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Judge orders taxpayer funded male to female sex change for inmate Options · View
lafayettemister
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 7:15:41 AM

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Robert/Michelle Kosilek

BOSTON (AP) — A federal judge on Tuesday ordered state prison officials to provide a taxpayer-funded sex-reassignment surgery to a transgender inmate serving life in prison for murder.

U.S. District Judge Mark Wolf ruled in the case of Michelle Kosilek, who was born as a man but has received hormone treatments and lives as a woman in an all-male prison. Robert Kosilek was convicted of murder in the killing of his wife in 1990.

Wolf is believed to be the first federal judge to order prison officials to provide the surgery for a transgender inmate.

Kosilek first sued the Massachusetts Department of Correction 12 years ago. Two years later, Wolf ruled that Kosilek was entitled to treatment for gender-identity disorder, but stopped short of ordering surgery. Kosilek sued again in 2005, arguing that the surgery is a medical necessity.

In his ruling Tuesday, Wolf found that surgery is the "only adequate treatment" for Kosilek's "serious medical need."

"The court finds that there is no less intrusive means to correct the prolonged violation of Kosilek's Eighth Amendment right to adequate medical care," Wolf wrote in his 126-page ruling.

Prison officials have repeatedly cited security risks in the case, saying that allowing her to have the surgery would make her a target for sexual assaults by other inmates.

But Wolf found that the DOC's security concerns are "either pretextual or can be dealt with by the DOC." He said it is up to prison officials to decide how and where to house Kosilek after the surgery.

==========================

Should taxpayer money be used to provide surgery for Mr. Kosilek's "serious medical need"? Does/should the 8th Amendment to medical care carry over to an inmate choosing/needing a sex change? If Mr. Kosilek becomes Miss Kosilek, where should he be housed? With men where he'll be victim to frequent rape? Even if he has sex willingly, or sells his body to the highest bidder, fair or not? Would it be fair to house her at a female prison where she would still possess the physical stature and strength of a man thus giving her a physical advantage over other women prisoners? If a woman in prison objects to the entire man-to-woman trangendering as a whole, is she entitled to not have to share a cell or shower with someone she considers to be a man?

It's a complicated world we live in.





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She
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 7:35:22 AM

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Mr. Kosilek is convicted murderer. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in second chances, I do believe in provided help for prisoners and yes, I do believe they have rights, some rights that is. As adults we have to live with consequences of our choices, no exceptions, and murderers, rapists, child abusers have zero rights in my book, so your question is, should taxpayer money be spent for his sex exchange? No, not at all. I would even stop giving him hormones, he really doesn't need to have any benefits whatsoever. I don't care if he is unhappy and unfulfilled in his body.

However, if there will be some luck on his side and he will get his surgery, he should, as a woman, be transferred in all women prison. I believe women in jail can take care of their self, I don't think they are in danger because, Mr. become Mrs.
blazestcyr
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:32:39 AM

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i think being convicted of murder....preceeds any other rights for that guy..plus he murdered HIS wife...why does he get to live on as a woman after taking HERS??
notjust4women
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:39:21 AM

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while i think murder is wrong, and could never do that, i might want to go to mass. and commit a crime , so i can have my gender changed for free
elitfromnorth
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 9:01:46 AM

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There has to be a whole lot of extra information that isn't divulged here. Shrink's testemony and a whole lot of other things. In general having people commit crime to get free medical care is stupid, but I can see the pragmatism in not giving health care to prisoners that are sentenced for life without parole. But if a judge ruled in favour of Kosilek then it's not as black and white as the article says it is. There's more. A shitload of other things that haven't been mentioned. If I'm wrong then the commonwealth of massachusets have a really fucked up judicial system and not only needs to be reformed, but revolutionised.

P.S. USA only has 46 states. 4 "states" are actually Commonwealths. Just wanted to say thatevil4

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
1ball
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 9:32:09 AM

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I've got to believe that this ruling is really about the forms of the legal system being followed. I would be willing to bet that testimony from experts, probably mental health experts, was presented that the judge could not reasonably ignore. Federal judges rule on both matters of fact and matters of law. For facts they don't personally know, they have to satisfy themselves that they've become sufficiently informed to rule on them, at the risk of being overruled by higher courts.

So I suspect this judge was convinced that the mental health of this patient for whom the state has custodial responsibility is the the issue. It's just a quirk in the legal system, similar to the quirk that even a death row inmate has a right to life and must be protected from other death row inmates until the state kills him legally through due process.


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She
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 10:28:36 AM

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elitfromnorth wrote:
There has to be a whole lot of extra information that isn't divulged here. Shrink's testemony and a whole lot of other things. In general having people commit crime to get free medical care is stupid, but I can see the pragmatism in not giving health care to prisoners that are sentenced for life without parole. But if a judge ruled in favour of Kosilek then it's not as black and white as the article says it is. There's more. A shitload of other things that haven't been mentioned. If I'm wrong then the commonwealth of massachusets have a really fucked up judicial system and not only needs to be reformed, but revolutionised.

P.S. USA only has 46 states. 4 "states" are actually Commonwealths. Just wanted to say thatevil4


True, however don't you think that there is a whole a lot wrong with Kosilek and no shrink can resolve his problems. He killed a person for fuck sake, of course that he has issues, I just don't think taxpaying people should care for him and his emotional problems. Not now, not after convincing such a big crime. However I wonder what would it be and how would it end, if society would be sensible for people like Kosiek and what can we do before they reach out and become aggressive towards others or themselves.
1ball
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:44:00 PM

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She wrote:
True, however don't you think that there is a whole a lot wrong with Kosilek and no shrink can resolve his problems. He killed a person for fuck sake, of course that he has issues, I just don't think taxpaying people should care for him and his emotional problems. Not now, not after convincing such a big crime. However I wonder what would it be and how would it end, if society would be sensible for people like Kosiek and what can we do before they reach out and become aggressive towards others or themselves.


Earlier courts have ruled that, since we are depriving convicts of their right to liberty (albeit with cause) it would be cruel and unusual punishment, and thus a violation of their 8th Amendment rights, to deny them reasonable medical care. So now courts have to rule on what "reasonable" means unless the Constitution is changed in a way to exclude what a judge might call reasonable. Heart transplants, sex changes, etc. would have to be ruled unreasonable before they could be denied. The taxpayers have to foot the bill for whatever the judge doesn't rule against, regardless of whether the sentence is short or long.

The chance to castrate the guy would probably be seen as desirable by a lot of people, but I can see this eventually leading to a parole hearing on the basis of "the woman in prison is no longer the testosterone-poisoned man that was convicted". Watch for it.



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elitfromnorth
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 1:04:17 PM

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She wrote:


True, however don't you think that there is a whole a lot wrong with Kosilek and no shrink can resolve his problems. He killed a person for fuck sake, of course that he has issues, I just don't think taxpaying people should care for him and his emotional problems. Not now, not after convincing such a big crime. However I wonder what would it be and how would it end, if society would be sensible for people like Kosiek and what can we do before they reach out and become aggressive towards others or themselves.


I admit. I'm an idiot. I've read through that line that I bolded out and I honestly can't see what you're saying. I feel like an idiot nowEmbarassed

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
She
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 1:41:32 PM

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1ball wrote:


Earlier courts have ruled that, since we are depriving convicts of their right to liberty (albeit with cause) it would be cruel and unusual punishment, and thus a violation of their 8th Amendment rights, to deny them reasonable medical care. So now courts have to rule on what "reasonable" means unless the Constitution is changed in a way to exclude what a judge might call reasonable. Heart transplants, sex changes, etc. would have to be ruled unreasonable before they could be denied. The taxpayers have to foot the bill for whatever the judge doesn't rule against, regardless of whether the sentence is short or long.

The chance to castrate the guy would probably be seen as desirable by a lot of people, but I can see this eventually leading to a parole hearing on the basis of "the woman in prison is no longer the testosterone-poisoned man that was convicted". Watch for it.



As far as law goes, hey, I cannot overrule that. In my origin country the higher conviction is 7 years. And that goes for murderers, child abusers and rapists as well (we don't have much crime, but still, what kind of a law is that!??!)
I completely understand that courts have ruled so it would be best for majority (I do hope so) however, in my personal opinion is statement above. For such a huge crime as it is murder, I have no sympathy.
She
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 2:00:05 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:


I admit. I'm an idiot. I've read through that line that I bolded out and I honestly can't see what you're saying. I feel like an idiot nowEmbarassed


You are not an idiot, at least I cannot say it in here, heheh, although I have weird week when it comes to understanding English or expressing myself.. However not sure if you have just bad week or, lol, just teasing you, don't take it harshly.

In post above, I was wondering if we, as society, could do something to prevent such a crime as murder. Typing this now, realizing how naive that is, however if, lets say, I have dark and depressed neighbor and if I would pay more attention to her, give her more my time, maybe she wouldn't try to commit suicide.. or if in primary and high school educators would be a bit more psychologists as well, maybe they could prevent damage and discover that kid (that is potential aggressor) has physical problems that can be solved..

Better? I was trying to give simple examples in my English..
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1ball
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 2:02:54 PM

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She wrote:
As far as law goes, hey, I cannot overrule that. In my origin country the higher conviction is 7 years. And that goes for murderers, child abusers and rapists as well (we don't have much crime, but still, what kind of a law is that!??!)


Here in the US, a lot of people would kill someone who was convicted of rape or crimes against children if the penalty for doing so was only 7 years, unless the prisons were so bad that 7 years would be a death sentence.

Quote:
I completely understand that courts have ruled so it would be best for majority (I do hope so) however, in my personal opinion is statement above. For such a huge crime as it is murder, I have no sympathy.


That cruel and unusual thing is not for what would be best for the majority. The basic standard is that the punishment has to fit the crime. A simple traffic violation should not result in an on-the-spot execution no matter how good that might be for the majority. Some sort of calculation is used to set penalties, but the public perception can shift. Harsh penalties for drug use and sale were popular for a while. Now, they've fallen out of favor. I think life sentences for murder are standard.

And everybody who acts like this guy might get raped after the sex change seems to be ignoring the fact that he might be getting raped now.


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Ariel21
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:05:30 PM

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I dont think this is acceptable. I have a question, does he move to the womens jail if he changes??
1ball
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:22:48 PM

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Ariel21 wrote:
I dont think this is acceptable. I have a question, does he move to the womens jail if he changes??


The judge left that up to the prison system to determine. If a post-op transsexual who was convicted of a crime would go to a womens prison, then probably. But having been convicted of killing his wife, I would think he might want to take his chances with the men.

My latest story is too hot to publish. My most recent story before that is Even Stranger In Lust
elitfromnorth
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 6:04:41 PM

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She wrote:


You are not an idiot, at least I cannot say it in here, heheh, although I have weird week when it comes to understanding English or expressing myself.. However not sure if you have just bad week or, lol, just teasing you, don't take it harshly.

In post above, I was wondering if we, as society, could do something to prevent such a crime as murder. Typing this now, realizing how naive that is, however if, lets say, I have dark and depressed neighbor and if I would pay more attention to her, give her more my time, maybe she wouldn't try to commit suicide.. or if in primary and high school educators would be a bit more psychologists as well, maybe they could prevent damage and discover that kid (that is potential aggressor) has physical problems that can be solved..

Better? I was trying to give simple examples in my English..
We are open 24/7 for any further info leave message to the machine toast


Thank you for making your view understandable! I wanna Hugs for that.

And I dunno about the statistics, but I'm quite sure that a lot of the murders aren't premeditated. Those you can't do anything about because it just happens there and then, and I think it could happen to a lot of people. And there are so many serial killers where all the neighbours go "He was the last person I'd think would kill and torture 12 people." Appearances can be deceptive and not everyone are shrinks. And some develop symptoms after school, so even if you managed to have teachers that are shrinks then you wouldn't catch everyone. I doubt you'd catch that many. It's a nice thought though, but I think there are things we'd have more luck at preventinghappy8

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Ryario_Darkstar
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:21:26 PM

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I gotta only one response to that....

Thats it im outta here.... (car schreeching and speeding off)
Buz
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:23:02 PM

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The government is incompetent! They steal my tax money and do stupid things with it!

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from
wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

— Thomas Jefferson. 3rd president of the United States, Author of the Declaration of Independence



1ball
Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 10:48:06 PM

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Buz wrote:
The government is incompetent! They steal my tax money and do stupid things with it!


Not to worry on this one. Massachusetts will get stuck with that bill.


My latest story is too hot to publish. My most recent story before that is Even Stranger In Lust
She
Posted: Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:17:20 AM

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1ball wrote:

Here in the US, a lot of people would kill someone who was convicted of rape or crimes against children if the penalty for doing so was only 7 years, unless the prisons were so bad that 7 years would be a death sentence.


Yup, I hear that.

1ball wrote:
That cruel and unusual thing is not for what would be best for the majority. The basic standard is that the punishment has to fit the crime. A simple traffic violation should not result in an on-the-spot execution no matter how good that might be for the majority. Some sort of calculation is used to set penalties, but the public perception can shift. Harsh penalties for drug use and sale were popular for a while. Now, they've fallen out of favor. I think life sentences for murder are standard.


Yes exactly, punishment must fit the crime, but it is rare that every crime (in this case, every murder)is the same, so that is why I said that court ruled laws that will suit for majority of cases. That's why we have wholes in law and with good attorney you can get away with your crime. But than again, I am really layman in law, these are just my observations.

And what cruel and unusual thing? I didn't get that.

1ball wrote:
And everybody who acts like this guy might get raped after the sex change seems to be ignoring the fact that he might be getting raped now.

I don't care about him, not after committing such a crime, maybe before, if I would know him and be aware of his emotional and mental problems I would have sympathy for him, but now, I really do not care what is going to happen with him.
1ball
Posted: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:27:27 AM

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She wrote:
And what cruel and unusual thing? I didn't get that.


"Cruel and unusual" is the standard that "the punishment must fit the crime" is measured against. In many states here there is a "verdict phase" of a trial by jury. If they get a conviction, then the same jury hears the "penalty phase" of the trial where the adversaries argue for a light sentence or a long sentence. The judge takes the jury's sentencing recommendation into account when deciding the sentence, within the guidelines established by law which set the mandatory minimum and maximum sentences.

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Dani
Posted: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:45:10 AM

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No....hell no. That's all I have to say on the subject.



Baby put your arms around me, tell me I'm a problem...

Ruthie
Posted: Friday, September 07, 2012 9:12:12 PM

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I'm sure that this ruling will be appealed. I can't understand why the judge would have made this ruling. Kosilek is serving a life sentence for murder. What difference does it make if he serves it as a man or a woman? Why did her receive hormone treatments to begin with? It may be catty of me, but I don't think he makes a very attractive woman. If he wants to live his life as a woman that's fine with me. He needs to learn to do something with makeup though. He's the only person I've ever known who looked more masculine after hormone therapy than before.

MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, September 07, 2012 9:25:44 PM

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I just want to know: If I'm ever convicted, can I tell them I'm a woman trapped in a man's body and spend my sentence in a woman's prison? I'm sure they's just loads and loads of willing lady prisoners...

Ruthie
Posted: Friday, September 07, 2012 10:13:35 PM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
I just want to know: If I'm ever convicted, can I tell them I'm a woman trapped in a man's body and spend my sentence in a woman's prison? I'm sure they's just loads and loads of willing lady prisoners...


It would be heartless and cruel to put you in a prison for men. Be sure to refuse the hormone treatments though. Tell them that you deserve to be punished for your crimes and kept away from men, but you don't want to burden the taxpayer with the cost of your hormones and operation. Otherwise you might end up very popular in the men's prison instead.
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