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Just take away the guns, do it now Options · View
Guest
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:29:31 PM

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Criminal are criminals because they break the law. Change all the gun laws you want, criminals will still be able to get guns.
tazznjazz
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:36:46 PM

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Location: under bright lights, United States
And round and round we go while people get shot down daily by accident or designNutbag
Monocle
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:50:32 PM

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Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
Guns don't kill people.
People kill people.
People with guns kill more people more quickly.

If you outlaw (certain types of) guns, only outlaws will have (certain types of) guns.
If you keep all types of guns legal, outlaws, and idiots, and the unstable will have all types guns.

If you background check every gun sale and register every gun... something something FREEDOM!
myself
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:05:04 PM

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Joined: 3/17/2010
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Location: .showyourdick.org/


Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Monocle
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:08:48 PM

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Posts: 286
If "Evil" wants to kill 10, 20, 50 people, but all Evil has to do it with is a figurative butter-knife, Evil will have a hard time accomplishing what evil wants to do. It behooves us not to make it easy on bad ol' Evil.
redman2r
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:43:38 PM

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Location: United States
tazznjazz wrote:
And round and round we go while people get shot down daily by accident or designNutbag


Or get blown up with a bomb, made from something as simple as gas. 25 percent more deaths occur from traffic fatalities each year than from guns. Should we go after the bigger problem and eliminated automobiles?
kputt6912
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:47:19 PM

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Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 34
Location: upstate, United States
About 15 yrs ago NBC's Dateline did a special on guns.The reporter had a hidden camera in a duffle bag,walked into a diner in NYC.The man he was meeting asked what he wanted,the reporter said "whatever $10.00 can get me". The man said ok i'll be back in 15 minutes,walked out of the diner,was back in 10 minutes with a .38 pistol.NBC then checked what was left of the serial numbers on the gun.(criminals grind them off)They found that the gun they bought was in POLICE custody 7 times!!! So don't start blaming guns again,start blaming PEOPLE!!People are friggin' whacked out!!Just ask any middle easterner,they use human bombs to kill kids!!You'll need those terrible guns when Obamas' jackbooted thugs come to drag you away to the FEMA camps awaiting our arrival!!WAKE UP AMERICA!! Guns aren't the problem,it's TOO MANY PEOPLE !!! Sword Fight
AngelHeart01
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:01:28 PM

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Location: ♥ Southern Style ♥, United States
No one is taking my right to own a gun. I don't see myself handing over the ones I own either.
Monocle
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:20:41 PM

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Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
Too often this boils down to talking to a wall. Or a gun.
Regulating guns whose only real purpose is warfighting, registering guns similarly as far less lethal cars, and criminal background checking gun purchases are not "taking rights to own a gun."

I can't believe that any sane, non-anarchist would _not_ want criminal background checks for gun purchases. You guys seriously want to make it _that_ easy for convicted felons et al to get their hands on weapons?

Registration isn't taking. It's not infringing. It's calling for personal responsibility of gun owners, because, as it is, not all of you are taking personal responsibility for your weapons. Not enough of you, anyway.
redman2r
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:27:36 PM

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OMG! Is this a really good forum for LUSH! I think this should all be deleted. Lets get back to sex stories.
flytoomuch
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:40:53 PM

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Location: Fremont, United States
Does regulating the use of guns work? Well Canada's homicide rate is some 300%+ lower than the USA's and Japan (which has even more restrictive rules) is like a few thousand percent less. Hmmm I guess guns do actually kill people. Who would'a thunk that?
clum
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 2:03:12 AM

Rank: Clumeleon

Joined: 5/13/2011
Posts: 3,728
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
collegeboy69 wrote:
Criminal are criminals because they break the law. Change all the gun laws you want, criminals will still be able to get guns.


That's not a defence of the legality of firearms; that's defeatism. If the US really does want to sort out this gun crime problem, it's not just about legislation (although perhaps that's a good place to start). There needs to be a fundamental change in people's attitudes to guns and the whole gun culture in the country. There's no quick fix that Obama is gonna conjure up even in the next four years; it has to be a long process of education and dialogue.

Importantly, America needs to find an American solution because America is not the UK, Australia, Japan or Canada. They can learn from those countries but should not assume that what works (to whatever extent) for those countries will work (to the same extent) there.

The lion is most lionlike when he roars.
delsmith
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 5:04:36 AM

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Joined: 4/30/2012
Posts: 168
Location: Erie, United States
The bad guys will get guns and use them; the good guys are not the problem. Responsible gun owners are among the best of our citizens and store their weapons properly. You can't legislate or fix this with laws.

The saddest part is that now our president, intentionally not capitalized, is focusing on guns and not the fiscal cliff.

Monocle
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 9:31:24 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
delsmith wrote:
The saddest part is that now our president, intentionally not capitalized, is focusing on guns and not the fiscal cliff.


Comedy. Who adjourned the House with no plan?

Lanza got his guns from his mother, who'd bought them legally.

Gun owners who don't secure their weapons are irresponsible.
Gun owners who don't support background checks and registration for all sales are irresponsible.
Gun owners who think the problem of gun violence is caused anything and everything but guns are irresponsible and living in a fantasyland.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 9:52:09 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,068
Location: United States
flytoomuch wrote:
Does regulating the use of guns work? Well Canada's homicide rate is some 300%+ lower than the USA's and Japan (which has even more restrictive rules) is like a few thousand percent less. Hmmm I guess guns do actually kill people. Who would'a thunk that?



And Chicago, home of the strictest gun control in the nation, has a higher murder rate than Houston or Dallas, which have the most lenient gun laws. In fact, Chicago has a higher murder rate than New York City and Los Angeles, put together. Who would'a thunk that?


Link

MrNudiePants
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 9:57:22 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,068
Location: United States
Monocle wrote:

Gun owners who don't secure their weapons are irresponsible.
Gun owners who don't support background checks and registration for all sales are irresponsible.
Gun owners who think the problem of gun violence is caused anything and everything but guns are irresponsible and living in a fantasyland.



And... opinions are like assholes. everybody's got one, and they're usually full of shit.

I agree that gun owners should take all reasonable precautions to secure their firearms. And I agree that those who don't are pretty irresponsible. As for the rest... yeah. See the above cliche about opinions...

Monocle
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 9:59:41 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
MrNudiePants wrote:



And Chicago, home of the strictest gun control in the nation, has a higher murder rate than Houston or Dallas, which have the most lenient gun laws. In fact, Chicago has a higher murder rate than New York City and Los Angeles, put together. Who would'a thunk that?


Link


That shows that state by state (or city by city) regulations are inadequate. DC also has strict laws and high rates, but it's right next to VA which has lax laws.

As for opinions and assholes, that's a nice way to cheapen every side of an argument and prevent discourse. I'm pretty tired of this issue being paralyzed by attitudes like that.
tazznjazz
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/30/2012
Posts: 329
Location: under bright lights, United States
tazznjazz wrote:
And round and round we go while people get shot down daily by accident or designNutbag


The NRA finally made a statement calling for armed guards at schools with no willingness to work towards a reduction in assault weapons. After reading some of the posts from NRA advocates here this is hardly a surprise and in fact it's clear where the pro gun talking points originate.

We should just give in to the wisdom of the NRA [a true non sequitur] and not only have armed guards in our schools, but train our children in the use of AK-47's from pre-school on. Five years old seems like a fine age to adorn the little angels in flack jackets, protective headgear, and the advantage of multi -clips in their ammo backpacks. Recess would be a lively affair, but to combat this, we can arm teachers with rocket launchers or bazooka's, the playgrounds drone zones.

The graduation rate may decline slightly but they'd be protected and freedom loving gun toting, pistol packing Americans and hold their heads high, feet spread apart in military stance as they look dead ahead at a bright future.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 10:36:42 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,068
Location: United States
Monocle wrote:


That shows that state by state (or city by city) regulations are inadequate. DC also has strict laws and high rates, but it's right next to VA which has lax laws.

As for opinions and assholes, that's a nice way to cheapen every side of an argument and prevent discourse. I'm pretty tired of this issue being paralyzed by attitudes like that.


No, what it shows is the solid fact that the presence or absence of gun laws has little to no effect on the crime rate here in the United States.

And what's paralyzing progress against school violence is the whole "It's the gun's fault!" attitude all too prevalent in the media, and government administrations. Instead of looking at the whole problem and trying to find real solutions, you just want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what actual experts in combating violence have to say.

Banning alcohol and drugs has never stopped people from getting drunk and high. Banning guns won't stop crazy people from committing acts of violence.

Monocle
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 5:46:38 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
MrNudiePants wrote:

No, what it shows is the solid fact that the presence or absence of gun laws has little to no effect on the crime rate here in the United States.


False. It shows that state by state laws, and poor enforcement of the current laws in place, fail to control the ownership, movement, and use of guns.

MrNudiePants wrote:
And what's paralyzing progress against school violence is the whole "It's the gun's fault!" attitude all too prevalent in the media, and government administrations.

False. a) That's not the message of the media and the government. b) The gun industry and its shills are crying the opposite as loud as they can - everything _but_ guns is at fault. It's pretty fucking obvious it's a combination of factors but to deny guns are a major part of the equation is willful ignorance at the very least.

MrNudiePants wrote:
Instead of looking at the whole problem and trying to find real solutions, you just want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what actual experts in combating violence have to say.

False. Not sure where you got that from. Presumption never furthered a discussion.

MrNudiePants wrote:
Banning alcohol and drugs has never stopped people from getting drunk and high. Banning guns won't stop crazy people from committing acts of violence.

Arresting and taking away drivers licenses for DUI reduces drunk driving fatalities. Requiring insurance for drivers is a method of demanding personal responsibility. These are reasonable parallels for gun ownership. Plus, though there are fringe folk who want all guns banned, the vast majority of gun control advocates are not saying that. If you want us to ignore the nuts like La Pierre (who deigns to speak for most of you), you'd damn well better not tar all gun control advocates as take-all-the-guns absolutists.
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:57:43 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/10/2012
Posts: 683
Location: Home, United States
jillinjulie wrote:
An odd perspective, but I have a concealed carry permit as part of my job as a jeweler who transports valuable merchandise.
Trained extensively; but hope never ever to have a confrontation.
Lest I do, I have a first line of defense to protect my life and maybe others.
Not everyone is in the same situation as I so I do not expect support.


You always have my support. As you know, I've had to carry one too. Actually, I rarely loaded my weapon in Afghanistan as I figured if I had to use it, I was already dead. But I wonder if these people know that the fact that Japan knew most Americans had guns kept them from invading us in WW2.

I have no real love of guns, but I'm not so quick to say get rid of them. The criminals will always have a way to get their hands on them. The problem is the culture we live in, not the guns. Only a fool blames the tool rather than the carpenter/surgeon/mechanic/etc.

tender_cowboy
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:31:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 10/7/2007
Posts: 52
Location: South Dakota
liberal thinkers got a nice warm feeling years ago when schools were made a gun free zone..... how is that warm feeling now? Putting armed guards at schools may help but what next? Day care centers. or old people homes, places where people have no way of protecting them selves. The only way to save and protect your self is by mean of self protection and a gun is the best defense. FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS is not a talking point for me it is a way of life! When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns then i guess theat my government will have made me a criminal. Long live America and God bless the NRA.




Monocle
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:09:57 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
Folks like you, tender_cowboy, make me feel unsafe, and make me quantitatively less safe. I hope no one ever gets caught in your crossfire. I trust neither your judgment nor your aim.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:58:15 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,068
Location: United States
All right. If you want to play this idiotic quote tree game, I'll play along this once.



Monocle wrote:

Arresting and taking away drivers licenses for DUI reduces drunk driving fatalities. Requiring insurance for drivers is a method of demanding personal responsibility. These are reasonable parallels for gun ownership. Plus, though there are fringe folk who want all guns banned, the vast majority of gun control advocates are not saying that. If you want us to ignore the nuts like La Pierre (who deigns to speak for most of you), you'd damn well better not tar all gun control advocates as take-all-the-guns absolutists.


FALSE. Taking someone's drivers' license away doesn't stop them from drinking and driving. I know several people personally that have driven drunk even after their license was suspended. In fact, I know one person so profligate in flouting that law that he's had his driving privileges revoked, nationwide, for the rest of his life. Requiring insurance is a bullshit feel-good method of thinking you have control over situations beyond your control. Otherwise, no insurance underwriter would offer "Uninsured Motorist" coverage. I know several people that have had to use it, as they've been in accidents with people that have no insurance.

Monocle wrote:

That's not the message of the media and the government. b) The gun industry and its shills are crying the opposite as loud as they can - everything _but_ guns is at fault. It's pretty fucking obvious it's a combination of factors but to deny guns are a major part of the equation is willful ignorance at the very least.


FALSE. Show me one popular news article that says the guns are not to blame. As for the government's point of view: "President Obama stepped up his public commitment to specific gun control measures Friday by asking a like-minded audience to rally around his efforts to pass them." and "Over the past week, the administration has begun to ratchet up the specificity of its commitment to gun control measures."


Monocle wrote:

Not sure where you got that from. Presumption never furthered a discussion.



FALSE. Have you posted on my thread where I've quoted actual experts on the issue? If you haven't, then I'm going to let my statement stand.


Monocle wrote:

It shows that state by state laws, and poor enforcement of the current laws in place, fail to control the ownership, movement, and use of guns.


FALSE. Prove to me using any valid statistical metric how our current laws have failed, or how our current laws are not being enforced, and this has caused such failure. You'll find that the vast majority of crime is caused by criminals,or other unlawful firearms owners. There will be anomalies to the norm, but those will be (very) rare exceptions.


MrNudiePants
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:59:33 PM

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Monocle wrote:
Folks like you, tender_cowboy, make me feel unsafe, and make me quantitatively less safe. I hope no one ever gets caught in your crossfire. I trust neither your judgment nor your aim.


If you don't feel safe around people that have proven themselves over and over to be honest, law-abiding citizens, then who DO you feel safe around?

Monocle
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 10:44:51 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
MrNudiePants wrote:
All right. If you want to play this idiotic quote tree game, I'll play along this once.

I'm sorry you don't like it. For me it helps to address things point by point without introducing confusion.


Quote:
FALSE. Show me one popular news article that says the guns are not to blame.

The allegation is yours, the onus of proof is on you. You show me the media (and the government) blames guns solely. That is your claim.

Quote:
As for the government's point of view: "President Obama stepped up his public commitment to specific gun control measures Friday by asking a like-minded audience to rally around his efforts to pass them." and "Over the past week, the administration has begun to ratchet up the specificity of its commitment to gun control measures."

That does not support your claim.

Quote:
Have you posted on my thread where I've quoted actual experts on the issue? If you haven't, then I'm going to let my statement stand.

I've read plenty of expert and claimed expert opinions. Some agree with you, some do not. Your presumption of what I want, and what I've done does you no credit.


Quote:
FALSE. Prove to me using any valid statistical metric how our current laws have failed, or how our current laws are not being enforced, and this has caused such failure.

A number of VA gun stores have been singled out as sources for numerous weapons used in DC crimes. This isn't atypical of adjacent lax/strict regions

Quote:
You'll find that the vast majority of crime is caused by criminals,or other unlawful firearms owners. There will be anomalies to the norm, but those will be (very) rare exceptions.

Most (>2/3) mass shootings in the last 30 years were committed with legally obtained firearms.

Quote:
FALSE. Taking someone's drivers' license away doesn't stop them from drinking and driving.

It stops some of them, and it's a start.

Quote:
Requiring insurance is a bullshit feel-good method of thinking you have control over situations beyond your control.

It's not 'feel-good'. It's protection for you when you get rear-ended by a distracted driver. Requiring firearm insurance would be similar.

Quote:
If you don't feel safe around people that have proven themselves over and over to be honest, law-abiding citizens, then who DO you feel safe around?

Random Joes I don't know toting guns don't make me feel safe. Uniformed officers/military, my unease is balanced by my trust in their obligations to their duty. I have no such trust of an armed stranger - they _haven't_ proved themselves to be honest, or have good judgment, or be good shots. Not to me.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:36:10 PM

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Posts: 2,068
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MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:00:50 AM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
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Monocle wrote:

Random Joes I don't know toting guns don't make me feel safe. Uniformed officers/military, my unease is balanced by my trust in their obligations to their duty. I have no such trust of an armed stranger - they _haven't_ proved themselves to be honest, or have good judgment, or be good shots. Not to me.


But they HAVE proven themselves to be honest, since part of purchasing a firearm involves the dealer calling the purchase in to the police and running the purchaser's information through criminal data bases. As for the rest... if they're honest, law abiding citizens, you'll never find out, will you?


Quote:
The allegation is yours, the onus of proof is on you. You show me the media (and the government) blames guns solely. That is your claim.


Do I really need to start listing headlines? Now you're just being tedious.


Quote:
That does not support your claim.


Of course it does. if it doesn't then refute it.

Quote:
I've read plenty of expert and claimed expert opinions. Some agree with you, some do not. Your presumption of what I want, and what I've done does you no credit.


So prove it. More tediousness. Possibly outright falsehoods. All of which does me no credit, either.

Quote:
Most (>2/3) mass shootings in the last 30 years were committed with legally obtained firearms.


Again, exceptions to the rule. Want me to start posting stories where criminals obtained their firearms illegally? Or can we just accept the more-than-obvious truth that it happens?

Quote:
It's not 'feel-good'. It's protection for you when you get rear-ended by a distracted driver. Requiring firearm insurance would be similar.


Except when you're rear-ended by an uninsured motorist. More tediousness.


Quote:
It stops some of them, and it's a start.


So if we just ban cars, then it'll stop ALL incidents of drunk-driving, won't it? This is exactly the premise a gun ban works on. Get rid of the guns, and somehow criminals won't be able to ply their trade any more. This is exactly like fighting drunk driving by banning certain makes or models of cars, or by banning cars with certain "assault" features. But all those who rail for a ban on guns forget that legal ownership of guns is sometimes a matter of life or death for innocent civilians who are targeted for robberies, or for "thrill killers", or just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


Quote:
The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33


Link


Quote:
Woodham drove his mother's car to Pearl High School. Wearing a trench coat, to hide his rifle when he entered the school, Woodham fatally shot Lydia Kaye Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Pearl High School's assistant band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing five feet away from Dew when she was fatally shot. Woodham went on to wound seven others.[2][3][4][5][6][7]

The school's assistant principal, Joel Myrick, retrieved a .45 pistol from his truck and, spotting him near the parking lot, shouted for Woodham to stop. Woodham instead got into a his mother's car and tried to escape. Myrick, a US Army Reserve commander, detained Woodham until authorities arrived.


School Principal stops violent killer


Quote:
According to Bridges: at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to retrieve their personally-owned firearms[6] placed in their glove compartments. Mikael Gross, a police officer from Grifton, North Carolina retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[7] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, North Carolina[8] retrieved his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.[9] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[10] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.


Armed Students Stop Armed Killer

Quote:
Two church members were shot to death and three others were injured after a gunman opened fire outside the New Life Church in Colorado Springs as Sunday services were wrapping up.

The gunman was shot by a church female security officer and was found dead when police arrived at the scene, said Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers.

Police did not release the name of the security guard but said she "probably saved many lives today."

"It's a tragedy that could have been much worse than it was," the police chief admitted.


Armed Security Guard Saves Lives

MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:10:51 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,068
Location: United States


loveslegs
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2012 5:41:34 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/4/2011
Posts: 1,832
Location: Greece
it always bugged me why there is little (or no) news of people getting killed in random citizent assaults from any other country around the globe except from the us....

then again.... no other country around the glove except for the us has such liberal gun laws...

ah well... must be just a coincidence
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