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Kitanica
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:00:40 PM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 882
Location: The Sprawl, United States
Now that's it late in the day I'm sure it's not a surprise that the supreme court finally released their ruling:

the affordable health care act is constitutional

(with the exception of Medicaid expansion. prior to today states that did not participate in the planned Medicaid elligbillity expansion faced the threat of the government taking away their Medicaid funding. The court said the government can not blackmail the states so that's out)

the only real surprise being the chief justice (a life long consetvative republican appointed by bush) was the deciding vote, in a 4-4 split between the justices and actually sided with democrats.
an analyst on NBC said this should be somewhat comforting to Americans because it was not purely a political ruling.

any thoughts? personally I think it's a step in the right direction. Not perfect but it's the "right" thing to do. also it's funny watching all the republicans flip out. they didn't think it would be upheld. sorry mitt Read it looks like the system works
Guest
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:16:28 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
i'm on the fence. mandatory health and auto insurance just seems like one of those easily quoted 'slippery slopes' argument starters. i can see how it is beneficial, but at the same time i see the drawbacks.
TXhoney
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:24:39 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 138
Location: United States
I will probably get roasted alive for this but I am going to say it anyways. As someone who works in the healthcare field, I KNOW what I'm talking about. All of you Obamacare supporters can kiss your high quality of healthcare goodbye. Before long, your ONLY healthcare choices are going to be CASH ONLY care or standing in line at your local Obama established clinic where you will have government pocketed physicians who couldn't care less. You also might want to know that now that the individual mandate is a tax YOU (not your employer or those rich fat cats) will be forced to pay the tax (out of your pocket) or the IRS will: take it out of your tax return, levy a fine against you, seize your bank account or any other asset you may have.

This is not limited government people! Its not about if the Republicans or Democrats won. At the end of the day it comes down to did the American people win and are we better for this?

Guest
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 9:32:11 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
Quote:
All of you Obamacare supporters can kiss your high quality of healthcare goodbye. Before long, your ONLY healthcare choices are going to be CASH ONLY care or standing in line at your local Obama established clinic where you will have government pocketed physicians who couldn't care less.


What makes you say this?
Juicyme
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 10:42:22 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/7/2011
Posts: 177
Location: between a rock and grad school applications, Unite
America has some of the highest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer, diabetes and a host of other crap, but seems to be against universal healthcare. The US is the only developed nation without it. Furthermore, if I have to pay an additional tax to make sure that in the future that if I need to go to the emergency room or one of my family members, then I'll do it. Additionally, now everyone seems to be upset at a new tax, maybe if the taxing loopholes were closed in the first place and people couldn't write off millions of dollars as charity...sorry another rant for another time. But seriously, how else are we supposed to pay for anything in this country...ask China to hold more of our debt?

And one last thing, just because ACA was ruled constitutional, doesn't mean that the law in its entirety will even work. It's not up to SCOTUS to decide whether a law is stupid or it will work, just the constitutionality of it.
TXhoney
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:04:08 AM

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Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 138
Location: United States
chefkathleen wrote:


What makes you say this?


Millions of American families face $2,000 a year increases in health insurance costs as companies shift the cost of new federal mandates to consumers. Hundreds of community hospitals face closure or sale and phony "savings" are really Medicare cuts that will chase doctors away from services to the elderly. Furthermore, 1. It turned "consent of the governed" into fiction. 2. It raises healthcare costs and taxes for those who work to pay for those who don't while reducing the quality of care for everyone. 3. It unconstitutionally expands federal power by requiring citizens to purchase. 4. It makes the populace more dependent on handouts from politicians, weakening the character of the nation. 5. It has killed job growth and recovery. 6. It sends more debt to our children. All undermine our country.

ponyboy
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:07:03 AM

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Posts: 384
Location: United States
The healthcare bill was modeled after Mitt's Mass. health care plan, now he backpetals and says he'll do away with it?? If Obama care is defeated at some point, medicare, medicaid, social security, and all govt. benefits will follow in due course, but then there will be a whole different cry of voices in protest, by the same groups. Makes zero sense.

Obama care is far from perfect, but a first step long overdue in this country.Regaeman Man

Guest
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:37:51 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
id much rather just pay a national healthcare tax vs being mandated to buy health insurance i have to say. idk. just makes me look forward to leaving the states and not looking back.
groucho
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 3:24:51 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Nebraska, United States
for me when i hear opponents to the affordable healthcare act speak i have one question: what is so splendid about a healthcare system )physicians, nurses, hospitals, clinics, pharmaceutical companies and health insurance companies) where people are forced to have benefits in order for some families to pay for a catastrophic illness? we in the good old usa have all seen this - from benefit dinners and auctions to the collection cans left on the counters of grocery and convenience stores - my question is why is this necessary if we have "the best healthcare system in the world"? to me this signals that the system, if not broken, needs a lot of help.

perhaps the greatest irony is how we can simply throw money into the defense budget and into corporate welfare programs and into tax write-offs for the very wealthy and yet we scream and bitch and moan when it comes to doing things, like healthcare reform, that would actually help millions of people. what we have on the table now might not be the best possible way to go but we need to take this conversation seriously and deal with it in a way that brings good constructive and helpful reform.

g



"Women should be obscene and not heard."
Groucho Marx
Guest
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 3:37:43 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Insightful post Groucho.
Guest
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 3:50:57 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793
TXhoney wrote:


Millions of American families face $2,000 a year increases in health insurance costs as companies shift the cost of new federal mandates to consumers. Hundreds of community hospitals face closure or sale and phony "savings" are really Medicare cuts that will chase doctors away from services to the elderly. Furthermore, 1. It turned "consent of the governed" into fiction. 2. It raises healthcare costs and taxes for those who work to pay for those who don't while reducing the quality of care for everyone. 3. It unconstitutionally expands federal power by requiring citizens to purchase. 4. It makes the populace more dependent on handouts from politicians, weakening the character of the nation. 5. It has killed job growth and recovery. 6. It sends more debt to our children. All undermine our country.


If that were true and I don't believe it is, I haven't seen the numbers, that would be about 166.00 per household more a month. That can be manageable for a lot of people if it means healthcare for those in the house with preexisting conditions. Community hospitals are facing closure because of people using the facility as a walk in clinic without having to pay anything themselves out of pocket. If they pay at all. Which statistics show they aren't doing.
How you think this is going to be reducing quality of care I have no idea. Everyone is still going to be getting paid it's just going to be harder to gouge people and the system is all. ($12.00 for a 4" comb? Really?)
As for it being unconstitutional, that's what the justices were speaking to on the ruling. It isn't. Plain and simple. And it in no way weakens this country at all or holds down job growth. As Groucho said our healthcare system is broken and has been for a long time. The price gouging is hopefully on the decline with this healthcare reform. It's a beginning and by no means an end at all. But it puts the topic on the table and hopefully forces political discussion and a working plan. At least I hope so. It's not going to leave any more debt to our children than any other plan is. Don't believe everything they tell you.
davie
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 4:20:06 PM

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Joined: 6/16/2009
Posts: 51
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
I just don't understand.The USA is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and yet it cannot look after its poorest citizens and denies them medical aid when ill. Almost every other country in the civilised world has a health service that is free at the point of delivery. Trillions of dollars are spent on weapons of mass destruction which will never be used yet are quite happy to allow people to die because they are poor. A friend of mine recently had a successful life saving operation because he was operated on within 30 mins of collapsing., Nobody went through his pockets looking for his credit card or proof that he could pay for the operation and for weeks in hospital. Thank god he lived the UK and not in America.
groucho
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 4:20:22 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Nebraska, United States
good stuff, too, chef!

g


"Women should be obscene and not heard."
Groucho Marx
Kitanica
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 4:49:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 882
Location: The Sprawl, United States
davie wrote:
I just don't understand.The USA is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and yet it cannot look after its poorest citizens and denies them medical aid when ill. Almost every other country in the civilised world has a health service that is free at the point of delivery. Trillions of dollars are spent on weapons of mass destruction which will never be used yet are quite happy to allow people to die because they are poor. A friend of mine recently had a successful life saving operation because he was operated on within 30 mins of collapsing., Nobody went through his pockets looking for his credit card or proof that he could pay for the operation and for weeks in hospital. Thank god he lived the UK and not in America.


I live IN the usa and I still don't understand why half the things are done the way they are.
Guest
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 6:36:15 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 472,793

I know little of the way the American health system works. What I do know is that I come from a totally medical family and here in England am part of the healthcare system myself. My Dad is a Professor specialising in Carcinoma treatments - and indeed was consulted by your White House when Nancy Regan developed breast cancer - I was just a baby then. My mother is a General Practioner and my elder brother is a surgeon specialising in Cardiology.

Over here we have what's known as the National Health Service. Established by Aneurin Bevan in 1947 as a 'cradle to the grave free to all at the point of need' establishment it has served our nation well - or so I'm told - in past times.

Not so now. Successive governments have eroded bit by bit that service to the point where it is now not even a joke anymore. Our original NHS was established just after world war II when the country was on it's knees ... and it worked bringing free health care to all.

Surely a country like USA with all it's infinite resources and ability to put men on the moon 43 years ago can manage to look after the health of its people - or does personal greed of the rich creep into it as seems to have happened here and to our healthcare system.

Buz
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 10:14:25 PM

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Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,176
Location: Atlanta, United States
If Obama loses the election and the GOP regains control of the House of Representatives they can and will abolish it and the Supreme Court cannot do anything about that. Unfortunately the government does not operate anything very well, so I expect healthcare to actually decline over the next decade. Most small business will opt out of offering any healthcare insurance under Obama's plan. They will then be required to give each employee $2500 per year as part of their pay check to reimburse them for their government insurance payment. So most employees of small companies (under 40 employees) will only have the option of government healthcare. The wealthy will still have access to doctors of their own choosing, but the masses on government healthcare will only have access to the doctors and facilities they are told that they can use. You all should really read up on this stuff before you get so fired up about it. It is never what it seems.



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TXhoney
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 10:45:57 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 138
Location: United States
No system, not even the free economy, can give everyone every­thing he wants at once. It is dan­gerous to allow or encourage any government to substitute its judg­ment for that of its citizens. Let us consider the moral issue. You may feel that this is simple—that it is not morally correct for society to neglect those in need. But is there such a thing as "collective morality"? Is not moral action exclusively individ­ual? Can any action be moral if it is induced by compulsion? Who is acting and thinking in moral terms: the person who, cognizant of those in need, seeks to remedy the situation insofar as possible by resorting to his own pocketbook, or a person who thinks only in terms of legislation to force everyone else to take care of the problem?

Even if the facts were otherwise and it could be shown that the gov­ernment were capable of providing satisfactory medical care, the basic moral question you should ask yourself is this: What right have I to take another’s property without his consent, for my personal use? Under what conditions does it be­come proper or right for any in­dividual or group to rob another?


Piquet
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:38:03 PM

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Joined: 11/12/2009
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
A very interesting discussion, with great contributions - well done guys.

As an Australian, all I can do is look on at all this with grave concern. Governments the world over waste money or channel funds into the wrong places. What is required is a straight forward referrendum on taxation and government expenditure. In short, the government needs to ask people where they want public funds spent. If they do this, I doubt that most people will vote for a huge defence budget over public healthcare.

Here in Australia we have a tiny defence budget compared to the US and we waste public money on lots of things but we do have a good (not great) public health care system. My taxes make it possible and I for one am glad it's there and I'm happy to maintain it.



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lafayettemister
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:19:06 AM

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Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,342
Location: Alabama, United States
We are all speculating what will happen. Some think that healthcare for the masses will improve. Those that arent' getting treatment for whatever ails them will get the attention they deserve. Millions of uninsured Americans will get proper and affordable healthcare.

Others think that it's going to be death panels and 6 month waiting periods to be seen by doctors and the overall healthcare for the masses will actually get worse.

None of us KNOW how this will all play out. But my guess is that it will be somewhere in the middle, but closer to the former of what's mentioned above. When I look at the state of most government run institutions I see lots of waste, fraud, and apathy. Our schools are average at best. Our roads have room for improvement. Our veteran's hospitals are run down (and Pres Obama has said he'd veto a defense appropriations bill if it doesn't include higher health care fees for military members). Healthcare will be available to everyone, but what will the level of care be? That's my concern.

I don't put much weight into it, but I've heard and read several people who are in the medical field say that if this goes into full effect they'll be closing up shop. Or not accept Medicaid patients at all. Buz is right, the rich will still have access and top priority in medical offices. You'll see doctors accepting cash payment customers more frequently. Think about it. If you run any business and you have bills and payroll and taxes to pay. Two customers come in, one will pay you $50-$100 up front and the rest within a week or so. The other pays you nothing up front and the balance comes in to you in 6 months. Which customer would you see first?

I don't see the Republicans winning the White House and controlling the Senate and the House ever happening. So the Obamacare/Affordable Health Care act is here to stay. The test of time will prove how effective this will be. Personally I think it's going to be a clusterfuck.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
LustfulRay
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:39:56 PM

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Four simple words, "Survival of the Fittest"
Guest
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:04:51 PM

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Laurenxxx wrote:

I know little of the way the American health system works. What I do know is that I come from a totally medical family and here in England am part of the healthcare system myself. My Dad is a Professor specialising in Carcinoma treatments - and indeed was consulted by your White House when Nancy Regan developed breast cancer - I was just a baby then. My mother is a General Practioner and my elder brother is a surgeon specialising in Cardiology.

Over here we have what's known as the National Health Service. Established by Aneurin Bevan in 1947 as a 'cradle to the grave free to all at the point of need' establishment it has served our nation well - or so I'm told - in past times.

Not so now. Successive governments have eroded bit by bit that service to the point where it is now not even a joke anymore. Our original NHS was established just after world war II when the country was on it's knees ... and it worked bringing free health care to all.

Surely a country like USA with all it's infinite resources and ability to put men on the moon 43 years ago can manage to look after the health of its people - or does personal greed of the rich creep into it as seems to have happened here and to our healthcare system.



This hit the nail on the head. Sad isn't it?
Hasabrain2
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:18:44 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/1/2011
Posts: 119
TXhoney wrote:
I will probably get roasted alive for this but I am going to say it anyways. As someone who works in the healthcare field, I KNOW what I'm talking about. All of you Obamacare supporters can kiss your high quality of healthcare goodbye. Before long, your ONLY healthcare choices are going to be CASH ONLY care or standing in line at your local Obama established clinic where you will have government pocketed physicians who couldn't care less. You also might want to know that now that the individual mandate is a tax YOU (not your employer or those rich fat cats) will be forced to pay the tax (out of your pocket) or the IRS will: take it out of your tax return, levy a fine against you, seize your bank account or any other asset you may have.

This is not limited government people! Its not about if the Republicans or Democrats won. At the end of the day it comes down to did the American people win and are we better for this?


The other day, I read this story about a middle age man. He needed cancer treatment, but his private sector employer didn't offer it, so the man went into a bank a demanded the teller give him one dollar, that's right one dollar. He then waited politely for the police to arrest him. He knew he would get treatment in prison. Have many cancer patients didn't think of robbing a bank. How many died? You have no liberties if you are dead. Under Obama care, tens of thousand of needless death will be presvented, dozens, maybe even hunderds of hospitals on the verge of banruptcy because of too many unisured patients will stay in business --- maybe the one in your home town.
hammer
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:06:45 PM

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Joined: 8/1/2011
Posts: 3
you have hit the nail on the head.this health plan is directly designed to provide several of the very wealth rich folks even more money and the elderly will see the day when you will be culled and left to die because you are too old and will not receive the health care necessary to keep you alive.Write that down somewhere and also what we have here is the same bullshit healthcare that was started by bill and hillary clinton and watch their wealth skyrocket ten times over what it is now.Take a minute to read the bill snd you will find hundreds of million dollars that have absolutely nothing to do with healthcare.This is just another scam just as the ones you see on the internet every day but it has been blessed by the supreme court.We need to elect mitt romney so that we can repeal it before it destroys out country.
Juicyme
Posted: Sunday, July 01, 2012 12:00:44 AM

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Joined: 2/7/2011
Posts: 177
Location: between a rock and grad school applications, Unite
hammer wrote:
you have hit the nail on the head.this health plan is directly designed to provide several of the very wealth rich folks even more money and the elderly will see the day when you will be culled and left to die because you are too old and will not receive the health care necessary to keep you alive.Write that down somewhere and also what we have here is the same bullshit healthcare that was started by bill and hillary clinton and watch their wealth skyrocket ten times over what it is now.Take a minute to read the bill snd you will find hundreds of million dollars that have absolutely nothing to do with healthcare.This is just another scam just as the ones you see on the internet every day but it has been blessed by the supreme court.We need to elect mitt romney so that we can repeal it before it destroys out country.



You do know the ACA was modeled after Romney's plan that he put into action in Mass. right???
nazhinaz
Posted: Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:23:41 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/16/2010
Posts: 293
Location: Longview, United States
TXhoney wrote:
No system, not even the free economy, can give everyone every­thing he wants at once. It is dan­gerous to allow or encourage any government to substitute its judg­ment for that of its citizens. Let us consider the moral issue. You may feel that this is simple—that it is not morally correct for society to neglect those in need. But is there such a thing as "collective morality"? Is not moral action exclusively individ­ual? Can any action be moral if it is induced by compulsion? Who is acting and thinking in moral terms: the person who, cognizant of those in need, seeks to remedy the situation insofar as possible by resorting to his own pocketbook, or a person who thinks only in terms of legislation to force everyone else to take care of the problem?

Even if the facts were otherwise and it could be shown that the gov­ernment were capable of providing satisfactory medical care, the basic moral question you should ask yourself is this: What right have I to take another’s property without his consent, for my personal use? Under what conditions does it be­come proper or right for any in­dividual or group to rob another?

Just wanna say a few words.
I believe every society, and a nation is a society organized within state boundiries, does have certain COLLECTIVE MORALS.
It is one of such collective morals that we should and if we don't feel it compulsive, share, with our less blessed, less wealthy and really deserving elderly, poor and destitues.
And if britain in 1940's with a broken down economy could come up with NHS, why can't USA who has over 20,000 nukes rusting and stored in stockpiles spending billions of dollars for its safe handling and security?
naughtynurse
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2012 8:09:17 AM

Rank: Head Nurse

Joined: 4/15/2011
Posts: 6,469
Location: Soaking up the sun, United States
TXhoney wrote:
I will probably get roasted alive for this but I am going to say it anyways. As someone who works in the healthcare field, I KNOW what I'm talking about. All of you Obamacare supporters can kiss your high quality of healthcare goodbye. Before long, your ONLY healthcare choices are going to be CASH ONLY care or standing in line at your local Obama established clinic where you will have government pocketed physicians who couldn't care less. You also might want to know that now that the individual mandate is a tax YOU (not your employer or those rich fat cats) will be forced to pay the tax (out of your pocket) or the IRS will: take it out of your tax return, levy a fine against you, seize your bank account or any other asset you may have.

This is not limited government people! Its not about if the Republicans or Democrats won. At the end of the day it comes down to did the American people win and are we better for this?


Big Hugs this!!

Just remember Medicare, medicaid, and the Va are all govt medicine. I work almost exclusively with patients paying with one of these methods. None of them work. What makes you think another govt medicine will be better?




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Ruthie
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2012 9:15:11 AM

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Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,176
Location: United States
Why does medicine have to be for profit anyway. I can understand that medical professionals need to make a living, that doctors devote a lot of time and money to getting their degrees, and that everyone is motivated by profit, but why do we need private insurance companies making a profit? Wouldn't a single payer system be more economical in the long run? If pooling money for health care is what insurance is about, wouldn't it be better to pool everybody's money together in a non-profit fund? If profit is the main motive in health insurance, the insurance companies have too big a stake in denying coverage to people with major illnesses like cancer and heart disease.
LadyX
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2012 10:34:46 AM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,661
Location: United States
Score one for decency.

If Romney wins, he and the Republicans will do their best to take it apart in the name of whatever gives them cover for their top-down plantation politics (I think "freedom" is the buzz-word, just as it was when we were taken along for a couple of west Asian invasions). Based on that ruling, the rest of us win, and that includes a hell of a lot of people who oppose this law (wanting, no doubt, to preserve their rights to go bankrupt and become a needless casualty of our broken, existing system). Those without insurance can now have it. Those with private insurance can and will, of course, keep it. And those that make too much money to qualify for government insurance yet choose not to buy insurance on their own will be taxed. Everyone's flipping out over the word tax, but that tax is the only thing that will offset potential costs which that person will load the system with if anything happens to them without insurance. Don't like those $8 aspirins, do you? Well, the only reason absurdities like that exist is because hospitals have to try to recoup those unrecoverable costs wherever they can. There are two main crises in American health care today: attainability of insurance, and cost. Fixing the former helps with the latter.

This is far from perfect. By no means is it a system that anyone would've put in place from scratch. But, we don't have the luxury of implementing a system from whole cloth. We have to take baby steps, we have to incrementally change things for the greater good, and this is that first big step toward a better society.

Score one for working Americans. Not only does it insure those who cannot afford the system as it exists today, but protects those in possible danger of losing either their job or their coverage in the future. Score one for women, no longer blatantly discriminated against by denying maternity coverage. Score one for anyone with a pre-existing condition: no longer will you be denied because it looks bad on some asshole's balance sheet. Decency and profitability are sometimes at odds, and private under-regulated health insurance often illustrates this in cruel ways. This decision, for all but the extreme minority who have the liquid assets to weather the costs of any medical disaster, is in your favor.

Who is it this decision against? Hard to say, except for those who stand in opposition of any sort of reform that benefits those with less. They could counter the criticism with their own vision, but they don't. They trash this reform, calling it "socialist", trotting out their death panel bullshit, and protecting capitalism at the expense of the growing millions that capitalism is trampling all over. The Bain Capital crowd doesn't give a fuck about the rest of us, that much is clear. And any attempt to shore up those in need in any concrete way is naturally attacked with the full rhetorical arsenal of conservatives. They have no alternative plan to sell because they don't care. If they did, they'd be out there selling it. Which means, they have no concern for those without insurance, or without jobs, or those with jobs whose employers fail to provide benefits. They can cloak it in their Rand-infused "power of human ambition" government-is-evil claptrap, but it's really the same old cruel, amoral sink-or-swim attitude. What's amazing to me though, is the number of people who are vulnerable, and potentially in need of these safety-net provisions, who spew the most venomously against them.

What an amazing swindle the Republicans have sold to so many people, on health care and other issues as well, yet, as stated, some of the criticism holds water. This does not solve the problem of vanishing Medicare provider choices, which is rooted in mandated cost caps. More total money is needed, and yes, that money will at least partially come from taxes. All a low-tax solution will give us is the same thing it's been giving us so far: decreasing choices for the insured (even in the best private policies), and financial ruin (at best) and care denial and neglect (at worst) for the uninsured. Status quo is unacceptable and inhumane.

The first thing a decent society does it right the wrong in the name of decency and kindness, then you go to work to fix the kinks. Unfortunately, for some, this very act of decency was beyond the pale. Shame on you who fit this description. May you never be in the position to fall through the very cracks that you wish to widen through your hair-brained, wealth and power-abetting view of government. May you never struggle to get your child the care he needs, followed by an absolutely unpayable debt for care that was already two notches below those with preferred private insurance.

May you never need assistance from the very government you hate so much, but if you ever do, let's hope your own values haven't infiltrated to the point that the needed assistance is no longer available.

So I celebrate this minor victory that can hopefully be built upon, while others seek to tear it apart. I don't know what sort of country my child will grow up in. The attitudes around are frankly scary.

Buz
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:24:23 PM

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Posts: 5,176
Location: Atlanta, United States
If it were a good plan I might actually support it. I think it is a boondoggle which is going to be one very expensive mess that does not solve health care issues for the poor and will make things much worse for the middle class. This health care plan will not have any effect on health care for the rich, nor will it for the president, his family, nor members of the US Congress, all of whom have an outstanding health care plan paid for by US taxpayers. They are not subject to this plan. if they had been, we'd have a bill worth supporting. Someone should've added that stipulation.

You all should actually read the plan, or part of it, it is thousands of pages. If you are unemployed and cannot pay your government health premium and lose coverage you face stiff fines. That part of the Obama plan and many parts of this bill should have been eliminated but aren't.

There needs to be major health care reform but this is a mess that needs a major overhaul.

I still believe that it is unconstitutional, but then again so is income tax. That didn't even get a ruling.

I have written a new poem. It is called 'Long Twisty Woman.'
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Also, if you wish, check out my co-authored a story with the wonderful DanielleX. It is called 'Focus on Sex.'
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Rembacher
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2012 3:34:28 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,101
Buz wrote:
If it were a good plan I might actually support it. I think it is a boondoggle which is going to be one very expensive mess that does not solve health care issues for the poor and will make things much worse for the middle class. This health care plan will not have any effect on health care for the rich, nor will it for the president, his family, nor members of the US Congress, all of whom have an outstanding health care plan paid for by US taxpayers. They are not subject to this plan. if they had been, we'd have a bill worth supporting. Someone should've added that stipulation.

You all should actually read the plan, or part of it, it is thousands of pages. If you are unemployed and cannot pay your government health premium and lose coverage you face stiff fines. That part of the Obama plan and many parts of this bill should have been eliminated but aren't.


It was my understanding that this was a bill designed to help the lower end of the spectrum, and didn't include the rich, and congress because they have no trouble finding health insurance. How do you include those elite categories with the lower categories unless you move to a universal health insurance? What would you do instead of this plan? It's easy to pick at the bad parts, the parts that need improvement in the future, but I haven't seen you post a better solution to the problem.
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