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Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 7:32:01 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
Homage to My Hips by Lucille Clifton

these hips are big hips.
they need space to
move around in.
they don't fit into little
petty places. these hips
are free hips.
they don't like to be held back.
these hips have never been enslaved,
they go where they want to go
they do what they want to do.
these hips are mighty hips.
these hips are magic hips.
i have known them
to put a spell on a man and
spin him like a top


So I just had to write a paper about this poem for my literature class. What are your thoughts about it? Is there a way to twist this to back up a feminist/anti-femisit point of view?

I just wrote how this poem does a disgrace to women. It emasculates males and that is not a woman's natural place. (don't get offended, it was an assignment for class.) I'd just like to see what lush has to say.

Also not sure if this is the right forum to post this in
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 7:58:22 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,298
Location: West Coast
Just to be clear... are you saying your assignment is to argue against the sentiments expressed in the poem?

Is it an anti-feminism class? Or a debate class that's using literature as device to argue sides?

I honestly have a difficult time coming up with anything negative to argue on it that doesn't pander to misogyny. I don't think it emasculates men. Rather I think it celebrates the right of a woman to exercise her freedom and independence (in the way she chooses to). Personally, for me, I don't see an opposite side to this poem that can be argued in a positive/modern light. That's a tough assignment if that's what they're expecting you to do.




overmykneenow
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 9:56:36 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2010
Posts: 1,024
Location: United Kingdom
I guess the easiest twist would be if I had written an almost identical poem called "Homage to My Balls", I would rightly come across as a misogynist with a huge ego.

The argument (albeit very weak in my eyes) in this case would be that women can be lauded for these sentiments however men would be derided - where is the equality? This the same lame argument put about by those damaged souls who like to talk about "men's rights".



Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

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Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 10:14:46 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,298
Location: West Coast
overmykneenow wrote:
"Homage to My Balls"



You need to write this poem. :)


MoonlightSerenity
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 2:58:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/7/2012
Posts: 854
Location: United Kingdom
Dancing_Doll wrote:


You need to write this poem. :)


And he needs to let us all see it once he's written it.....

Teased and Tormented -My very first story and competition entry is now up!
crazydiamond
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 3:20:41 PM

Rank: Clever Gem

Joined: 7/17/2011
Posts: 2,286
Location: Exactly where I should be!, Canada
overmykneenow wrote:
"Homage to My Balls"


Damn .... I could write "Homage to your balls" if you like!

f-hihi

elitfromnorth
Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 4:29:12 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
Am I too late to join in?

I know fuck all about poems and what they mean and so I'm just gonna lash out and be devil's advocate and find a way to shoot down the last two lines of this poem(which if I remember correctly from my eng lit course is usually the most important bit, but I could be wrong).

"to put a spell on a man and
spin him like a top "

Those lines there seems like she doesn't want to be free and clear of men, to make her own decisions, but it seems more like she wants to move further to be the opressor. Women have been oppressed for long and now it's their turn to "rule". She's gonna use all her skills and qualities to use men in ways that profit her and her friends and that seems to be her only goal. Instead of talking about being free she talks like she is going to become one of "us" in the same way "we" have used them. So instead of being women's liberation and equality she's actually turning it to be more about oppression of men and how it is now her time to take control and abuse her power and through that action she undermines everything about women's equalities. She's not talking about liberation, but she's talking about revolution. It's like reading a poem written by a marxist talking about capitalists.

I could probably go on, but I think I would have written something along those lines if I was to go anti on this poem. Almost forgotten how fun it is to play Devil's Advocate L35

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
overmykneenow
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 12:47:07 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2010
Posts: 1,024
Location: United Kingdom
MoonlightSerenity wrote:


And he needs to let us all see it once he's written it.....


See it or see them?

Dancing_Doll wrote:


You need to write this poem. :)


I would write it but Isaac Hayes beat me to it...



Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

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Guest
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 2:36:56 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
elitfromnorth
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 7:27:49 AM

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Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
True, you could go the shallow way and say she's turning on men simply because she proclaims in the poem that she's big and she doesn't get hit on, so it's time to strike back, although that would probably be considered a less intelligent answer even if it's just as likely to be true. Most poems are born due to personal matters.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:33:21 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,298
Location: West Coast
Lucille Clifton was an african american poet with an ancestral family history heavily involved in black slavery and racial persecution. That's why she's talking about 'enslavement' and round hips. She's conveying strength and freedom.

She's not some WalMart fattie looking for some hapless guy to push her shopping cart of cheetos around because she's pissed that she can't get any nookie.

I know it's devil's advocate play, but just... ugh... the arguments still need substance.
Elit's first post is the only one that really hits on a successful way to argue against the poem. ie. the oppressed, through liberation, now becoming the oppressor due to built up resentment from the past. Liberation provides the opportunity for this, and now she too understands the desire/hunger to have power over others.

It still sucks though. The sentiments of the poem are great, especially because of the author's historical past. I still see it more about freedom than power. But anyways...


Guest
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 3:50:02 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Ravyn
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 5:54:42 PM

Rank: Cock Connoisseur

Joined: 4/26/2010
Posts: 2,090
Location: Bend, United States
SexOnWheels wrote:
big ups to everyone who didnt rip my head off for being a jerk.

You know Dancing its funny how these days EVERYTHING seems to have to be read in reference to the authors background. I got no impression of black struggle, racsism, slavery or enslavement. I took it as a white left leaning woman in her early 40's crack at chick lit.

I have always believed that if an idea, a song, a story or even a movie is good or great on first impression, then I will go back and often find out about the background of its creator and often find a whole other message in the work. Sadly though if my first impression of something is negative i turn away from it and have no interest in who created it or any of its greater message. I guess though, a true critic would view a work he or she might not like, but still go back and reassess the work and spend some time finding out about the creator's background and uncover the actual message the work is trying to convey.

I guess my opinion of the work could be called "simplistic" and "populist", like as if I've paid my admission to the circus and believe that if the show is not mind blowing...its instantly crap!. fair enough, on reflection I agree, arguments require substance...not schoolboyish pomposity. :D

The poem is still stupid if you ask me, even after i now know the background of the author!.




Just because something may not be your thing, does not make it stupid. Simply state is not your thing or don't comment, but honestly there is enough crap in the world without having to act out like that over something we may not be into such as poetry. Just sayin.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 8:27:09 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,298
Location: West Coast
SexOnWheels wrote:
I got no impression of black struggle, racsism, slavery or enslavement. I took it as a white left leaning woman in her early 40's crack at chick lit.


Really? This line in the poem doesn't give you the impression of enslavement?

these hips are free hips.
these hips have never been enslaved,


I had an impression of the author's likely background on first read and then got curious and googled her just to confirm that my initial suspicious were correct.

When I read the word 'enslavement', I automatically think of slavery and its darker connotations. Not the BDSM variety. And definitely not a disgruntled middle-aged white woman.


Guest
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 3:03:13 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
She
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 3:59:22 AM

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Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,160
Location: Europe
Ravyn wrote:



Just because something may not be your thing, does not make it stupid. Simply state is not your thing or don't comment, but honestly there is enough crap in the world without having to act out like that over something we may not be into such as poetry. Just sayin.


and I am just saying that he has the right to his opinion, and if he thinks this is not his cup of tea and that is stupid, he is entitled to do so.
But let me tell you this that you sounds just as judgemental as he did in your eyes.


As far as poem goes and my thoughts about it, have to say that I found it disrespectful in a way that writer is disrespecting herself with this exaggerated feminism. I am not familiar with writer or her background, but reading it as 21.century woman, I would say that she is overdoing it. I have respect for women and feminisem in 70' and 80'. In the 90' feminism reached ugly phrase and in 21.century it is not needed. So this poem leaves me with bad taste and it's cry for being loved, respected, demanding it from someone else is just doesn't make sense to me and I found that rather pathetic. 21.century woman doesn't need other people's approval in a way writer demands.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 6:02:58 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
SlavePrincess wrote:
Homage to My Hips by Lucille Clifton

these hips are big hips.
they need space to
move around in.
they don't fit into little
petty places. these hips
are free hips.
they don't like to be held back.
these hips have never been enslaved,
they go where they want to go
they do what they want to do.
these hips are mighty hips.
these hips are magic hips.
i have known them
to put a spell on a man and
spin him like a top


So I just had to write a paper about this poem for my literature class. What are your thoughts about it? Is there a way to twist this to back up a feminist/anti-femisit point of view?

I just wrote how this poem does a disgrace to women. It emasculates males and that is not a woman's natural place. (don't get offended, it was an assignment for class.) I'd just like to see what lush has to say.

Also not sure if this is the right forum to post this in


To begin with I'd like to say that we all as human beings see things or don't see things in literature, movies, music and rock and pop and so on. Recently I read a review of a movie (the movie isn't really important in this instance) the reviewer wrote that upon leaving the movie theater two people were discussing the film, one said wow, wasn't that the best film ever, the friend exasperated replied, wow, wasn't that the worst film ever. Two friends disagreed about the merits of a movie, such as it ever was I would say.

When I read the poem I thought it was ( and was interested by this possible metaphor) describing hips as a metaphor for women universally? Secondly I thought about child bearing hips (thinking this was were the author may be going) as the poem moved along this was clearly not the case.
I smiled at the thought of magic and mighty hips (not really imagining any shape or size in this context) the denouement was half expected by now and again I smiled at this, thinking Oh well, that's how it goes sometimes.

At no point did I think it was a disgrace to women nor did I think it emasculated men.

If enough analysis is given to the context of the situation you could argue a feminist perspective and equally an anti-feminist perspective, to twist it one way or the other would depend on what the person doing so would like to achieve form this "Twisting"

I enjoyed reading it, the debate that ensued was much more interesting so the author managed to get people talking, which is perhaps the most important aspect of any art form?

I hope the comments here have helped you in writing your paper, please let us know how it was received...
Guest
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 4:32:26 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,412
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:05:22 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
Dancing_Doll wrote:


Really? This line in the poem doesn't give you the impression of enslavement?

these hips are free hips.
these hips have never been enslaved,


I had an impression of the author's likely background on first read and then got curious and googled her just to confirm that my initial suspicious were correct.

When I read the word 'enslavement', I automatically think of slavery and its darker connotations. Not the BDSM variety. And definitely not a disgruntled middle-aged white woman.


Enslavement can mean so many things, and it doesn't have to be the slavery suffered by so many different ethnicities through history. After all, poems frequently use imagery and other things to send out a message or prove a point. Also everybody sees things differently, especially in poems. Just because you get a certain impression of something, doesn't mean that everyone else will automatically get the same impression, especially if you read it in a more modern context. Like She pointed out, unless we have proper background info on the poet we won't know what time it is written in, and usually we'll read the poem out from a modern point of view, especially if handed to us like it was now.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
sprite
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 8:37:53 PM

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Joined: 6/18/2010
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She wrote:


and I am just saying that he has the right to his opinion, and if he thinks this is not his cup of tea and that is stupid, he is entitled to do so.
But let me tell you this that you sounds just as judgemental as he did in your eyes.


As far as poem goes and my thoughts about it, have to say that I found it disrespectful in a way that writer is disrespecting herself with this exaggerated feminism. I am not familiar with writer or her background, but reading it as 21.century woman, I would say that she is overdoing it. I have respect for women and feminisem in 70' and 80'. In the 90' feminism reached ugly phrase and in 21.century it is not needed. So this poem leaves me with bad taste and it's cry for being loved, respected, demanding it from someone else is just doesn't make sense to me and I found that rather pathetic. 21.century woman doesn't need other people's approval in a way writer demands.


feminism is always needed. the issue with feminism is people's perception of it. i consider myself a feminist. does that mean i think i deserve special treatment because of my gender? no, it means that i'm proud of who i am and that i think i deserve equal treatment and that, if i am not qualified to do something because i simply am not, than i should accept that AND that if i am qualified TO do something, than my gender shouldn't matter at all.

as far as demanding to be loved and respected, i understand that - some cultures do not value women or certain races, and sometimes you have to fight for your rights and get up in peoples faces - going through the painful growth of slowly getting rights as a gay woman, i get it - all too often i feel, because of legislation and people's attitudes, like a second class citizen - i get where the author is coming from - the battle for civil rights preceded the battle for that the LBGT community faces, but even in the 21 century, in some places, it's important to stand your ground. and homosexuals are finally - just finally, being recognized as equal - not better, but EQUAL - in some of the more liberal parts of these united states as far as marriage, rights in the workplace, and discrimination in general go...

so yeah, i get Ms. Clifton's point, i understand her POV and the fact that she chooses to celebrate thru her poetry, her womanhood and her race, rather then be bitter and angry, elevates me.

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/hardcore/west-coast-games-part-one-the-beach.aspx
Ruthie
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 10:17:53 PM

Rank: Story Verifier

Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 2,390
Location: United States

these hips are big hips.
they need space to
move around in.
they don't fit into little
petty places. these hips
are free hips.
they don't like to be held back.
these hips have never been enslaved,
they go where they want to go
they do what they want to do.
these hips are mighty hips.
these hips are magic hips.
i have known them
to put a spell on a man and
spin him like a top

This poem, like many of Clifton's poems, is feminist. Feminist doesn't mean anti-male. There is nothing anti-male or emasculating in any of her imagery. She is saying that her body doesn't fit the stereotypical ideal of feminine beauty and that it doesn't matter. She is self confident about her body, knows that it can and has been used to please men sexually, and therefore she is attractive. Her hips are symbolic of her attitude toward life. She is free. She is not bound by pettiness and other people's opinion of her. She is not enslaved by society's idea of what is beautiful or sexy. She is happy being who she is. The words that she uses to describe her hips are power words. Mighty, magic hips, free hips, hips able to go where they want and do as they please.

She isn't defined by her body or her sexuality, but by her freedom and independence. Her self is more than her hips, more than her weight, and much more than just a machine for making babies and pleasing men. The only men who would feel emasculated by this poem or it's sentiments are men who already hate women for being women. Men who just want sex dolls and dishwashers might be threatened by the freedom Clifton expresses in the poem, but men assured of their own sexuality and identity aren't threatened by her, the poem or the sentiments it expresses. She is saying that she is a complete woman, free, independent and also sexual.

The poem seems very straightforwardly feminist to me. It's a "I am woman hear me roar," kind of poem without the blatancy or stridency of I Am Woman. Clifton's poetry often features body parts and uses female sexuality to express thoughts about freedom and self reliance. This particular poem is political in the sense that being any woman is political in a patriarchy. She is not intimidated by men, but that doesn't mean she wants to castrate them. On the contrary, she uses her sexuality happily.

As far as She's contention that feminism isn't needed in the 21st century, I'd like to point out that it is a constant struggle to maintain the rights we have won. Given a chance, the right wing will take our rights to control our own bodies. The fight for women's rights is feminism. Are you saying women shouldn't fight for their rights, or are you under the impression that all the work was done in the seventies and eighties?
Ruthie
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 10:19:05 PM

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Joined: 10/21/2010
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I'm not sure that this belongs in the BDSM section though.
She
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:05:55 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,160
Location: Europe
sprite wrote:


feminism is always needed. the issue with feminism is people's perception of it. i consider myself a feminist. does that mean i think i deserve special treatment because of my gender? no, it means that i'm proud of who i am and that i think i deserve equal treatment and that, if i am not qualified to do something because i simply am not, than i should accept that AND that if i am qualified TO do something, than my gender shouldn't matter at all.

Exactly and being aware of that, that you might not be good enough for certain position and that that has nothing to do with your gender, it is normal. I personally think (and please don't take it personally because I really don't know you or your life) keeping feminism alive/active is like excuse to blame someone else for your bad calls, or just excuse to say they didn't do/accepted me, something because I am a woman.
Saying feminism is always needed is like saying fighting for everyone has the right to vote. It is done deal, we won, it is time for new changes. We shouldn't waste energy on battles that have been already won.


sprite wrote:

as far as demanding to be loved and respected, i understand that - some cultures do not value women or certain races, and sometimes you have to fight for your rights and get up in peoples faces - going through the painful growth of slowly getting rights as a gay woman, i get it - all too often i feel, because of legislation and people's attitudes, like a second class citizen - i get where the author is coming from - the battle for civil rights preceded the battle for that the LBGT community faces, but even in the 21 century, in some places, it's important to stand your ground. and homosexuals are finally - just finally, being recognized as equal - not better, but EQUAL - in some of the more liberal parts of these united states as far as marriage, rights in the workplace, and discrimination in general go...


I was expressing my thoughts about poem reading it as 21.century Europian woman. Not as orthodox muslim woman with barely any rights. I am no Che Guevara, I can only make changes in myenviroment. I am straight, but have gay friends and I am very active with helping them, but as I tell them I will tell you as well, fighting on the street with people, trying to change their mind to enlighten them is way too long process, this battle should be fought differently and until church is part of the political system you will never get your rights. So when people are saying I am religious but fighting for gays, sounds so rediculous to me.


sprite wrote:

so yeah, i get Ms. Clifton's point, i understand her POV and the fact that she chooses to celebrate thru her poetry, her womanhood and her race, rather then be bitter and angry, elevates me.


This is lovely thing about written word, we can read it as suits us. I read that from point of view, as equal woman who doesn't need to demand to be accepted or loved or appreciated as she is, because I simply am loved appreciated and accepted from myself and do not care about how others will see me. Who will love me, adore me as I am, will; who won't I certainly have no interest to point out how delicious I am, because it means I need them to be complete. The truth is that I am complite, full person without anybody's approval, ladies from last century won that battle for me and I certenly have not intentions to disrespect them with fighting that battle over again.
She
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:26:39 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,160
Location: Europe
CoopsRuthie wrote:

these hips are big hips.
they need space to
move around in.
they don't fit into little
petty places. these hips
are free hips.
they don't like to be held back.
these hips have never been enslaved,
they go where they want to go
they do what they want to do.
these hips are mighty hips.
these hips are magic hips.
i have known them
to put a spell on a man and
spin him like a top

This poem, like many of Clifton's poems, is feminist. Feminist doesn't mean anti-male. There is nothing anti-male or emasculating in any of her imagery. She is saying that her body doesn't fit the stereotypical ideal of feminine beauty and that it doesn't matter. She is self confident about her body, knows that it can and has been used to please men sexually, and therefore she is attractive. Her hips are symbolic of her attitude toward life. She is free. She is not bound by pettiness and other people's opinion of her. She is not enslaved by society's idea of what is beautiful or sexy. She is happy being who she is. The words that she uses to describe her hips are power words. Mighty, magic hips, free hips, hips able to go where they want and do as they please.

She isn't defined by her body or her sexuality, but by her freedom and independence. Her self is more than her hips, more than her weight, and much more than just a machine for making babies and pleasing men. The only men who would feel emasculated by this poem or it's sentiments are men who already hate women for being women. Men who just want sex dolls and dishwashers might be threatened by the freedom Clifton expresses in the poem, but men assured of their own sexuality and identity aren't threatened by her, the poem or the sentiments it expresses. She is saying that she is a complete woman, free, independent and also sexual.

The poem seems very straightforwardly feminist to me. It's a "I am woman hear me roar," kind of poem without the blatancy or stridency of I Am Woman. Clifton's poetry often features body parts and uses female sexuality to express thoughts about freedom and self reliance. This particular poem is political in the sense that being any woman is political in a patriarchy. She is not intimidated by men, but that doesn't mean she wants to castrate them. On the contrary, she uses her sexuality happily.


As I see it, this poem is not 'I am a woman hear me roar' but I am roaring to be heard as beautiful equal woman. It is a difference.

CoopsRuthie wrote:
As far as She's contention that feminism isn't needed in the 21st century, I'd like to point out that it is a constant struggle to maintain the rights we have won. Given a chance, the right wing will take our rights to control our own bodies. The fight for women's rights is feminism. Are you saying women shouldn't fight for their rights, or are you under the impression that all the work was done in the seventies and eighties?


Please don't get me wrong, I am woman in every sense, proud woman but I just think that we need to step out of the box a bit. With our every action there is reaction. Sometimes our leaders are taking our bone away from us, just so we won't noticed other important issues where we might be successfull, but too busy to notice..
I don't think women should fight their battles under the name of feminism, but under the name of equal citizents. It is not just the name, but who we are. When I am on the street, I am not fighting for woman rights, but my right as human being. Saying I am feminist in 21. century it says that nor you nor everyone around you believe that you have equal rights and I refuse to live like that. Maybe it is just in my head but I see feminism today as paradox.
As I pointed out in previous post, right wing has too much Church influences. I don't know if you can see what I am trying to say here, but is so important how we aproach the problem. Feminism was extremely emotional movement, very powerfull and today is everything about subtle diplomacy.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:06:21 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
The modern femnism do have a problem. The problem is the man hating new age women that's so anti-masculinity that they write womyn and womynhood just to remove anything that has to do with men. They go on saying how porn degrades women, when the research that has been done on the field is at best conflicting, and sometimes it proves that regular viewing of porn ends up leading men's view on women in a different direction.

Here in Norway they affiliate with the conservative Christians to take down sex shops and complain because women that play beach volleyball wear bikinis. One of their main goal is to shut down a sex shop. When one such shop had to close down they considered it a "victory for feminism". Whenever there's a mention of women abusing husbands and kids they say it's statements that are made by men trying to remove the issue from men that abuses, like it's not possible to focus on two things at the same time. Their statements and outbursts gets considered ludicrous and suddenly feminsts gets viewed as a bunch of man haters that are fighting AGAINST one of the many things the original feminists fought for; sexual liberation.

Make no mistake about it, I support equal opportunity for men and women and that we should be judged based on our skills and qualities, not our gender. But the 21st century feminism has been overshadowed by the man haters. THAT is why so many men consider feminists and feminst litterature a bunch of crap.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 9:05:25 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,298
Location: West Coast
Feminism becomes ugly only when you start to define it only according to radical feminist/extremist point of view - which only makes up a very small faction and actually takes things to such an extreme that it loses the whole point of the original movement.
Very similar to how Islam is misinterpreted when you only look to radicals like Al-queda and the Taliban.
And how the animal rights movement starts to look 'off' when it becomes synonymous for paint-throwing radical activists.
Pro-life bombers and religious militants can also give Christianity a bad name if they are seen as the norm.

If you take any movement or religion, there's going to be an extreme faction that forms. People should be able to separate this from the *actual* pure movement.

I think any woman that says she is not a feminist is doing herself a gross disservice in life. True feminism has always been about equality. Just because smaller factions of all the groups I mentioned above get more press because they stir up the most notoriety or bark the loudest doesn't make them the norm.


elitfromnorth
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 12:45:19 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
Dancing_Doll wrote:
Feminism becomes ugly only when you start to define it only according to radical feminist/extremist point of view - which only makes up a very small faction and actually takes things to such an extreme that it loses the whole point of the original movement.
Very similar to how Islam is misinterpreted when you only look to radicals like Al-queda and the Taliban.
And how the animal rights movement starts to look 'off' when it becomes synonymous for paint-throwing radical activists.
Pro-life bombers and religious militants can also give Christianity a bad name if they are seen as the norm.

If you take any movement or religion, there's going to be an extreme faction that forms. People should be able to separate this from the *actual* pure movement.

I think any woman that says she is not a feminist is doing herself a gross disservice in life. True feminism has always been about equality. Just because smaller factions of all the groups I mentioned above get more press because they stir up the most notoriety or bark the loudest doesn't make them the norm.


As true as it is that the radicals have ruined it for the rest, I think that's also why women don't want to say "I'm a feminist" simply because it sends off a bad vibe to most people. I think the majority of women do want equal rights, but they just refrain from callling themselves feminists because they don't want to be branded as a radical and can't be bothered to have to explain to people that "No, I'm not one of those who paint pictures with my own period blood".

Likewise in the modern western world there are more and more women who don't have to call themselves feminists because they already are equal in every matter that's important to them. The war is won hence there's no need to label themselves as a feminist anymore. Sure you can argue that they should to support those that are less fortunate, but let's be honest; solidarity is much less important than individuality in this day and age. Everyone will agree that it's retarded that women in Saudi Arabia can't drive(insert female driver joke here), but the fewest of us will actually work for it and make it our cause. We got other things to worry about, like what to have for dinner or the latest status updates on facebook.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Green_Man
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 2:25:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/9/2012
Posts: 1,008
Location: A verdant glen, United States
This seems to me a great to-do about a simple poem written by a BBW. She is expressing her attitude that big women are great too, all you skinny little girls out there. That's it in a nutshell. She is saying, "take me as I am, I have, and I rejoice in it." Simple.

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Dancing_Doll
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 3:12:00 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,298
Location: West Coast
elitfromnorth wrote:


As true as it is that the radicals have ruined it for the rest, I think that's also why women don't want to say "I'm a feminist" simply because it sends off a bad vibe to most people. I think the majority of women do want equal rights, but they just refrain from callling themselves feminists because they don't want to be branded as a radical and can't be bothered to have to explain to people that "No, I'm not one of those who paint pictures with my own period blood".

Likewise in the modern western world there are more and more women who don't have to call themselves feminists because they already are equal in every matter that's important to them. The war is won hence there's no need to label themselves as a feminist anymore. Sure you can argue that they should to support those that are less fortunate, but let's be honest; solidarity is much less important than individuality in this day and age. Everyone will agree that it's retarded that women in Saudi Arabia can't drive(insert female driver joke here), but the fewest of us will actually work for it and make it our cause. We got other things to worry about, like what to have for dinner or the latest status updates on facebook.


Women are affected by issues all the time that they probably don't trace back to issues of equality - whether it's being labeled a slut for being promiscuous, violence against women, political arguments in current modern day society about right wing pro-life/abortion issues, contraception etc. even in the recent elections stem back to women's rights issues. You have modern day politicians advocating that women should be forced to have their rape baby because 'God intended it'. And that's just in the world we have direct experience with, to say nothing about genital mutilation, forced marriages, rape warfare etc that goes on in the rest of the world.

Most people don't label or brand themselves as feminist, but the basic fundamentals of believing in gender equality means you share those beliefs, whether you're involved in raising awareness for any of these causes or not. Some of those homeland issues might have influenced the way a person voted. That simple act is still an action that shows that one does care about some of those issues. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just unfortunate that it's become a scary word to so many people.


magnificent1rascal
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 3:50:14 PM

Rank: Divine Rapscallion

Joined: 8/15/2010
Posts: 3,018
Location: On the ragged edge of disaster
The poem does not emasculate males. It embraces, celebrates and empowers womanhood.

For the record, I have never been hesitant to declare my unabashed feminism, nor have I ever felt the need to explain or apologize for it. My behavior — measured, thoughtful and rational — speaks for itself, and I don't have a lot of use for those who would judge me based on a label.

Maggie Rascal
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