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Editing Caution

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Advanced Wordsmith
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Just a word for those considering doing editing here.

At the author's request I put several hours into doing a very detailed edit on a story that recently posted (and found almost all of my corrections and suggestions for re-writing/revising/rewording were used). And there wasn't a single word of acknowledgement of my editing at the end of the story. I mean, are people at Lush really that shitty or clueless? How can you ask someone else to put hours of work into your story and not give them a very big and sincere shout-out?

Anyway 'nuf said. Partly venting and partly a heads up to potential editors that you may put hours into someone else's story and not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement.
Devil's Advocate
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I've edited stories for a couple of people here on Lush, with varying degrees of acknowledgement. While the less appreciative of those have sent an eyebrow or two of mine skyward in an okay-then-ahh-fuck-you expression, thanks or a shout-out isn't why I did it.

I think editing someone else's work is a valuable exercise in honing your own writing skills. Granted, it's mostly nuts and bolts grammar and punctuation corrections, at least in my case so far. But that's still important. But looking at a piece with fresh eyes and spotting places where the plot falls down, or the characters need to be developed more, is excellent training for improving your own writing. Every bit helps and all that.

If you look at it in terms of doing something for yourself, then the acknowledgement really doesn't matter.

But having said all that, yes, if someone's kind enough to edit your work, please tear the ass out of the thank you. It really does take hours of their time.
My latest story is a racy little piece about what happens when someone cute from work invites you over to watch Netflix and Chill.
Advanced Wordsmith
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Thanks for the response, Wilful.

You're right that getting some sort of acknowledgement is not a good reason to go to the trouble of editing. This (writing) is one of my (few) areas of expertise. It's a large part of what my college academic background was about, and I've done some college-level teaching in writing (and some other subjects) as an adjunct. So I have a great deal to offer in terms of expertise. The editing on this story was way beyond punctuation and usage (although a lot of that had to be addressed) and into characterizations, a place in the middle of the story where the authors needed to deal with a considerable lag in erotic tension, and an ending which was very abrupt in the original. So I take a look at the story when it publishes and they used almost all of my suggestions for improvements. Then at the end there's no acknowledgement of any kind regarding the editing, but they're sucking each others dicks (imperfect analogy since one of the authors was male and the other female) about what a fabulous story they wrote. The thing even got one of those recommended read doodads (which none of my stories have ever gotten - but I've developed a sneaking suspicion that being a person-of-penis and completely vagina-less is not the way to be at Lush.)

Anyway, I appreciate the support and commiseration.
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by bethalia
The thing even got one of those recommended read doodads (which none of my stories have ever gotten - but I've developed a sneaking suspicion that being a person-of-penis and completely vagina-less is not the way to be at Lush.)


Have you ever offered your services as a story verifier? Don't wait to be asked, volunteer. That said, they may be inclined not to add you after that little outburst.

The system of RRs is imperfect but has improved a lot since it was introduced and has moved on from simply being a form of promotion for mods and their author friends.

There are advantages and disadvantages associated with your sex on this site but in all the time I've been here I've not seen it in the critical appreciation of good stories. There's always been an imbalance amongst verifiers but I think that's more down to men being too busy getting their jollies to do anything useful.

One final point I'd make - how often do you see editors getting a credit in fiction?
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Scarlet Seductress
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Quote by overmykneenow

Have you ever offered your services as a story verifier? Don't wait to be asked, volunteer. That said, they may be inclined not to add you after that little outburst.

The system of RRs is imperfect but has improved a lot since it was introduced and has moved on from simply being a form of promotion for mods and their author friends.

There are advantages and disadvantages associated with your sex on this site but in all the time I've been here I've not seen it in the critical appreciation of good stories. There's always been an imbalance amongst verifiers but I think that's more down to men being too busy getting their jollies to do anything useful.

One final point I'd make - how often do you see editors getting a credit in fiction?


Which it never has been.

I don't know if you were deliberately trying to insult the site and its moderating team, but you've managed it in a single sentence.

It may seem like a throwaway, thoughtless statement, but you imply favouritism and therefore unfairness. That has never been the case.
Clumeleon
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Quote by overmykneenow
Have you ever offered your services as a story verifier? Don't wait to be asked, volunteer.


If you're going to bitch about not being acknowledged for the time and effort you put into helping writers improve their stories, you don't want to be a story verifier.

I remember I was helping a guy edit his stories before he posted them to Lush because, while he told quite a good story, English was a second language to him and there were inevitably quite a few technical issues with his work.

What I got out of that wasn't money or acknowledgement, but the satisfaction in knowing I was helping this writer to improve and seeing the evidence before my eyes. When all the editing was done, it was still his story and I still felt he deserved 100% of the credit for it.

If you are "editing" a story to the point where you feel some sense of ownership of it or that people must know that you had a hand in it, then it's more likely that you (at least partially) rewrote the story rather than edited it.

Quote by overmykneenow
The system of RRs is imperfect but has improved a lot since it was introduced and has moved on from simply being a form of promotion for mods and their author friends.


*rolls eyes*
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by Liz


Which it never has been.

I don't know if you were deliberately trying to insult the site and its moderating team, but you've managed it in a single sentence.

It may seem like a throwaway, thoughtless statement, but you imply favouritism and therefore unfairness. That has never been the case.


The majority of authors for this site interact in only one way: writing stories. They don't come on the forums, they don't chat, they don't network, they just write stories. They don't even comment on other stories. Authors who do take the time to get involved see much better take up on their stories. If you want more comments, add more friends - that's how it works. It also works that if you want your stories to have even more impact, have friends who are more influential. This isn't a problem of Lush, it's just life. If it wasn't the case why bother building networks in the first place?

If there isn't a single grain of truth in it, why take exception? While the system may be fair and just in the way that YOU implement it can you guarantee that has always been the case for everyone else? The statement was neither throwaway nor thoughtless but comes from a LOT of observation.

I find it interesting you chose to decry this and not the OP's allegation of institutional sexism.
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Internet Philosopher
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Quote by bethalia
Thanks for the response, Wilful.

You're right that getting some sort of acknowledgement is not a good reason to go to the trouble of editing. This (writing) is one of my (few) areas of expertise. It's a large part of what my college academic background was about, and I've done some college-level teaching in writing (and some other subjects) as an adjunct. So I have a great deal to offer in terms of expertise. The editing on this story was way beyond punctuation and usage (although a lot of that had to be addressed) and into characterizations, a place in the middle of the story where the authors needed to deal with a considerable lag in erotic tension, and an ending which was very abrupt in the original. So I take a look at the story when it publishes and they used almost all of my suggestions for improvements. Then at the end there's no acknowledgement of any kind regarding the editing, but they're sucking each others dicks (imperfect analogy since one of the authors was male and the other female) about what a fabulous story they wrote. The thing even got one of those recommended read doodads (which none of my stories have ever gotten - but I've developed a sneaking suspicion that being a person-of-penis and completely vagina-less is not the way to be at Lush.)



Anyway, I appreciate the support and commiseration.


I invite you to have a look at my profile page. In five years I've been awarded 8 EP's (three are now part of my ebook and are hidden) and probably as many RR's. I can name Frank Lee, Buz Bono and Jaymal who are equally recognized and we are all men.

If you want to stand out, it takes more than perfect grammar and punctuation, indeed, that isn't even a strength of mine. What it takes is a story that is creatively different and meaningful than what is normally seen. I'm afraid that arguing that having a penis somehow detracts from your ability just doesn't pass the smell test.
Scarlet Seductress
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Quote by overmykneenow


The majority of authors for this site interact in only one way: writing stories. They don't come on the forums, they don't chat, they don't network, they just write stories. They don't even comment on other stories. Authors who do take the time to get involved see much better take up on their stories. If you want more comments, add more friends - that's how it works. It also works that if you want your stories to have even more impact, have friends who are more influential. This isn't a problem of Lush, it's just life. If it wasn't the case why bother building networks in the first place?

If there isn't a single grain of truth in it, why take exception? While the system may be fair and just in the way that YOU implement it can you guarantee that has always been the case for everyone else? The statement was neither throwaway nor thoughtless but comes from a LOT of observation.

I find it interesting you chose to decry this and not the OP's allegation of institutional sexism.


I'm not sure how you equate author popularity to RR awarding. They have nothing to do with each other, as I'm sure you know.

Honestly, I never got to the end of his paragraph. It's just a big block of text and blah blah blah. Yours stood out on the thread to me, hence my reply. As for his sexist insinuation, he is also sadly mistaken. Plenty of the moderators love cock, why would they be unfair to authors with one?
Internet Philosopher
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Quote by overmykneenow




The system of RRs is imperfect but has improved a lot since it was introduced and has moved on from simply being a form of promotion for mods and their author friends.



Without resorting to an angry response, consider what you said earlier about the op volunteering to be a mod. You see, to be a moderator means you have shown through your work the ability to write a memorable story with style as well as technical accuracy. You are also correct in pointing out that editing several stories a day hones ones skill. In erotica, reading that many stories also puts you in greater touch with what works.

So, considering that the moderating core is made up of experienced writers who have further honed their skills and have a great feel for what the site is trying to put forward, does it not make sense that their work reach that goal on a regular basis? There are others who do, of course, but if they show such talent and good judgment when dealing with others, they will soon be approached to be, you guessed it, a moderator.

I didn't volunteer at first. I was asked to join and I almost refused. I'm glad I accepted though. Having the chance to work so closely to other moderators and to read the work of so many members has dramatically improved my writing.

Something to think about when idly throwing out the idea that some kind of favoritism is in play.
Clumeleon
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Quote by Liz
Plenty of the moderators love cock, why would they be unfair to authors with one?


Hear, hear!

*ahem*
Internet Philosopher
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Quote by clum


Hear, hear!

*ahem*


Brown Sugar
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Quote by bethalia
Just a word for those considering doing editing here.

At the author's request I put several hours into doing a very detailed edit on a story that recently posted (and found almost all of my corrections and suggestions for re-writing/revising/rewording were used). And there wasn't a single word of acknowledgement of my editing at the end of the story. I mean, are people at Lush really that shitty or clueless? How can you ask someone else to put hours of work into your story and not give them a very big and sincere shout-out?

Anyway 'nuf said. Partly venting and partly a heads up to potential editors that you may put hours into someone else's story and not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement.


Don,

I want to publicly apologize for not acknowledging your editing efforts on my story. I was wrong, and there is no excuse. Please forgive me. I am sorry. Acknowledgement is now added to the piece. You have been kind enough to offer words of advice and wisdom on my work and I want you to know that I appreciate you and your efforts.


Sincerely,

Tamar

P.S. There are many good people here at Lush. I would hope I'm not considered to be a 'shitty or clueless' one.
Clumeleon
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I love a happy ending.
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by Milik_Redman


Without resorting to an angry response, consider what you said earlier about the op volunteering to be a mod. You see, to be a moderator means you have shown through your work the ability to write a memorable story with style as well as technical accuracy. You are also correct in pointing out that editing several stories a day hones ones skill. In erotica, reading that many stories also puts you in greater touch with what works.

So, considering that the moderating core is made up of experienced writers who have further honed their skills and have a great feel for what the site is trying to put forward, does it not make sense that their work reach that goal on a regular basis? There are others who do, of course, but if they show such talent and good judgment when dealing with others, they will soon be approached to be, you guessed it, a moderator.

I didn't volunteer at first. I was asked to join and I almost refused. I'm glad I accepted though. Having the chance to work so closely to other moderators and to read the work of so many members has dramatically improved my writing.

Something to think about when idly throwing out the idea that some kind of favoritism is in play.


Sorry to have to correct you, but there have been people who were made verifiers without writing a single story. Rare, but it happens.

That said, what you say, I'd imagine is largely true but I'd ask you to consider this: has the increased interest in your stories come about from an improvement in your skills or because you're now an integral part of a strong network of Lush super-users?

Whether favouritism exists or not, it can be hard to stop people forming their opinion that favouritism does exist. I remember a few months ago there was a few days without any RRs being given out. Being a nosey numbers geek I went back through the list and noticed that only two stories been given RR from the most recent 150 or so - both had been written by mods, in fact the only ones written by mods. Actually, one of them was by you! Both of them were fully deserving of the RR but my point is were none of the others? I'll admit I didn't read all the others but it strikes me that even the most casual of observers might have thought something was awry with that particular situation.

Now as i've said the situation has improved, I've noticed more authors I've never heard of getting RRs but I stand by what I said before in saying that the system is imperfect and until we all turn into emotionless robots it probably always will be.
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Brown Sugar
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Quote by bethalia
Thanks for the response, Wilful.

You're right that getting some sort of acknowledgement is not a good reason to go to the trouble of editing. This (writing) is one of my (few) areas of expertise. It's a large part of what my college academic background was about, and I've done some college-level teaching in writing (and some other subjects) as an adjunct. So I have a great deal to offer in terms of expertise. The editing on this story was way beyond punctuation and usage (although a lot of that had to be addressed) and into characterizations, a place in the middle of the story where the authors needed to deal with a considerable lag in erotic tension, and an ending which was very abrupt in the original. So I take a look at the story when it publishes and they used almost all of my suggestions for improvements. Then at the end there's no acknowledgement of any kind regarding the editing, but they're sucking each others dicks (imperfect analogy since one of the authors was male and the other female) about what a fabulous story they wrote. The thing even got one of those recommended read doodads (which none of my stories have ever gotten - but I've developed a sneaking suspicion that being a person-of-penis and completely vagina-less is not the way to be at Lush.)

Anyway, I appreciate the support and commiseration.


Wow... just wow. Really Don?
Internet Philosopher
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Quote by overmykneenow


Sorry to have to correct you, but there have been people who were made verifiers without writing a single story. Rare, but it happens.

It does happen in very rare cases. Most of those I believe are chat or forum moderators. At the moment, I can only think of one long time story verifier who hadn't written before she joined and she happens to have forgotten more about grammar and punctuation than I'll ever know. Those rare cases are discussed in detail before they are accepted and I can assure you, they don't get in unless they have something to offer. Regardless, those are small exceptions and do not invalidate my point because unless they write something and do it well, they are not getting an RR. My poem, Soulmate, has been extremely well regarded but it was published and nor awarded one. Honestly, I thought it deserved it but such is life.

That said, what you say, I'd imagine is largely true but I'd ask you to consider this: has the increased interest in your stories come about from an improvement in your skills or because you're now an integral part of a strong network of Lush super-users?

Interest? Yes. That's undeniable. Part of it is that I learned how to play the game. Another is I simply met more people. However, you cannot compare the difference in my skill. Read my earlier works vs A Slaves Fate or My Last Morning With Melissa. Even Tasting Teresa vs Tasting Teresa Again. My early stuff was good and stories like Kelly's Passion or the first Survivor had complicated plots lines, but the actual writing skill in them simply doesn't compare.

Whether favouritism exists or not, it can be hard to stop people forming their opinion that favouritism does exist. I remember a few months ago there was a few days without any RRs being given out. Being a nosey numbers geek I went back through the list and noticed that only two stories been given RR from the most recent 150 or so - both had been written by mods, in fact the only ones written by mods. Actually, one of them was by you! Both of them were fully deserving of the RR but my point is were none of the others? I'll admit I didn't read all the others but it strikes me that even the most casual of observers might have thought something was awry with that particular situation.

One has to be noticed, and if I hand one out, I'm unlikely to do it if I had to send it back three times or spend an hour correcting it, but I cannot deny how it might appear to those who are not on the other side of the editing screen.

Now as i've said the situation has improved, I've noticed more authors I've never heard of getting RRs but I stand by what I said before in saying that the system is imperfect and until we all turn into emotionless robots it probably always will be.

I respect your position

Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by Liz


I'm not sure how you equate author popularity to RR awarding. They have nothing to do with each other, as I'm sure you know.

Honestly, I never got to the end of his paragraph. It's just a big block of text and blah blah blah. Yours stood out on the thread to me, hence my reply. As for his sexist insinuation, he is also sadly mistaken. Plenty of the moderators love cock, why would they be unfair to authors with one?

I have no idea how the RR or Editor's Pick is awarded but I would hope that most, if not all, of the Mods have them, if only to prove their expertise.
However, (everyone knew there was a caveat coming, lol.) there is a favouritism, or rather a disfavouritism, towards categories. None for Crossdressing and Trans. Only two for each of Gay Male and Bisexual.
There does seem to be a bias against those categories. I think a way around that would be to have a story picked, say every six months or year, as best in category.
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by Milik_Redman


I invite you to have a look at my profile page. In five years I've been awarded 8 EP's (three are now part of my ebook and are hidden) and probably as many RR's. I can name Frank Lee, Buz Bono and Jaymal who are equally recognized and we are all men.

If you want to stand out, it takes more than perfect grammar and punctuation, indeed, that isn't even a strength of mine. What it takes is a story that is creatively different and meaningful than what is normally seen. I'm afraid that arguing that having a penis somehow detracts from your ability just doesn't pass the smell test.

Are you refering to the renowned penis, smell before oral, test?
Internet Philosopher
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Quote by dpw

I have no idea how the RR or Editor's Pick is awarded but I would hope that most, if not all, of the Mods have them, if only to prove their expertise.
However, (everyone knew there was a caveat coming, lol.) there is a favouritism, or rather a disfavouritism, towards categories. None for Crossdressing and Trans. Only two for each of Gay Male and Bisexual.
There does seem to be a bias against those categories. I think a way around that would be to have a story picked, say every six months or year, as best in category.


I think that would be an excellent idea. I suggest you pose the idea in the feedback thread.
Internet Philosopher
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Quote by dpw

Are you refering to the renowned penis, smell before oral, test?


Hmmm, probably not the best voice of metaphor, I admit.
Brown Sugar
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Quote by overmykneenow

One final point I'd make - how often do you see editors getting a credit in fiction?


Hmm...
Clumeleon
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Quote by dpw
However, (everyone knew there was a caveat coming, lol.) there is a favouritism, or rather a disfavouritism, towards categories. None for Crossdressing and Trans. Only two for each of Gay Male and Bisexual.


In my personal experience, the stories written in those categories are just genuinely not as good. Also, there aren't as many stories written in those categories as there are in others.

However, as RRs and EPs are awarded to stories that really stand out to the moderator as being exceptional, both in terms of writing quality and content, it is possible (likely?) that the personal preferences of awarding moderators will influence the category distribution of the awards.

Your "best in category" idea already (sort of) exists in the sense that you can quickly find the top-rated stories in a category. With this, the power is out of moderator hands as it is based on public votes.

I fear that if we start picking out stories for recognition on a fixed time-scale, we run the risk of simply picking "the best of a bad lot"—there are no guarantees, even over as long a period as a year, that a "worthy" piece will be written in every category. There's also the extra workload it would entail to consider.
Mazztastic
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Quote by clum


In my personal experience, the stories written in those categories are just genuinely not as good. Also, there aren't as many stories written in those categories as there are in others.

However, as RRs and EPs are awarded to stories that really stand out to the moderator as being exceptional, both in terms of writing quality and content, it is possible (likely?) that the personal preferences of awarding moderators will influence the category distribution of the awards.

Your "best in category" idea already (sort of) exists in the sense that you can quickly find the top-rated stories in a category. With this, the power is out of moderator hands as it is based on public votes.

I fear that if we start picking out stories for recognition on a fixed time-scale, we run the risk of simply picking "the best of a bad lot"—there are no guarantees, even over as long a period as a year, that a "worthy" piece will be written in every category. There's also the extra workload it would entail to consider.


I like this idea too... What about if a story could be clicked by the readers, if there was a button or icon they could choose if they felt that a story really stood out?
I realise, like anything else, it would be open to having their pals click it to get them an award, but I'd love to see some sort of readers' choice in place...

I don't know how it would work, but maybe there could be a poll every so often with a small selection of stories that the readers could choose?

It would be especially nice to see lesser known authors up there, the ones who stand out but maybe haven't yet built up a following...

As for editing recognition... I've done it a lot, as a mod, as a paid thing or even just as a favour... Quite frankly, if you want to be remunerated for it in some way, then it's up to you to set that out at the beginning. Other than that, I don't think that a story credit is necessary. A simple thank you is enough and for the author to take your ideas and suggestions on board.
Testing The Waters.
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8 RRs, an EP, and limited interaction on the site beyond posting stories. My EP is from 2012 ( Before RRs even existed ) and I have a 9th RR on the sister site.

As I'm also in possession of dangly bits, I run rather counter to the theory put forth.
Brown Sugar
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Quote by Mazza
As for editing recognition... I've done it a lot, as a mod, as a paid thing or even just as a favour... Quite frankly, if you want to be remunerated for it in some way, then it's up to you to set that out at the beginning. Other than that, I don't think that a story credit is necessary. A simple thank you is enough and for the author to take your ideas and suggestions on board.


Mazza,

He was thanked repeatedly through email and PMs. I missed the story credit, but he was definitely thanked on many occasions. I believe that he was looking for the story credit. Period.
Mazztastic
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Quote by Possibly


Mazza,

He was thanked repeatedly through email and PMs. I missed the story credit, but he was definitely thanked on many occasions. I believe that he was looking for the story credit. Period.


Yes, I see that, but I just meant generally and I agree with what RR says below too... I wouldn't really want or expect a full credit... If it was a book, then the amount of work would probably merit a mention in acknowledgements, but in saying that, I'd expect to be paid for doing it, so again, unless the author felt it necessary, I'd not naturally expect a credit...

I think there's a big distinction between doing someone a favour and providing a professional service.
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by clum


In my personal experience, the stories written in those categories are just genuinely not as good. Also, there aren't as many stories written in those categories as there are in others.

However, as RRs and EPs are awarded to stories that really stand out to the moderator as being exceptional, both in terms of writing quality and content, it is possible (likely?) that the personal preferences of awarding moderators will influence the category distribution of the awards.

Your "best in category" idea already (sort of) exists in the sense that you can quickly find the top-rated stories in a category. With this, the power is out of moderator hands as it is based on public votes.

I fear that if we start picking out stories for recognition on a fixed time-scale, we run the risk of simply picking "the best of a bad lot"—there are no guarantees, even over as long a period as a year, that a "worthy" piece will be written in every category. There's also the extra workload it would entail to consider.

Isn't that the case with The Oscars? In fact, that is the case for every competition on the site. It doesn't follow that every comp has an outstanding entry but there is always a winner.
Selecting a top 12 to choose from is just the top rated each month.
Brown Sugar
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Quote by Mazza


Yes, I see that, but I just meant generally and I agree with what RR says below too... I wouldn't really want or expect a full credit... If it was a book, then the amount of work would probably merit a mention in acknowledgements, but in saying that, I'd expect to be paid for doing it, so again, unless the author felt it necessary, I'd not naturally expect a credit...

I think there's a big distinction between doing someone a favour and providing a professional service.


Your point and RR's point are well taken. My take away from this is that it is important to establish expectations up front. There was no 'acknowledgement of editing' requirement discussed up front. The act was a favor.