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Time to Ban and Burn confederate flags Options · View
adagio_sabadicus
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:46:30 AM

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Posts: 1,246
I am from the 'Deep South'. You can ban a fried chicken, but the chicken doesn't cluck like a red neck. It's mentality issue, brought on by standing to close to the micro wave and reading comic books.coffee Regaeman Man coffee
HotRodG
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:11:55 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/10/2013
Posts: 809
Location: East Coast , United States
Monocle wrote:


Fine history, but irrelevant to the central role slavery had for the Southern states the American Civil War 84 years later, and to the symbolism of the Confederate battle flag used in that war.


I am going to disagree with the premise that slavery was the central factor for the war. The primary cause of the war was an invasion by Federal forces of states who peaceably seceded.

My intention with everything I have posted was to show the hypocrisy that some exhibit when trying hang all of the sins of slavery on the Southern states.

If we determine that the Confederate flag represents evil, much like the Nazi flag, then we must also say that the American flag is also a representative of evil and must be stricken.
Weavindreams
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:24:01 AM

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Ajax wrote:
That was British North America during that time period. What started as indentured servitude, became slavery because it was more ebeneficial for them.

Post 1776 the North started abolishing slavery right?


But NOT the slave TRADE! Virginia wanted to do that and Massachusetts threatened to pull out of the original confederation of states in the rebellion! Which was fought in part because England wanted to abolish BOTH!

As to "causes" of the war, there was one, the same one behind ALL wars...MONEY! The taxes weren't the same then as now. The feds could only collect tariffs. There were taxes on agricultural EXPORTS (the North had little the South a LOT) and tariffs on imported manufactured goods (the South imported a LOT, the North EXPORTED a LOT).

Due to the politely worded request of a lady, I have changed my sig.

Monocle
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:39:01 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
HotRodG wrote:

I am going to disagree with the premise that slavery was the central factor for the war. The primary cause of the war was an invasion by Federal forces of states who peaceably seceded.

You are in the decided minority of historical scholars.

Quote:
My intention with everything I have posted was to show the hypocrisy that some exhibit when trying hang all of the sins of slavery on the Southern states.

None of that "some" were making that argument here.

Quote:
If we determine that the Confederate flag represents evil, much like the Nazi flag, then we must also say that the American flag is also a representative of evil and must be stricken.

Hyperbole. If we determine the former, that does not automatically also determine the latter. You'd have to make an independent case, and you'd have a much harder time. The US flag represents quite a lot of things _including_ good and bad history.
Weavindreams
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 11:01:02 AM

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Location: On the bluffs above the Mississippi River., United
Monocle wrote:

Hyperbole. If we determine the former, that does not automatically also determine the latter. You'd have to make an independent case, and you'd have a much harder time. The US flag represents quite a lot of things _including_ good and bad history.


History is written by? THE VICTORS. BOTH of the flags mentioned represent a lot of good and bad ask the Native Americans.

Due to the politely worded request of a lady, I have changed my sig.

Ajax
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2013 1:40:57 PM

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Location: Banging more than my head , United States
HotRodG wrote:


I am going to disagree with the premise that slavery was the central factor for the war. The primary cause of the war was an invasion by Federal forces of states who peaceably seceded.

My intention with everything I have posted was to show the hypocrisy that some exhibit when trying hang all of the sins of slavery on the Southern states.

If we determine that the Confederate flag represents evil, much like the Nazi flag, then we must also say that the American flag is also a representative of evil and must be stricken.
Not only that. You can hang racial segregation and the KKK on southern states as well. From 1800 onward, Slavery was a strong Southern cause right? Factor in Segregation and the KKk post civil war.. Now which side was the more racist ?
Weavindreams
Posted: Thursday, December 26, 2013 6:09:18 AM

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Ajax wrote:
Not only that. You can hang racial segregation and the KKK on southern states as well. From 1800 onward, Slavery was a strong Southern cause right? Factor in Segregation and the KKk post civil war.. Now which side was the more racist ?



Methinks you should reread the so called "Emancipation Proclamation" which only "freed" those slaves still held in parts of the South NOT under the control of Union forces at that time, NOR in the border states! The KKK? That was a reaction TOO the harsh "reconstruction" policies foisted off ON the Southern states by Stanton AFTER Lincoln died.

Further, in the 1870's Apache braves captured by the US army were? SOLD AS SLAVES BY said army.

Due to the politely worded request of a lady, I have changed my sig.

sprite
Posted: Friday, December 27, 2013 5:57:01 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

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Posts: 13,555
Location: My Tower, United States
just a thought. how many arguing for pro-flag have ever had racism or bigotry directed specifically at them? how many know, first hand, what it feels like, to be discriminated or stereotyped or worse because of your color, etc? like i said, just a thought. as i've said, it's not just a flag - it's a symbol of something for more potent.
asleep
Posted: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:55:45 PM

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sprite wrote:
just a thought. how many arguing for pro-flag have ever had racism or bigotry directed specifically at them? how many know, first hand, what it feels like, to be discriminated or stereotyped or worse because of your color, etc? like i said, just a thought. as i've said, it's not just a flag - it's a symbol of something for more potent.



laughing3 WHAT SHE SAID!!

Rick...an old guy born and raised in NC, but I still can understand what Sprite is saying. Folks...THIS gal THINKS well before she speaks.!!

http://www.lushstories.com/stories/love-stories/exit-33-trust.aspx

TxPrincess
Posted: Friday, December 27, 2013 11:07:02 PM

Rank: The Resident Princess

Joined: 10/6/2012
Posts: 282
Location: The Best Part, United States
sprite wrote:
just a thought. how many arguing for pro-flag have ever had racism or bigotry directed specifically at them? how many know, first hand, what it feels like, to be discriminated or stereotyped or worse because of your color, etc? like i said, just a thought. as i've said, it's not just a flag - it's a symbol of something for more potent.


I have....I am a white girl that moves to a small town in high school and gets lost in said small town and is told by a guy that I had just met that day....I was on the wrong side of the tracks and needed to leave immediately before something bad happens....I was truly appalled that such a thing still existed....really this is only 60 miles outside of the 4th largest city in the nation, and I am told there are places that are not safe because I am white. (in 1992)

I also went to a High school before we moved in one of the Largest School Districts in Texas and was told many of times I can't do things because of my being white and even though I was a minority society dictates that being "White" is not the minority and I could not apply for certain scholarships, be on certain teams, and programs. It really didn't seem fair that the white people only made up 20% of the entire population of the school. (1989-91)

I understand that this flag may have bad references to many and other countries don't understand anything other than its meaning than the Civil War, but to the South it really doesn't have anything to do with racism any longer. It is just a flag that we identify with, everyone with there own person reasons....I have mine, but don't care to share unless someone ask as I was trying to stay on topic with facts.


TxPrincess
Posted: Friday, December 27, 2013 11:07:54 PM

Rank: The Resident Princess

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asleep wrote:



laughing3 WHAT SHE SAID!!

Rick...an old guy born and raised in NC, but I still can understand what Sprite is saying. Folks...THIS gal THINKS well before she speaks.!!


yes she does

sprite
Posted: Saturday, December 28, 2013 5:51:24 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 13,555
Location: My Tower, United States
TxPrincess wrote:


I have....I am a white girl that moves to a small town in high school and gets lost in said small town and is told by a guy that I had just met that day....I was on the wrong side of the tracks and needed to leave immediately before something bad happens....I was truly appalled that such a thing still existed....really this is only 60 miles outside of the 4th largest city in the nation, and I am told there are places that are not safe because I am white. (in 1992)

I also went to a High school before we moved in one of the Largest School Districts in Texas and was told many of times I can't do things because of my being white and even though I was a minority society dictates that being "White" is not the minority and I could not apply for certain scholarships, be on certain teams, and programs. It really didn't seem fair that the white people only made up 20% of the entire population of the school. (1989-91)

I understand that this flag may have bad references to many and other countries don't understand anything other than its meaning than the Civil War, but to the South it really doesn't have anything to do with racism any longer. It is just a flag that we identify with, everyone with there own person reasons....I have mine, but don't care to share unless someone ask as I was trying to stay on topic with facts.


discrimination based on your color is wrong and yes, it goes both ways. i'm sorry you've had to experience this. that said, yes, perhaps in to the South it IS just a flag, but it's not JUST a flag to many others. perhaps they should get over that, but then, that's like telling the jews they should get over Auschwitz when they see a nazi flag. as i said, the symbol is potent to some. slavery was, if you can believe this, far more horrific then many of us realize. it was brutal and dehumanizing and resulted in millions of deaths, rapes, torture, and it was legal. people were whipped or worse at the whim of their owners. they weren't human, they were simply property and treated worse than animals. it's been 150 years, yes, but that kind of thing tends to stick, especially when, in the after math, it took so long to gain rights - really, black american rights is rather new to american history. it wasn't until the 60s when things started really turning around.
Monocle
Posted: Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:22:32 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 286
It's "just a flag" in the south? I don't think so. But I think that does expose the fundamental white normative assumptions of the South, and still too much of the rest of the US.
Georgia is over 30% Black or African American. Alabama 26%, VA almost 20% NC, 22%, SC 28%. Mississippi 37%. I sincerely doubt that proportion of the population feels it's 'just a flag'.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, December 28, 2013 8:04:37 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 470,082
It's important that we never forget our history lest we be doomed to repeat it. With that being said, the confederate flag should only be used as a reminder of the tragedy that was the Civil War, but unfortunately the battle flag has become a symbol of hate and discrimination both of which are a disgrace. It is important though that we remember the mistakes of our ancestors and learn from them, they should not be forgotten.
Yuzar
Posted: Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:44:27 PM

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It honestly doesn't matter how people feel about it or don't feel about it; prohibiting it goes against the first amendment. I'm sorry if it offends you(not really).

Assholes are entitled to be assholes
Bigots can be bigots
Racists will be racist

Even if the flag were banned the aforementioned people would still exist, only those oppressors would cry out oppression.

Black & White I : My First Story
Domina I : Domina I
oldvietnamvet47
Posted: Monday, January 13, 2014 9:19:48 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 11/20/2013
Posts: 66
Location: United States
I dont know why black folks think it is their right to try to change history,remove Confederate flags and statues of famous Southern Generals and statesmen. I dont care if they have a monument dedicated to black leaders. Famous Americans need to be recognized and History cannot be hidden,or changed. I do NOT agree with a Confederate Flag flying over a courthouse or public buildings. But over Confederate cemetaries or in a park with Confederate statues,no problem. Dont like it,go to Africa,Egypt,China,anywhere. Dont want GOD on our money or in our History,go to a nation where Islam or Budism or Hinduism is the culture.
ByronLord
Posted: Monday, January 13, 2014 10:30:53 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/14/2010
Posts: 716
Location: Massachusetts, United States
sprite wrote:
just a thought. how many arguing for pro-flag have ever had racism or bigotry directed specifically at them? how many know, first hand, what it feels like, to be discriminated or stereotyped or worse because of your color, etc? like i said, just a thought. as i've said, it's not just a flag - it's a symbol of something for more potent.


Lots of bigots are victims of bigotry. The situation in South Africa got that way because the Boers felt they were being put down by the British. So when they got the chance they lorded it over the Blacks. Israel is currently run by a gang of vicious bigoted bullies whose world view is a reaction to anti-semitism in their youth.

Southern racism and the segregation thing is not just a continuation of slavery. One of the reasons so many Southerners are still bought into it is that they feel the South lost its pride in the civil war and was subjugated to the North. Lording it over and harassing black people is how that type of person copes with their feelings of inferiority.

Now that the flag is unacceptable the racists have taken to waving guns in people's faces. That is what the open carry laws are all about. Unless you are military or police there is no reason to go to the grocery store carrying an automatic rifle. The reason people do that sort of thing is because they want to show folk that they have the power.

The racists aren't the only people who do that of course but that is the new confederate flag as far as the racist types are kkkoncerned. Wait till they start putting an AK47 on their state flags.

Monocle
Posted: Monday, January 13, 2014 10:40:27 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

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Posts: 286
oldvietnamvet47 wrote:
I dont know why black folks think it is their right to try to change history


They don't. Whether or not you realize it, that's a bigot's fear and accusation.

Dani
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 10:16:34 AM

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Joined: 12/25/2010
Posts: 3,990
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oldvietnamvet47 wrote:
I dont know why black folks think it is their right to try to change history,remove Confederate flags and statues of famous Southern Generals and statesmen.


Umm...it's not just 'black folks'. If it weren't for more than a few white advocates, I'm sure things like slavery or at the very least Jim Crow would still be in place. Pick up a book...or two. Hell...a black person didn't even start this thread.

It's like the go-to solution of a bigot is for everyone that disagrees with the way things are to leave the country. I don't know why bigots think it's ok to make blanket statements such as this and spew their venom and then expect everyone to go along with it. It boggles the mind. But then again, that is the definition of a bigot.

Also, if you've read through or at least skimmed through the entire thread (which I highly doubt, as you don't strike me as the type to do even the most basic research), I think it's been made pretty clear that no one's trumping on anyone's right to be a bigot. In fact, the general consensus thus far is that bigots like you can stay as bigoted as they choose, but not everyone is going to agree with it. So keep your flag, we're not trying to take it from you. We're just making sure that everyone's aware of what it truly represents...the good, the bad, and the ugly. angry7



We're tiny. We're toony. We're all a little looney. And in this cartoony, we're invading your TV.

billybroadband
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 11:37:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 1/29/2013
Posts: 72
Location: lower peninsula, United States
I'm with Sprite on this one. Symbols have a lot of power. I am reminded of how i felt when the neo-nazi movement first came up in Germany and the skinheads proudly broke out nazi flags. How would you have felt if you were Jewish, living in Germany, and seeing this happen...again?

I'd like to buy the world a beer. Step on up.
rjd1956
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 12:48:24 PM

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Anyone that wants to band the confederate flag knows nothing about American history and should do some reading!!! The civil war was not all anout slavery higher taxes and less say in goverment was another asspect but nobody ever wants to admit that there was other things besides slavery. I would say thats why it is being toted out in todays world. Remeber what the south has always said "One day the south will rise again!!"
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 12:50:55 PM

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rjd1956 wrote:
Remeber what the south has always said "One day the south will rise again!!"


What does that mean?
sprite
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:09:29 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 13,555
Location: My Tower, United States
oldvietnamvet47 wrote:
I dont know why black folks think it is their right to try to change history,remove Confederate flags and statues of famous Southern Generals and statesmen. I dont care if they have a monument dedicated to black leaders. Famous Americans need to be recognized and History cannot be hidden,or changed. I do NOT agree with a Confederate Flag flying over a courthouse or public buildings. But over Confederate cemetaries or in a park with Confederate statues,no problem. Dont like it,go to Africa,Egypt,China,anywhere. Dont want GOD on our money or in our History,go to a nation where Islam or Budism or Hinduism is the culture.


i'm not black. having white skin doesn't mean i can't still recognize a bigot when i see one. and no one is trying to change history. we're just verbalizing our distaste of a symbol that, to many of us, is offensive. oh, and for the record? Islam and budism and hinduism ARE part of our culture, as well as a number of other religions. it's called freedom of religion and it's in the US constitution. :)
sprite
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:12:44 PM

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LadyX wrote:


What does that mean?


they've been feeding the south those little blue pills?
sprite
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:14:20 PM

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rjd1956 wrote:
Anyone that wants to band the confederate flag knows nothing about American history and should do some reading!!! The civil war was not all anout slavery higher taxes and less say in goverment was another asspect but nobody ever wants to admit that there was other things besides slavery. I would say thats why it is being toted out in todays world. Remeber what the south has always said "One day the south will rise again!!"


and learn to spell while they're at it!!!
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:42:20 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 470,082
On base I see lots of these flags on bumper stickers and license plates. Most people don't show them out of any kind of hate, it's just a part of their geographic origins/culture/familial identity. I would never display one, but I don't think it's a big deal.
ByronLord
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:59:42 PM

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rjd1956 wrote:
Anyone that wants to band the confederate flag knows nothing about American history and should do some reading!!! The civil war was not all anout slavery higher taxes and less say in goverment was another asspect but nobody ever wants to admit that there was other things besides slavery. I would say thats why it is being toted out in todays world. Remeber what the south has always said "One day the south will rise again!!"


I want to burn all US flags and restore the country to its proper place under the Union Jack and the British Crown.

And your civil war like the revolutionary war was all about slavery. The real reason Boston held the Tea Party was that it was at the center of the slave trade which was threatened by the Mansfield declaration. The civil war was started when a group of slave owners organized the confederacy to protect their property interests.

Of course there have been other pretexts advanced since but slavery was the main reason for both wars and trying to pretend it wasn't there is just trolling.

Monocle
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:40:18 PM

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Joined: 2/19/2007
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ByronLord wrote:

Of course there have been other pretexts advanced since but slavery was the main reason for both wars and trying to pretend it wasn't there is just trolling.


We'll have to disagree about the American Revolution.
Ruthie
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 8:39:54 PM

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Joined: 10/21/2010
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ByronLord wrote:


I want to burn all US flags and restore the country to its proper place under the Union Jack and the British Crown.

And your civil war like the revolutionary war was all about slavery. The real reason Boston held the Tea Party was that it was at the center of the slave trade which was threatened by the Mansfield declaration. The civil war was started when a group of slave owners organized the confederacy to protect their property interests.

Of course there have been other pretexts advanced since but slavery was the main reason for both wars and trying to pretend it wasn't there is just trolling.


I have to disagree about the Boston Tea Party. The people who held the party were concerned about British tea, which was priced lower than the tea that they smuggled in and sold themselves, even including the tax stamps. Legally imported tea, with a proper tax stamp actually cost less than the tea that colonists smuggled in and sold, and the smugglers didn't like the competition. It's always about money. Slavery was about money too. A lot of people would like some form of slavery re-instituted. Consider the fact that the Wisconsin legislature wants the workers of that state to go to a seven day week. The many attempts by conservatives to do away with wage and hour laws, eliminate the minimum wage, put an end to unemployment insurance and food stamps is obviously part of the master plan to return us to feudal conditions. Soon the workers will belong to the factory. We can forget about forty hour weeks, vacations, and living wages. All the gains that labor has made will be gone, and everyone will be at the mercy of the corporations. There might be more jobs though, working in the houses and estates of the wealthy. Maids will probably have to supply their own uniforms, of course. It really won't be that much different than it would have been if we'd all been living under British rule in the nineteenth century. Long work days with barely enough compensation to live on, children working long shifts in dangerous conditions, and hardly any time for oneself. Almost exactly like Britain during the industrial revolution when there was such an enormous gap between the rich and poor, and the poor had no recourse to starvation except to do what they were told and be subservient to their betters.

Oh, and fuck the Queen and her family. Simon Hastings is rightful king of England, Scotland and Ireland, as well as Prince of Wales. When he comes back across the water we'll see the Windsors all hanged.


Buz
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 9:11:11 PM

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Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 5,142
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I disagree with most of Byron your Lordships's side stream view of history. That creek seems to run pretty dry.

Just give the Confederate battle flag a rest and let it die down. Any threats of banning it only make its popularity stronger. Hell, its been gaining popularity in the north for quite awhile. Yes its popular with racists, white supremacists, and nazis (all who are probably one and the same). You can find them anywhere. Damned if Iowa isn't the capital of per capita Klan membership. Eventually these bigoted relics may cease to exist. Hopefully soon. Nothing sounds more awful than a two-faced nasally Bostonian telling a racist joke when they see there are no Black people around. Disgusting as hell. But I do love their expression when this 'slow; drawled out ole southern boy tells them that I don't want to hear their bigoted racist joke.

I think the damn flag needs to be relegated to museums and historical movies. Let culture and popular opinion do that. Given time, it will as long as
pseudo-intellectual reactionaries don't keep its flame burning. Its use as a racist symbol is intolerable. Let it choke to death on its own.

Banning something always has the opposite effect.

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