We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.

-Willy Wonka

Very reasonable terms, Mr. N. I saw you in the other thread that I quickly left. I had no idea that you were so pro-gun or that you had a gun blog. Coincidentally, I read that thread the night of or the next one after I had come back from the annual NRA banquet. Unfortunately, I believe that there are a few very vocal, and emotional, people on this site with whom you can not be rational. Part of that stemming from the mindset, part from the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory.

I believe the solution cannot come from any 'table' or greater discussion on any higher level than a small group setting. A bunch of people at dinner, getting together to discuss what they really believe and why, where facts must be backed up. It will not come from a soundbite on television, where two heads speak words back and forth for five minutes, or from the president getting behind his podium and reading from a teleprompter. In most of those cases, the loudest ones 'win' the argument, when there even is one. One of the major problems is that there are so many uninformed people who only listen to the voices from sources that they agree with, such as a few of the major news networks. They only hear ''everyone agrees that X is bad'' and follow like sheep.

I have had much better luck talking to people in person, and I think I've done some good. I spoke today with a salesman at Macy's about him getting a CCW. I've talked to other people around town about guns, usually because I'm open-carrying, and we typically leave each other on good terms. I believe I've set a number of people on the right path, looking for fact instead of hype. But here on Lush... When you have some people who don't know the basic difference between Arms and Ordinance and ignore the most basic truths that oppose their fear-driven philosophy...

I wish you the best of luck with this thread.

I'm Canadian. We don't have this kind of discrimination.
Religious beliefs have no right in dictating our insurance benefits from our employers. That would get their business slapped with a lawsuit so fast by the Human Rights Commission that the boss wouldn't even think of trying to pull a stunt like this.
I feel genuinely sorry for the American people. State and Religion have no place mixing together.
Your beliefs are yours... not mine. I will respect it, but I will not be ruled by it.

What about the man who hired you? What about his beliefs? Does he not have any freedom in how he runs his business? Why are you so intent on standing up for YOUR BELIEFS, but so quick to dismiss his? Is it just because he is an employer? A business owner? Do you think that all businesses should be run in the exact same fashion? If you ever own and run a business, will YOUR BELIEFS not longer have any place in how you live and work? Are you now saying that you will pay for my subscription to Playboy?

Insurance costs money. That money comes from your employer. He gets the money by providing a product or a service. When you work for him, you provide him with a service in exchange for some of that money. When you demand more in benefits, that takes more of his money. Most small business owners the world over sacrifice so much to keep that business open that they often take a smaller paycheck than any of the people they employ, and refuse to use the very insurance that is given to those employees. The more you demand from them, the more they lose. They suffer, and the business suffers.

When you demand that your employer pay for contraceptives against his personal belief system, you're telling him that you want more of his money and that you think he's less of a human than you.

Everything here, the business model, the supposed right of a worker to demand more of that producer, is a very large part of why the US is in a recession and why the country is so split. 50% of the people in this country pay no federal tax and complain about getting a fair share when they don't get more benefits. There are millions of people all saying the same thing. I'M ENTITLED. YOU OWE ME THIS. YOUR RELIGION OR BELIEFS DON'T MATTER.

This is not about discrimination. This is not about denying contraception to all women. I wish you could see that.

I took the extreme approach because he (RobinMaxwell) was standing behind the religious beliefs of denying contraception to women. I chose Scientology and mental illness to drive this home. This could possibly happen to anyone and the implications can have far reaching effects.

What I really wanted to know was why people would think this was okay to FIRE a woman because she used contraception. I don't really care WHO pays for it, but I do not think that my boss should have the right to FIRE me for it.

And the problem here is that you think this is all about an employer wanting to or having the right to fire a woman for using a contraceptive. There is no such law. It has been misrepresented in here since the beginning.

Does your contract state that your employer will not pay for contraceptives? Did you use your employer's health insurance to pay for contraceptives? That's a breach of contract. Did you use the insurance to buy birth control pills under the guise of a health risk, when you only wanted them as contraceptives? That's a breach of contract.

Now let's assume that you get an employer who really does want to fire you for using condoms, that you purchased yourself at your local corner store. He was not involved, nor was the health insurance. You know he hates condoms and will fire you if he finds out.

#1 Why the hell would you TELL HIM?

#2 If he fired you just for using condoms, and not, say, for sitting around talking about them and not working, HE would be in violation of your contract AND the law! You could sue him for wrongful termination! The issue would then NOT be your use of contraceptives, but his use of your personal life and his own personal opinion being used in an unjust manner!

I hope this clears things up.

So let me get this right... If I worked for a Scientologist (And it's well known that they don't believe in "coddling" mental illness) and I needed anxiety medication or anti-depressives... or maybe even anti-psychotics that I should be denied?

Have you signed a contract stating that you will work for him and that he will provide you with a paycheck as well as health benefits, but said benefits will not include any medication for anxiety, depression, or psychosis, because it is against the religious beliefs of your employer, who is a Scientologist?

Then yes.

Or you could just work for someone else. I have serious questions about the mental well-being of anyone who would willingly work for a Scientologist.



But your question takes an extreme position against an argument that is not being made.

Birth control pills can be used as a contraceptive, and also for health reasons unrelated to pregnancy.

If you work for a Catholic, and he is against the use of contraceptives on religious grounds, then what right do you have in asking him to pay for your condoms? If you sign a contract, and it states that he will not pay for contraceptives, then you should not have the right to force him to pay for contraceptives. However, birth control pills, because of the aforementioned duality of use, are in a gray area.

Let's say that you signed that contract. Now you've been to a doctor. He says you have a condition unrelated to the need to not be pregnant because you don't want a baby. He prescribes birth control pills. Under the contract, that's a health issue and not a contraceptive one. All you need do now is simply go to your employer with a note from the doctor, you get your pills, and all is better.

You have the pills needed to continues a pleasant life, and he has not been forced to violate his principles.


To put it another way, and more succinctly, if I was to work for you, and I told you that you should pay for my subscription to Playboy, would you be okay with me just shrugging and telling you that you should be forced to pay because it stops my girlfriend from getting pregnant, or would you want a note from my doctor explaining my condition which causes extreme pain if I don't masturbate every two hours?

I have a theory that he is actually an experiment in artificial intelligence.

I just found this in my inbox.

Subject:
dear
Message:
I wish you had some background of social evolution.
Just for a suggestion, try read "Origin of family and state and private property" by Engles.
Though there are many other even later and much more detailed publications.
Please try to read some and maybe you are in a better position to understand my views.

Social evolution is slower than the biological and material evolution and unless we understand how human society evolved from hunting family setup to a society and then from a nomadic society to tribal, feudal, industrial and now in post industrial society, it is really hard to grasp what other societies are doing and behaving.

One needs to understand the social background before passing a certain judgmental opinion about their coleective behaviors.

I still firmly hold that Egyptian society as a whole will never allow to destroy or touch the great historical monuments of pyramid as they are neither nomadic, tribal or even feudal society. Egypt is a well devloped almost an industrial society and any heretics calling aloud to destroy pyramids are just lunatic voices in that society.

Egypty is not a nomad society like Afghanistan where historical bhudda statue was destroyed on the call of lunatic mullahs.

And to conclude; let me tell you, I am an atheist, not for fashion, but arrived at through studies of science, sociology and logic.
I am not defending any Mullah's voice in Egypt.
Did not post it at forum, as I do not wish to cast aspertion upon any collegue of mine at lush.
Naz

From now on, nazhinaz, please don't send me a message. If you are responding to something I wrote in a forum, do so in the forum. I'm going to make a very simple statement here and now about the pyramids, about the people calling for it's destruction, and the nation of Egypt. I'll make it easy for everyone to understand, something with which you seem to have difficulty.

The people calling for the destruction of the pyramids of Egypt are Muslim. The religion of Islam calls for all muslims to conquer all other nations. The koran has instructions on how to do it using various methods. It also calls for all other religions to be destroyed. As you are an atheist, this religion calls for you to be killed as well. The people of Egypt may not have a choice in keeping these great monuments. Muslims are the ones who destroyed the Library of Alexandria, they destroy other cultures and symbols whenever and wherever they can.

You may think that you are an intellectual, that you are above this. Or maybe you believe in a certain human trait that tells you that all these people are inherently good and don't really want to destroy things. Islam has destroyed entire city-states of people who thought the same way. I won't pass judgment on a single muslim, indeed, I know a couple that are decent and kind. But the religion itself is a cancer on this planet. I will certainly pass judgment on an ideology that, in a modern nation such as England, only about a dozen muslims came forward to condemn the murder of an innocent woman by a mob for simply being in the wrong place, but where THIRTY PERCENT think that terrorism by islam towards other people is a good idea.

You want me to read a book about a general social trend? I just want you to go to a website. www.thereligionofpeace.com Read some of it. If you haven't changed your mind, if you still think there's no way that the pyramids of Egypt will ever fall simply because the people of Egypt have a moral obligation... then you're a more poorly coded artificial intelligence than I thought.

I'm sorry, but wtf does this rant actually mean?

I have a theory that he is actually an experiment in artificial intelligence.

Do the ends really justify the means? Is that in most cases or just a few?

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

They would be complete idiots to loose such a source of major income for that country. I mean seriously it would be close to a shot in the foot for their economy considering how much Egypt takes in from tourism

http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/non-wheels-discussions/149915-afghanistan-50-years-ago

Hint: Most of them don't care about tourism or money, or at least don't care about them as much as having a caliphate and worldwide sharia.

http://www.rawa.org/bamyan2.jpg

http://www.rawa.org/statue2.jpg

The worlds tallest Buddha before and after, destroyed by muslims in the name of allah.