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Guest
Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2013 4:51:49 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
I know the think tank and just life in general has been rather focused on guns as of late but I wanted to get Lush's opinion on The Liberator. The Liberator is a file that when downloaded gives people the ability to print their own functional firearm with any 3D printer. As of right now if you go to the site above, you'll see that the US government has taken down the file. Of course I'm sure you could still find it elsewhere, but the official download has been removed. What are your thoughts on A) the weapon itself (and the fact that it can simply be printed) and B) the US government's seizure of the download file?
Guest
Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:02:32 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
I am damn grateful the govt. took it down. However, I also heard that a million downloads occurred before they shut it down. Damn, here we are in a debate about making sure guns don't get in the hands of the wrong people and some ass throws a wrench in the works. The news report I saw described how the gun requires a very small metal shaft. The guy said it is so small that it probably could get through a metal detector. I don't know if thats true or bogus. When they traveled with it they had an over-sized metal shaft because they did not want to be seen as trying to smuggle anything. I think there are other weapons they have for 3D download like military style rifles. Don't know what kind they were.

Yikes!!!
Kitanica
Posted: Saturday, May 11, 2013 10:59:12 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 881
Location: The Sprawl, United States
It fires once if your lucky. it's a small caliber round. I don't have a problem with it.
I'd rather go out and buy 6 guns then spend then 3000$ on a printer to make one.
It's not like it's new or hasn't been thought of before. People like to over react, and really who owns
a 3d printer? Theres still so much to be done there to make them worthwhile.
Though it's just another example of how revolutionary 3d printers are and how they will affect the world.
Getting closer to post scarcity.

And you couldnt make a rifle with it, you'd need too many parts that would break and firing large caliber rounds in quick succession would melt plastic. That's just silly. Rifles are less dangerous than handguns anyway. That's why hand guns kill more than rifles. small conceable and cheap wins the day.
The liberator messed up after 1 shot and the barrel broke after two shots, if you tried to do anything bigger your likely to hurt yourself before your going to hurt anyone.

The government had every right to take it down, the guys a self proclaimed anarchist and is offering an unreliable uncertified product.
Guns are supposed to be tested, checked, approved. you can't do that on a printer.
It's like a car, you can't just build your own and sell it to someone, it has to meet certain standards and pass collison and safety tests.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 1:03:06 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
Kitanica wrote:
It fires once if your lucky. it's a small caliber round. I don't have a problem with it.
I'd rather go out and buy 6 guns then spend then 3000$ on a printer to make one.
It's not like it's new or hasn't been thought of before. People like to over react, and really who owns
a 3d printer? Theres still so much to be done there to make them worthwhile.
Though it's just another example of how revolutionary 3d printers are and how they will affect the world.
Getting closer to post scarcity.

And you couldnt make a rifle with it, you'd need too many parts that would break and firing large caliber rounds in quick succession would melt plastic. That's just silly. Rifles are less dangerous than handguns anyway. That's why hand guns kill more than rifles. small conceable and cheap wins the day.
The liberator messed up after 1 shot and the barrel broke after two shots, if you tried to do anything bigger your likely to hurt yourself before your going to hurt anyone.

The government had every right to take it down, the guys a self proclaimed anarchist and is offering an unreliable uncertified product.
Guns are supposed to be tested, checked, approved. you can't do that on a printer.
It's like a car, you can't just build your own and sell it to someone, it has to meet certain standards and pass collison and safety tests.



Technology goes sailing down the road...

http://youtu.be/SZRUpmMIQy8

This is 24 minutes long but it is harrowing.

http://youtu.be/DconsfGsXyA

They have 3d automatic machine guns...now. And the technology is getting only better.

elitfromnorth
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 6:17:23 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
Posts: 1,620
Location: Burrowed, Norway
If I'm not mistaken I read somewhere that by making it available for people outside the US he broke some kind of arms trade act thingamagjing, so basically they took down a site that broke the law. If you ship out a weapon in pieces to one guy, you're still shipping out a weapon since he already have all the parts. Shame they were too late to stop him.

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 6:36:57 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 881
Location: The Sprawl, United States
Kristind wrote:



Technology goes sailing down the road...

http://youtu.be/SZRUpmMIQy8

This is 24 minutes long but it is harrowing.

http://youtu.be/DconsfGsXyA

They have 3d automatic machine guns...now. And the technology is getting only better.



Where was the machine gun in that video? I kept waiting but I didn't see one... and machine guns are illegal unless your willing to pay out the ass for them and file lots of paperwork was the atf. thousands of dollars per gun. People who pay that don't go out and shoot people.

If there were automatic weapons made of plastic it would be on the news and not the gun firing one shot. both videos had semi autos not autos. neither were 3d printed.
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 6:37:59 AM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 881
Location: The Sprawl, United States
Double post.
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 6:49:56 AM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
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Location: The Sprawl, United States
elitfromnorth wrote:
If I'm not mistaken I read somewhere that by making it available for people outside the US he broke some kind of arms trade act thingamagjing, so basically they took down a site that broke the law. If you ship out a weapon in pieces to one guy, you're still shipping out a weapon since he already have all the parts. Shame they were too late to stop him.


I haven't heard about that, i know the DoD sent him a cease and desist and he took the liberator blueprints down by Thursday.
elitfromnorth
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 6:57:48 AM

Rank: Brawling Berserker

Joined: 2/12/2012
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Location: Burrowed, Norway
Kitanica wrote:


I haven't heard about that, i know the DoD sent him a cease and desist and he took the liberator blueprints down by Thursday.


Well, surely the US has some kind of restrictions on what kind of weapons can and can't be sold abroad. Otherwise you'll have North Korea buying F-35's...

"It's at that point you realise Lady Luck is actually a hooker, and you're fresh out of cash."
Buz
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:00:45 AM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,834
Location: Atlanta, United States
Right now guns made from those 3D printers can only be shot a few times before they break down. No doubt though, technology will soon rectify that. But even the capability to fire just a few shots is all some terrorist or total nut case needs to wreak havoc on an airliner, bus, transit train or group of people.



Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:55:57 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
Kitanica wrote:


Where was the machine gun in that video? I kept waiting but I didn't see one... and machine guns are illegal unless your willing to pay out the ass for them and file lots of paperwork was the atf. thousands of dollars per gun. People who pay that don't go out and shoot people.

If there were automatic weapons made of plastic it would be on the news and not the gun firing one shot. both videos had semi autos not autos. neither were 3d printed.


I guess the action wasn't in automatic mode. It was single shot. What I wanted to address was that you said a rifle had too many parts and would melt. I wanted to show you that in fact they do have a rifle that shot 30 bullets and the weapon didn't melt down. With technology sailing this far I 'd bet automatic is not far off.
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 8:28:07 AM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
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Location: The Sprawl, United States
I'm having browser problems ignore this post
Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 8:36:10 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
Buz wrote:
Right now guns made from those 3D printers can only be shot a few times before they break down. No doubt though, technology will soon rectify that. But even the capability to fire just a few shots is all some terrorist or total nut case needs to wreak havoc on an airliner, bus, transit train or group of people.



I couldn't agree more thats what really scared me. The fact that the only metal piece required probably won't be picked up by a metal detector is terrifying. Even a small caliber round can wreak havoc on a crowded and confined space like a bus or airplane!
Kitanica
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 8:44:12 AM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
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Location: The Sprawl, United States
Kristind wrote:


I guess the action wasn't in automatic mode. It was single shot. What I wanted to address was that you said a rifle had too many parts and would melt. I wanted to show you that in fact they do have a rifle that shot 30 bullets and the weapon didn't melt down. With technology sailing this far I 'd bet automatic is not far off.



Only one part out of 200 was printed. there are so many things to overcome.
I believe the lower receiver is 67. 63 looks like a pin. the part they printed is the simplest of the gun.
The liberator barrel broke after 1 shot of one of the smallest callibers. It's fractured enough on the second shot that he retired the gun. there's no way your going to get multiple fires out of a larger caliber bullet without melting, warping, or breaking the barrel unless major changes are made. That's only one problem of many. the liberators only 15 pieces and is more of a cannon.
I think it's even muzzle loaded. a rifle would use a magazine and automatically cycle each round in after being fired.

If anything the liberator is safer. I'd rather have a crazy on an airplane with an unreliable gun that fires once or twice.
You can't hijack an airplane with one bullet. there's 200 people that are going to bumrush you the second you fire. Zero terror if you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about the situation.
Kinky_Becky
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 8:45:00 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/10/2012
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Location: Home, United States
If you wanted a plastic gun, wouldn't it just be easier to make a plastic mold and reproduce them? I remember seeing an article about 3D printers and the things took hours or even days to print something. If you made a mold, you could make them much faster. To put it more clearly, if you can make a weapon out of plastic that can't be detected with a metal detector, it could just as easily, or perhaps more easily, using a mold. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Of course it would be horrible that people could make a weapon that could foil our security measures. I may be wrong, but it seems a gun is useless without bullets. Are they firing plastic bullets too? If so, seems to me the best solution would be to outlaw plastic. I mean, what would be next? Someone printing tanks, battleships, stealth bombers, etc.



Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 8:59:54 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
Kinky_Becky wrote:
If you wanted a plastic gun, wouldn't it just be easier to make a plastic mold and reproduce them? I remember seeing an article about 3D printers and the things took hours or even days to print something. If you made a mold, you could make them much faster. To put it more clearly, if you can make a weapon out of plastic that can't be detected with a metal detector, it could just as easily, or perhaps more easily, using a mold. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Of course it would be horrible that people could make a weapon that could foil our security measures. I may be wrong, but it seems a gun is useless without bullets. Are they firing plastic bullets too? If so, seems to me the best solution would be to outlaw plastic. I mean, what would be next? Someone printing tanks, battleships, stealth bombers, etc.



I think because they require a lot or moving pieces precisely created that a mold wouldn't work. But I could be wrong.

I absolutely love your signature by the way! One of my all time favorite shows!!
MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 10:05:55 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,141
Location: United States
Kristind wrote:


I guess the action wasn't in automatic mode. It was single shot. What I wanted to address was that you said a rifle had too many parts and would melt. I wanted to show you that in fact they do have a rifle that shot 30 bullets and the weapon didn't melt down. With technology sailing this far I 'd bet automatic is not far off.


The state of the art in plastics today isn't good enough to make an entire rifle. The barrel, springs, upper receiver, gas tube, bolt carrier group, recoil buffer - in short, all the components of a firearm that have to withstand the thousands of CUP of pressure the act of firing produces have to be made of metal. If you tried to make them of plastic, the whole thing would explode in the shooter's face.

Not only is "automatic" impossible, "semi-automatic" is impossible also.

What's scary is that there are people who are convinced the same as you are, and those people write our laws (and vote on them).

MrNudiePants
Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2013 10:10:08 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,141
Location: United States
Kinky_Becky wrote:
If you wanted a plastic gun, wouldn't it just be easier to make a plastic mold and reproduce them? I remember seeing an article about 3D printers and the things took hours or even days to print something. If you made a mold, you could make them much faster. To put it more clearly, if you can make a weapon out of plastic that can't be detected with a metal detector, it could just as easily, or perhaps more easily, using a mold. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Of course it would be horrible that people could make a weapon that could foil our security measures. I may be wrong, but it seems a gun is useless without bullets. Are they firing plastic bullets too? If so, seems to me the best solution would be to outlaw plastic. I mean, what would be next? Someone printing tanks, battleships, stealth bombers, etc.



They would have to make plastic bullets, plastic shell casings, plastic primers, and a plastic barrel strong enough to hold in all that pressure. Plus, they'd have to make a propellant that can't be detected by either the explosives trace-detection portal machines, or the bomb dogs. And bomb dogs can smell the gunpowder in a conventional round. It may be possible to fool them, but it would be difficult. It would be a helluva lot easier to just get a mole employed in whatever venue you wanted to attack, and let him smuggle some real guns in.

Guest
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 7:15:58 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
MrNudiePants wrote:

What's scary is that there are people who are convinced the same as you are, and those people write our laws (and vote on them).


No, whats scary is the thought that a gun made up almost entirely out of plastic can fire off even one shot. As @Buz and I have said that could very quickly wreak havoc. The other scary part of all of this is that 3d printers are becoming cheaper and the plastic is becoming more and more durable.

As angry as you are about "Obama coming to take your guns" you have to understand that not everyone who makes laws is an idiot. Can you really sit behind your keyboard and tell me that there should not be laws in place governing the PRINTING of a firearm? dontknow
Guest
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:22:57 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
MrNudiePants wrote:


The state of the art in plastics today isn't good enough to make an entire rifle. The barrel, springs, upper receiver, gas tube, bolt carrier group, recoil buffer - in short, all the components of a firearm that have to withstand the thousands of CUP of pressure the act of firing produces have to be made of metal. If you tried to make them of plastic, the whole thing would explode in the shooter's face.

Not only is "automatic" impossible, "semi-automatic" is impossible also.

What's scary is that there are people who are convinced the same as you are, and those people write our laws (and vote on them).


So, "not only is automatic impossible, semi-automatic is impossible also. I posted two videos that challenged this in hopes that posters, like you MrNudie, would take the time to watch. It is obvious that you didn't take the time to view either of these in the same way that you didn't read or respond to any of the supporting arguments from my earlier posts. I'll make it real easy for you MrNudie...Scroll the second video to the 21:20 mark of the video and start counting. Wait. Counting might be too difficult for you and take too much time. So, just watch the video from the 21:20 mark. You will hear the two guys tell you how many bullets they shot. If their count is wrong, I believe we can at least agree that more than two shots were fired, right? Can we agree that more than ten shots were fired? How about more than ten? Can we agree on more than ten? This with a plastic, 3D weapon.

My point here is NOT that these guys made a 3D AR-15 weapon out of plastic. It isn't that they fired more than 10 rounds. that is obvious. The video doesn't lie.

My point is MrNudie, you don't watch or read anybody's posts of supporting evidence which means your are NOT debating. You are bullying. My evidence supporting this statement? Easy. If you had you watched the video you would argue the facts. You didn't argue facts, MrNudie. You sat in your cloud, your God-like realm, and shot down my statement when, in fact, there is a video that clearly shows what I stated...two guys who made a weapon out of plastic and shot numerous rounds out of the weapon. God, how simple can a position be?

Bullying is not a debate. It is condescending. It is belittling. Bullying makes a debate frustrating and boring. But I have faith in you MrNudie. While you exhibit poor debating skills you do show an intelligence capable of debating FACTS. Now, I'm sure you will, true to form, shoot down this attempt to get you to engage in legitimate debate based on facts and backed up with facts. In this case there is the video...for your eyes and mine to see and you said (read your quote provided above) it can't be done.

Please MrNudie debate the FACTS or, respectfully, stfu. People here want a debate on the facts. We don't want a debate based on your bullying...better than thou opinion. Give us backed up facts and debate our facts or don't debate at all.

But, as the PM's have been telling me, thats just how you roll. It is beyond me why that is tolerated here on Lush since Bullying is as bad, in my opinion worse, than using a common expletive to emphasize ones point.

What's scary is that there are people who are convinced the same as you are, and those people write our laws (and vote on them). Backatcha Bloviator! For those who don't know...bloviator is NOT an expletive.



ByronLord
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:49:02 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/14/2010
Posts: 754
Location: Massachusetts, United States
BablingBrooke wrote:


No, whats scary is the thought that a gun made up almost entirely out of plastic can fire off even one shot. As @Buz and I have said that could very quickly wreak havoc. The other scary part of all of this is that 3d printers are becoming cheaper and the plastic is becoming more and more durable.

As angry as you are about "Obama coming to take your guns" you have to understand that not everyone who makes laws is an idiot. Can you really sit behind your keyboard and tell me that there should not be laws in place governing the PRINTING of a firearm? dontknow


Oh let as many gun nuts go try that as possible. Thin the herd.

Yes, you can make a gun out of plastic. But that does not mean you can make a safe gun out of plastic. You can make a gun out of junk parts that is likely to be rather safer and more robust. Basically the guy used a $8000 printer to make a zip gun.

In my basement I have a full CNC mill and lathe. I can make pretty much any part I want from scratch using more or less the same equipment that a gunsmith would use. The result is rather more robust than the typical mass produced AK47. That equipment only cost me around $4000 on EBay.

If you make a gun by any means without a license then you are breaking the law. I suspect that we will see a clamp down on 80% lower receivers in the near future.

Mazza
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:59:56 AM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,048
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
This all puts me in mind of the flesh and bone gun in the Cronenberg movie, Existenz...

I always wondered why no one had come up with an actual idea like that before, but I guess this is close enough...


ByronLord
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:53:56 PM

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Joined: 11/14/2010
Posts: 754
Location: Massachusetts, United States
Buz wrote:
Right now guns made from those 3D printers can only be shot a few times before they break down. No doubt though, technology will soon rectify that. But even the capability to fire just a few shots is all some terrorist or total nut case needs to wreak havoc on an airliner, bus, transit train or group of people.



Before they explode horribly with a high chance of maiming the person using it...

3D printing is just a very expensive way to make zip gun. There is no 3D printing technology that makes parts that are robust enough for reliable use in a firearm. Consider the fact that high quality gun parts are made from forged rather than cast aluminum.

But 3D Printing is not the only tech on offer. 3D CAM like my mill can make gun parts that are identical to the manufactured parts because they are made the same way. Only difference between my mill and the type a gunsmith might use is how long it takes to make a part and the size of part I can make. My equipment won't let me make motor engines for cars (but can do model planes).

Ruthie
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:15:18 PM

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elitfromnorth wrote:
If I'm not mistaken I read somewhere that by making it available for people outside the US he broke some kind of arms trade act thingamagjing, so basically they took down a site that broke the law. If you ship out a weapon in pieces to one guy, you're still shipping out a weapon since he already have all the parts. Shame they were too late to stop him.


Yes. The government took it down under the laws to prohibit exporting weapons by unlicensed dealers. It was like shipping a kit.
Shylass
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:38:14 PM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,596
Location: Trumpton, United Kingdom
Well, I'm annoyed. I thought that clicking on this thread would show me some information on where to get some arms to cuddle me, and maybe some fingers to save me fingering myself. And all I find is more gun thingies. angry7

Next thing will be people doing this 3D printing of their willies. Now that would be interesting. I might get me one of them there 3D printers after all... book


Ut incepit fidelis, sic permanet.

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Guest
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:45:49 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818
Shylass wrote:
Well, I'm annoyed. I thought that clicking on this thread would show me some information on where to get some arms to cuddle me, and maybe some fingers to save me fingering myself. And all I find is more gun thingies. angry7

Next thing will be people doing this 3D printing of their willies. Now that would be interesting. I might get me one of them there 3D printers after all... book


Well if this is what a willie is in your mind look no further: http://makerlove.com/Free-3D-Sex-Toys/3-Dildo/index.html
Shylass
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:53:04 PM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,596
Location: Trumpton, United Kingdom
BablingBrooke wrote:


Well if this is what a willie is in your mind look no further: http://makerlove.com/Free-3D-Sex-Toys/3-Dildo/index.html


I'm too scared to click on the link. laughing9 Lush links usually make me gasp, blush or start my eyes watering. I'll hold out for the cuddling arms, thanks. sunny

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Guest
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 5:14:53 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 537,818


Basically once you remove all the stuff that is perpendicular to the tip, you have just printed your own dildo!
Buz
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 5:39:29 PM

Rank: The Linebacker

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,834
Location: Atlanta, United States
ByronLord wrote:
But 3D Printing is not the only tech on offer. 3D CAM like my mill can make gun parts that are identical to the manufactured parts because they are made the same way. Only difference between my mill and the type a gunsmith might use is how long it takes to make a part and the size of part I can make. My equipment won't let me make motor engines for cars (but can do model planes).


I'd love to know more about the model planes. That sounds fun!

Shylass
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:01:07 AM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,596
Location: Trumpton, United Kingdom
BablingBrooke wrote:


Basically once you remove all the stuff that is perpendicular to the tip, you have just printed your own dildo!


OMG. Embarassed If they hollow out the barrel, they could use THAT as the gun. I once heard spunk can shoot out at a lot of miles an hour, so maybe that's why sometimes lads call their willy a weapon?

"I'd not worry, officer, that's just my sex toy. Trust me, you'll not want to see that go off..." I guess you just can't beat a good ol' porridge gun. confused5


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