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Religion, Bad or Good? Options · View
nazhinaz
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 10:40:34 AM

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Jenni wrote:
Good people will do good things
Bad people will do bad things
Religion makes good people do bad things

I would say religion makes people mind blunt and does not allow them to think free and move forward.
lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:28:18 AM

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nazhinaz wrote:

I would say religion makes people mind blunt and does not allow them to think free and move forward.


Generalize much?

Religion makes people's minds blunt and not able of free thought or moving forward? Really.

JRR Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, Bob Dylan, George Washington Carver, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Wright Brothers, Fredric Handel.... to name just a few religious people. Imagine what the could have accomplished if their minds weren't held back by religion. Eh?





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Magical_felix
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:37:54 PM

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Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,913
Location: California
lafayettemister wrote:


Generalize much?

Religion makes people's minds blunt and not able of free thought or moving forward? Really.

JRR Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, Bob Dylan, George Washington Carver, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Wright Brothers, Fredric Handel.... to name just a few religious people. Imagine what the could have accomplished if their minds weren't held back by religion. Eh?


Not saying religion is good or bad.... But for every person you mentioned above there are evil people that had religion too, probably more... Like Osama bin laden, Idi Amin, Adolf hitler, charles manson, the tribunal of the holy office of the inquisition, pedophile priests, Vlad the Impaler, david berkowitz... Lots of killing in the name of god in history and present day. More than anything else in history probably. To be honest, you can probably look up more people that have killed in the name of god than have created art or made a breakthrough scientific discovery in the name of god.

Just saying.

It sounded good though, at the end there.



principessa
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:52:10 PM

Rank: Sophisticate

Joined: 8/23/2011
Posts: 4,306
Location: Canada
I do not object to religion, just any form of it that is extreme whatever the denomination. I object to Muslims like the Taliban who recently shot a young girl for going to school and encouraging other girls to do the same, I object to Catholics imposing their views on abortion, birth control and other issues on the rest of us, I object to Orthodox Judaism and any other religion that holds women in a less than equal status. I object to born-again Protestant evangelicals for their influence on the politics of the US, which is supposed to be a democracy not a theocracy.

I object to any religion that is used as a reason to abuse or kill and any creed that says I am less or eternally damned if I am not a member.

If your faith gives you comfort and solace, good for you. But if its institutions do any of the above things, it is not a force for good in the world.

lafayettemister
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 1:26:21 PM

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Location: Alabama, United States
nazhinaz wrote:

Wish Religion was a knife to chop onions.
But it has always been a knife to chop heads of those who don't subscribe to that religion.


nazhinaz wrote:

I would say religion makes people mind blunt and does not allow them to think free and move forward.


Magical_felix wrote:


Not saying religion is good or bad.... But for every person you mentioned above there are evil people that had religion too, probably more... Like Osama bin laden, Idi Amin, Adolf hitler, charles manson, the tribunal of the holy office of the inquisition, pedophile priests, Vlad the Impaler, david berkowitz... Lots of killing in the name of god in history and present day. More than anything else in history probably. To be honest, you can probably look up more people that have killed in the name of god than have created art or made a breakthrough scientific discovery in the name of god.

Just saying.

It sounded good though, at the end there.


I agree, there are good and evil people. My objection is to the absolutes that Naz is speaking. That religion and religious people as a whole chop off the heads of nonbelievers and that religious minded people have blunt minds unable of free thought. Some religious people, yes. Most, doubtful. But the poeple with blunt and restrictive minds would have blunt restrictive minds with or without religion.

I'm sure there are lots of famous or imfamous people that have killed in the name of god. But there are billions of Christians, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists that are unnamed and unknown that have never hurt anyone. But I understand your point. The people I mentioned may not have made a breakthrough in the name of god. They're just people who made breakthroughs who happened to beleive in god.

I'm rambling. Not all religious people are blunt and stupid sheeple is what I'm trying to say.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
MindsEye
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:39:36 PM

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Location: Canada
Love God hate churches in all their man made forms
nazhinaz
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:02:10 AM

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Joined: 1/16/2010
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Location: Longview, United States
lafayettemister wrote:


Generalize much?

Religion makes people's minds blunt and not able of free thought or moving forward? Really.

JRR Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, Bob Dylan, George Washington Carver, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Wright Brothers, Fredric Handel.... to name just a few religious people. Imagine what the could have accomplished if their minds weren't held back by religion. Eh?

Albert Einstein was religious?
A news for me.
Let's not debate about the faith of politicians.
Politicians are after all politicians. They can play politics with religion and even with god.
nazhinaz
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:16:41 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


I agree, there are good and evil people. My objection is to the absolutes that Naz is speaking. That religion and religious people as a whole chop off the heads of nonbelievers and that religious minded people have blunt minds unable of free thought. Some religious people, yes. Most, doubtful. But the poeple with blunt and restrictive minds would have blunt restrictive minds with or without religion.

I'm sure there are lots of famous or imfamous people that have killed in the name of god. But there are billions of Christians, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists that are unnamed and unknown that have never hurt anyone. But I understand your point. The people I mentioned may not have made a breakthrough in the name of god. They're just people who made breakthroughs who happened to beleive in god.

I'm rambling. Not all religious people are blunt and stupid sheeple is what I'm trying to say.


If someone had followed the thread and my earlier arguments, he would come to the following conclusion.
Concisely my understanding and knowledge has driven me to the a conclusion that religion was a good institution when man did not fully comprehend the proceess of advancing knowledge. Man had no option but to believe there is a supernatural force or being that has created this World and Universe and He runs and administer this World, moon, stars, Sun etc.
THAT BELIEF DID RESTRICTS MANKIND TO SEARCH NEW KNOWLEDGE AS HE FELT HE ALREADY HAS ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE FROM GOD.
Now that the mankind is well equipped with the engines of new knowledge and knows how to advance knowledge;
Religion as an Institution has become redundant and obsolete.
It is just like an Appendix in the body of a man which has no utility but can cause extreme pain and endanger life at times.
It is therefore that sooner the mankind can get over this restrictive institution, the better for the further advancement of collective human knowledge.
lafayettemister
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:42:23 AM

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nazhinaz wrote:


If someone had followed the thread and my earlier arguments, he would come to the following conclusion.
Concisely my understanding and knowledge has driven me to the a conclusion that religion was a good institution when man did not fully comprehend the proceess of advancing knowledge. Man had no option but to believe there is a supernatural force or being that has created this World and Universe and He runs and administer this World, moon, stars, Sun etc.
THAT BELIEF DID RESTRICTS MANKIND TO SEARCH NEW KNOWLEDGE AS HE FELT HE ALREADY HAS ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE FROM GOD.
Now that the mankind is well equipped with the engines of new knowledge and knows how to advance knowledge;
Religion as an Institution has become redundant and obsolete.
It is just like an Appendix in the body of a man which has no utility but can cause extreme pain and endanger life at times.
It is therefore that sooner the mankind can get over this restrictive institution, the better for the further advancement of collective human knowledge.


Poppycock

All the men listed above searched for new knowledge. All religious people of the past didn't sit around on the porch like zombies with drool sliding out of their pieholes with vacant minds because "God" had given them absolute knowledge which allowed them to not have to think. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. I don't know of any biblical or other religious text that says believe in god and you'll have absolute knowledge. Give me a break.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 8:46:52 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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No, but they do intend to infer. Just enough to keep you hooked.

Psalm 139

You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand—
when I awake, I am still with you.
19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

nazhinaz
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 10:40:25 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


Poppycock

All the men listed above searched for new knowledge. All religious people of the past didn't sit around on the porch like zombies with drool sliding out of their pieholes with vacant minds because "God" had given them absolute knowledge which allowed them to not have to think. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. I don't know of any biblical or other religious text that says believe in god and you'll have absolute knowledge. Give me a break.

I believe you got a responce.
lafayettemister
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 10:49:18 AM

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Psalms are poems written by a man. They are not the word of god. That verse does not say that man has absolute knowledge from God. It doesn't say that religious minded people are incapable of furthering their minds because god has given them all knowing omnipotent knowledge. King David wrote the Psalms and was not speaking on behalf of god, but of himself. Nor is he directing believers to abandon free thought or pursuit of knowledge. The knowledge David is speaking about in that verse is the knowledge of every thought, waking, and thought of man.. a god like knowledge. Not learning and growing mentally as a person.

I stand by my statements, Religious minded people are not idiots strictly because they're religious minded people.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Magical_felix
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2012 11:29:29 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 4,913
Location: California
lafayettemister wrote:

Religious minded people are not idiots strictly because they're religious minded people.


That may be so. But idiots do tend to gravitate toward certain things. Like wrestling. The wrestling doesn't make them idiots, it just brings them together.

I kid.

But to be honest, you're not making a strong case for religious people not being idiots. I mean you're arguing with kurt over there talking about chopping onions n such. Like why?

Just some food for thought.



nazhinaz
Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:08:09 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


Poppycock

All the men listed above searched for new knowledge. All religious people of the past didn't sit around on the porch like zombies with drool sliding out of their pieholes with vacant minds because "God" had given them absolute knowledge which allowed them to not have to think. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. I don't know of any biblical or other religious text that says believe in god and you'll have absolute knowledge. Give me a break.


I fail to understand why an intellectual discussion and debate invites people to falsify others arguments or stand?
If you cared to read or rather re-read my arguments, especially the one that has been highlighted by making it bold, it reads:
THAT BELIEF DID RESTRICTS MANKIND TO SEARCH NEW KNOWLEDGE AS HE FELT HE ALREADY HAS ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE FROM GOD.
That word MANKIND is used for collective mindset, not for exceptional minds that did break the shackles and went for advancing secular knowledge.
Religion has been a restrictive instrument or tool for advancing secular mandane knowledge.
If we, the Mankind had no barrier breakers, surely there would have been no advancement in secular human knowledge which is the KNOWLEDGE.
One can be religious but should not be falsifier of others arguments as it amounts to intellectula distortion and that too willfull.
crazydiamond
Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:46:22 PM

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Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:35:01 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Today I overheard the phrase: "Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs," and I realized how much I disagree with it.

I would say everyone has a responsibility to ascertain the truth.
Guest
Posted: Monday, October 15, 2012 7:55:22 PM

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Nice question. In my eyes religion can be anything... I dont force what i believe on any one so in my mind no one else should shove theirs down mine. I think as long theres something you believe in thats something right there. Im open to listen to what others believe in...but dont say im wrong cause I dont think what other people believe in is wrong. Everyone has different beliefs and they are entitled to it. It never fails that no matter what...theres always "that person" who believes in whatever they believe in and thats the only thing that exists and everyone else who doesnt agree with them is wrong. I hate that! Not even open enough to listen to someone elses thoughts. Oooooohh i could go on but i dont want to ramble anymore! Lol! all in all..religon or whatever you believe in is what you make it. And if your buddha...catholic...luthern...wiccan....or no religon at all...even if I dont agree with it...it doesnt matter cause thats what YOU believe in.
Hubs_in_hose
Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:20:51 AM

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Joined: 10/10/2012
Posts: 4
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lafayettemister wrote:


Generalize much?

Religion makes people's minds blunt and not able of free thought or moving forward? Really.

JRR Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, Bob Dylan, George Washington Carver, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Wright Brothers, Fredric Handel.... to name just a few religious people. Imagine what the could have accomplished if their minds weren't held back by religion. Eh?


Einstein did not believe in organized religion. He even said " I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

C.S. Lewis was a devout Atheist until he converted to the Church of England for his friend JRR Tolkien.
nazhinaz
Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:11:17 AM

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Hubs_in_hose wrote:


Einstein did not believe in organized religion. He even said " I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

C.S. Lewis was a devout Atheist until he converted to the Church of England for his friend JRR Tolkien.

Can this statement of Einstein by any means be taken as religious?
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:06:35 PM

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1ball wrote:
Then there's Jimmy Jones in Guyana and his grape KoolAid. He gets credit for the "drank the KoolAid" saying for the faith of political partisans.

The reason this makes religions with preachers automatically suspect is because the followers of religions that rely on authority figures turn over control of their minds or their wills or their actions or something to the authority figures. Religion has been called 'the opiate of the masses' because it both subverts the believer's will and addicts them to control by the supplier.


Not to pick on you specifically, but I just noticed this long assumed fallacy repeated yet again, on yet another website's webpage. This is what happens when we read anything we find in the main stream media, be it in print of a newspaper or news magazine we look to for authoritative and correct news - or from any of the television networks which merely spew the same stories.

There are many who believe that Jim Jones and his cult in Guyana were in fact a CIA sponsored mind control project. There is plenty of evidence for this and there are the facts alleged and reported in the previous link...and here ... which never made it to mainstream media Hearst controlled newspapers, VIACOM controlled television programs (or their oligarchical contemporaries).

Evidences of CIA MK Ultra programs. With Guyana and then with Waco & Koresh, there is much more behind the curtain than merely religious cults gone around the bend. Religious cults and specific mentions of fanaticism make for great cover - they are very easy to demonize. (see Taliban/Bin Laden/911/eleven years of war profiteering) But don't pay any attention to the fact that Vice President Cheney was negotiating with the Taliban during the spring & summer of 2001. Before that, the Clinton administration had been negotiating with the Taliban - since 1997!

On a related point, we've all seen the Jason Bourne movies. What does anyone think Ludlum was writing about, with that character? Mind control is not a fictional fantasy.

This is a fucked up world we all live in. Can't blame it all on the influences of one organized religion or any others. Many of those religions do make excellent patsies, however.





If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
FelineFantasy
Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:30:33 PM

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I grew up in a Christian home, I wouldn't classify myself as religious per se- more so spiritual.. but I definitely would give credit to who I am because of my upbringing. I still stay true to my roots, and believe very much so.. but I don't condone shoving my beliefs down anyone's throat. I don't think that's a crime if people find their purpose or become grounded through religion, so long as they make good changes for themselves and their lives and don't spend their days chastising others with opposing belief systems.

Click > here < to read my first feature story, Techno Aphrodite by Piquet!
seeker4
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:15:30 PM

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Joined: 10/17/2012
Posts: 3,588
Location: Gone walkabout, Canada
There's religion and then there's religion

Religion as a self-perpetuating institution devoted to propagating a particular, often exclusivist, understanding of existence is bad.

Religion as a community for exploring one's relationship to what is and to each other and for promoting the value of such relationships is good.

Put another way, I'm against religion that is about pushing a faith on you but I'm for religion that promote exploration and development of faith on an individual level and that recognizes that faith isn't a "one size fits all" proposition.

I've kind of eased out of religious community at the moment, but I grew up as a fairly liberal Christian and am nominally Unitarian Universalist at present.


Stories that satisfy about people seeking satisfaction

Satisfaction in the Park

Satisfaction in the Library
joebackagain
Posted: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:06:08 PM

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Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 757
nazhinaz wrote:

Can this statement of Einstein by any means be taken as religious?


While i wish to stay fairly removed from this conversation, I just wish to say that this notion of quoting...from both sides of the fence is oh so very petty. To take one quote, or to take one piece of scripture, for or against religion, is not a fair assessment of the person or the scripture. Unless the person themselves is able to present their own beliefs then we have no business paraphrasing their lives to suit our arguments. Because I have said something at one point in my life does not make that something to judge my entire belief system by.
How about we keep the points to our own judgement, without bringing our atheist, or religious "friends" as proof. Regardless of who you are, your beliefs are as mine, beliefs, lacking in proof either way, so why argue as though we are certain when we are not?

TrishL31
Posted: Saturday, October 27, 2012 9:23:50 PM

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Location: Manhattan, United States
Han135 wrote:
Ok I'm truly just curious as to what's people's opinion on this subject is, I'm not trying to patronize you religious folks out there. In the past there had been many lives taken in the name of God, but I also know very kind people who are religious. So I'm asking you, is religion bad, good, or in the middle?



The short answer is "both" :)
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:59:42 PM

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We may not be able to point at one religion as a patsy, but looking at the different patsies, we can extrapolate much.

Green_Man
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2012 8:31:31 PM

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Religion has been the bane of the civilized world.

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ByronLord
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2012 9:14:16 PM

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I object to priests and to politicians who argue from religion.

The idea that God would require any form of intermediary is just stupid, let alone the corrupt sexual deviants that are regularly exposed as such. They make a living from a form of advance fee fraud, people give them money now in the hope of gains in the hereafter. Well thats been a nice racket for the priests of pagan Rome and the Mayan priests who hacked out people's hearts and so on. Is there any particular reason other than social pressure not to lump in the Ayatollahs, Popes and so on in with that crowd?

But right now the movement that is driving atheism in the US is the Republican party and its alliance with the Christian right. They portray a view of religion many find entirely repellent. They are ignorant and bigoted telling people who can't marry whom, telling people they are sinners. They make a huge fuss about abortion but are silent on the death penalty. They ignore the social issues at the heart of the Christian gospels - social issues like poverty.

Problem is that not enough people in the Protestant churches pushed back against this movement and now the church is suffering because a handful of politicians saw a crafty way to make personal political gain.

An increasing number of people are rejecting the church because they cannot believe in the image of God that the political church advances.

Which is actually why the US has a separation clause in the bill of rights. The point was also to protect the church against corruption by the state as had rather clearly happened with the Church of England.

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 9:10:32 AM

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Religion can be a good thing, but most of the time people will take it and twist it into something terrible. It's just so crazy to me how you believe in God and follow his word, but oppress others...kill others...put down others...HATE others! I think many religious people miss the BIG picture. I believe it's mainly because they don't use their BRAINS...critical thinking skills.

They are told WHAT to think instead of taught HOW to think. They listen to their religious leaders or grew up listening to their parents w/o questioning it. Which can be VERY dangerous. They never think "is this what I really believe, or is this what I'm TOLD to believe" or "is this all true...false..in the middle?" To me the bible makes many contradictons, so it could be confusing to anyone that really wants to follow the religion and take it seriously.

I think its fine to question things...afterall God didn't write the bible he just inspired it, and I think those who wrote it got some of it wrong ;)
Mazza
Posted: Thursday, November 01, 2012 5:23:17 PM

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Very briefly (because I could talk about this at great length)...


I think that religion has/had its place (I personally am not religious)

What I tell my children is that religion is/was a way of teaching people moral values and educating them (to a degree) particularly before there was general "education". However, in my opinion it quickly became a way of controlling and brainwashing people in order to get them to conform to societal norms and discourage them from thinking for themselves. Is that really so very different from media/politics/schooling etc etc etc? I personally don't think so.

The sheeple will always look to their peers/betters/mentors for guidance...

Standing out from the crowd, having one's own voice and opinion is not always easy, but so worth it...

I don't tell my kids what to think, rather give them the facts as best I can so that they can make up their own minds...
_mal_
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 9:19:40 PM

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People are good or bad.

No matter what anyone thinks, humans read their own bias into religion.

So, if a person is horrible, they're going to read that horrible shit into their religion and probably try to press that horrible shit on to other people. Water seeks it's own level.

Likewise, if someone is a loving, tolerant, and inclusive person, they will probably express their religion in a loving, tolerant, and inclusive way.
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