last two posts remind's me of what the issue sometimes becomes. We the people. should and do honour and respect our troops, but when non-military citizens besmirch the military it is sometimes overlaps or is misconstrued as a slant toward those individuals solely. To question and disbelieve those who "defend," is not a slight on those who actually, physically, and selflessly do.



Yes, even the pacifists get it wrong sometimes, and forget to explain further.
CharlotteRusse1
Posted: Sunday, January 01, 2012 9:28:55 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/9/2011
Posts: 202
Location: United States
We owe it to the men and women in the armed services to use our military power judiciously and efficiently. We should not be buying extra expensive cold war weapons when we won't spend the money to treat our returning vets properly for post traumatic stress disorder.

Writer of amateur erotica since 2011..See the latest at:

charmbrights
Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 10:23:07 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/2/2011
Posts: 192
Location: Tirphil, United Kingdom
Michael_X wrote:
... As far as why we are in another country entirely. We like Democracy, we like to spread it.

I too like democracy, but I live in a country with an educated population who are sufficiently sophisticated to have political parties.

In countries where political parties do not exist, and never have existed, democracy as we understand it (one vote for each adult citizen) simply will not work. In some countries, and I will cite part of the UK as an example, the voting choice does not depend on party policies, but is largely ethnic, tribal, or theological.

A wonderful example is Northern Ireland where Catholics vote for Catholic "parties" and Protestants vote for "Protestant" parties. The only way to make this appear to work is to have artificial power sharing, otherwise the demographics would ensure that one group had all the power until the other group managed to breed faster than them. Remember that this situation is perpetuated by denominational schools which indoctrinate religion from an early age, much as non-US Citizen pupils are required to take the oath of allegiance in US public schools.

This is in a country where effectively all the citizens can read. In less educated countries, where there is widespread illiteracy that situation is even worse.

Sending in your army to enforce one-person-one-vote (or in some places one-man-one-vote) in such countries does not bring instant democracy in any meaningful form, anymore than enforcing simple plurality voting in Northern Ireland would solve the "troubles".



News of ALL my novels (and where to get free copies) on charmbrights.webs.com/novels.htm.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:20:36 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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US children are not required to take an oath of allegiance here.
charmbrights
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 2:53:46 AM

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Joined: 9/2/2011
Posts: 192
Location: Tirphil, United Kingdom
chefkathleen wrote:
charmbrights wrote:
... much as non-US Citizen pupils are required to take the oath of allegiance in US public schools. ...

US children are not required to take an oath of allegiance here.

I don't know where your "here" is, but a few years ago my grandchildren were expected to stand up and recite some words to the US flag each morning in a school in VA, just outside D.C. They are both British-born British citizens and their father was working in the USA temporarily.

News of ALL my novels (and where to get free copies) on charmbrights.webs.com/novels.htm.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 7:59:54 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Well maybe that's why. I live in the United States Charm and all of the schools I know of have taken the pledge of allegiance out of the school day.
magnificent1rascal
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 8:27:45 AM

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Posts: 3,018
Location: On the ragged edge of disaster
charmbrights wrote:
...a few years ago my grandchildren were expected to stand up and recite some words to the US flag each morning in a school in VA, just outside D.C.


Charmbrights, this should have been reported to the school district administration. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled more than once that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, or be punished for not doing so.

As with ChefKathleen, all schools I know of have abandoned the practice of reciting the Pledge.

Maggie Rascal
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 8:34:10 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
magnificent1rascal wrote:


Charmbrights, this should have been reported to the school district administration. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled more than once that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, or be punished for not doing so.

As with ChefKathleen, all schools I know of have abandoned the practice of reciting the Pledge.


Except for here in Texas, where kids have to pledge to both the US and the f***ing Texas flag, too! I had to choke back a little vomit just to state that, but unfortunately it's true. But what do you expect? This is the state that has elected Rick Perry as governor multiple times.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:48:13 AM

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i serve in the military and have deployed 4 times...now i know what i defend and i defend the right of people to love, hate or feel apathetic towards the US, I still am willing to lay down my life for all of them
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:56:16 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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This country has flaws, but when it comes down to it, there are brave women and men risking it all for YOU. So at times when you get discouraged at the politics or constant warfare of this country, remember how blessed you are. The military is full of the most brave and courageous people the USA has. While they are separted from their families and loved ones fighting for their lives, you get to stay home safe with your family and friends. That's what I call "defending freedom".
sgfan97
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 8:21:19 PM

Rank: Rookie Scribe

Joined: 1/3/2012
Posts: 5
Location: Arlington , United States
I have mixed emotions on this subject. One one hand I think that since these men and women "signed" on for the military its their own business, and the the people who praise them for their " thoughtless heroism" are just plain annoying. These people signed up to fight for their countries, no one forced them to die, or get wounded in action. These people thought about going into the military, many because of the G.I. bill and school being paid for. On the other hand, if they didn't sign up for this kind of duty our country would be in a serious mess. Our military is the strongest in the world, and its because of laws and bills , shown as incentives. This shouldnt be the case. If someone wants to die for their country, or fight, they should'nt receicve incentives to do it. It should be because they have the balls to do it. call me what you will but thats my thought.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 8:31:59 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,140
Location: United States
sgfan97 wrote:
I have mixed emotions on this subject. One one hand I think that since these men and women "signed" on for the military its their own business, and the the people who praise them for their " thoughtless heroism" are just plain annoying. These people signed up to fight for their countries, no one forced them to die, or get wounded in action. These people thought about going into the military, many because of the G.I. bill and school being paid for. On the other hand, if they didn't sign up for this kind of duty our country would be in a serious mess. Our military is the strongest in the world, and its because of laws and bills , shown as incentives. This shouldnt be the case. If someone wants to die for their country, or fight, they should'nt receicve incentives to do it. It should be because they have the balls to do it. call me what you will but thats my thought.



They don't deserve praise for being willing to die for their (our) country. They deserve praise because they're the baddest mothers on the face of the planet, and they work hard at making all the other poor sumbutches die for theirs.

Buz
Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:49:51 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,706
Location: Atlanta, United States
No doubt we need our military to defend our freedom or we would not exist as a nation. However, I am sick and tired of being used as the world's police force. And that cost us a lot more tax money. Unless our own sovereignty is threatened American troops should stay within our own borders. No more using our military might to enforce global politics!

I think we should let the UN get someone else to carry the load. It is time to bring back some good old fashioned isolationist policies. Let's stay the fuck out of anyone else's business and keep American troops home.

And if someone wants to donate foreign aid that should be up to individual citizens. The government should quit taxing us for such purposes. Doing so is contrary to freedom and liberty. Besides the incredible high mismanagement, bureaucracy and waste by our own government and the UN is outrageous.

fannietuesday
Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 1:41:51 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 16
Location: United States
sgfan97 wrote:
I have mixed emotions on this subject. One one hand I think that since these men and women "signed" on for the military its their own business, and the the people who praise them for their " thoughtless heroism" are just plain annoying. These people signed up to fight for their countries, no one forced them to die, or get wounded in action. These people thought about going into the military, many because of the G.I. bill and school being paid for. On the other hand, if they didn't sign up for this kind of duty our country would be in a serious mess. Our military is the strongest in the world, and its because of laws and bills , shown as incentives. This shouldnt be the case. If someone wants to die for their country, or fight, they should'nt receicve incentives to do it. It should be because they have the balls to do it. call me what you will but thats my thought.


I have never been so pissed off by a forum post as I am by this one. Who are you to decide who should get financial incentives for long-term commitments and who shouldn't? You've obviously never heard of a "signing bonus" - did that affect my choice of employment? Of course it did!
And I guess I'm just plain annoying because I'm going to praise my cousin (and his young family) and my country's military for their "thoughtless heroisms" every single day of my life. You know why? Because I CAN in this FREE land he/they defend for me.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 1:57:39 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 531,824
Buz wrote:
No doubt we need our military to defend our freedom or we would not exist as a nation. However, I am sick and tired of being used as the world's police force. And that cost us a lot more tax money. Unless our own sovereignty is threatened American troops should stay within our own borders. No more using our military might to enforce global politics!

I think we should let the UN get someone else to carry the load. It is time to bring back some good old fashioned isolationist policies. Let's stay the fuck out of anyone else's business and keep American troops home.

And if someone wants to donate foreign aid that should be up to individual citizens. The government should quit taxing us for such purposes. Doing so is contrary to freedom and liberty. Besides the incredible high mismanagement, bureaucracy and waste by our own government and the UN is outrageous.


I don't think isolationist policies are the way to go completely Buz. There's a lot of crazy fucks out there that we need to keep a close eye on and we can't do it from Washington D.C. or Los Angeles. Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, China, and at least ten other countries with crazy leaders that would dance in the street to see us and our allies wiped out. Give them a chance to build a nuclear weapon and it will be done and used before you can say Ron Paul.
Buz
Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 2:08:09 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,706
Location: Atlanta, United States
chefkathleen wrote:


I don't think isolationist policies are the way to go completely Buz. There's a lot of crazy fucks out there that we need to keep a close eye on and we can't do it from Washington D.C. or Los Angeles. Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, China, and at least ten other countries with crazy leaders that would dance in the street to see us and our allies wiped out. Give them a chance to build a nuclear weapon and it will be done and used before you can say Ron Paul.


Kathleen, unfortunately Iran is very close to having a nuclear bomb it they do not actually have it now. Pakistan already does and they are everyday leaning toward becoming a more radical fundamentalist anti-western muslim state.

I do think China is less dangerous militarily as for actually having a war with us. They want to do business with us but would rattle their sabers to get the better deal and might fund our enemies. They are turning from communist to the most dangerous capitalist since they still have an autocratic dictatorship ruled by a small committee.

But nevertheless I do dream of isolationist politics and a military that stays out of everyone's business. It is just a dream. A fantasy really.

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