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Joe Paterno - Dead Options · View
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:29:20 AM

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JoePa Dead

Now what happens to the horror story of his abuse? Will he be remembered as a Legend of Coaching or as a man who abused his authority with minors?

Quote:
His family said Sunday Paterno died "with a peaceful mind, comforted by his 'living legacy' of five kids, 17 grandchildren, and hundreds of young men whose lives he changed in more ways than can begin to be counted."
DLizze
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:59:17 AM

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Because in general, history tends to be kind, Mr. Paterno will probably be remembered as one of the greatest football coaches who ever lived.

"There's only three tempos: slow, medium and fast. When you get between in the cracks, ain't nuthin' happenin'." Ben Webster
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:07:27 PM

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It's only fair that he be remembered for the totality of his accomplishments, which means a legacy of winning, of influencing hundreds of men in a positive way, and of course, for falling devastatingly short in his duties as a human being. Regardless of the tragedy- and, to be clear, the "fall of Paterno" isn't the tragedy- it's sad that the last two months of his life were his worst.
DLizze
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:17:32 PM

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I dispute the concept that we are, as the Bible would have it, ".. our brother's keeper."

Mr. Paterno reported the abuse to his superiors. At the time, that was all the law required. To have pursued it further would have simply meant his own dismissal, and would still have not changed the situation.

Before you denigrate a person, put yourself in his or her position. But remember we cannot rightly judge the past by today's standards and laws; we have to judge the past in context, bearing in mind always, that two wrongs do not make a right, regardless of Machiavelli's perpsective on the subject.

"There's only three tempos: slow, medium and fast. When you get between in the cracks, ain't nuthin' happenin'." Ben Webster
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:13:42 PM

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MsYumm wrote:

JoePa Dead

Now what happens to the horror story of his abuse? Will he be remembered as a Legend of Coaching or as a man who abused his authority with minors?



By how you put it, it makes it sound like you are saying that he did it, when in fact he didn't.

Why would he be remembered as someone who abused his authority with minors? He did what he was suppose to do, he told higher up in administration (because in the state of Pennsylvania, that is what the colleges are suppose to do). Morally yes he did something wrong, but by the law he was right.

I live in the state, I'm not a student there, but the state remembers him for his accomplishment as a great coach.
Rembacher
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:16:02 PM

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I think what a lot of people have trouble with in regards to Joe Paterno is the huge contrast between his lackadaisical treatment of the Sandusky allegations, compared to the extremely strong sentiment he had about the potential child abuse of his own kids.

Quote:
Paterno, and his wife, Sue, both told Jenkins that they would resort to violence if they believed that someone had abused their own children. "If someone touched my child, there wouldn't be a trial," Sue Paterno said. "I would have killed them." Given these feelings in his home about the sexual abuse of children, why did Paterno do only the absolute minimum required of him by law? Why didn't he follow up the allegations until he discovered the truth?


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/thus-begins-the-rehabilitation-of-joe-paterno/251435/

For someone who built his reputation on worrying about the people under his control first, and winning second, this scandal makes it seem like that was just a line, a myth, a legend that didn't actually match reality. Because when it really mattered, Joe Paterno was willing to turn a blind eye to the accusations, to pass them on, and wash his hands of them, and continue on working with a man who helped him win football games. Even if it meant that the kids who sought guidance in the church of Joe Paterno were at risk going forward.

I honestly believe that if Joe Paterno had built his reputation on being a win first coach who was hard on his players, this would have been less of a shock, and tarnished his legacy less. But we judge people on the expectations they create for us. JoePa wasn't a win at all costs, all that matters is me and my record, coach. He told us people mattered to him. So his treatment of people became what we judged him on. And it still is what we judge him on.

All that being said, I share LadyX's thoughts. I think he should be judged on all his activities, not just this one incident. I have no problem with people mourning the loss of him. He was human, and he did positively affect the lives of many people. But if you do mourn him, I think it does a huge disservice to the real victims, if you consider JoePa's tarnished legacy a tragedy. He did that to himself.

Slate also has a great article on this:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/obit/2012/01/joe_paterno_dead_is_it_appropriate_to_mourn_the_death_of_the_legendary_coach_.html
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:22:53 PM

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DLizze wrote:
I dispute the concept that we are, as the Bible would have it, ".. our brother's keeper."

Mr. Paterno reported the abuse to his superiors. At the time, that was all the law required. To have pursued it further would have simply meant his own dismissal, and would still have not changed the situation.

Before you denigrate a person, put yourself in his or her position. But remember we cannot rightly judge the past by today's standards and laws; we have to judge the past in context, bearing in mind always, that two wrongs do not make a right, regardless of Machiavelli's perpsective on the subject.
Meeting the requirements of the law is not the same as meeting the requirements of morality. What we know is that Joe Paterno knowingly allowed a child abuser to continue to work in his organization (and in his own organization which dealt with at risk youth) for years, when it was absolutely within his power to expose and stop the abuse.

Any moral person would have, in Joe Paterno's position, put the well being of the abused children above the well being of the Penn State football program. Joe Paterno did not, and as such is complicit.

To even think that accomplishments in football, no matter how great they are in that field (and I know nothing of football so I can't comment on it) even begin to compare with the immensity of his moral failure in the Sandusky case is monstrous. Football's just a game.
MissyLuvsYa
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:42:35 PM

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JoPa did not abuse those boys. His ex-assistant coach, Sandusky, did. JoPa did turn in the incident up the so called chain of command to his superiors, the Athletic Director and the President of Penn State University, who did nothing about it. They did tell him they were taking care of it. I guess tecnhically/legally he did the minimum of what he was supposed to do. Most people felt that he should have pushed the matter further to make sure something was done about it.

But face it, by the time of the molestation case JoPa wasn't the sharpest guy around. He was probably jusy a bit senile, don't you think? I wonder if it had happened just a few years sooner if he would of been on top of it more making sure that Sandusky was arrested. Maybe but who knows?
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:42:39 PM

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summa wrote:
Meeting the requirements of the law is not the same as meeting the requirements of morality. What we know is that Joe Paterno knowingly allowed a child abuser to continue to work in his organization (and in his own organization which dealt with at risk youth) for years, when it was absolutely within his power to expose and stop the abuse.

Any moral person would have, in Joe Paterno's position, put the well being of the abused children above the well being of the Penn State football program. Joe Paterno did not, and as such is complicit.

To even think that accomplishments in football, no matter how great they are in that field (and I know nothing of football so I can't comment on it) even begin to compare with the immensity of his moral failure in the Sandusky case is monstrous. Football's just a game.


He did was he was suppose to do, that is all by law that he can do because of the college. The administration should have called the police once Paterno told them, or if you want to say something about morality, what about the person who told Paterno?

That person said they saw what was going on but all that person did was tell Paterno. From Paterno's perspective, it could have been hearsay at first, that's why he passed what he was told to the administration, because they should have taken care of it.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 8:02:46 PM

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In the end it's all about money, and how to protect vested interest in it as we all know.

Do I care that he died, nope. Never knew the guy. Yes, I did know he had a team that was successful, but even my beloved Steelers employ another scum bag, Ben Roethlisberger. Even though I love the team, I will never buy jerseys and what not, nor that of any other team. Each of which hosts a scum bag of greater or lesser guilt/importance. I watch, and then turn it off. Any accomplishment on the field, and those off the filed that are used to mask or cloud the truth or give sway to decency are bullshit. There are plenty of people out there that help their surroundings ever day, without gratitude and do so without the same backing.

From song writers, to actors, and all the way to the White House, Senate and House, money is what talks.

And I will not listen.

Fugly
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 8:04:50 PM

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smoothwetkitty wrote:


He did was he was suppose to do, that is all by law that he can do because of the college. The administration should have called the police once Paterno told them, or if you want to say something about morality, what about the person who told Paterno?

That person said they saw what was going on but all that person did was tell Paterno. From Paterno's perspective, it could have been hearsay at first, that's why he passed what he was told to the administration, because they should have taken care of it.


I don't know, maybe there was a lot more he could have done within the law. If I was in Paterno's position, I would have hounded the administration daily until I was happy that the matter was handled correctly otherwise I would have threatened to hand in my resignation. I also would have insisted that Sandusky be sacked - Once sacked, it is no longer in control of Administration and I would have immediately gone to the police myself. I would not have, as Paterno did, carry on as if nothing happened, especially if I was a father myself.

What he did was not as bad as compared to Sandusky, but it was also not right.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 8:14:24 PM

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smoothwetkitty wrote:
By how you put it, it makes it sound like you are saying that he did it, when in fact he didn't.

Why would he be remembered as someone who abused his authority with minors? He did what he was suppose to do, he told higher up in administration (because in the state of Pennsylvania, that is what the colleges are suppose to do). Morally yes he did something wrong, but by the law he was right.


I do understand that JoePa didn't do the abuse, but with that type of information (Sandusky), KNOWING what had happened (regardless of how many times), he is painted with a similar brush. Anyone having knowledge of such a horrible thing (and repeatedly) should go out of their way to PROTECT the innocent, especially since JoePa was in a position of authority. sigh
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:02:15 PM

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smoothwetkitty wrote:
He did was he was suppose to do, that is all by law that he can do because of the college. The administration should have called the police once Paterno told them, or if you want to say something about morality, what about the person who told Paterno?

I hold those people responsible as well. However, they are not the deified head coach of a major football program, and they are not the ones that people rush to defend because of a football record, as if winning at football erases all other crimes.

Quote:
That person said they saw what was going on but all that person did was tell Paterno. From Paterno's perspective, it could have been hearsay at first, that's why he passed what he was told to the administration, because they should have taken care of it.

they should have. and he should have taken steps immediately to ensure that sandusky no longer had access to a network of at-risk children across the state. nevertheless, he did nothing, and when it became apparent that his superiors had also failed in their duty, he continued to do nothing. doing the minimum required by law is not enough in this case.
Juicyme
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:04:11 PM

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Regardless of whether we think he could have done more or his guilt by association, the fact remains that his memory will live on. The memory that lives on will be a positive one, only slightly marred by this case.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:11:40 PM

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Juicyme wrote:
Regardless of whether we think he could have done more or his guilt by association, the fact remains that his memory will live on. The memory that lives on will be a positive one, only slightly marred by this case.



I agree with you.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:13:33 AM

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It is an interesting question. Does one huge fuckup overshadow a life of positives?

Then again Michael Jackson is now remembered fondly so I'm sure Joe will be fine.
Buz
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 5:46:23 AM

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Paterno did a lot of good things. I will not hold that incident against him. I think a younger Joe Paterno would have handled it much more aggressively and made sure much more was done. He should have retired at least 10 years ago.

Sandusky on the other hand, needs to be aggressively prosecuted. That man is a piece of shit!

lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:06:11 AM

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I'm going to reserve my opinion of Paterno until after everything is said and done. When this all finally goes to trial we'll find out more about what actually happened. Paterno DID report what happened to his superiors. Did he inquire as to what ever became of it? Who knows. He may have later asked his boss about it and was told that nothing came of it, or there was no basis to believe it happened. The cover up in this goes deep. JoePa was probably a part of that, either willingly or unwillingly. Until we know more, I'm not going to totally throw him away. Yet. I'm also not going to sing is everloving praises.

This scandal is going to get ugly. Don't forget, the first DA that was looking into things has gone missing. And is presumed to be dead after his laptop was found gutted and destroyed.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
1curiouscat
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:13:18 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:


This scandal is going to get ugly. Don't forget, the first DA that was looking into things has gone missing. And is presumed to be dead after his laptop was found gutted and destroyed.


I did not know about this!!! Holly crap!



Overwhelming Reality

From Across the Room
Buz
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28:54 AM

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Wow LM, did not know that about the DA. I certainly believe that the cover up garners a serious criminal investigation. It sounds like there has been a culture of cover up at Penn State University that has included not only top ranking Penn State University officials but the local police.

Is this case eligible for FBI involvement?

We had a serious police corruption & cover up case involving the shooting and death of an elderly law abiding lady, in her own home in Atlanta. The FBI was called in and several Atlanta police detectives ended up going to prison. They were members of a so called elite drug unit.

I doubt local authorities can properly investigate that child molestation cover up case at Penn State. I've been under the impression that they are corrupt as hell there in Happy Valley.



Guest
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:43:25 AM

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Buz wrote:
Wow LM, did not know that about the DA. I certainly believe that the cover up garners a serious criminal investigation. It sounds like there has been a culture of cover up at Penn State University that has included not only top ranking Penn State University officials but the local police.

Is this case eligible for FBI involvement?

We had a serious police corruption & cover up case involving the shooting and death of an elderly law abiding lady, in her own home in Atlanta. The FBI was called in and several Atlanta police detectives ended up going to prison. They were members of a so called elite drug unit.

I doubt local authorities can properly investigate that child molestation cover up case at Penn State. I've been under the impression that they are corrupt as hell there in Happy Valley.



Well what our news stated (cause I'm in PA) was that the administration of the college covered up and never reported it. Also another thing (this i'm not sure if it is true or not but I heard this from a girl I'm in college with who knows people at Penn State) but supposedly the local authorities did not do anything because they get a lot of money from Penn State and they did not want to lose that.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:49:16 AM

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I didn't know about the DA either. Do they think it might be one of the radical students that abducted/killed him or one of the school staff?
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:05:19 AM

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Buz wrote:
Wow LM, did not know that about the DA. I certainly believe that the cover up garners a serious criminal investigation. It sounds like there has been a culture of cover up at Penn State University that has included not only top ranking Penn State University officials but the local police.

Is this case eligible for FBI involvement?

We had a serious police corruption & cover up case involving the shooting and death of an elderly law abiding lady, in her own home in Atlanta. The FBI was called in and several Atlanta police detectives ended up going to prison. They were members of a so called elite drug unit.

I doubt local authorities can properly investigate that child molestation cover up case at Penn State. I've been under the impression that they are corrupt as hell there in Happy Valley.



I'm trying to find the info that I had read several weeks ago. But I believe that the State College police are the only police force in Happy Valley. Somehow seperate yet part of the college. Seems like divided obligations to me.

Here is some info on the original DA....

Missing DA

I have believed all along that there is some sort of mafia thing going on here. Why else would supposedly "powerful" men remain silent? People only keep horrendous acts like this under wraps out of fear. Here, someone else believes it also....



Mafia and Penn State





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Nikki703
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:18:08 AM

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Fugs wrote:


I don't know, maybe there was a lot more he could have done within the law. If I was in Paterno's position, I would have hounded the administration daily until I was happy that the matter was handled correctly otherwise I would have threatened to hand in my resignation. I also would have insisted that Sandusky be sacked - Once sacked, it is no longer in control of Administration and I would have immediately gone to the police myself. I would not have, as Paterno did, carry on as if nothing happened, especially if I was a father myself.

What he did was not as bad as compared to Sandusky, but it was also not right.


I will not judge him until all the facts come out. But Joe Paterno was GOD at Penn State. I keep hearing he did all that was required by law, told the college adminstration. Thats bullshit. From what I know, and granted I may be very wrong, but Joe Paterno is " the adminstration" at Penn State. He had as much if not more power than anyone including the college president. Nothing happened there without his knowledge.

Once he reported Sandusky's actions, He still allowed him to hang around the team. He had the authority to keep him out, but chose not to do that. He knew about Sandusky's charity work and how he spent time with young boys. He allowed Sandusky to bring young boys to closed team practices. He could have put an end to that, but chose not to.

There are still many stones that need to be turned and a lot more info still hidden. This is a case of a major coverup including the probable murder of the DA. Personally I think it goes way past just the university but time will tell.

As for Joe Paterno, I think his once great legacy is ruined beyond repair, especially now that he is no longer here to defend himself. People may be willing to forgive someone for murder, but not anything involving child molestation!

As for Sandusky, no penalty will be harsh enough!!
Nikki703
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:24:14 AM

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Buz wrote:
Paterno did a lot of good things. I will not hold that incident against him. I think a younger Joe Paterno would have handled it much more aggressively and made sure much more was done. He should have retired at least 10 years ago.

Sandusky on the other hand, needs to be aggressively prosecuted. That man is a piece of shit!


He allowed Sandusky to bring young boys to team practices, knowing he stayed in hotel rooms with these boys while they visited and you do not hold that aginst him? WOW
Buz
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 12:35:05 PM

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The Missing District Attorney

By LEE FERRAN and RHONDA SCHWARTZ
Nov. 8, 2011

The prosecutor who decided to not pursue sex abuse charges against former Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky more than a decade ago, despite an alleged confession, is at the center of a missing persons mystery that has enraptured middle Pennsylvania for years.

Ray Gricar served as the district attorney for Pennsylvania's Centre County in 1998 when Sandusky was accused of sexually abusing several boys. After an extensive investigation, which included testimony by two law enforcement officers that they had overheard Sandusky admitting to showering with multiple young boys, Gricar decided no criminal charges would be filed, according to recent court documents. Sandusky retired the next year.

Then, in April 2005, Gricar disappeared.

His car was found abandoned in a Lewisburg, Pa., parking lot and his laptop's harddrive was recovered from the nearby Susquehannna River, but there was no other trace of Gricar. No clues could be gleaned from the severely damaged harddrive and despite a six year investigation that involved the FBI and international help, police have as little an idea today about what happened to the former DA as they did then.

"We literally used every single resource, national and international," Bellefonte, Pa., police chief Shawn Weaver told ABC News today. "This is baffling. He literally just disappeared off the face of the earth."



One thing that I find inexcusable is that Sandusky already had been suspect in child molestation and Penn State continued to let him bring young boys to their campus and use their athletic facilities. INTOLERABLE! There was already red flags on this guy. What in the hell were they thinking! And that disappearance of the District attorney is sure suspicious! What in the hell is going on in Pennsylvania?

Nikki703
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:18:52 PM

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Buz wrote:



One thing that I find inexcusable is that Sandusky already had been suspect in child molestation and Penn State continued to let him bring young boys to their campus and use their athletic facilities. INTOLERABLE! There was already red flags on this guy. What in the hell were they thinking! And that disappearance of the District attorney is sure suspicious! What in the hell is going on in Pennsylvania?


Not Penn State, PATERNO! Nothing having anything to do with the football team happens without his OK. And he let Sandusky bring these boys to watch practices!! I am in no way comparing Paterno to Sandusky, but what Paterno acted as an enabler.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:29:33 PM

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Paterno had been on the coaching staff at Penn State for 15 years in various assistant roles, before he was promoted to Head Coach in 1966.

32 years later the first whiff of definite impropriety reared its head at Happy Valley. The man he had chosen to be his 2nd in command, the Assistant Head Coach of the entire football program...had been rumored to have done something pretty gnarly.

That got shoved under the rug...And if you think Paterno didn't have anything to do with that...then you're sorely ignorant as to how powerful Paterno was at Penn State University by the mid 1990s. Hell, by the late 1970s, the man was defacto God, there.

You didn't wipe your ass, but that he didn't know about it.

Could his own hand picked 2nd in command have managed to live this double life and hidden it from Joe Paterno and everyone else? Not only is it laughably doubtful, it's ludicrous to even claim ... which Paterno was claiming.

Joe Paterno did a lot of good things for that University in the years prior to 1997-1998. He shoved heinous behavior under the rug, had a little talk with his Assistant Head Coach (told him he wasn't going to be promoted to Head Coach and succeed Paterno) and let him 'gracefully retire' while keeping full run-of-the-campus privileges normally extended to people of Sandusky's status, in retirement for years afterwards. Paterno just didn't want to know about Sandusky's illegally odd proclivities.

Paterno was busy chasing the Most Victories Ever for any major NCAA football coach in the years after he first got scent of the 1st incident.

Paterno died. Rest in Peace. He escapes further public vilification, humiliation and condemnation by taking his leave. His last 13 years of pleading ignorance will overshadow the previous 32 years of 'good work and deeds' IMO. As it should.

This scandal is far from over and what will come out will paint Paterno guilty as fucking sin. I know several people who held him in high regard...who can't even manage to defend him at all, since this crap hit the fan last November.

But what few people outside of Pennsylvania are aware of...is that the 2002 incident has been under active investigation for three years prior to Sandusky's perp walk.

His family and close friends will miss Joe Paterno. He wasn't the right god to revere in real life, however.

If ya can't beat 'em... pay someone to do it for you.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:34:52 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,713
Buz wrote:
The Missing District Attorney

By LEE FERRAN and RHONDA SCHWARTZ
Nov. 8, 2011

The prosecutor who decided to not pursue sex abuse charges against former Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky more than a decade ago, despite an alleged confession, is at the center of a missing persons mystery that has enraptured middle Pennsylvania for years.

Ray Gricar served as the district attorney for Pennsylvania's Centre County in 1998 when Sandusky was accused of sexually abusing several boys. After an extensive investigation, which included testimony by two law enforcement officers that they had overheard Sandusky admitting to showering with multiple young boys, Gricar decided no criminal charges would be filed, according to recent court documents. Sandusky retired the next year.

Then, in April 2005, Gricar disappeared.

His car was found abandoned in a Lewisburg, Pa., parking lot and his laptop's harddrive was recovered from the nearby Susquehannna River, but there was no other trace of Gricar. No clues could be gleaned from the severely damaged harddrive and despite a six year investigation that involved the FBI and international help, police have as little an idea today about what happened to the former DA as they did then.

"We literally used every single resource, national and international," Bellefonte, Pa., police chief Shawn Weaver told ABC News today. "This is baffling. He literally just disappeared off the face of the earth."



One thing that I find inexcusable is that Sandusky already had been suspect in child molestation and Penn State continued to let him bring young boys to their campus and use their athletic facilities. INTOLERABLE! There was already red flags on this guy. What in the hell were they thinking! And that disappearance of the District attorney is sure suspicious! What in the hell is going on in Pennsylvania?



Penn State had told him that he could not bring young boys onto the campus anymore.
Fugly
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 3:32:38 PM

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I am probably the least sports person here. I don't watch it, participate in it and very much so hate that every sports person is regarded as hero or legend - really pisses me off.

So it has me wondering, if Paterno's career was in politics, a child care worker or even the church instead of sports, would he still have the supporters claiming his innocence in his involvement that he has now? Somehow I doubt it.

and thank you LM for the updates, very interesting.
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