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Palestinia becoming a non-member observer state in the UN Options · View
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:12:14 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,588
Location: Burrowed, Norway
Can't be arsed to drag in an article link, but you can check any news website you want for sources. But Palestinia has been upgraded to being a "non-member observer state" in the UN, meaning practically nothing other than pretty much most of the world that voted for it, like France and Spain to mention a few European heavyweights, while the US and Canada not surprisingly voted against it. One of the things this allows Palestinia to do is bring Israel to court over the settlements on the West Bank to mention one thing. Israel and the US has said that this will halt the peace process, while others say that it shows Israel that great parts of the world accepts Palestinia as a nation.

Personally I think this is something that can speed on the peace process. Had Israel supported this it would have shown a goodwill and a desire to wanting to solve things peacefully towards the Palestinian people. Right now the Palestinian people feel nothing but oppressed, and are more likely to endorse the violent ideas of Hamas, than more diplomatic ways of Abbas and his party.

Secondly I think it's ironic that both the US, Israel AND Hamas don't want this. Hamas want Israel to keep oppressing people, simply because that's the only way they'll get support. If Abbas and his followers can show people that diplomacy is the way to go, then Hamas will lose support and end up being nothing more than a loose terrorist group with only a few fanatics supporting them, not the majority of the people. That is Hamas' strength; that they have so much support.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
tazznjazz
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:58:02 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/30/2012
Posts: 329
Location: under bright lights, United States
Settling the impasse that has gone on since the nation of Israel was formed through diplomacy would certainly be a step in the right direction, another would be to oust Hamas from power, that would send a signal to the world that Palestine wants a peaceful solution, although throughout the history of these two factions they have shown no sign of wanting to be peaceful neighbors.

I read an op-ed recently that suggested that the best solution was for Palestine to join into the nation of Israel and gain a political voice through the vote.
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:27:34 PM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
I'd love to see the least bit of evidence that Palestinians can live in peace within their confines adjacent to Israel. Unfortunately, that's never happened. They can't help themselves from committing terrorism, firing rockets, bombing buses, you name it. It's what they do. They obviously have no intention of finding peace with Israel, and the leaders they've chosen, Hamas, hold the ultimate destruction of Israel as their central reason for existence. Abbas is a puppet with ever declining influence, and so the Palestinians are speaking clearly by who they're choosing as leaders.

So, in the wake of this latest cease-fire, there will be quiet for a while, then a few rockets will get lobbed into Israel sooner or later, and Israel will retaliate, and the world will again harrumph and scold Israel for their "aggression" because political correctness has deemed that "peace" can only be accomplished by tethering Israel each time it gets attacked. It's a broken record.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:57:29 PM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,588
Location: Burrowed, Norway
People support Hamas, that's a known fact. Hamas has it as their main political agenda to destroy Israel(at least that we hear of. The fact that they re-build schools, mosques and remove local corruption is something we don't hear about of course. So why do they support Hamas if Hamas leads to violence? Because you have religious Jewish fanatics building settlements on Palestinian land. Gaza is suffering from a blockade that won't even let in emergency food and fuel. People in Gaza has limited supply of drinking water. How difficult do you think it is for Hamas to recruit people when all they have to say is "Look around at what Israel has brought us" and the young men will see starvation, poverty and the child graves after the Israeli bombs.

To hear that Palestineans "Can't help themselves from commiting terrorism" really sends shivers down my spine. If I had said that "Jews can't helpt themselves from stealing and grabbing as much money as they can" I'd been outed as a racist and a Nazi/KKK member. You might as well have thrown in "sandniggers" in the mix, because your statement is no better than that.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
LadyX
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:05:58 PM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
The Nazis and Italo-Fascists administered many good civic acts as well. Do you consequently absolve them of their inherent evil? Hamas is evil, full stop. They're terrorists who have garnered political power. But they're still terrorists. As far as the history of Israeli-targeted terrorism claimed by the palestians goes, it's been consistent and the record speaks for itself.

There's dispute about what all is being denied in that blockade, and it's a real shame if food and essential goods aren't getting in, but I'd hope that nobody would make the argument that an onerous blockade justifies murderous attacks.
tazznjazz
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:32:05 PM

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Joined: 4/30/2012
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Location: under bright lights, United States
quoting LadyX-So, in the wake of this latest cease-fire, there will be quiet for a while, then a few rockets will get lobbed into Israel sooner or later, and Israel will retaliate, and the world will again harrumph and scold Israel for their "aggression" because political correctness has deemed that "peace" can only be accomplished by tethering Israel each time it gets attacked. It's a broken record.

This is the reality of the history between these two, it hasn't changed since 1945 ,long before Hamas was conceived.
flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 1:03:54 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
Hmmm let's add just a tiny bit of historical context here. The Israelis started out as "terrorists" (pictures on posters and everything....yes REALLY) and were guilty and continue to be guilty of their fair share of obnoxious shit. I think one-sided clearly vehement political posturing is NOT helpful in moving towards a peaceful solution to this historical injustice? The Palestinian people have been beaten on long enough and this shit has to end. God did not give this land to the Israeli's, they took it by force. It is time the world stepped in and stopped the racist occupation of a people that Britain abandoned.

This uninformed post is clear evidence that people may be capable of writing good stories, but in their spare time they might be main-lining too much FOX News. The global instability created by illegal Israeli occupation destabilizes the entire world and puts us all at risk. The USA for the sake of the votes of NY, NJ and Florida is putting the entire world in an untenable position by supporting an aggressive illegal occupation of Palestine. I applaud France and the other countries who finally stood up to the USA and I deplore my own country Canada for their racist stand on this issue. I do not and will never accept a racist state such as that of Israel. Racism must be stamped out around the world.

As a further embellishment of the above, I have actually been to Palestine and Israel and have seen facts on the ground with my own eyes. I have also read the history of the Middle East, have been to Deir Yassin and Quneitra and walked the Golan Heights. I have sipped a glass of wine in the Bekka Valley, visited Baalbeck and walked the ancient Umayyad streets of Anjar. I have shared many cups of coffee in the ancient souk of Lawrence's "Damascus". I am not exactly ignorant on the history of the formation of Israel or its shameful treatment of the Palestinian people.

Americans like to throw around the word "terrorism" a great deal. I can, should you wish, recite volumes of "terrorist" acts planned and perpetrated by the Government of the USA. The fact that you in the USA have the most massive military in the world (and consequently owe us here in China trillions of dollars HAHA-- the joke is on YOU) does not make you MORALLY CORRECT or justified in your political posturing. The Palestinian people were a western looking European people who peacefully sought self-government under the British mandate. The British lied to them and tricked them and imprisoned, exiled or murdered their political leaders. Palestine had a passport, stamps and a civil government in place before large scale jewish immigration was forced upon them. The "radicalization" of the Palestinian people has developed over the decades and has been a direct result of their brutal occupation and merciless treatment by Israel. Israel's intransigent and voraciously land grabbing radical Israeli right wing successive governments have radicalized Palestine, full stop.

I am sad that Lady X's post is so racist and so ill-informed on the historical origins of the current struggle by Palestinians for justice. I had a chance to ride with Desmond Tutu on a flight to NYC and speak with him about Palestine. The entire world (ex-USA) understands the truth about Palestine and great moral leaders like Mr. Tutu are the visible voice of justice for Palestinians. I participated in the boycott against South Africa and I similarly call on fair minded people around the world to boycott Israeli products. The world does not need more wars and injustice. America is simply (for domestic political reasons) plain WRONG on this issue.
Naughty_Magician
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 2:43:19 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 5/21/2011
Posts: 1,800
Location: Sublime Heights, Germany
flytoomuch wrote:
Hmmm let's add just a tiny bit of historical context here. The Israelis started out as "terrorists" (pictures on posters and everything....yes REALLY) and were guilty and continue to be guilty of their fair share of obnoxious shit. I think one-sided clearly vehement political posturing is NOT helpful in moving towards a peaceful solution to this historical injustice? The Palestinian people have been beaten on long enough and this shit has to end. God did not give this land to the Israeli's, they took it by force. It is time the world stepped in and stopped the racist occupation of a people that Britain abandoned.

This uninformed post is clear evidence that people may be capable of writing good stories, but in their spare time they might be main-lining too much FOX News. The global instability created by illegal Israeli occupation destabilizes the entire world and puts us all at risk. The USA for the sake of the votes of NY, NJ and Florida is putting the entire world in an untenable position by supporting an aggressive illegal occupation of Palestine. I applaud France and the other countries who finally stood up to the USA and I deplore my own country Canada for their racist stand on this issue. I do not and will never accept a racist state such as that of Israel. Racism must be stamped out around the world.

As a further embellishment of the above, I have actually been to Palestine and Israel and have seen facts on the ground with my own eyes. I have also read the history of the Middle East, have been to Deir Yassin and Quneitra and walked the Golan Heights. I have sipped a glass of wine in the Bekka Valley, visited Baalbeck and walked the ancient Umayyad streets of Anjar. I have shared many cups of coffee in the ancient souk of Lawrence's "Damascus". I am not exactly ignorant on the history of the formation of Israel or its shameful treatment of the Palestinian people.

Americans like to throw around the word "terrorism" a great deal. I can, should you wish, recite volumes of "terrorist" acts planned and perpetrated by the Government of the USA. The fact that you in the USA have the most massive military in the world (and consequently owe us here in China trillions of dollars HAHA-- the joke is on YOU) does not make you MORALLY CORRECT or justified in your political posturing. The Palestinian people were a western looking European people who peacefully sought self-government under the British mandate. The British lied to them and tricked them and imprisoned, exiled or murdered their political leaders. Palestine had a passport, stamps and a civil government in place before large scale jewish immigration was forced upon them. The "radicalization" of the Palestinian people has developed over the decades and has been a direct result of their brutal occupation and merciless treatment by Israel. Israel's intransigent and voraciously land grabbing radical Israeli right wing successive governments have radicalized Palestine, full stop.

I am sad that Lady X's post is so racist and so ill-informed on the historical origins of the current struggle by Palestinians for justice. I had a chance to ride with Desmond Tutu on a flight to NYC and speak with him about Palestine. The entire world (ex-USA) understands the truth about Palestine and great moral leaders like Mr. Tutu are the visible voice of justice for Palestinians. I participated in the boycott against South Africa and I similarly call on fair minded people around the world to boycott Israeli products. The world does not need more wars and injustice. America is simply (for domestic political reasons) plain WRONG on this issue.


Excellent post, you just saved me a lot of typing, thanks.

I was utterly shocked at some of the initial responses. It seemed like people wanted to say 'all Palestinians are terrorists and the scum of the world so lets just bomb them till they are all dead'.

Doesn't it make anyone wonder how Israel has gotten bigger and bigger in the last 70 years, Palestine, on the other hand, has shrunk? That should explain who is the actual bully there.

On the subject of the UN recognition, I think its a step in the right direction, it should give Palestine some leverage.


Had a dream I was king, I woke up still king!!
flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 4:14:16 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
Thanks Josh and it is quite correct as you point out that any review of a map of the West Bank from 1967 till now delineating the Israeli illegal settlements will pretty well tell the entire story of what has happened under the occupation. Such a map only shows the land grab. It does not give you any sense of the daily fear and humiliation Palestinians are subjected to (and worse) by the Israeli military and the obnoxious radical Jewish so-called "Settlers". Israel is very adept also at using "legal" methods of dispossession, subjugation and humiliation. Israel have a well trained and well oiled PR machine to "explain" everything in very politically correct language on the readily available USA "news" outlets. I put "news" in brackets intentionally.

UN recognition in the General Assembly means little actually. So long as the USA President walks lock-step with the intransigent Israeli politicians nothing will move forward. Israel has no intention of implementing a two-state solution. When peaceful negotiations are not possible what is left for the Palestinians? Many of them are already living in a large prison camp and have been in this situation for decades? "Security" concerns are the constant refrain from Israel. This is a straw man argument. The Saudi Government and royal family have already offered peace and recognition on behalf of the Arab League if Israel agrees to the two-state solution. The Palestinian authority has also agreed and Hamas has made the same position known to all through back channels. It is Israel who has refused. They refuse because they are politically incapable of accepting the solution in their convoluted domestic fragmented political chaos where hardline parties run the show. Also they benefit economically from having a "state of war" exist. It gives Israel access to massive
amounts of USA and European aid, military gifts and massive funds wired by world-wide supporters.

Only the USA can force a compromise solution. This requires a second term president with some real moral fibre. So far this has been a non-existent commodity.

To confuse Americans and those who throw the word "terrorist" around so readily let's just look at who supports radical fanatical Islam? Was it the moderate Hashemite Palestinians with plural urban societies that included Moslems, Christians and Jews for centuries? I think not. How about the crazies, I mean the real crazies. Yes the Salafi/Wahhabi crazies. Yes the Al Saud Family and the rest of the Gulf State wako's. Oh who put them in power and is their ally? OH DEAR, it's the good old USA. Yes, George Bush held hands with old man Al Saud. Want to cut off hands? Want to oppress women? Visit America's allies. Isn't it funny how many threads lead back to the White House? Saudi's funded and trained the people who committed 9/11. Saudi's fund the radical Islamic schools in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia has oil. George Bush holds hands with the Al Saud Family? Got that FOX News?
Guest
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 5:56:52 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 470,180
elitfromnorth wrote:
People support Hamas, that's a known fact. Hamas has it as their main political agenda to destroy Israel(at least that we hear of. The fact that they re-build schools, mosques and remove local corruption is something we don't hear about of course. So why do they support Hamas if Hamas leads to violence? Because you have religious Jewish fanatics building settlements on Palestinian land. Gaza is suffering from a blockade that won't even let in emergency food and fuel. People in Gaza has limited supply of drinking water. How difficult do you think it is for Hamas to recruit people when all they have to say is "Look around at what Israel has brought us" and the young men will see starvation, poverty and the child graves after the Israeli bombs.

To hear that Palestineans "Can't help themselves from commiting terrorism" really sends shivers down my spine. If I had said that "Jews can't helpt themselves from stealing and grabbing as much money as they can" I'd been outed as a racist and a Nazi/KKK member. You might as well have thrown in "sandniggers" in the mix, because your statement is no better than that.



Absolutely and totally correct. Couldn't have put it better myself.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:18:44 AM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
flytoomuch wrote:
Hmmm let's add just a tiny bit of historical context here. The Israelis started out as "terrorists" (pictures on posters and everything....yes REALLY) and were guilty and continue to be guilty of their fair share of obnoxious shit. I think one-sided clearly vehement political posturing is NOT helpful in moving towards a peaceful solution to this historical injustice? The Palestinian people have been beaten on long enough and this shit has to end. God did not give this land to the Israeli's, they took it by force. It is time the world stepped in and stopped the racist occupation of a people that Britain abandoned.

This uninformed post is clear evidence that people may be capable of writing good stories, but in their spare time they might be main-lining too much FOX News. The global instability created by illegal Israeli occupation destabilizes the entire world and puts us all at risk. The USA for the sake of the votes of NY, NJ and Florida is putting the entire world in an untenable position by supporting an aggressive illegal occupation of Palestine. I applaud France and the other countries who finally stood up to the USA and I deplore my own country Canada for their racist stand on this issue. I do not and will never accept a racist state such as that of Israel. Racism must be stamped out around the world.

As a further embellishment of the above, I have actually been to Palestine and Israel and have seen facts on the ground with my own eyes. I have also read the history of the Middle East, have been to Deir Yassin and Quneitra and walked the Golan Heights. I have sipped a glass of wine in the Bekka Valley, visited Baalbeck and walked the ancient Umayyad streets of Anjar. I have shared many cups of coffee in the ancient souk of Lawrence's "Damascus". I am not exactly ignorant on the history of the formation of Israel or its shameful treatment of the Palestinian people.

Americans like to throw around the word "terrorism" a great deal. I can, should you wish, recite volumes of "terrorist" acts planned and perpetrated by the Government of the USA. The fact that you in the USA have the most massive military in the world (and consequently owe us here in China trillions of dollars HAHA-- the joke is on YOU) does not make you MORALLY CORRECT or justified in your political posturing. The Palestinian people were a western looking European people who peacefully sought self-government under the British mandate. The British lied to them and tricked them and imprisoned, exiled or murdered their political leaders. Palestine had a passport, stamps and a civil government in place before large scale jewish immigration was forced upon them. The "radicalization" of the Palestinian people has developed over the decades and has been a direct result of their brutal occupation and merciless treatment by Israel. Israel's intransigent and voraciously land grabbing radical Israeli right wing successive governments have radicalized Palestine, full stop.

I am sad that Lady X's post is so racist and so ill-informed on the historical origins of the current struggle by Palestinians for justice. I had a chance to ride with Desmond Tutu on a flight to NYC and speak with him about Palestine. The entire world (ex-USA) understands the truth about Palestine and great moral leaders like Mr. Tutu are the visible voice of justice for Palestinians. I participated in the boycott against South Africa and I similarly call on fair minded people around the world to boycott Israeli products. The world does not need more wars and injustice. America is simply (for domestic political reasons) plain WRONG on this issue.


Well first of all, let's define racism, shall we? Since you're choosing to throw that out there for consumption, I think it's best that we single that word out to make sure it fits here.

rac·ism

noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.


Where did I mention races? Let me know when you find it, because when you do, it won't appear in my post(s). I referenced the record of terrorist attacks on Israel claimed by the Palestinians (whether that's the PLO, or Hamas, or others, still correctly grouped). That's not a race, folks. Try as you might to frame this as me being anti-Arab, or anti-Islam, but those two distinctions have nothing to do with my statements. Everybody gets so jumpy about race, they see affronts where they don't actually occur. Being critical of Hamas or any other arm of Palestinian aggression has nothing to do with racism. I think you know better than this, too, you just get emotional in the disagreement. So, you're offended that I said that apparently that side can't help themselves from committing terrorism? Look at the record, then stay offended if you'd like. The fact that people are willing to defend acts of murder sort of takes me aback, but hey, different strokes.

THis must be the part of the post where you remind me that as an American (and therefore, somehow, probably responsible for George W. Bush), I'm well served to remember all the acts of murderous terrorism that my government supports. In addition to writing stories (and thanks for that compliment, by the way), I do keep up with a fair amount of current events. I'm by no means a historical scholar, but it's of interest and import to me. My government backs all kinds of crazy people and ideas over the years, and some fairly evil ones when it's deemed strategically sound. These are readily known, but thanks anyway for the heads up. You surely wouldn't process that as (my government = my wholesale subscription to it's actions), right? So, as you'd like to saddle me personally with every duplicitious foreign policy stance that the United States of America holds, you should know I probably agree that it's duplicitous and hypocritical in many cases, and otherwise you'll just have to settle for disagreeing with me here, friendly member of Lush Stories, and writing to your local government officials about the other.

If you've read more than two posts of mine, you know I'm not an ideological subscriber to Fox News. Not everyone that disagrees with you on foreign policy clings to right wing media. It's just ever so slightly more nuanced than that.

I'm aware that Israel's got plenty of blood on it's hands as well, dating back to the beginning of this awful struggle, but then again, I wasn't addressing the origins of the conflict in my previous posts. Rockets now will not rectify any past wrongs, no matter how wrong they may be. And while I'm sure I lack the middle east scholar-chops of some of you perhaps, I do know enough to know that it's not a one-sided landslide of persecution that you imply, but if you want me to admit that the Palestinians aren't 100% at fault, then here's a dollar with that admission. I've never claimed that to be the case. Here's what I did, and do, claim. Firing rockets, unprovoked, won't bring the peace that the Palestinians claim to want. Would you like to argue that? Or would you simply excuse it by dragging out a litany of excuses for their terrorism? Israel's far from a perfect partner here, but as I see it now (not sixty years ago, not in the Begin-era, not with respect to creeping border grabs, but now), the Palestinians are squandering an opportunity to unite the world (including the big, bad US logic-blockade) behind their cause and give Israel zero excuses to not concede a new reality for themselves and for the Palestinians. But each rocket and each bomb is another out given to Israel to (unfortunately, rightly) point out that legitimizing terrorists who state that extermination of Israel is their main goal is a questionable idea at best.

LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:29:47 AM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
Naughty_Magician wrote:


Excellent post, you just saved me a lot of typing, thanks.

I was utterly shocked at some of the initial responses. It seemed like people wanted to say 'all Palestinians are terrorists and the scum of the world so lets just bomb them till they are all dead'.



And I'm utterly shocked at your scope of understanding here, by choosing to read a criticism of sustained incivility as a genocide wish. I thought you were smarter than that.
flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 10:24:57 AM

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Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
Lady X. As for "racism" I quote: "They can't help themselves from committing terrorism, firing rockets, bombing buses, you name it. It's what they do." This is an ignorant and clearly RACIST comment. You should be ashamed. My next post will deal with the rest of your arguments. This is the "racist" part of your comment, which Josh was quite correct to have been shocked by.

As for your opinions being "your own" then I am even further shocked. If you genuinely believe such simplistic drivel as you have written then I am shocked. I just assumed you had not read much history and had little exposure to the conflict and the suffering of the Palestinian people other than what is provided by the USA based media. USA media is so biased for Israel and peddles so much false and misleading information on the conflict I was hoping to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you have read about the history of the conflict and you still do not understand that the Palestinians are the VICTIMS here then what can I say?
LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 10:28:46 AM

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flytoomuch wrote:
Lady X. As for "racism" I quote: "They can't help themselves from committing terrorism, firing rockets, bombing buses, you name it. It's what they do." This is an ignorant and clearly RACIST comment. You should be ashamed. My next post will deal with the rest of your arguments. This is the "racist" part of your comment, which Josh was quite correct to have been shocked by.



Race has nothing to do with it. Do not continue to make that charge unless you can back it up with something besides your own theory of how I "must" be anti-Arab for criticizing the Palestinians' acts of terrorism and aggression. Was the statement "too judgemental"? I'll buy that for a dollar. But race does not factor in. I'm sorry to tear down your "racist American" caricature, of which you've made me an avatar. In point of fact, please tell me how I've stated a falsehood regarding actions. I know you have a counter-narrative for what's "caused" those actions (not all of which I'd dispute, by the way), but please tell me that those actions haven't continually been taken.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 10:37:37 AM

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Joined: 9/25/2009
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Location: United States
flytoomuch wrote:


As for your opinions being "your own" then I am even further shocked. If you genuinely believe such simplistic drivel as you have written then I am shocked. I just assumed you had not read much history and had little exposure to the conflict and the suffering of the Palestinian people other than what is provided by the USA based media. USA media is so biased for Israel and peddles so much false and misleading information on the conflict I was hoping to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you have read about the history of the conflict and you still do not understand that the Palestinians are the VICTIMS here then what can I say?


Drivel here, drivel there, the US doesn't have a monopoly on it. If you believe that it's 100% a case of Israeli bullying, then perhaps you should consider the drivel within your own sources. Are you letting your emotions get the best of you from atop your high horse? Or with calmer heads prevailing, would you admit that this is not simply a case of Israel and the US persecuting the Palestinians, who remain at zero fault, but a very complex situation with lots of incidents of fault and victims on both sides. If you can't admit that, then you're the one that should be ashamed. Until then, I hope to give you the benefit of the doubt.
tazznjazz
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 10:42:10 AM

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Location: under bright lights, United States
The shame here is that innocent people take the brunt of the hostilities, not who's right or wrong.

Both sides have blood on their hands and that is never right.
flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 10:43:14 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
To Lady X: Israel today announced they would build “thousands of new homes for settles” in the occupied West Bank (Reuters 7 minutes ago). So what do you propose the Palestinians do Lady X? Beg? Cry? Throw a temper tantrum? It has been a few decades and this is the same story, more and more illegal settlements taking more and more Palestinian land. You seem to think this is okay?

So then let’s pose the historical corollary: was Jewish resistance to German occupation of Poland terrorism? Were the Irgun and Haganah “terrorist organizations” under the British Mandate? Any opinion on the bombing of the King David Hotel or the Dir Yassin Massacre? How about the massacres in Southern Lebanon? How about the leveling of Quneitra and towns in the Golan Heights? Israeli’s today celebrate these events and revere those who carried them out? Put simply Lady X the Israelis who did these acts WERE ALL TERRORISTS. Yet Israeli’s think they were heroes? History is funny that way since if you “win” you get to change the language. Will Hamas revere their heroes in the same historical prism of language as the Israelis?

Yes Lady X it suits your purposes to sweep the historical context of the conflict under the carpet. However it is not so easy for a Palestinian under occupation TODAY. I know from how you write that you have never been to Palestine and you have never seen a person murdered by a soldier in uniform in front of your eyes let alone a child. Is the state sanctioned violence of the Israeli army in some way more palatable to you Lady X? You write about “terrorism” and the Palestinian struggle in such a blasé and one-sided manner. For most of the objective observers in the world it is the Israeli soldiers and the Israeli government who are the real “terrorists” and not the Palestinian victims.

So for you do you define “Israel today” as Ariel Sharon’s Israel or Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel? Is there any difference? The Royal Family of Saudi Arabia made a unilateral offer of peace to Israel that Netanyahu has failed to respond to?? Why? Answer: They have NO INTENTION of giving any land to the Palestinians.

Okay Lady X, Israel “today”, here it goes: The occupation continues decade after decade and Palestinians have no rights; Gaza is a prison camp under a merciless deadly embargo; the land grab in the West Bank continues day by day (see todays news) without respite; illegal “settlement” expansion continues on a daily basis; new illegal settlements are being created each month; Palestinian’s face humiliating and stifling roadblocks daily preventing commerce or free movement; Palestinians are forced onto “Palestinian Roads” on their own land and excluded from “Jewish Roads”; Palestinian farmers are denied water while virtually all water is diverted to “Jewish farms”; collective punishment is inflicted on Palestinians on a continual basis; hundreds of Palestinians waste away under arbitrary imprisonment without trial for years; shall I continue?

Israel has created a racist state, which affords rights and privileges based on race and religion. It actively engages in the racist collective suppression of the Palestinian people and is undeniably driving them from their own land TODAY (i.e. RIGHT NOW!!). This is the very definition of a racist state.

Lady X you made comments that implied a “racial” quality to the Palestinian resistance. You made the direct suggestion of a racial predilection for violence and this suggestion IS RACIST. I don’t think you even know any Palestinians?? Such racist allegations are ignorant and stupid and should be beneath you.

Israel is a terrible aggressive and violently militaristic society that is funded and armed by the United States. Israel is aggressively pursuing legal constructs and military policies to annex and colonize the Palestinian territories, such little area that remains. I don’t presume to suggest, notwithstanding the evidence, that Jews have a racial tendency towards such violence. You similarly should not characterize Palestinians as gross caricatures; they are human beings who have suffered incredibly under occupation for decades. Many Jews oppose Israel’s actions and many Jews historically directly opposed the entire concept of Zionism. Accordingly I don’t characterize all Israelis as violent racists and you are wrong to have accused the victim for attempting to resist the on-going brutal occupation.

LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 11:06:38 AM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
flytoomuch wrote:
To Lady X: Israel today announced they would build “thousands of new homes for settles” in the occupied West Bank (Reuters 7 minutes ago). So what do you propose the Palestinians do Lady X? Beg? Cry? Throw a temper tantrum?


Not bomb innocent families and then celebrate doing so? A lot to ask, I know. It's a mess, what can I say? Lots of fault, and not just with the Palestinians, obviously.

flytoomuch wrote:

Okay Lady X, Israel “today”, here it goes: The occupation continues decade after decade and Palestinians have no rights; Gaza is a prison camp under a merciless deadly embargo; the land grab in the West Bank continues day by day (see todays news) without respite; illegal “settlement” expansion continues on a daily basis; new illegal settlements are being created each month; Palestinian’s face humiliating and stifling roadblocks daily preventing commerce or free movement; Palestinians are forced onto “Palestinian Roads” on their own land and excluded from “Jewish Roads”; Palestinian farmers are denied water while virtually all water is diverted to “Jewish farms”; collective punishment is inflicted on Palestinians on a continual basis; hundreds of Palestinians waste away under arbitrary imprisonment without trial for years; shall I continue?


You may if you'd like. From the beginning, just as now, I'd never assert that Israel's without fault. It's a messy situation which will not be remedied with terrorist attacks. Rail on, if you'd like, about how fatuous you find it for somebody who happens to live in America to utter the word terrorism. I know where you're coming from, and apparently the truth of what I do and do not agree with is of no use when bashing Americans for being state supporters of evil elsewhere in the world.* "it's funny how Americans talk about terrorism, when they're the ones that...blah blah blah." Being American doesn't come with a culpability invoice for government nefariousness. But hey, I get it, so fire away, captain.

But anyone who thinks that grenade launchers and car bombs will get us to a peace accord between Israel and Palestine is delusional. I'm sure that most Palestinians want peace. How could they not? Who really wants war, tragedy, and death to be the permanent norm in their lives? But their leadership is a bit suspect for making the same claims. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Hamas wants peace too, but not with Israel.

Two Israeli peace proposals, in 2000 and 2008, met virtually all of the Palestinians' demands for a sovereign state in the areas won by Israel in the 1967 war -- in the West Bank, Gaza and even East Jerusalem. Each time, accepting a Palestinian State meant accepting the Jewish State, a concession the Palestinians were unwilling to make.

That appears to be the issue. Not settlements. Not boundaries. The Palestinian leaders, like many Arab leaders elsewhere, have never acknowledged that the Jews came 'home' to Israel because they have never acknowledged that the Jews ever had a legitimate home there, nor do they honor the international agreements that made it so in the first place. Many don't even acknowledge that the Jews are a people. I know you've studied much, and far be it from me to be unwilling to learn, so educate me: where's the untruth in what I'm stating here?

Quote:

Israel has created a racist state, which affords rights and privileges based on race and religion. It actively engages in the racist collective suppression of the Palestinian people and is undeniably driving them from their own land TODAY (i.e. RIGHT NOW!!). This is the very definition of a racist state.


A racist state? Over 20 percent of Israeli citizens are Arabs. They can, and do: vote, hold elected office, serve as high-ranked officials, own property, and own businesses. It was an Arab judge in Israel that convicted a former president of Israel for rape, and sent him to jail. I might add here that no Arab in any Arab country enjoys the civil liberties that Arabs in Israel enjoy. Granted, yes, the so-called Palestinians don't enjoy the same rights, because they're not citizens of Israel. They live outside of Israel, by their own assertion, and are governed by Fatah or Hamas. When they enter Israel, they're subjected to a heap of scrutiny, and I'm sure it's not pleasant, but even those with zero sympathy for Israel's security would at least allow for the perilous realities it faces, so potential terrorists must be thwarted from entering through borders.


Quote:

Lady X you made comments that implied a “racial” quality to the Palestinian resistance. You made the direct suggestion of a racial predilection for violence and this suggestion IS RACIST. I don’t think you even know any Palestinians?? Such racist allegations are ignorant and stupid and should be beneath you.


Your own sensitivity and assumptions based on my statement don't constitute racism on my part, so that's for you to work out on your own. I didn't indicate a "predilection" for anything involving race: you're the one that's bringing that up and drawing a conclusion with it, not me. Stating what's happened, what continues to happen, and opining that the conditions within which they work seems to make them feel it's necessary to continue it, is not racist. I am not a racist, and if you're anything other than a troll with his heart on his sleeve at the moment, you'll drop that insinuation immediately. I'd never allege, or even imply, that you're an anti-Semite by blasting away at Israel's actions over the years, and all I ask is that you show some maturity by awarding me the same respect. I'm hoping that you realize that the race card is beneath you.


*and I suspect that this is your latest chance to vent your beefs with American foreign policy as much as it is a dogged defense of Palestine. You'd probably be surprised how much we agree on many things, but that's for another time, you know, when you aren't flipping out and calling me an ignorant racist.
principessa
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 11:19:23 AM

Rank: Sophisticate

Joined: 8/23/2011
Posts: 3,874
Location: Canada
Imagine for a moment that Cuba was lobbing rockets to Miami indiscriminately. How long would the US stand for it? Or a similar situation with any other country. Why should Israel be the only country in the world expected to live under such conditions by the apologists for Palestinian terrorism?

Imagine for a moment that instead of allowing the Palestinians to sit in refugee camps for fifty years the oil-rich nations of the Middle East had done their best to absorb and/or support them. What would their situation be now?

The Israelis have a right to live in peace as do the Palestinians. I believe in the two-state solution, but the Palestinians seem to have a talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. How many times have they been millimeters from a peace settlement and walked away? (Camp David, with President Clinton, etc.) It is almost as if without their hatred of Israel they could not exist. Who would they then blame for their plight? They would have to look at their corrupt leaders.

I do not agree with the ultra-Orthadox Israelis who continue to insist on settlements outside of Israel. Other Israelis should not have to defend them and this is blocks any agreement.

The problem is similar to that in American politics. The extremes on both sides have too much power relative to their numbers.

While Hamas was elected in purported democratic elections, they do not recognize Israel`s right to exist. Until they do this and stop terrorist tactics, there can be no peace. They deliberately hide themselves and their armaments among the civilian population and then complain that there are civilian casualties. Contrary to the Israelis who warn civilians away, they target them, even school children.

I am also appalled by the intellectuals in Europe and elsewhere who want to boycott anything that is related to Israel and compare them to Nazis. There could not be a more disgusting comparison considering the country was populated by survivors of the Holocaust. The hatred of Israel in these circles is a thinly veiled anti-Semitism and is abhorrent.

The truth is that neither side can come to the table with clean hands, but I remain convinced that there is more blame on the Palestinian side.

I hope that this UN victory is one for Abbas and strengthens him in rivalry with Hamas. There is a glimmer that if this is the case, peace might be possible.

We can ask about history so far, how is that working for you? It is time for some brave statesmanship on both sides.


Guest
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 11:43:23 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 470,180
This debate seems to be getting a little heated here. Please allow me to try and mediate a little regarding the racism allegation toward Ladyx. I don't believe she is racist and I don't believe it was her intention to come accross that way. However when she said palestians can't help themselves firing rockets etc. It did in fact come accross that way. Because she used the word palestians and not specific terrorist groups or factions of palestians, thus implying that all palestian paople do such acts. I simply think her choice of words were not the best. I don't believe she intended to be racist. People should stop using what she said as ammo to bully her because you have a different view of the Palestine/Israel debate. And ladyx you need to admit your choice of words were bad instead of trying to defend what you said, tell people you said something stupid. Then things will much better. Peace x
LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 11:47:03 AM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
NewWaveDave wrote:
This debate seems to be getting a little heated here.


If you stick around the Think Tank, you'll see that it happens from time to time, but it's no biggie. Big issues come with heated responses sometimes. As for the rest, I'll happily speak for myself.

Welcome aboard, by the way. icon_smile
ByronLord
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 12:36:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/14/2010
Posts: 716
Location: Massachusetts, United States
Imagine for a moment that the US imposed a blockade on Cuba and refused to allow food, medicine, building materials, any manufactured goods in or out. Would the Cubans sending rockets still be an unjustified use of force?

The law of war counts a blockade as a use of force and thus a casus belli.

Picking sides in that dispute is a mugs game. The reason Hamas was sending the rockets was that Israel had mounted a drone attack which was in turn a response to the Israeli elections and other rockets which were in turn...

What nobody seems to appreciate is that for there to be peace the two groups of people have to get along. So the idea that Israel can be a 'Jews only' state is only going to mean more war. Jews are now a minority in the borders Israel asserts control over. Short of 'transfer' (Likud speak for genocide/ethnic cleansing) that minority position is only going to become more lop sided.

Without solid US support, Israel is completely finished. Israel had 9 votes against the motion, apart from the US, Israel and five US quasi-colonies, the only supporters of Israel were Canada and the Czech Republic. Take away US support and Israel stands alone.

Israel's position with US Jews is very age dependent. The over 60s tend to be obnoxious crazy Zionists. the under 40s are much more skeptical. They blame the Israeli settlers for the current situation at least as much as the Palestinians. US support for Israel is headed for an inevitable decline as the Holocaust guilt generation dies out. Take a look at support for AIPAC sponsored motions in Congress and note that they get a pretty much unanimous support from the gentiles but less than 50% from the Jewish members.

Zionism is increasingly an evangelical cause rather than a Jewish one. Furthermore the eschatology that supports evangelical Zionism kind of involves the destruction of Israel and not just the creation so support from that quarter is probably something Jews should be less keen on.

The declaration of a Palestinian state is in itself utterly irrelevant as neither side now wants one. Netanyahu and Lieberman want a Jewish only state and have no intention of ceding a square inch of 'Greater Israel'. As Netanyahu admitted in private, they only intend to keep kicking the can down the road. They have no interest in a peace treaty. Nor should they because Hamas has made clear that it will start an intifada to derail any process that is attempted.

Take a look at the record of Hamas and Likud and you will see that each has deliberately incited violence to derail each peace process. Sharon derailed the last serious attempt under Clinton by invading the Al Aksar Mosque with a bunch of fellow thugs. Hamas starts the suicide bombings and rockets when there is a risk of Hamas giving up the rights of the Palestinian people as a whole in return for the right to rule the Bantustan archipelago on offer as an 'independent state'.

It just can't go on like this. The whole idea of a Jewish state is inherently racist. It has led to an Apartheid system that is only partly democratic and becoming less so over time. It can stumble along for five years, maybe ten. But US support is only going to last as long as there is a plausible pretense being made and the Israeli right is increasingly uninterested in pretending.

The idea that my children should automatically have the right to Israeli citizenship is utterly preposterous. They have never lived there, nor has any of their parents or grandparents even visited. A state that insists that they have the right to citizenship but a person born in Jaffa who fled the terrorism of Shamir's Irgun does not is inherently racist and illegitimate.

Increasingly the demand is not for a separate Palestinian state but for equal rights for everyone within the borders. That is the end game. It may take ten years but it won't take more than thirty. If Egypt and Syria go the way of Turkey we could be looking at a situation in ten years time where Israel is no longer the only 'democratic' country in a sea of dictatorships and is instead seen as the only illegitimate, undemocratic state in the Eastern med. region.

Rembacher
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 5:45:40 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,101
Naughty_Magician
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:24:04 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 5/21/2011
Posts: 1,800
Location: Sublime Heights, Germany
LadyX wrote:


And I'm utterly shocked at your scope of understanding here, by choosing to read a criticism of sustained incivility as a genocide wish. I thought you were smarter than that.


In your first post, you generalized Palestinians and held them responsible for the violence. That is something most people here didn't take a liking to. I was disappointed because I thought you were smart enough to see the real picture than the one that is shown by the biased media.

I didn't say you wished genocide. But its the same thought process, you're at a lower step, if you keep thinking the way you seem to do about this particular conflict, you might get to a point where you won't care about whatever Israel does to the Palestinians (assuming you do now).

I remember hearing a Israeli leader (can't remember his name) calling the 2008 bombardment of Palestine as 'trimming garden', he deemed it important to do that every now and then. How are we sure Hamas fired the rockets? It could have been Mosad agents starting to instigate the latest round of aggression. As far as I know, not more than half a dozen Israelis died in 2012, compared to more than a hundred Palestinians (more than half of which were children and women). How come Israel with its state of art weapons hit the wrong locations and I'm not even sure they were just targeting Hamas personnel.




Had a dream I was king, I woke up still king!!
flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:44:58 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
Haha I LOVE Ron Burgundy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For Lord Byron: "And on that cheek, and o'er that brow, So soft, so calm, yet eloquent, The smiles that win, the tints that glow, But tell of days in goodness spent, A mind at peace with all below, A heart whose love is innocent." One of my favorite poems. The world could do with a few additional innocent hearts unfortunately.

Thanks Lord Byron for a cogent post that pretty much nails current Israel. It is important for observers to accept and understand that there is no viable peaceful way forward for the Palestinians with the radical right in Israel. These parties and leaders in Israel who embrace "Holy Israel" as a political imperative and that means the current and past governments are NOT nice people. I'm all for Freedom and Liberty for ALL and so a one-state solution is fine with me LB. I don't accept the subjugation of any peoples and that includes Egyptians under an American stooge or under the Muslim Brotherhood (yes Lady X I've been to Egypt too), the people of Saudi Arabia under a US stooge, the Gulf State peoples under US supported dictators, etc. America today lectures Syria on democracy while supporting some of the most brutal dictatorships around the world. The hypocrisy and double standards are not lost on the world. If America didn't like the pluralistic society of Syria (under a dictator) where women were free to go to university and work, if Syria is "tyranny" then for god's sake why are you selling weapons, fighter jets and crowd control technology to the Al Saud Family and the Al Thani Family???

A central problem I have with some of the posts above is the definition and description of "violence" as a one-sided affair seemingly limited to Palestinian resistance. The concept of Cuba lobbing missiles on the USA has been posed as a "comparable" situation. Actually it is simply NOT comparable. Violence is not simply guns and rockets. Violence takes many forms. For Americans let me put it this way: if Mexicans or Germans or some foreigners came to invade and take part of Texas, to annex part of American land, and got a UN "resolution" to legitimize their invasion (say Resolution 181?) how would Americans feel? Then Americans fought back and lost and the invaders occupied MORE American land with a large population of Americans (let's call these parts of Louisiana the "Occupied Territories") Then the invaders "legally declared" certain neighborhoods of these "Occupied Territories" in Louisiana "defense zones" and they proceeded to bulldoze American houses en-masse and expropriate American family's property what would be the response be from Americans? Americans would shoot the invaders, shoot the invader children, bomb them, burn down the invader's schools and buildings and Americans would form "illegal" American "terrorist gangs" of like-minded armed American citizens and AMERICANS WOULD FIGHT BACK tooth and nail! Inventive Americans in the Occupied Territories would smuggle in goods from Alabama, perhaps rockets provided by Canada?, and these very same Americans would lob those rockets into the invader cities. These American rockets would kill many Germans indiscriminately, but this would be okay for Americans because, in their minds they were the victims. After all the whole world was standing back doing nothing. Meanwhile the invaders would form courts, pass laws, create roads, expropriate land and create the infrastructure of a new state where the Americans who originally lived there for generations were second class citizens. Would Americans concern themselves unduly with which invaders and foreign attackers they were killing? I think not. The USA dropped the atomic bomb after all.

The violence of stealing a people's land and bulldozing a person's home is pretty primal and basic. I don't know about you, but if someone stole my home, bulldozed my building and harmed my children, I'd fucking kill them. But Hey, that's just me Lady X?

For those who don't quite grasp the concept yet, the Palestinians are RESISTING OCCUPATION. They are not the "invader" they are the "invaded party". Yes Israel relies on Resolution 181 to claim a legal patina to their violent Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestine, but at the end of the day it was the violent taking of a people's land by force. Conveniently and again with the current resolution Israel has ignored all subsequent UN Resolutions? I guess when you have the biggest fucking army you can PICK AND CHOOSE your legal justifications right?

Anyways, I'm done with this issue. The Palestinian people are used to being demonized by uninformed people like those who posted on here. I hold out little hope for peace since the United States, as in all matters, acts in its own short-term self interest. Israel, due to its own political dynamics, is incapable of moving towards peace and resolution. Israel will keep beating on the Palestinians, abusing them, dispossessing them and every once in a while the Palestinians will lash back at the violence inflicted upon them.

The world needs to step in, separate the parties and compensate the settlers for being moved out and settle this terrible situation once and for all. Why don't they do it? It would be (so people think?) political suicide for a US President to take firm action in this regard. Quite simply that's why people are dying, the USA political leadership is paralyzed on this issue and bound hand and foot by a radical theological sect of Israelis.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:25:04 PM

Rank: Thread Mediator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,658
Location: United States
Naughty_Magician wrote:


In your first post, you generalized Palestinians and held them responsible for the violence.



Granted, I didn't elaborate my point like I should've; I left it too curtly. I don't hold individual Palestinian citizens responsible for the violence. I do, however, view their leadership with skepticism (to say the least). To suggest that maybe terrorist Hamas got framed by rogue rockets? LOL come on. Thats giving the benefit of well beyond a reasonable doubt.

And no, I haven't seen any clue that either Hamas or Fatah leadership has a genuine desire for coexistence with Israel. The problem is that Israel won't get out of its own way to give everyone a chance to find out. To wit:

flytoomuch wrote:
there is no viable peaceful way forward for the Palestinians with the radical right in Israel.


Unfortunately true, as far as I can tell. Neither side excuses the other, this is true also. As LB stated, the cause/effect chain stretches too far back to see the clear origin, and at this point, it's immaterial. I wish Abbas was given a chance to reverse past and present decisions, and truly put the diplomatic screws to Israel. But with carbomb-fest continuing ad infinitum, Israel always has the out.

Quote:
yes Lady X I've been to Egypt too.
.

I don't doubt the travel resume that you're rightly proud of. My regards to Bishop Tutu.
Naughty_Magician
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:34:56 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 5/21/2011
Posts: 1,800
Location: Sublime Heights, Germany
LadyX, I'm glad you have admitted that. Your stance is now a little closer to reality but you still have a long way to go.

Like John said, Israel is the aggressor there and Palestine is the victim. If that land is the home of Jewish people, they shouldn't have left it, no one forced them out. For sustainable peace, I believe Israel should end the blockade and the UN's forces should monitor the border. It would the peace negotiations if the Palestinians don't feel kidnapped.

Had a dream I was king, I woke up still king!!
mysticlover
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:42:44 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 8/28/2011
Posts: 27
Location: Exeter, United Kingdom
Good

Love begins with an image; lust with a sensation.

flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 8:06:34 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
Lady X I think you might actually benefit from sitting on a plane for 13 hours and having a chance to have dialogue with Mr. Tutu. Unlike Obama and other fake leaders he has put himself on the line and stood up to violence and ignorance and racism. He does not curry favor or wealth or power and he speaks the truth. He is an example of what we all need to do in the smaller circle of our lives. I can do little, but I do refuse to purchase anything that I know has been made in Israel. This is my tiny little symbolic act. It is more than you do when you actively post and give comfort to the violent oppressor. Hamas arose because of US policy and intransigence, not the other way around. You then proceed to "set up" Hamas as your "argument" or "reason" as why you are incapable of offering a just solution. This is a fallacious argument without logic or factual foundation. Hamas is your American creation. Your facts and your interpretation of history leaves me baffled. Israel and America are the greatest military powers in the region by a multiple of 100's. The so called "security" of Israel and of the Palestinians can easily be guaranteed. There is simply no political will to oppose the Israeli right and the USA media machine they manipulate.

You have chosen to ignore the whole issue of how Americans would act in a situation such as the one the Palestinians are in? Put yourself and your other gun-totting freedom loving American citizens in the shoes of a Palestinian watching their house being demolished. What would YOU do and how would YOU react? Imagine your child being murdered by a man wearing a nice uniform? If you are not prepared to walk in the other person's shoes then I would suggest you are living in a glass house. The "car bomb-fest" as you choose to describe it is a REACTION, not an "action". A curious person might want to ask themselves, what in the world could possibly cause people to behave like this?? That curious person would then start a journey to understand how the Palestinians have arrived where they are. That curious person would NOT have made the post you made or hold the opinions you hold.

You can make fun of me for being well informed and for having actually been to Ramallah and Jerusalem and Petra and having met with and spoken to UN Observers, Palestinian people and Israelis, but this is typical again of Americans. Deride those who disagree with you and satirize them. Ignore history and facts and just plough ahead with your own opinions no matter how warped they may be. That's pretty much my impression of America. Haha I don't want to be "racist" but there are a terribly great number of Americans who have no health care, poor educations and a total ignorance of the wider world. You spend so much of your precious national wealth (or borrowed wealth from China) on weapons (which you then proceed to give away to Israel and miscellaneous dictators) that you can't actually afford proper health care or education for your own people (or so your politicians tell you). So sad.

Anyways Lady X I am very disappointed in your arguments and your opinions. Your lack of empathy or curiosity about important world events is rather shocking. Oh well c'est la vie. Carry on as an Israeli right wing cheerleader. It's not as if they lack applicants. As Lord Byron rightly points out the true Israeli cohort in America is not actually Jewish people it is wacko evangelical Christians. Accordingly you are not in this debate dealing with "facts" or rational debate. You are dealing with religious fanatics in both Israel and America. This religious fanaticism has engendered its own reactionary response in the Palestinian people. How surprising?
flytoomuch
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 8:25:28 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/24/2011
Posts: 233
Location: Fremont, United States
Hey everyone....I'm leaving the front lines to have a bath and pick out my Christmas tree (a 7ft Noble Fir). John ducks and dodges the "in-coming" right wing Israeli insults and heads for the bathroom. It's been fun. I'm off to the boat show and to enjoy a sunny day in Hong Kong. Josh hold the front during my absence haha.

Oh shit, is that Lady X's drone outside my house. FUCK!! John runs!!! (CNN reports loud explosion in Hong Kong) Funeral dirge plays and eulogies for John are shown on Al Jazeera, but not on FOX News.

It's been a blast gang.
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