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inthemix
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 3:54:46 PM

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Is it dead? or does it still exist? Does it mater or not? For myself I tend to be chivalrous when needed. Just how I roll.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:29:52 PM

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I don't think chivalry is dead per say but it is quickly going extinct. Respect and common decencies are not taught anymore, men and women can being equally appalling. Whether or not it matters depends on the person I guess, to me YES. Something as easy as asking how a persons' day was or a compliment can go a long way especially when it comes to first impressions.
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ramrod32784
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 10:05:12 PM

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I was brought up to be a gentleman I hold doors help with jackets ,pay for dates all that good stuff.But women have to take some responsibilities if I should hold a door many times I get a wise comment and dirty look.Men no longer know how to treat a woman for all the rules we were taught are now considered out of date.Women have taken into their personalities of men while losing many qualities of the women behind
Musigal
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 2:09:23 AM

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I agree with the first commenter. I don't feel it's necessarily needed, but it does make you feel special. But within saying that, I don't go out expecting for dinners to be paid for or doors to be opened.
Marcie4you
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:03:25 AM

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When a guy is, he gets "extra points".....:)
Jack_42
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:05:12 AM

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I absolutely adore women but feel that treating them like fragile creatures who can't open doors or move chairs is a form of a patronising insult. However politeness and consideration should be genderless and applied to all - I've held many a door open for a guy/girl walking close behind me. It's sort of embarrassing to write this as it all seems a bit obvious and even as I write I feel as if I'm being a bit twee and stating the obvious. (Philip Sidney the perfect Renaissance man during his famous bit of chivalry told them to give the water to a man after all even then).
JohnC
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 5:16:58 AM

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The reason a man opens a door for a woman, or pulls her chair out for her, has nothing to do with her not having the ability to do it herself. It has to do with the man WANTING to SERVE the woman, and to do something for her; making her the focus, the most important thing at that moment. The same as if you are up getting a drink or refill on your coffee, you ask if the other would like something. Of course they can get it themselves, but you WANT to do something for them. You are putting them first and showing your devotion to them. But it also applies to women OTHER than you partner. Like if you see a woman changing a tire. Of course she can do it herself, it isn't that hard or rocket science. But if you have the time (as in you are not already rushing for something) you help her change it, or change it for her. And there are countless other examples; none of which mean the woman CAN'T do the act/action herself. Like when you see an older person reaching for something on a high shelf at the store, they may be able to get it themselves, but OFFER to get it for them because you may be able to get it better/easier or you simply want to assist/serve them in a sign of respect. It is not belittling at all. It all depends on your REASON for doing things. And chivalry is about caring and serving, out of respect and love, not because you are belittling or patronizing the other party in any way.

Chivalry is not dead, but like some have stated, it is becoming more and more rare (OR it is seen in the beginning of the relationship, but fast fades away.. unfortunately). I will also point out that chivalry is NOT about being a sniveling hand servant or submissive puppy drooling over the woman and being a wimp.

theallegorist
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 7:22:35 AM

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If a woman is a little bit egotistical or let's just say a hardcore feminist, showing acts of chivalry might mean the other way around. It isn't dead but unfortunately, it isn't common these days as well. Or maybe it still is, we just don't pay much attention to it.

Chivalry is something that women have a right to. But what all women should understand is that chivalry is not meant to fulfill their desires. It's done on behalf of women but it is not done on the request or the demand of the woman.

Chivalry is an expression of a man's judgment and his sense of ethics. It's their duty.
paul_moadib
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 7:25:08 AM

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I think chivalry of the old days was a hollow gesture, designed by men, as a constant reminder to 'the fairer sex' as to who was in charge and that in the absence of anything tangible afforded to women, chivalry allowed men to delude themseleves into thinking women were happy with their lot in life.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 7:51:26 AM

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Quite honestly the constructs around 'chivalry' can be easily pared down to the basics - respect and thoughtfulness. I think we can all achieve these things - like those listed in JohnC's examples - helping others when we can, doing nice things for people, offering assistance, keeping your partner's needs in mind. In a good relationship both men and women should be doing these things for each other. And in a public sense - kind courtesies go a long way. To me, it's just kindness. If I'm helping an elder person lift heavy bags into their car or giving up my seat to a pregnant woman on the subway, I don't consider myself being 'chivalrous' - just kind. Your desire to do these things should stem from human empathy not 'courtly ideals' or social expectations plucked from bygone eras.

Outside of that - I, personally, could not handle a relationship that's wrapped up in overthinking roles. I don't want to think about what would a 'gentleman' do or what's expected of a 'lady' or this person is the dominant one so it means 'this' or a submissive can't do 'that' or your job is to do XYZ in keeping with some lofty overcooked notion of 'chivalry'. The more you get attached to a defined role or contrived rituals, the more fake it starts to feel. The real you gets buried in the role you've committed yourself to play. Be kind. Be respectful. Don't overdo it. The rest should come naturally.


VanGogh
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:19:41 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:
I don't want to think about what would a 'gentleman' do or what's expected of a 'lady' or this person is the dominant one so it means 'this' or a submissive can't do 'that' or your job is to do XYZ in keeping with some lofty overcooked notion of 'chivalry'. The more you get attached to a defined role or contrived rituals, the more fake it starts to feel. The real you gets buried in the role you've committed yourself to play. Be kind. Be respectful. Don't overdo it. The rest should come naturally.


DD has my opinion well expressed (as have others).

I saw once (on here) ... "It begins with respect [a relationship]" ... ALL relationships should begin with respect, otherwise, it's not really a giving relationship that may withstand the test of time (btw - giving means giving and receiving for BOTH parties).

Perhaps though, one must look at the definition of chivalry:

Quote:
1. the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.
2. the rules and customs of medieval knighthood.
3. the medieval system or institution of knighthood.
4. a group of knights.
5. gallant warriors or gentlemen: fair ladies and noble chivalry.

[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chivalry]


As I was once told by a "gentleman" here that some words are old-fashioned, and perhaps this is one of them .... I know not ONE Knight, personally .... though understanding that the Queen has knighted a few men .... a many of them are musicians ... go figure!




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Jack_42
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 5:08:41 PM

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We seem to be saying that chivalry is some sort of act that allows for politeness etc related to the female sex. Surely if you are going to behave in a special way for someone you care for then that must cut both ways. If it only applies to behaviour regarding males behaviour to females then some sort of distinction is being made and that is where it becomes a sexist gesture in my opinion. My current partner is taller than me so she can reach for the higher article easier than I can. It would be over the top if I fetched a step ladder when she could just reach up and get it. I'm not saying have no consideration but the gender issue should be irrelevant. If we are saying that people are ruder generally speaking OK I would maybe agree with that with reservation as I find in many ways the current time makes a lot of allowances that previous times were intolerant and prejudicial about.
Lustyrose4u
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 6:25:44 PM

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Fortunately, chivalry does still exist, at least in NY. A man that shows me that he is thoughtful and courteous gets extra points, every time. I personally find it very sexy when a man goes out of his way to see to it that I am first in his mind. of course i can open doors, etc. But the thought process that goes behind his actions makes it all so special.

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kylie_kained
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 6:38:09 PM

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Chivalry does exist but not to it's full extent anymore, a guy may well hold a door open for you but I doubt anyone will find a guy to lay down his coat in a puddle for you.
















Jack_42
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:01:45 AM

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kylie_kained wrote:
Chivalry does exist but not to it's full extent anymore, a guy may well hold a door open for you but I doubt anyone will find a guy to lay down his coat in a puddle for you.


I would if it was Elizabeth II and the puddle covered a huge 4 foot deep hole. No doubt I would suffer the same fate as my predecessor with Elizabeth I.
Dani
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:09:57 AM

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Chivalry dies if you let it. If you present yourself as the kind of woman who deserves/welcomes chivalry, you'll get it. If you're the kind of guy that offers such chivalry, you'll find a woman worthy of it. Or at least you should.



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inthemix
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2013 1:27:59 PM

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Joined: 1/7/2013
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slipperywhenwet2012 wrote:
Chivalry dies if you let it. If you present yourself as the kind of woman who deserves/welcomes chivalry, you'll get it. If you're the kind of guy that offers such chivalry, you'll find a woman worthy of it. Or at least you should.


I have to agree. I have 3 son's and I see them acting with Chivalry when in situations. So I guess they get it. Not that it is the end of the world if not done, Just seem like a good thing to do.....
buttercup2u
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 11:50:09 AM

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I love when a man opens a door for me or offers me a seat on the bus or pulls out my chair for me at a restaurant. It tells me that he sees me as person, as well as giving me an idea about how his father treated his mother. All too often these days, women are treated as property to be used, instead of a person to be respected and loved and cherished. Of the flip side of that coin a woman's respect for the other person. Her reaction tells me about how her mother treated her father. Does she smile and say thank you, or does she just walk through the door?
I think that any woman who is offended by the show of respect by a man opening a door or pulling out a chair should perhaps ask herself what kind of values would she like society to have, one where it is every man (or woman) for himself, or one where people respect and care for eachother. We as adults, often don't realize how much we have learned from our parents, and in turn how much our children learn from us. It is something that we should be more aware of, I believe.
MadMartigan
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 2:31:19 PM

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buttercup2u wrote:
I love when a man opens a door for me or offers me a seat on the bus or pulls out my chair for me at a restaurant. It tells me that he sees me as person, as well as giving me an idea about how his father treated his mother. All too often these days, women are treated as property to be used, instead of a person to be respected and loved and cherished. Of the flip side of that coin a woman's respect for the other person. Her reaction tells me about how her mother treated her father. Does she smile and say thank you, or does she just walk through the door?
I think that any woman who is offended by the show of respect by a man opening a door or pulling out a chair should perhaps ask herself what kind of values would she like society to have, one where it is every man (or woman) for himself, or one where people respect and care for eachother. We as adults, often don't realize how much we have learned from our parents, and in turn how much our children learn from us. It is something that we should be more aware of, I believe.


This always annoys me. In my not so far off college days, I'd hold the doors open for anyone if they were within 5-10 feet or are carrying something large.

Now, while many females do say thank you or at least smile, many don't even acknowledge you. Strangely enough, it has been my fellow bro who tends to say thank you the most. dontknow
Metilda
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 3:10:56 PM

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Well - for those who think it's dead: I think the evidence shows in what people think is being chivalrous. It went from being a Medieval practice of contained and controlled affection and mannerism to being just 'nice' to someone.

Chivalry has been dead seeing as how we don't practice it and haven't in hundreds of years - and when it was practiced it was only to a relatively small populous.

Being polite, though - or having good manners / proper etiquette for the occasion - this is not dead. Not where I live, anyway. I haven't gone to an event in countless years where my chair needed to be pulled out - but last I was at a ball, my date did exactly that.

As with the doors - in the south it's just a common polite measure extended to all ages. Usually men toward women. However - kids at school open doors for others, women open doors for others coming and going out of a building.

Paying for dates? This is part of dating etiquette that stems more from customs of bride-prices and the like. What remains of this is sometimes found in dating (for some) and wedding formalities (bride's family pays for the costs) . . . When this was for a wedding (as in a dowry of sorts) it was to compensate for the loss of her 'use' as an active member of the family who had assigned chores to do, etc.

Many things have just changed over time - but general politeness toward others has not ended. Now *what* is considered polite might have changed generation to generation.

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Milly
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 4:55:11 PM

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inthemix wrote:
Is it dead? or does it still exist? Does it mater or not? For myself I tend to be chivalrous when needed. Just how I roll.


Chivalry doesn't exist - it's out of date by the odd century.

I think people mix up chivalry with common courtesy which, in my opinion, is dying out these days.
There just seems to be a general lack of manners sometimes which makes my blood boil.

It's lovely when a man opens a door for you, or helps you carry all the heavy shopping home etc. but I behave in just the same way.

As to the supposedly "chivalrous" act of paying for a meal, while I very much appreciate the sentiment, I pay my own way.
Plus it makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.


BelleduJour
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 7:44:40 PM

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JohnC wrote:
The reason a man opens a door for a woman, or pulls her chair out for her, has nothing to do with her not having the ability to do it herself. It has to do with the man WANTING to SERVE the woman, and to do something for her; making her the focus, the most important thing at that moment. The same as if you are up getting a drink or refill on your coffee, you ask if the other would like something. Of course they can get it themselves, but you WANT to do something for them. You are putting them first and showing your devotion to them. But it also applies to women OTHER than you partner. Like if you see a woman changing a tire. Of course she can do it herself, it isn't that hard or rocket science. But if you have the time (as in you are not already rushing for something) you help her change it, or change it for her. And there are countless other examples; none of which mean the woman CAN'T do the act/action herself. Like when you see an older person reaching for something on a high shelf at the store, they may be able to get it themselves, but OFFER to get it for them because you may be able to get it better/easier or you simply want to assist/serve them in a sign of respect. It is not belittling at all. It all depends on your REASON for doing things. And chivalry is about caring and serving, out of respect and love, not because you are belittling or patronizing the other party in any way.

Chivalry is not dead, but like some have stated, it is becoming more and more rare (OR it is seen in the beginning of the relationship, but fast fades away.. unfortunately). I will also point out that chivalry is NOT about being a sniveling hand servant or submissive puppy drooling over the woman and being a wimp.


Couldn't agree more! This is when I realize just how old I really am *sigh* I was raised in a time when boys were raised to treat girls/women with dignity and respect and taught to have manners that is all but lost on so many men today but especially the younger ones. These values were not things reserved just for the object of his affections but included his mother, his sister, and the old lady in the grocery store. Any acts of chilvalry no matter how small or large, were never about dominating women but rather holding women in high regard.

I also believe that chivalry begins at home where it's taught directly or indirectly by the parents. Lazy parenting seems to be an epidemic these days and you can see it in the way younger generations treat each other with such little respect and that's including themselves. Personally, I find it very disheartening to see those old fashioned values get forgotten. If there ever was a time to reinstate them, I think it would be now. Having said that, I'm still a hopeless romantic at my core which means I always live with notion that there is hope and therefore still believe that chivalry isn't entirely dead - harder to find perhaps but not dead and thank goodness for that.

Buz
Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 7:58:32 PM

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I am not sure what all modern chivalry entails. Growing up my mom spent a lot of time teaching me mannerable gentlemanly behavior. I had to practice too, pulling the chair out, holding doors, walking on the outside, offering to take her coat or wrap, etc. But she told me never to be so presumptuous as to order for a lady when in a restaurant. I am sure chivalry should not include smothering a woman with control and such. Anyone trying to control another person is a big turn off to me.

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Metilda
Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 2:52:02 AM

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Hmm - I feel like I tolerate a lot of mannerisms in this regard - I don't feel flattered or pleased just because I'm not roadside or didn't pump my fuel.

Actions toward another that are defined by social customs aren't what would make me feel 'good' about myself - etc . . . it just makes me feel like we're all playing a role and nothing more.

You know - "thank you for walking on the outside - but I know we'd both get wet - however, since it's important to you and society dictates it be done, I appreciate you caring about what society think' . . . that's really how I feel about it. That's his role.

My role is to 'be polite and appreciative when he does so - even when I could care less that he's done so - because that's what society expects from me'

As a result: all the 'gentlemen behaviors' that my husband sticks to - I'm careful not to negate them in front of him . . . I save that for online forums. LOL

I think my lack of appreciation - concern, rather - is because it wasn't ingrained in me. I was raised with 2 sisters - not brothers. My parents never had to reiterate anything other than 'we're the minister's family - be courteous and polite at all times'

As a result: I applied my own meanings to things. I never considered my Dad driving to be a sign of anything. My Mom always said she had a bad back - so my Dad drove by default. Thus - my Dad pumped fuel at the gas station.

I grew up thinking that he did that only for HER - and that, in general, the driver just pumped fuel (aka: the driver was often male - males pumped fuel - but I never considered it that way). It caused a lot of problems in my marriage early on when my husband would do all those same things and I would say 'I'm perfectly capable of doing it for myself' - because I was not suffering from a bad back, as my Mom always stated.

One very negative thing that came with just going along with it all - I suddenly found myself without a husband to do all sorts of things for me, he was deployed, and I had to sort it out for myself OR take help from teh rednecks down the street.

Yeah I don't think so - I sorted it all out by myself. I eventually learned how to do anything and everything he did.

When he fell ill - with bouts of dizziness - and wasn't able to drive anymore I had a hard time driving him around without being rattled with nerves. After 8 years of marriage actually driving him felt like driving my Dad around when he was teaching me - I was sick to my stomach. LOL . .. but I got over that, too.

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MasterJonathan
Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:39:52 AM

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Chivalry isn't dead but it has been sorely wounded! Respect, manners and gentlemanly behavior is practically a lost art anymore, unfortunately.

Those who know Me know that I try very hard to maintain a gentlemanly position and that respect and honor is very important to Me.

I wish more felt the same way.

CirceWand
Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:44:05 AM

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Has maybe changed a bit? I wouldn't be interested in a man who didn't treat me like I'm special - and isn't that what chivalry is? But in return, he gets lots of it back. So maybe chivalry is actually a mutual thing?
BelleduJour
Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:49:34 AM

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MasterJonathan wrote:
Chivalry isn't dead but it has been sorely wounded! Respect, manners and gentlemanly behavior is practically a lost art anymore, unfortunately.

Those who know Me know that I try very hard to maintain a gentlemanly position and that respect and honor is very important to Me.

I wish more felt the same way.


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MadMartigan
Posted: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 7:36:58 AM

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MasterJonathan wrote:
Chivalry isn't dead but it has been sorely wounded! Respect, manners and gentlemanly behavior is practically a lost art anymore, unfortunately.

Those who know Me know that I try very hard to maintain a gentlemanly position and that respect and honor is very important to Me.

I wish more felt the same way.


Too many kids these days are entitled assholes. It's dying. At least, that's what I learned in a college dining hall.d'oh!
Boobacca
Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:09:04 PM

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I don't think it's dead, but it can be hard to find. I like a gentleman. I want to be treated as his lady in public and his woman in private.
Frank
Posted: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:10:36 AM

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Chivalry is not dead.
My lady always cums before me! L35

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