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Poll Question : Is there an alternative?
Choice Votes Statistics
yes 7 58 %
no 5 41 %

Where would we be without religion? Options · View
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:17:12 PM

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Where would we be without religion? Would we have fallen like Rome or Gomorrah? Would there be a positive difference?

Can we talk about this objectively?

Please don't tell us if you believe or disbelieve. What would the alternative be? Is there an alternative?


I think there is no alternative because people have always longed for the belief in the unseen. It's possible that we could have risen higher on the evolution chart without religion? I don't know how we would've turned out;I can only speculate. Will we ever reach a place where the majority is unbelievers? Will the question (Where would we be without religion?) ever be answered?









Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:18:28 PM

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We just might be jetting around in flying cars and colonizing mars by now...



myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:19:51 PM

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lol- I thought about that : )

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:21:16 PM

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..we will never be free of it, im afraid.. (there will always be folks who demand to be told what to think, what to believe and how they should worship; &there will always be some gold-plated swine willing to exploit said followers for their own gain) sheepholy

(by the by--in the Lodge or Temple, Masons are disallowed from discussing religion or politics--talk of spirituality, mysticism and the Unseen, however, is totally encouraged!)
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:25:12 PM

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anton_b_ruin wrote:
..we will never be free of it, im afraid.. (there will always be folks who demand to be told what to think, what to believe and how they should worship; &there will always be some gold-plated swine willing to exploit said followers for their own gain) sheepholy


We are social animals and so herd oriented. It may be just our nature to follow?

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:26:19 PM

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myself wrote:
lol- I thought about that : )


I do tend to think that it's impossible to exist without religion. It's too hard for humans to answer all the questions of the universe, at this point in our evolution anyway. So I think people just need something like religion to not make them feel so small and insignificant in the universe.



Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:28:56 PM

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myself wrote:
anton_b_ruin wrote:
..we will never be free of it, im afraid.. (there will always be folks who demand to be told what to think, what to believe and how they should worship; &there will always be some gold-plated swine willing to exploit said followers for their own gain) sheepholy


We are social animals and so herd oriented. It may be just our nature to follow?


..for many, yes.. (others of us, not so much)

"When the student is ready, th' Master will appear" --th' Buddha

"cast not yr pearls before swine" --JC
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:29:24 PM

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Magical_felix wrote:
myself wrote:
lol- I thought about that : )


I do tend to think that it's impossible to exist without religion. It's too hard for humans to answer all the questions of the universe, at this point in our evolution anyway. So I think people just need something like religion to not make them feel so small and insignificant in the universe.


I so totally agree with you.

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:30:58 PM

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anton_b_ruin wrote:
..for many, yes.. (others of us, not so much)

"When the student is ready, th' Master will appear" --th' Buddha

"cast not yr pearls before swine" --JC


I so totally agree with this.

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:40:23 PM

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I agree with Myself on this. I think people are going to always wonder about their souls and what happens, and also how they can bargain a better deal for themselves. Some worry less about it, but in general, I think some form of religion will always be around.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:51:39 PM

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Losing my Religion actually made me a more compassionate human being.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:56:18 PM

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WellMadeMale wrote:
Losing my Religion actually made me a more compassionate human being.


except towards religious persons lol. Yes really, although it's my evolved religion that did it to me.

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:59:47 PM

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I have to wonder if peace wouldn't be closer at hand if there were no religion. Seems many fights and wars are started over religious beliefs. If you don't follow mine, then you deserve to die. Or so says a lot of their religious books and teachings. I can't see it ever happening though, as humans need crutches to lean on. They've needed that since they discovered fire and thought it a miracle and therefore must have been created by a higher power. They can't fathom that the world was created in any other way than by something bigger than themselves( a daddy form) and can't bear the thought that when you die, that's the end. We're still in the infant stage of evolution and our brains can't stand the thought of being alone and responsible for bad things, bad doings of others or good things that come about as well.
Your question is Is there an alternative. Yes there is but, no one will choose the alternative which is no religion because it makes them unpopular and untrustworthy of the masses.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 2:03:18 PM

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"Losing my Religion actually made me a more compassionate human being.." -WMM

..really..? (that song made me wanna chain-whip Michael Stipe)





..sorry couldnt resist, as a die-hard fan of REM's early music; i felt like crying when they went Mersh.. i'll admit it does have a nice melody.. (and a jaunty mandolin)

..oh and.. Screw the Holy See..!
(I was raised Catholic--thats what ruined religion for me, in case you were wonderin)
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 2:28:49 PM

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LadyX wrote:
I agree with Myself on this. I think people are going to always wonder about their souls and what happens, and also how they can bargain a better deal for themselves. Some worry less about it, but in general, I think some form of religion will always be around.



..i agree with myself too..! (cant stand arguing with anton--he's nuts)
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 2:40:16 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
I have to wonder if peace wouldn't be closer at hand if there were no religion. Seems many fights and wars are started over religious beliefs. If you don't follow mine, then you deserve to die. Or so says a lot of their religious books and teachings. I can't see it ever happening though, as humans need crutches to lean on. They've needed that since they discovered fire and thought it a miracle and therefore must have been created by a higher power. They can't fathom that the world was created in any other way than by something bigger than themselves( a daddy form) and can't bear the thought that when you die, that's the end. We're still in the infant stage of evolution and our brains can't stand the thought of being alone and responsible for bad things, bad doings of others or good things that come about as well.
Your question is Is there an alternative. Yes there is but, no one will choose the alternative which is no religion because it makes them unpopular and untrustworthy of the masses.


Could we muster enough goodness without religion to survive with dignity? I'd like to think that goodness is already in us at birth but I'm not sure human beings wouldn't cancel that with the natural survival instinct -fittest survive? Or, is that what we want? I'm not sure myself?

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 2:43:51 PM

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myself wrote:
chefkathleen wrote:
I have to wonder if peace wouldn't be closer at hand if there were no religion. Seems many fights and wars are started over religious beliefs. If you don't follow mine, then you deserve to die. Or so says a lot of their religious books and teachings. I can't see it ever happening though, as humans need crutches to lean on. They've needed that since they discovered fire and thought it a miracle and therefore must have been created by a higher power. They can't fathom that the world was created in any other way than by something bigger than themselves( a daddy form) and can't bear the thought that when you die, that's the end. We're still in the infant stage of evolution and our brains can't stand the thought of being alone and responsible for bad things, bad doings of others or good things that come about as well.
Your question is Is there an alternative. Yes there is but, no one will choose the alternative which is no religion because it makes them unpopular and untrustworthy of the masses.


Could we muster enough goodness without religion to survive with dignity? I'd like to think that goodness is already in us at birth but I'm not sure human beings wouldn't cancel that with the natural survival instinct -fittest survive? Or, is that what we want? I'm not sure myself?


..we may have to (if we are going to survive the coming changes).. these ancient cracked warhorses are increasingly ineffective at helping humanity cope with what is happening to us now..
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 3:22:20 PM

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anton_b_ruin wrote:
myself wrote:
chefkathleen wrote:
I have to wonder if peace wouldn't be closer at hand if there were no religion. Seems many fights and wars are started over religious beliefs. If you don't follow mine, then you deserve to die. Or so says a lot of their religious books and teachings. I can't see it ever happening though, as humans need crutches to lean on. They've needed that since they discovered fire and thought it a miracle and therefore must have been created by a higher power. They can't fathom that the world was created in any other way than by something bigger than themselves( a daddy form) and can't bear the thought that when you die, that's the end. We're still in the infant stage of evolution and our brains can't stand the thought of being alone and responsible for bad things, bad doings of others or good things that come about as well.
Your question is Is there an alternative. Yes there is but, no one will choose the alternative which is no religion because it makes them unpopular and untrustworthy of the masses.


Could we muster enough goodness without religion to survive with dignity? I'd like to think that goodness is already in us at birth but I'm not sure human beings wouldn't cancel that with the natural survival instinct -fittest survive? Or, is that what we want? I'm not sure myself?


..we may have to (if we are going to survive the coming changes).. these ancient cracked warhorses are increasingly ineffective at helping humanity cope with what is happening to us now..


I don't think we're born with "goodness" in us. I think it's a learned emotion. Empathy identifying with the feelings and thoughts of others I believe comes with observance of others around us. We've always had the survival of the fittest instinct in us. We just didn't understand or know that's what we were doing when choosing a mate, or allying with other people. I don't think that precludes us being good or kind to another just because we want to survive or mate with the best possible male/female, etc.
I agree with Anton, there is going to be changes coming. It may not be in our lifetime but, you can look at world history and see it's inevitable in order for us to thrive and continue to evolve as a species and not become extinct.
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:33:24 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
I don't think we're born with "goodness" in us. I think it's a learned emotion. Empathy identifying with the feelings and thoughts of others I believe comes with observance of others around us. We've always had the survival of the fittest instinct in us. We just didn't understand or know that's what we were doing when choosing a mate, or allying with other people. I don't think that precludes us being good or kind to another just because we want to survive or mate with the best possible male/female, etc.
I agree with Anton, there is going to be changes coming. It may not be in our lifetime but, you can look at world history and see it's inevitable in order for us to thrive and continue to evolve as a species and not become extinct.


You mayt be right in all of what you said.

I'm still not sure. Seems for as long as I can remember no matter how young or old when faced with a simple decision between right and wrong, I knew what was right even though I didn't always choose it. I think I only made amends because of conscience and the pain that comes with it and believe I got conscience from religious beliefs that were taught to me.



Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:40:00 PM

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Quote:
I think I only made amends because of conscience and the pain that comes with it and believe I got conscience from religious beliefs that were taught to me.


LOL I got mine from a mother that was good with guilt. evil4
myself
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:42:06 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
Quote:
I think I only made amends because of conscience and the pain that comes with it and believe I got conscience from religious beliefs that were taught to me.


LOL I got mine from a mother that was good with guilt. evil4


mine- The Catholics

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:46:28 PM

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myself wrote:
chefkathleen wrote:
Quote:
I think I only made amends because of conscience and the pain that comes with it and believe I got conscience from religious beliefs that were taught to me.


LOL I got mine from a mother that was good with guilt. evil4


mine- The Catholics


*shivers*
SadBi-Virgin
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 5:30:40 PM

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well rome fell after it became a christian nation and the dark ages where caused by the catholic church which put science back atleast a hundred years so I think we would be more advanced if the world had evolved without religion.
Woman
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:35:07 PM

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There are lots of ways to take this topic... to me religion is not just a new thing, but an ancient thing. All cultures (that I can recall at least) have had some sort of organised religion; from the Native Americans, to the Egyptians, to many throughout time one religion or another has guided men and women. Some for the advancement and the expansion of our minds and some for not so much for the advancement.

I think religion helped us when we needed it most... and I do not think people in general are ready to let go of beleif of something more just yet.

I don't really have an answer for this topic, one possible thought is we'd be more scientifically evolved, perhaps using more of our brain power... or perhaps even less scientifically evolved than we are now. For many of the advances were just men and women questioning the dogma of the age.


Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
GabrielSweet
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:04:08 AM

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Magical_felix wrote:
myself wrote:
lol- I thought about that : )


I do tend to think that it's impossible to exist without religion. It's too hard for humans to answer all the questions of the universe, at this point in our evolution anyway. So I think people just need something like religion to not make them feel so small and insignificant in the universe.


I believe it is possible to exist without religion, organized religion in my mind keeps people from thinking for themselves, Faith is a different story. I do believe we need faith in something in order to survive the trials of life. I believe if you have faith, then you will never feel small and insignificant. We may never answer all the questions of the universe, as every answer brings with it a new set of questions.


angel7


God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time - Robin Williams.


angel7


Magical_felix
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:54:50 AM

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GabrielSweet wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
myself wrote:
lol- I thought about that : )


I do tend to think that it's impossible to exist without religion. It's too hard for humans to answer all the questions of the universe, at this point in our evolution anyway. So I think people just need something like religion to not make them feel so small and insignificant in the universe.


I believe it is possible to exist without religion, organized religion in my mind keeps people from thinking for themselves, Faith is a different story. I do believe we need faith in something in order to survive the trials of life. I believe if you have faith, then you will never feel small and insignificant. We may never answer all the questions of the universe, as every answer brings with it a new set of questions.


angel7


The part I bolded is pretty much what I was saying. I was saying that religion is sometimes used as an easy way for some people to cope with life. Why am I here? Are we really just an accidental freak occurrence in the universe? Is there something more than this?

Or maybe just a nice way of saying it's a crutch.

I get what your saying about faith and religion being different things though. But in this hypothetical reality sooner or later some of the people will start talking to each other about their faith and some will agree more than others and start hanging around together. Maybe some of them will build a building to hang out and talk about their faith...



myself
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 4:04:51 AM

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Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
myself
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 4:49:06 AM

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myself wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
GabrielSweet wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:
[quote=myself]lol- I thought about that : )


I do tend to think that it's impossible to exist without religion. It's too hard for humans to answer all the questions of the universe, at this point in our evolution anyway. So I think people just need something like religion to not make them feel so small and insignificant in the universe.


I believe it is possible to exist without religion, organized religion in my mind keeps people from thinking for themselves, Faith is a different story. I do believe we need faith in something in order to survive the trials of life. I believe if you have faith, then you will never feel small and insignificant. We may never answer all the questions of the universe, as every answer brings with it a new set of questions.


angel7


The part I bolded is pretty much what I was saying. I was saying that religion is sometimes used as an easy way for some people to cope with life. Why am I here? Are we really just an accidental freak occurrence in the universe? Is there something more than this?

Or maybe just a nice way of saying it's a crutch.

I get what your saying about faith and religion being different things though. But in this hypothetical reality sooner or later some of the people will start talking to each other about their faith and some will agree more than others and start hanging around together. Maybe some of them will build a building to hang out and talk about their faith...



Definitions of religion: noun: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny


Faith in one's self, or mankind, or nature, or god, or evil, or whatever is religion isn't it? Don't understand the physics of control that religion has on destiny though?

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
mercianknight
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:14:18 AM

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SadBi-Virgin wrote:
well rome fell after it became a christian nation and the dark ages where caused by the catholic church which put science back atleast a hundred years so I think we would be more advanced if the world had evolved without religion.


Now, there I was just smiling self contentedly to myself at all the comments here when Sad-bi had to spoil it.

Taking facts in isolation to demonstrate a point can actually work both ways, ergo:

1. It can be equally argued that Rome fell after it became a christian nation BECAUSE the tolerance taught by christianity was seen as a sign of weakness by the barbarian nations who promptly swept across the Roman Empire looting and pillaging. Turning the other cheek is not always a good thing. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there...?

2. The Dark Ages were caused by the ebb and flow of the bubonic plague that swept across Europe decimating an already thin population and robbing civilisation of it's brightest minds. Into the void stepped catholicism preaching a mix of hope and damnation to increase the size of their flock. Opportunistic? Yes, but not the cause of the Dark Ages. The age of enlightenment came despite the churches once the population recovered and science could rear its head once again - based, I might add, from centers of learning within monastic schools.

Not picking on you Sad-bi, just making sure you stay straight and narrow - oh wait, is that an oxy-moron in your case? dontknow

"Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages, English and bad English." - Korben Dallas, from The Fifth Element

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must man be of learning from experience?" - George Bernard Shaw
myself
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:35:06 AM

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mercianknight wrote:
SadBi-Virgin wrote:
well rome fell after it became a christian nation and the dark ages where caused by the catholic church which put science back atleast a hundred years so I think we would be more advanced if the world had evolved without religion.


Now, there I was just smiling self contentedly to myself at all the comments here when Sad-bi had to spoil it.

Taking facts in isolation to demonstrate a point can actually work both ways, ergo:

1. It can be equally argued that Rome fell after it became a christian nation BECAUSE the tolerance taught by christianity was seen as a sign of weakness by the barbarian nations who promptly swept across the Roman Empire looting and pillaging. Turning the other cheek is not always a good thing. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there...?

2. The Dark Ages were caused by the ebb and flow of the bubonic plague that swept across Europe decimating an already thin population and robbing civilisation of it's brightest minds. Into the void stepped catholicism preaching a mix of hope and damnation to increase the size of their flock. Opportunistic? Yes, but not the cause of the Dark Ages. The age of enlightenment came despite the churches once the population recovered and science could rear its head once again - based, I might add, from centers of learning within monastic schools.

Not picking on you Sad-bi, just making sure you stay straight and narrow - oh wait, is that an oxy-moron in your case? dontknow


Thanks for the history lesson : )

Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
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