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Poll Question : Should obese people be classified as disabled?
Choice Votes Statistics
Yes, poor guys can't help it pork tastes so good 1 3 %
Yes, only if it's a medical condition 16 61 %
No way, it's usually self-inflicted 9 34 %

Should obese people be classified as disabled? Options · View
mrplow
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 3:06:48 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/5/2007
Posts: 1,030
Location: Here and now
I think this is ridiculous: http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1363388/obese-fans-to-be-offered-2014-world-cup-tickets?cc=3436

It's almost like rewarding someone for being a glutton.

Quote:
Obese fans to be offered World Cup tickets

FIFA has told the Associated Press that obese fans will be offered special tickets at the 2014 World Cup in Brazil.

Under Brazilian legislation at least 1% of seats in each stadium are to be made available for people with disabilities, including those classified as obese.

FIFA confirmed it is the "first time tickets for obese people are offered at a FIFA event", with supporters from all nations entitled to the tickets, which will also be available for June's Confederations Cup.


I've even heard it being called a "disease".

A friend of mine is a doctor. He told me that only roughly 10% of obese people, have a medical condition, which causes it. That means that 90% of obese people should simply eat less, eat better food, and do more exercise. That would solve their weight problems.

Why should I pay the same for a seat on a flight, next to an obese person who's spilling out on to my arm rest?

I think classifying obese people as disabled, kind of protects them from facing up to the real issues, and the problems that obesity causes.

Disabled, my ass. Crazy.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 4:22:18 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
mrplow wrote:
I think this is ridiculous: http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1363388/obese-fans-to-be-offered-2014-world-cup-tickets?cc=3436

It's almost like rewarding someone for being a glutton.

I've even heard it being called a "disease".

A friend of mine is a doctor. He told me that only roughly 10% of obese people, have a medical condition, which causes it. That means that 90% of obese people should simply eat less, eat better food, and do more exercise. That would solve their weight problems.

Why should I pay the same for a seat on a flight, next to an obese person who's spilling out on to my arm rest?

I think classifying obese people as disabled, kind of protects them from facing up to the real issues, and the problems that obesity causes.

Disabled, my ass. Crazy.



If it were as simple as that, don't you think they would do it? If someone can eat their way to 300 or 400 lb, it's my opinion there is a medical or mental issue causing the lack of motivation and over eating. Obesity in general IS classed as a disease. Just because you have a friend who is a doctor, doesn't mean he was correct in his assumption of 10%. If you do a little research, you will find that out for yourself.

Did you know there are many reasons obesity can affect people besides 'gluttony'? It can be heredity, Psychiatric illness, hypothyroidism, Cushing's syndrome, Cushing's disease, PCOS, Edema, Insulinoma, growth hormone deficiency and the eating disorders: binge eating disorder and night eating syndrome.

Certain medications may cause weight gain or changes in body composition; these include insulin, atypical antipsychotics, antidepressants, steroids, certain anticonvulsants (phenytoin and valproate), pizotifen, sulfonylureas, thiazolidinediones, and some forms of hormonal contraception. Let's also not forget over-eating may be caused by psychological issues and brain disorders as well. There's a huge list of syndromes and disorders that may or do cause obesity. I got all this information from Wikipedia under the heading of 'Obesity'. I'm sure I could find much more if I tried.

Just because you might be sitting on a plane next to an obese person who's spilling out on to your arm rest, take a moment to consider it may not be gluttony that caused this particular case of obesity. If I were sitting on a plane next to an obese person who's spilling out on to my arm rest, I would get up, speak to a flight attendant and politely ask if there are any other seats available on the plane, and tell her why.

If there are no other seats available, you might have to dig deep into your skinny-arsed soul and find just a speck of compassion for the person sitting next to you and thank Jesus it's not you having to carry all that extra weight around. Don't think it can never happen to you because it can happen to anybody.

Are you really this indignant about obese people or are you ticked off you didn't get World Cup Tickets? just asking.


elitfromnorth
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 4:40:11 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,618
Location: Burrowed, Norway
The reasons for obesity can be a shitload of different ones, as Trinket noted above. A certain type of medication may suddenly cause you to start eating a whole lot more, believe me I've been there. And saying that it all can be solved by diet and excercise is bullocks. If you've been fat for a long time then your body has suddenly decided to change it's standard settings of weight and bodyfat to being obese. That means that if you try to work it off through the whole diet and excercise thing it's a good chance it won't work. End result is that they either need the surgery or they need one of those "Biggest Loser" type of excercise regimes, and how many can afford that?

What's equally disturbing is that in many cases, especially for families, you'll find that the less healthy groceries are cheaper than the more healthy ones. In the current economic climate where many people have to tighten the belt a bit, the less healthy one suddenly becomes a choice of necessity, not what they want.

So next time you chew your carrot and decide to judge anyone that you think isn't as worthy as you, smack yourself in the face for me and try to understand that the world isn't black and white. That it isn't as easy as you'd like it to be and that just because obesity is DIRECTLY caused by medical conditions in 10% of the cases, doesn't mean that 90% of the world's obese people are that way just because they love fast food.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:40:20 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
Mr Plow

My question is why shouldn't you pay the same? Rather than why you should pay the same. Would you then seek for a reduction in your airfare if you're a skinny mini? Good luck with arguing that case at Air...Insert Airline Name here.

There are myriad of reasons why a person may be obese, and by the way are you aware that the term obese and its classification was argued by scientist and as they couldn't agree on a figure they agreed on an arbitrary figure that suited the viewpoint of two men?, even if gluttony, as you so eloquently put it, is the cause well who are we to dictate what they can and cannot do. In response to the legislation your quote states that the Brazilian authorities are making tickets available for people with disabilities and those classified as obese, it is one of many classifications. I am sure they have also made a provision within their legislation that states "VIP" tickets will be made available, sponsor tickets will also be one of those classifications.

Disabled? No. But I am sure they were not trying to advocate that they were disabled simply that they allowed some tickets for people who were classified as being obese, just one of the many classifications, no big deal for me.

Much ado about nothing. There are far greater 21st century concerns that require attention and debate, this isn't one of them in my opinion.
Naughty_Nurse
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:44:46 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/29/2012
Posts: 597
Location: Netherlands
I think this tread is ridiculous, especially the poll.
How insulting can a person be.... You really earn a reward I think.
It shows that you are having a lot of arrogance in your arse and a narrow minded view.
I have obese patients, they suffer from people like you every day, besides the problems they have themselves with their obesita. Mostly it isn't a 'choiche' to become obese.


My newest story: Monica's Birthday turns into an unexpected orgy

Lessons from a Naugthy Nurse: Scott learns all about oral sex from his nurse
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 9:00:32 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Obesity is a giant problem. It's going to start shortening life expectancy for the first time in history, if it hasn't begun to already. As Trinket said, it's not as simple as some lazy piece of shit eating potato chips all day, though let's keep it real folks, that does happen.

But my point is: obesity is a lot of things, and is the result of a lot of things. It's a side effect of certain diseases as well as certain medicines, it's a result of physical disability, it's a result of poor food quality (due to ignorance, or budget, or stupidity), it's a result of lack of exercise, as well as a lack of proper glandular function.

The severity of the problem isn't in question by any reasonable person, but my question is: what's your axe to grind here? What does it matter to you how Brazilian officials classify disability? Yes, some people are lazy: get used to it.

You're probably a great guy, Mr. Plow, but your rant reminds me of those who get so irrationally upset about welfare fraud that they're prepared to deny it to those who really need it, all in the name of punishing the few that abuse it. Does it make you feel better to point the finger at obese people the same way these people feel more productive and virtuous by looking down their nose at welfare recipients?

Let me know if you find a way to single out those who have zero physical, financial, medical, or mental limitations yet choose to be obese for the hell of it. That would be quite a feat, but at least once that achievement is made, we can persecute and marginalize the right people.
MrLosAngeles
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 3:36:43 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/11/2013
Posts: 484
Location: Marina del Rey, United States
Maybe not considered disabled, but traffic cones around them would help sometimes.
CurlyGirly
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 3:54:32 PM

Rank: CurlyFries

Joined: 10/5/2012
Posts: 1,776
Location: United States
LadyX wrote:
Obesity is a giant problem. It's going to start shortening life expectancy for the first time in history, if it hasn't begun to already. As Trinket said, it's not as simple as some lazy piece of shit eating potato chips all day, though let's keep it real folks, that does happen.

But my point is: obesity is a lot of things, and is the result of a lot of things. It's a side effect of certain diseases as well as certain medicines, it's a result of physical disability, it's a result of poor food quality (due to ignorance, or budget, or stupidity), it's a result of lack of exercise, as well as a lack of proper glandular function.

The severity of the problem isn't in question by any reasonable person, but my question is: what's your axe to grind here? What does it matter to you how Brazilian officials classify disability? Yes, some people are lazy: get used to it.

You're probably a great guy, Mr. Plow, but your rant reminds me of those who get so irrationally upset about welfare fraud that they're prepared to deny it to those who really need it, all in the name of punishing the few that abuse it. Does it make you feel better to point the finger at obese people the same way these people feel more productive and virtuous by looking down their nose at welfare recipients?

Let me know if you find a way to single out those who have zero physical, financial, medical, or mental limitations yet choose to be obese for the hell of it. That would be quite a feat, but at least once that achievement is made, we can persecute and marginalize the right people.



Inappropriate or not, I Laughed! Out! Loud! Lfunny


To answer the OP: What Trinks and LadyX said.



It won a potato. Aren't you intrigued?



mrplow
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 4:26:20 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/5/2007
Posts: 1,030
Location: Here and now
This is the typical pandering I'd expected on a mostly US based forum. I don't wish to appear insulting to those who are obese through no fault of their own - they are in a small minority.

Obesity is a serious issue, it effects us all on a global level. There doesn't seem to be enough being done about it.

Education is the key, at grass roots levels. In schools. Canteens should serve only healthy foods. Kids should be taught about nutrition in classes. They should be told that being 100 Kg at the age of 16, is incredibly unhealthy. Have after school fat camps if necessary.

Making TV Shows about them, and putting them up for ridicule and for entertainment value like that, is obscene.

http://www.voxeu.org/article/100-years-us-obesity

Quote:
More than one billion adults across the globe are overweight, and at least 300 million are clinically obese. This column argues that the obesity epidemic in the US has been creeping up throughout the twentieth century, much earlier than the official account acknowledges. Current US standards thereby mislead many overweight and obese youth into believing that their weight is normal when it is not.


You think obesity is primarily caused by medical conditions, which have until the last few decades, hardly been heard of?

Quote:
the “creeping” nature of the epidemic, as well as its persistence, does suggest that its roots are embedded deep in the social fabric and are nourished by a network of disparate slowly changing sources as the 20th-century US population responded to a vast array of irresistible and impersonal socio-economic and technological forces.

The most obviously persistent among these were:

• the major labour-saving technological changes of the 20th century,
• the industrial processing of food and with it the spread of fast-food eateries (To illustrate the spread of fast food culture, consider that White Castle, the first drive-in restaurant, was founded in 1921. McDonald started operation in the late 1940s, Kentucky Fried Chicken in 1952, Burger King in 1954, Pizza Hut in 1958, Taco Bell in 1962, and Subway in 1962.),
• the associated culture of consumption,
• the rise of an automobile-based way of life,
• the introduction of radio and television broadcasting,
• the increasing participation of women in the work force, and
• the IT revolution.

These elements – taken together – virtually defined American society in the 20th century (Chou et al. 2008, Cutler et al. 2003, Hamermesh 2010, Lakdawalla and Philipson 2009, Offer 2006, Philipson and Posner 2003, Popkin, 2004).

Noteworthy in this regard is that the timing of the first accelerating phase after World War I among whites coincided with the spread of radios and automobiles, while the timing of the second accelerating phase of the 1950s cohorts among both blacks and whites coincided perfectly with the spread of television viewing and the spread of fast food consumption.

LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 4:31:41 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
mrplow wrote:
This is the typical pandering I'd expected on a mostly US based forum. I don't wish to appear insulting to those who are obese through no fault of their own - they are in a small minority.

Obesity is a serious issue, it effects us all on a global level. There doesn't seem to be enough being done about it.

Education is the key, at grass roots levels. In schools. Canteens should serve only healthy foods. Kids should be taught about nutrition in classes. They should be told that being 100 Kg at the age of 16, is incredibly unhealthy. Have after school fat camps if necessary.

Making TV Shows about them, and putting them up for ridicule and for entertainment value like that, is obscene.

http://www.voxeu.org/article/100-years-us-obesity



You think obesity is primarily caused by medical conditions, which have until the last few decades, hardly been heard of?




Good info there, Plow. It's a systemic problem, which as the info you posted points out, has a whole lot to do with the way western culture lives and eats. So your plan is to...what? Push back by throwing a fit over Brazil's designation of disability? Blanket-label obese people as fat lazy shits that are getting over by using their weight to score tickets to the World Cup? Or maybe something less divisive, like pushing for education, slow food, and regulations on school meals, would better serve the whole.
EDWolfe
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 4:43:13 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/5/2013
Posts: 1,033
Location: United States
This question is very personal for me, primarily because my weight and height combination is listed as obese as far as I'm able to tell. (In fact, this BMI calculator from the Department of Health and Human Services says that I have to lose about half of my body weight to get to normal BMI.) Basically, here's my take.

On the one hand, factors that contribute to obesity are not simply about eating the right foods and exercising several times a week. Thanks to federal subsidies, at least in the US (perhaps other nations), the foods that are worse for you are cheaper than the foods that are better for you. This also means that these foods are more plentiful. If a household only makes about $40,000 a year (as opposed to $140,000 a year), then they're more likely to spend their money on junk food. Personally, I have tried cutting back on my food and exercising more, and every time, I hit a wall with my weight loss.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be considered disabled myself. This is a personal opinion; I have seen people much larger than me who would welcome the disabled label. But I feel that I am fairly active. I can fit into most standard seats and chairs. Whenever I go to a place with a large parking lot, I generally park far away from the building for multiple reasons, including the extra physical activity. The job that I'm holding now is very active.

If a person doesn't have medical issues that cause their obesity, they shouldn't be considered disabled. I don't see a point in rewarding laziness, whether it's the perfectly healthy person with no dependents (read: someone who needs round-the-clock care) drawing welfare, or a person who willingly gets obese to get a better parking spot, better seats, etc. However, determining what constitutes a medical issue is tricky. Depression can contribute to obesity; one of the symptoms is weight gain, for example. There are other physical and mental health conditions that can contribute to obesity, and not all of them result in patients being universally obese.

If there is a medical reason for a person to be obese, then, yes, they should be considered disabled. I do see reason in giving ill people reasonable accommodations.

A point to the medical opinion the OP received: despite the fact that the 90/10 numbers came from a doctor, this is still a professional opinion; a different doctor could come up with different numbers. This kind of variation is why one study isn't proof that a medicine works, and multiple studies are necessary.

I fully realize that sometimes obese people are judged by people around us. After all, we don't look like the "good-looking" people on TV. In some cases, our nudity is cause for humor or disgust. In fact, people generally view obese people as disgusting.
petersr
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 6:40:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

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Posts: 50
Location: St. Petersburgh, United States
NO
MrLosAngeles
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:42:48 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/11/2013
Posts: 484
Location: Marina del Rey, United States
Unless it's a medical condition which is actually rare, the two factors which work toward obesity are diet and exercise. Particularly diet. Some people eat enormous amounts of food, much of it the wrong kind. It's the bulk and quality of the food usually. People who eat lots of mac and cheese for example, because it's cheap and "filling" are not getting anything good in their systems from it, just empty carbs which means they tend to "fill up" again with snacks and more junk food. If you cook at home and shop wisely, it's just as inexpensive as buying crates of junk. A small salad or a piece of fruit for lunch should be enough. A healthy breakfast like toast and an egg or oatmeal and fruit juice really provides enough vitamins and minerals. What it doesn't provide is the "bulk" of pancakes, bacon or sausage, eggs, muffin/toast, and potatoes. Like diabetics (my father, for example) one of the keys is to eat much smaller meals more frequently to help the metabolism process. Smaller portions of the same foods can be healthy. But the people who sit down, say at a Lucille's BBQ. to eat half a chicken or platter of ribs, two biscuits, a heap of cole slaw, an ear of corn, gravy, and a mountain of mashed potatoes, washed down by pints of soft drink, and followed by a big dessert and then complain they can't lose weight are absurd at best. Fresh produce is not that expensive and healthy because you need less of it than the frozen entrees or canned stuff. People who say they can't healthy because they don't have time are fooling themselves, too. In less than twenty minutes you can cook almost anything, in about an hour you can do proper casseroles, baked potato, or roast chicken. And it's not as if you have to "waste the cooking time" doing nothing else, either. As for exercise, even just a walk around the block per day gets the metabolism shifted, but if you're sitting on your ass on the Net or watching television, yes, you're going to stay obese.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 3:01:26 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
Mr Plow

I see that you don't wish to be insulting to those people who are obese through no fault of their own, how magnanimous. What about those who are obese, do you wish to insult them? And if so, to what end will this insult lead?

You mention pandering, I see something else, awareness, understanding, compassion, the reality that life in the 21st century isn't black and white, and whilst obesity may well be a serious issue there is no benefit to be gained by lambasting people who are deemed to be obese.

There isn't a problem in the world that will be solved by others pointing and laughing, marginalising and being insulting, there are numerous reasons as to why people may be overweight, indeed one of those may be laziness and eating the wrong foods, however, I'm fairly certain that no single person woke up one morning and said "You know what world, I'm going to be obese, I'm going to eat so much that people will stop and stare, point and laugh, yes that is what I'm going to do today".

The real problem with the world today is that we believe all problems can be addressed by one single brush stroke, we can solve obesity by ridiculing and shaming people into being normal (Who decides on normal by the way) we can solve the binge drinking problem in the UK by increasing the unit cost of alcohol (as the majority of people binge drinking are middle class working people this seems unlikely to have any impact)

My final point it this, your question wasn't about whether obesity is a serious problem, your original point was should the Brazilian authorities set aside tickets for people who were classified (arbitrarily) as obese. And linking this to disability. Had you sought to voice your concern about the growing problem of obesity and what could we do about it you would, I am sure, have received responses that didn't "Pander".


I can guarantee that each and every person that has a weight problem will have a range of contributory factors, even the so called lazy one's, from social, environmental, political, health, financial/economical factors and not forgetting the emotional/mental well being factors that exist in the 21st century.

I'll pander and see the whole picture, not a skewed and limited view.

mrplow
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 3:24:06 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/5/2007
Posts: 1,030
Location: Here and now
Thank you for the replies.

It was probably ill-judged of me to perhaps use that headline as the catalyst for my post, but after being squashed in an international flight recently (after being charged $20 per kg extra in luggage - when the guy sitting next to me weighed at least another 50 kg), and then seeing ads for "The Biggest Loser", almost as if it were glorifying the whole issue, I snapped.

I thought "What's eating Gilbert Grape" would put this incredibly important issue in the limelight. Guess what happened? Nothing.

30% of adults in the developed world are classified as obese, and all I see around me are people trying to 'protect their rights" or some other bs.

They are obese. Nearly all of them are that way through choice. Educate people, help them, help society. Don't put them on game shows for public mockery, it belittles us all.
mynameisearl
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 4:33:28 AM

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Joined: 2/17/2013
Posts: 284
Location: its a secret, United States
no
JohnnyE
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 4:42:41 AM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 3/3/2013
Posts: 14
Location: central, United States
My 2 cents It's a bit difficult for me to understand how you guys, of all people, would talk and make fun of people who are a bit different. It sounds as though your better than they are. When I first looked over the site I noticed there wasn't a BBW or BBP category, guess I found out why. How many people look at your choice of sexual exploitation is wrong and is a mental disorder? I've read some bits on here about those who know they have addiction problems, obesity is the same for some. And yes, attitudes like yours are a part of the problem they address depression and other issues by eating and not exercising.

Can we get a BBP (big beautiful people) category and use this site to get them into a better mind set so they may even take advantage of weight loss programs, Hugs maybe sexersize will be the first step to a healthier life for them. But complaining and degrading them only makes the issue worse, not go away.

Some of the best sex I've had have been with larger women. Found that they are open and creative in many areas of their lives, sex is only one.

Now for those who address the bootyshake bottom line, do you writers out there want to turn off a potential readership? There is already a strong market for images and stories of larger people. So why not bates tap into a new audience and maybe make a difference in someone's life? b229
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 5:02:24 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
Wow a lot of generalities posted here... mostly by those who want to somehow attack the facts and those who are saying something not PC. This was NOT about whether "larger" ladies/people are BAD or UGLY or whatever. It was whether obesity should be classified as a disability. And there is a very large range of sizes and even body types within what is medically and socially considered over-weight. Heck, I am considered "over-weight" by medical standards. Do I LOOK over-weight? NO.

BBWs are not the issue here and frankly I can't see how comments made should turn off any potential readership? Are we THAT shallow here? I don't think so. And I personally love women of all sizes, within a very wide range, excluding the VERY thin and the morbidly obese. That my friends leaves the vast majority of women.

Again, the question was about making obesity a disability, and like some pointed out, the issue is not really so cut and dry. But for the vast majority of people who qualify under medical terms for being obese, NO (IMO) it should not. That does not mean that some in the extremes would not qualify as being disabled, but IMO it is not simply because of their weight/size, it is because of their lack of movement and ability to operate within a normal range of activities.

I think some here are just getting worked up and defensive over... nothing. And those who stated their views that are not the same as theirs was are NOT bad people or deserve to be put down or chastised for their views. It was a question, and people answered it.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:19:29 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
JohnC

Mr Plow may not have said that obese people were ugly or bad or whatever, nevertheless there was a tacit implication that obese people were not his favourite "Classification" he was pissed at having to sit next to an obese guy who was 50kgs heavier than he was and he was doubly pissed at having to pay excess baggage for his luggage. Being pissed at life events is part of the rich tapestry that we call life, who can really be annoyed with someone for having a bad experience, certainly not me.

Occasionally one can only match generalisations with generalisations, the think tank would be a little dour if we didn't get worked up and felt strong enough in our views to comment, whether defensive or not.

The perceived problem of obesity does indeed require some real thought and consideration, the problem won't be resolved with one course of action, it will take a whole series of factors to be introduced, from the price of food, to politics, to education, to economics and to our perception of human beings. If we can refrain from labeling people and ensure that all human beings are treated with respect, dignity, care, and compassion then the obesity problem will become an easier obstacle to overcome.

Facts are quite often statistics dressed up as truths, and we all know that statistics can be provided to prove or disprove any theory or concept.

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:48:06 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
Fair enough Orangefox444, but I think my post showed that there was room for both sides on this issue to think about what, and how they posted.

Many times neither side can truly take a high ground, because it is based on opinions, and less so when those opinions are stated as poorly and judgmentally as those they claim to be so upset about. It is like someone stepping on a toe and another person taking a shovel and bashing them over the head for doing so... while claiming to be the more "tolerant" and "kind" person. I see it all the time, the chastising and pointing out of things being judgmental and possibly mean, is as bad, if not worse than the "offense" itself was. That was really my point... if people are going to take a stand, make sure they don't do the same types of things they are complaining about.

I also see that people pick their targets of outrage. ;) Several people can say darn near the same things, and only ONE will be called on the carpet for it. Or in fact some can saw more or WORSE than the person being called on the carpet. People focus on buzz words and phrases they may not like (or an easier target), and not the real content of what was being said.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:51:44 AM

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Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,268
Location: West Coast
I think disability is related to how able-bodied a person is. It doesn't matter to me how they got to that point (whether it was by their own hand, a medical issue, an accident, or whatever) - if the end result means that they are impaired/limited/restricted - then they are disabled.

We're talking about a very small percentage of obese people that would qualify for that category. It's not the average 'large person' - we're talking about clinical morbid obesity. I'm sure it's not a 'high-five' moment for them either to be qualified as disabled.


niceguy89
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:58:03 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: -24
Location: Texas, United States
I am an obese man. Do I consider myself disabled? Not even a little bit. Every pound I gained was due to my poor choices. Sometimes spending as much as two hundred a month on fast food. Just for me! Gawed damn I'm a sorry excuse for a human being. Two years ago I broke the scales at 537 lbs. I could break a sweat by walking to the mailbox. It was the lowest I have ever sunk. So I started to work on my issues. Joined a gym, stopped eating out, and made better overall choices. It was hard at first. In fact every day is a struggle. Yet I have lost close to 80lbs. Just by using common sense in planning my meals. My plan is to increase my workouts and be under 350 before this year is over. Being fat is not a disease. It is a buffet of bad choices.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:04:44 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
Dancing_Doll wrote:
I think disability is related to how able-bodied a person is. It doesn't matter to me how they got to that point (whether it was by their own hand, a medical issue, an accident, or whatever) - if the end result means that they are impaired/limited/restricted - then they are disabled.

We're talking about a very small percentage of obese people that would qualify for that category. It's not the average 'large person' - we're talking about clinical morbid obesity. I'm sure it's not a 'high-five' moment for them either to be qualified as disabled.

Agreed.

With that said, we do see that society in general has made a switch to not only normalize obesity, but condone and even punish anyone who dares point out that someone IS obese and that the vast majority of them are not that way because of a valid medical condition. Most medical conditions are caused by the obesity, not the other way around. We live in a world that has high food intake and lower physical activity. That is the base cause for the weight issues we see, in general. But it is not EASY for most people to modify their behaviors because as a species do as little as possible and whatever makes us feel the best in the moment.

Now, of course, that is not an insult to obese people or people of size at all. Nor does it say that I (or those who point it out) are trying to ridicule, pick on, demean, or even dislike (mentally or physically) those who are on the heavier side. But that tends to be how it is seen by some.

And of course it would not be unfair to charge a person who takes up two seats on an airliner for both seats. Heck, we see different prices for clothing sizes as well... rightfully so. So there are a lot of issues that were brought up in this thread that are valid, but aside from the base question of whether obesity should be classified as a disability in general. As you pointed out, the disability should always be the actual disability, not the CAUSE of that disability.

NICEGUY89 - thank you for your post too. I agree as well... for the most part. There are, at times true medical issues which are major contributors to obesity, but overall, that is not the case.
LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:43:39 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
JohnC wrote:


I also see that people pick their targets of outrage. ;) Several people can say darn near the same things, and only ONE will be called on the carpet for it. Or in fact some can saw more or WORSE than the person being called on the carpet. People focus on buzz words and phrases they may not like (or an easier target), and not the real content of what was being said.


Words and context matter. You're a smart guy; you know that nowhere in life does everyone or everything get viewed under the same lens. So of course reaction depends on what's said and who said it. "Buzz words" are known as such for a reason: they elicit response, and change the tone of the message. They're every bit as worthy of discussion as the purported subject at large.

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:50:18 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
LadyX wrote:


Words and context matter. You're a smart guy; you know that nowhere in life does everyone or everything get viewed under the same lens. So of course reaction depends on what's said and who said it. "Buzz words" are known as such for a reason: they elicit response, and change the tone of the message. That's every bit as worthy of discussion as the purported subject at large.


Indeed... but pointing it out is not bad either. It just brings focus. When HOW something is said, as opposed to actual intent or content becomes the focus, the discussion IMO gets sidetracked. It becomes about presentation as opposed to what is actually on the plate. So yes, it does matter. But it should not (IMO) be the focus, nor create a situation where things become personal or the actual point of discussion gets lost in style and semantics debates/discussions. And I think we both know THAT happens a lot here. LOL

(Sort of like this little side discussion... but this one is a POSITIVE one.)
LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:53:18 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,827
Perhaps, but all things considered, this discussion is a pretty healthy one. When you use language and examples like he did, they'll draw attention. It gets a little rough and raw in here from time to time, but Think Tank is known and designated for it at least. The public's been warned! :)
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 8:04:01 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
JonhC

The original post was indeed about Mr Plow's assertion that he felt that the Brazilian authorities were wrong for setting aside some world cup tickets for disabled people, within this group there was an indication that obese people were going ot be included in this group.

Mr Plow in his post wasn't very happy about this and he railed against classifying obese people as being disabled, fair enough, no problem whatsoever with that sentiment.

Mr Plow then had a little rant about obesity and threw in one or two comments which were less than complimentary, again fair enough, we all have big boy and girl pants, we can cope with this.

Several people commented that there are occasions when obesity is not as a result of laziness and over eating and a lack of exercise, and that mental health, physical health, environmental, social, political and economical factors that really should be considered before one makes sweeping generalisations (something that you don't like to see JohnC) about one particular, often marginalised group of people.

Comments flowed, people offered opinions and insights based on their own perspectives, perhaps one could (although I wouldn't) say that the tone may have been defensive or attacked one individuals standpoint, again this is fair enough, we are all adults and can interpret as we see fit.

Subsequently Mr Plow provided some context to his comment, he had been on a flight and had to pay excess baggage fees and the guy next to him was 50kg heavier than he was (Mr Plow) again no real issue here, we can all rant and rave about perceived unfairness, injustice and so on.

The issue of world cup tickets and disability did perhaps lose ground to the facts or untruths relating to obesity, further comment from myself merely pointed out that the issue of obesity will not be resolved with one single action, a diverse range of action/education/will, political and individual, will be needed to resolve the issue. Again no real problem there, Mr Plow agreed that he was perhaps ill judged in posting in view of his recent experiences, no one castigated him for his experiences or views, they simply offered another perspective.

I'm not sure that society has normalised obesity, perhaps in the US, certainly not here in the UK, hardly a day goes by without some reference to obesity, in fact one GP who appears on TV almost always states that being overweight is the root cause for every illness that is under discussion, I have bets with myself and family/friends as to when they will say "Obesity" and its a weight/fat problem.
So I personally don't hold that society has normalised it at all, in fact it is perhaps worse in some instances. Now I do accept that the PC brigade come out and offer some protection for people and this can on occasions create ultra sensitivity, this is something that requires courage and compassion to resolve.

As for obesity I still maintain and hold firm that people should not be labelled, (In the main I really don't like the way that our world has this unquenchable/insatiable desire to label people, and this is my real objection to be fair) and the issues of the world could be better addressed with a little more compassion and empathy and see that no problem we humans face is simple, easy to solve, or black and white for all cases and we show understanding when we attempt to resolve any of the difficulties that human beings face. Now that doesn't mean that we cannot offer views that may be seen as extreme, simplistic or easy to solve, but in doing so we consider that the human race is unique and there isn't a solution that will work for ALL people.

Each individual has unique experiences and a set of beliefs and values that make them who they are, we cannot overlook the power of our environment, our education, our experiences of life and the impact that society has upon people.

I do think "Pointing it out" is a bad thing, unless you are 100 % certain that the person you are pointing it out to doesn't know they are overweight/obese, this seems unlikely however. It is akin to pointing out to every black haired person that they have black hair, or that people who wear glasses have spectacles on, no value at all in stating the bleeding obvious.

Furthermore, I personally do not agree that airlines should charge extra, the analogy of clothing is perhaps moot, as we can choose to purchase the smaller item of clothing if we see fit, we wouldn't have that choice in the case of airline seats. Would you agree then that those people who are "Very thin and hardly weigh anything at all" be granted a reduction on said airplane?

The same of course goes for semantics/out of context statements/overreactions and the like, the whole point of posting is to elicit responses.

In summary, obesity will not in my opinion be resolved by marginalising and labeling one particular group of people. And in some instances Obesity could be defined as being a disability no matter how the person became obese, circumstances alter cases.

PS

Apologies for the long winded response

vampiric_demigod
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 8:06:38 AM

Rank: Rookie Scribe

Joined: 7/23/2011
Posts: 4
Location: New Delhi, India
If someone was really drunk and crashed their car, injuring their spine and losing sensation in their legs would you not consider them disabled? It was their own fault wasn't it?

Obese people are not able to enjoy many of the joys that ordinary people take for granted so by definition they are disabled. Of course I understand where you are coming from in that they can reverse the damage through hard work and perhaps people are a bit harsh on you. Fact remains though that controlled trials have shown that it is very difficult to lose weight and even more difficult to maintain the weight loss if you manage it.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 8:28:08 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 534,741
orangefox444 wrote:
JonhC

The original post was indeed about Mr Plow's assertion that he felt that the Brazilian authorities were wrong for setting aside some world cup tickets for disabled people, within this group there was an indication that obese people were going ot be included in this group.

Mr Plow in his post wasn't very happy about this and he railed against classifying obese people as being disabled, fair enough, no problem whatsoever with that sentiment.

Mr Plow then had a little rant about obesity and threw in one or two comments which were less than complimentary, again fair enough, we all have big boy and girl pants, we can cope with this.

Several people commented that there are occasions when obesity is not as a result of laziness and over eating and a lack of exercise, and that mental health, physical health, environmental, social, political and economical factors that really should be considered before one makes sweeping generalisations (something that you don't like to see JohnC) about one particular, often marginalised group of people.

Comments flowed, people offered opinions and insights based on their own perspectives, perhaps one could (although I wouldn't) say that the tone may have been defensive or attacked one individuals standpoint, again this is fair enough, we are all adults and can interpret as we see fit.

Subsequently Mr Plow provided some context to his comment, he had been on a flight and had to pay excess baggage fees and the guy next to him was 50kg heavier than he was (Mr Plow) again no real issue here, we can all rant and rave about perceived unfairness, injustice and so on.

The issue of world cup tickets and disability did perhaps lose ground to the facts or untruths relating to obesity, further comment from myself merely pointed out that the issue of obesity will not be resolved with one single action, a diverse range of action/education/will, political and individual, will be needed to resolve the issue. Again no real problem there, Mr Plow agreed that he was perhaps ill judged in posting in view of his recent experiences, no one castigated him for his experiences or views, they simply offered another perspective.

I'm not sure that society has normalised obesity, perhaps in the US, certainly not here in the UK, hardly a day goes by without some reference to obesity, in fact one GP who appears on TV almost always states that being overweight is the root cause for every illness that is under discussion, I have bets with myself and family/friends as to when they will say "Obesity" and its a weight/fat problem.
So I personally don't hold that society has normalised it at all, in fact it is perhaps worse in some instances. Now I do accept that the PC brigade come out and offer some protection for people and this can on occasions create ultra sensitivity, this is something that requires courage and compassion to resolve.

As for obesity I still maintain and hold firm that people should not be labelled, (In the main I really don't like the way that our world has this unquenchable/insatiable desire to label people, and this is my real objection to be fair) and the issues of the world could be better addressed with a little more compassion and empathy and see that no problem we humans face is simple, easy to solve, or black and white for all cases and we show understanding when we attempt to resolve any of the difficulties that human beings face. Now that doesn't mean that we cannot offer views that may be seen as extreme, simplistic or easy to solve, but in doing so we consider that the human race is unique and there isn't a solution that will work for ALL people.

Each individual has unique experiences and a set of beliefs and values that make them who they are, we cannot overlook the power of our environment, our education, our experiences of life and the impact that society has upon people.

I do think "Pointing it out" is a bad thing, unless you are 100 % certain that the person you are pointing it out to doesn't know they are overweight/obese, this seems unlikely however. It is akin to pointing out to every black haired person that they have black hair, or that people who wear glasses have spectacles on, no value at all in stating the bleeding obvious.

Furthermore, I personally do not agree that airlines should charge extra, the analogy of clothing is perhaps moot, as we can choose to purchase the smaller item of clothing if we see fit, we wouldn't have that choice in the case of airline seats. Would you agree then that those people who are "Very thin and hardly weigh anything at all" be granted a reduction on said airplane?

The same of course goes for semantics/out of context statements/overreactions and the like, the whole point of posting is to elicit responses.

In summary, obesity will not in my opinion be resolved by marginalising and labeling one particular group of people. And in some instances Obesity could be defined as being a disability no matter how the person became obese, circumstances alter cases.

PS

Apologies for the long winded response


I don't live in the UK, so I can't speak for that... but in the US it is. The US has been on a PC stint for quite some time now and that issue is one of them. And it does not help. But it has gotten to the point now where some of that is starting to turn around and focus on being healthy is coming back into play as opposed to "feeling good about yourself". I personally think you can have BOTH. But we went through a time where it was ONLY about how you felt emotionally. Just like not allowing trophies for winning, or giving EVERYONE a trophy for simply being there, etc. These attitudes IMO are linked, and oh so dangerous.

As for airlines, I don't think they should charge extra for WEIGHT, but for SIZE. If a person needs two seats, they should pay for two. And no, I don't think a thin person should be charged less. Again, it comes down to the seating used, not their weight or how much of the seat they use.

I don't agree though that obesity can be or should be defined as a disability, but that might be semantics? I think the actual disability of not being able to do things can be, but not the cause. Just like an auto accident isn't labeled as a disability, but any injuries COULD be. I think putting the label of "disability" for WEIGHT and SIZE is dangerous and leads to excuses, and over-use of the term. There are plenty of people who are obese that are not "disabled" and they live lives doing the same things as the rest of us. Maybe a bit slower (sometimes not), and maybe with some more effort on their part (sometimes not), but they are far from being disabled. And personally I think "disabled" is used far too often (at least here in the US) anyways. Everyone seems to want a label, special classification, special treatment, and so on. And soon, if it continues, everyone will have SOME "label" or diagnosis for SOMETHING, and what would any of them mean any more? LOL I mean seriously. dontknow

And no worries for being long winded.... you had a lot to say. occasion5
EDWolfe
Posted: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 8:43:32 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/5/2013
Posts: 1,033
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:
I think disability is related to how able-bodied a person is. It doesn't matter to me how they got to that point (whether it was by their own hand, a medical issue, an accident, or whatever) - if the end result means that they are impaired/limited/restricted - then they are disabled.

We're talking about a very small percentage of obese people that would qualify for that category. It's not the average 'large person' - we're talking about clinical morbid obesity. I'm sure it's not a 'high-five' moment for them either to be qualified as disabled.


After reading this, I would have to say that this does make more sense. If a person is having issues moving around because of weight, I believe that some form of underlying medical condition is at work. I believe that no one would willingly eat and eat until they weighed 500 pounds (227 kg), unless there was some form of medical condition. I do realize that I could be wrong about this (again, I'm not a medical pro), but I don't believe I am.
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