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At least 18 children and 9 others dead in Connecticut school shooting. Does this change your mind ab Options · View
CurlyGirly
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:21:39 PM

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Poppet wrote:
TURN OFF THE NEWS.......


Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.


It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."



It makes sense, but it's not a statement Morgan Freeman made. It's a hoax. I'm sure you can thank FB for that.

If we turn off the news and don't listen does that mean people will stop talking about it endlessly on FB and also here? Aren't we all doing the same thing, adding to his notoriety? I've posted on this thread, so I guess I'm guilty as well if this is part of the cause.
VanGogh
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:29:18 PM

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Mental Health is the core to this horrendous situation. We all have to agree that a "normal" person would not even have a flicker of a thought, that going into a school of young children intent on a killing spree is a solution to any problem.

I cannot comment on the Gun Issues ... I am a Canadian and I don't understand why people want to own a gun if they are not hunters of moose (not hunters of people!). I feel sorry for a society that feels that if you don't have a gun in your possession, you are vulnerable.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:12:54 PM

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Things that make me sad:

For the families of 20 children, Xmas will no longer be season of joy and beauty, but rather a time of grief.

That this is not the last time something like this will happen.

That this tragedy, instead of bringing us together, is dividing us, into those who insist guns are the only answer and those of us who think there are other answers.

That some of you live in places where armed home invasions are such a common occurrence that you need to keep handguns and semi automatic weapons close at hand at all times.

That the US gov’t makes a habit of sending out their jackbooted thugs and kicking in peoples doors and taking away their rights at whim.

That it is so easy to get a gun. I looked it up. I could buy a gun that allows me to shoot 40 round a minute and ammunition that is made specifically for killing people. In 5 days I, who have no criminal record or history of pysch issues, could arm myself and then, turn around and give it to anyone I want. Something tells me that the bullets I saw advertised aren’t used on paper targets or deer.

That most of the kids I grew up with who owned guns, because it was the cool thing to do, because they needed protection, because it was normal in my hood, are either dead or have done time for violent crimes.

That people are shot every day, sometimes on purpose, sometimes in a drunken rage, sometimes by people who should never be let near a gun, and sometimes by accident because they were playing with their dad’s gun.

That one day, it will happen to me, or someone I love, or someone here and another beautiful, bright star will be forever gone from our sky, making the night even darker.

That I have had to witnessed shootings in my life, one of which was a friend, one of which was fatal.

That I was almost the victim of collateral damage when someone put three bullets through my bedroom window in a drive by instead of my neighbor’s apt.

Selfishly, a day we have hoped and waited for and worked towards was overshadowed by this awful tragedy. In respect, we post-poned our “wedding”. It just didn’t seem right to celebrate on a day where so many families lost so much, nor do we want to be reminded each and every year on our anniversary of this tragedy.

Things that make me happy:

That I have never been shot or shot someone.

That, despite never having a gun anywhere I’ve ever lived (once I moved out of my dad’s house as a teen) I have ever been the victim of armed home invasion. Nor have jackbooted gov’t thugs ever kicked in my door.

That, not once on the street I live with my wife, has there been a shooting or armed invasion.

That, when I was assaulted this past summer at knifepoint I was not carrying a gun. I was unable to employ the pepper spray I carried. Had I had a gun, I wouldn’t have been able to use it either. He might have, though.

That the night my ex decided to beat me half to death, there wasn’t a gun in the house for him to use to finish the job.

That my wife shares my views on guns and that there will never be a gun in our house.

That there are people who feel as strongly about gun control as I do. Sane, reasonable people.

That the slogans that pro-gun owners used aren’t adapted into other areas in the past...

-If we criminalize guns, then bad people are going to get guns anyways and shoot people.
-If we criminalize rape, than bad people are going to do it anyway.


In closing, yes, if this man had been armed with a knife or a bat, he probably would have seriously hurt some children, perhaps even fatally. Probably not 20 of them, though. Kids can outrun mad knife wielding men. They can’t outrun bullets. Get it right: Guns don’t kill people, people wielding guns kill people.



Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:20:50 PM

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Just heard about this tweet on Meet The Press - very interesting comments by Mayor Bloomberg on how New York city has lowered gun violence by 90 percent with stricter gun laws.



Nicola Bridle
@nicster

One guy tries to use a shoe bomb = Everyone at the airport takes their shoes off. 31 school shootings since Columbine = no changes.


You kids have fun discussing how much better off we are with 300 million guns in the USA.
I'm gonna lock my doors and say a prayer for Charlton Heston, the patron saint of murdered children.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:35:46 PM

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Oberon wrote:




Nicola Bridle
@nicster

One guy tries to use a shoe bomb = Everyone at the airport takes their shoes off. 31 school shootings since Columbine = no changes.


You kids have fun discussing how much better off we are with 300 million guns in the USA.
I'm gonna lock my doors and say a prayer for Charlton Heston, the patron saint of murdered children.


Word.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:54:21 PM

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does not change mine at all. If guns kill people than my pencil is responsible for all my spelling errors in school.

You can do allyou want to control guns but it will be the one with ill intentions that will have them.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:58:30 PM

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Stampede wrote:
does not change mine at all. If guns kill people than my pencil is responsible for all my spelling errors in school.

You can do allyou want to control guns but it will be the one with ill intentions that will have them.


and arming teachers and elementary kids is a better solution? honesty, if someone told me that i would have to start carrying a gun as part of my job, i'd quit. oh, and it wouldn't be just the ones with ill intentions who would have them. it would be the cops as well. remember those? the guys whose job it is to keep the peace and carry a gun and protect us from the ones with ill intentions? maybe if the NRA put all the money they do to make sure that everyone who wants a semi automatic gun can have one into local law enforcement budgets, we'd have enough cops to do just that.


Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:34:10 PM

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I think a lot of people in this thread have missed the fact that Adam Lanza did NOT buy these guns. I'm assuming when his mother bought them, for whatever reason, she went through all the normal procedures. 5 day waiting period and background check, etc. etc. He took them from her. People that knew him said he was "strange". Doctors have speculated that he might have had Asperger syndrome. What has happened has nothing to do with gun control laws. What it appears to be, and this is only speculation on my part as the investigation is still UNDERWAY, is that she didn't have them secured from him. Or if she knew he was a danger to himself and others.
Gotta love Monday morning quarterbacks.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:39:12 PM

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chefkathleen wrote:
I think a lot of people in this thread have missed the fact that Adam Lanza did NOT buy these guns. I'm assuming when his mother bought them, for whatever reason, she went through all the normal procedures. 5 day waiting period and background check, etc. etc. He took them from her. People that knew him said he was "strange". Doctors have speculated that he might have had Asperger syndrome. What has happened has nothing to do with gun control laws. What it appears to be, and this is only speculation on my part as the investigation is still UNDERWAY, is that she didn't have them secured from him. Or if she knew he was a danger to himself and others.
Gotta love Monday morning quarterbacks.


why did his mom need semi automatic guns? and really, if owning a gun is a RESPONSIBILITY, shouldn't be keeping it somewhere where someone can't use it to kill kids be part of that responsibility?


LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:40:22 PM

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Jesus Christ. It has everything to do with gun control laws. The fact that anybody can buy these goddamn guns is a big problem. Doesnt matter that he didnt personally buy them. How is voicing opinions anything but "Monday morning quarterbacking"? Like its a bad thing? Yes, less discourse is better.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:42:20 PM

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How does it have anything to do with gun control laws? He did not buy them. And it's Monday morning quarterbacking because everyone things immediately about how if we had no guns or more gun laws that people like him would never get a gun and kill people. They figure all of this out before even knowing the facts in the case. I don't know how long she had the guns, do you? I don't know how she got them, do you? Did she get them illegally? Did she go through proper channels? If she'd had none at all would he not have done this? It makes no sense to jump to conclusions without facts.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:46:01 PM

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But that's the whole point of the think tank LOL. To jump to conclusions without facts. Seriously though, it could be weeks before "everything" is known, and then whose version of "everything" is it? Until then, should we all stay silent? Everyone is free to do just that, but it's not anybody's diligent duty to do so. Far as I know, none of us shape actual policy.

If the guns were legally obtained, it's an issue. If they were illegally obtained, it's an issue. As is our whole equal parts violent and gun-nut culture.
LadyX
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:56:24 PM

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If less guns total and no assault weapons were available, then less of these would occur, despite NRA nuttery counterpointing. That much is clear.
PrimalMind
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:06:59 PM

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Removing a constitutional right is going to be VERY hard to do in this country.

echopomp
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:18:56 PM

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it is clear that you guys in the states have some serious issues to resolve.

however it is a very simple equation is your constitutional right to bear arms worth the lives of 20 children?

anyone who thinks the answer is yes, is far to twisted to own a gun.

why would anyone need to own an assualt rifle? it is a weapon of war! it was designed to kill people.

some people here keep banging on about the idea that everything can be used as a weapon, and in some cases they are correct. But most objects are not designed to be weapons. A blnder or a lawn-mower can kill, but hell you need to be pretty inventive to do so.

a gun is a weapon, it is designed to kill, that is it's only purpose.

if you give people something that is designed to be used as a weapon, they will use it as a weapon.

This whole matter make me very sad. 20 children ages 6 & 7 are dead because it is easy to get guns in the US.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:39:28 PM

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echopomp wrote:
it is clear that you guys in the states have some serious issues to resolve.

however it is a very simple equation is your constitutional right to bear arms worth the lives of 20 children?

anyone who thinks the answer is yes, is far to twisted to own a gun.

why would anyone need to own an assualt rifle? it is a weapon of war! it was designed to kill people.

some people here keep banging on about the idea that everything can be used as a weapon, and in some cases they are correct. But most objects are not designed to be weapons. A blnder or a lawn-mower can kill, but hell you need to be pretty inventive to do so.

a gun is a weapon, it is designed to kill, that is it's only purpose.

if you give people something that is designed to be used as a weapon, they will use it as a weapon.

This whole matter make me very sad. 20 children ages 6 & 7 are dead because it is easy to get guns in the US.


no. not in my world. nor should it be in any one's world. it's heartbreaking. it's one opinion i am stubborn on and refuse to back down. people don't need to own handguns and semi automatic weapons and armor piercing bullets and hollow points or any other weapon of mass destruction, because, when you come right down to it, that is what they are. WOMDs. unless it's your JOB to carry a gun, or you have a hunting gun - you know the kind, single shot, so you make the hunt an actual sport, then you shouldn't own a gun. period. if you feel the need to protect yourself, pepper spray or a taser or self defense lessons. learn how to use your tools, and learn how to be aware of your surroundings. fight smart, not deadly.


principessa
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:45:18 PM

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In November Americans bought more than 2 million guns. On Black Friday, the FBI reported more than 154,000 background checks for gun purchases. There are more stores selling guns in the US than McDonald's. And that does not include all of the gun shows and sales there which skip the background checks. (from ABC News)

Why is this necessary?

Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:57:42 PM

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I feel sum it up best.
Frank_Lee
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 5:03:32 PM

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principessa wrote:
In November Americans bought more than 2 million guns. On Black Friday, the FBI reported more than 154,000 background checks for gun purchases. There are more stores selling guns in the US than McDonald's. And that does not include all of the gun shows and sales there which skip the background checks. (from ABC News)

Why is this necessary?


The brief answer would be...it's not.



Guest
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:21:09 PM

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I must admit to being absolutely devastated by this tragedy.

Whilst there are many, many, things I admire and love about the States, I just don't get this need to bear arms.

The right to defend one's family and property is one that I totally understand, but is the threat of gun toting looters REALLY a reality? Are those people using this as a justification GENUINELY living in fear of their homes being invaded and being shot in their sleep? Are those who carry concealed weapons genuinely too scared to go to the supermarket without carrying a pistol?

I've visited the States dozens of times and have never felt in the slightest bit threatened or in danger. Have I been completely naive, or is this threat somewhat imagined?

From what's been on the news here, the shooter and his mum lived in a pretty up-market and safe looking neighbourhood. It seems bizarre that his mother felt the need to be, (legally), armed to the teeth with pistols and a semi-automatic rifle.

A genuine, (but admittedly slightly antagonistic), question here for those who still don't want tighter control on guns - Would you still feel the same if god forbid this happens again, and YOUR children are gunned down in the next massacre? Or would it still be an unfortunate price worth paying to keep the 2nd Amendment?

I just don't see that trying to pre-empt any future massacres by giving counselling/therapy to all potential killers is the answer. Is every person with Aspergers a potential killer? Is every slightly, 'odd', person, a potential killer? Is every alienated emo/goth school kid a potential killer? It's impossible to identify and stop every potential mass murderer, so I can't see this not happening again.
sprite
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:25:41 PM

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Something i shared somewhere else, but would like to share in part here as well:

don't have an issue with responsible gun owners - my issue is from the idiots spouting off slogans who have the attitude of 'if you want to take my guns, you're gonna have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands'. i have a deep seated hatred of guns. where i grew up you had a gun for one reason, and one reason only. to shoot another human being. perhaps i am unreasonable, but i think not - living in WA state, i have friends who own guns. Hunting rifles. they go out and shoot at deer during hunting season. you can put a bullet at a time in them if i understand it correctly. they keep them locked up and unloaded when they are not using them. i am fine with that, i never say a word to them about how they shouldn't own a gun.

my issue is with the guys who own handguns and semi autos. those things aren't meant for sport. they are meant to kill people and many of them are full of "rightous anger". no, not all gun proponents come off that way, but enough do to put the fear of god into this law abiding citizen!

do i think guns are inherently bad? no. they are a tool, and just like any other tool, they can be used either responsibly or irresponsibly. in this country, it is of my opinion, that we need laws to enforce responsible use since it is a proven FACT that people are incapable of doing that themselves. sorry, but i would rather trample on your rights to own a gun then have to wake up to see another news report of kids, adults, anyone, being mass murdered. it sickens me that the NRA can pump millions of dollars into assuring people of their rights to turn themselves into killing machines, but can't spare a single penny to ensure that something like this never happened in the first place - didn't Columbine teach us any lessons? those kids could have at least died for a reason, to make sure that no one else would ever die like that again. their deaths were wasted and sadly, the kids in CT's deaths will probably be wasted as well when, in 6 months time, someone else opens fire on a day care center somewhere.

am i angry? yes. am i sad? yes. am i disgusted, hell yes. sorry, most of you may very well be responsible people, but i also know that even if only 5% of gun owners are irrespsonsible idiots, that's one hell of a lot of tragedies in the making in our future.

and no, i am not calling all gun owners jerk faces - i call them as i see them - your actions as individuals speak for themselves, as do mine.


tazznjazz
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:46:14 PM

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CurlyGirly wrote:



It makes sense, but it's not a statement Morgan Freeman made. It's a hoax. I'm sure you can thank FB for that.

If we turn off the news and don't listen does that mean people will stop talking about it endlessly on FB and also here? Aren't we all doing the same thing, adding to his notoriety? I've posted on this thread, so I guess I'm guilty as well if this is part of the cause.

Charlotte Bacon(6)Daniel Barden(7)Olivia Engel(6)Josephine Gay(7)Ana Marquez-Greene(6)Dylan Hockley(6)Madaleine Hsu(6)Cathy Hubbard(6)Chase Kowalski(7)Jesse Lewis(6)James Mattioli(6)Grace McDonnel(7)Emilie Parker(6)Jack Pinto(6)Noah Pozner(6)caroline Previdi(6)Jessica Rekos(6)Avielle Richman(6)Ben Wheeler(6)AllisonWyatt(6)Rachel Davino(47)Dawn Hochsprung(47)Anne Murphy(52)LaurenRouseau(30)Mary Sherlach(56)and VictoriaSoto(27) will never again wake up on a Christmas morning with their families because NRA loons insist their phallus replacement toys are a right protected by an amendment that was outdated 200 years ago. Blame the media, lack of mental health care, video games, but lets fix this insane gun ownership issue NOW!
DavidTheDeer
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:10:30 PM

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Removal of guns will not solve this issue, it'll just force them to use less "humane" tools to get the job done. (IE: Bombs, or just driving their car right though the playground).

The same day all these people died, some guy was over in China stabbing 23 people in a school. The only true way to solve this issue is to find these people before they have a chance to commit these crimes.

That being said, if the schools had had armed and trained security guards on the premises I'd be willing to bet this would have played out different in both cases.

In the end I’d rather these people show up to schools with guns rather than explosives (for example what happened in Bath, Michigan, May 18 1927).
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:19:59 PM

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foxjack wrote:


The same day all these people died, some guy was over in China stabbing 23 people in a school. The only true way to solve this issue is to find these people before they have a chance to commit these crimes.



The difference is that there were no fatalities in the stabbing spree.
Psycho with a knife vs. psycho with a gun. There's a big difference when it comes to probable survival.


DavidTheDeer
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:26:45 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


The difference is that there were no fatalities in the stabbing spree.
Psycho with a knife vs. psycho with a gun. There's a big difference when it comes to probable survival.

Still, it looks like in both cases they were equally powerless to stop the person threatening them.

I'm sure if he had the time to stab 20 separate people he easily could have focused his efforts on killing a few less.

In either case it’s not the tools fault that people are killed, it’s the messed up fuck that uses them.

Now if they had trained security guards on the grounds both of these cases would have turned out a lot better.
angieseroticpen
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 2:27:44 AM

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seanabumble wrote:
A few kids are a price worth paying so you can pose in front of the mirror with a lethal weapon apparently.


Think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's a bit like those old Marlboro cigarette ads. That poser looked so manly with his lighted cigarette in hand and the fools that followed ended up with all sorts of cancers (as well as poisoning others!). Here we have the NRA lobby posers in fantasy land, the bigger the gun the tougher they look. I just wonder when, like Marlboro, someone will take court action against the gun manufacturers for loss of life or disability created by their product. Far fetched idea? That's what the tobacco manufacturers thought all those years ago.

“When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.”
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 6:17:55 AM

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foxjack wrote:

Still, it looks like in both cases they were equally powerless to stop the person threatening them.

I'm sure if he had the time to stab 20 separate people he easily could have focused his efforts on killing a few less.

In either case it’s not the tools fault that people are killed, it’s the messed up fuck that uses them.

Now if they had trained security guards on the grounds both of these cases would have turned out a lot better.


The gun laws are also very different in both places, which is the point I'm trying to make (about survival probability). You have to control what you can control. To me, that means the available weapon the person is reaching for. In China, gun laws are extremely strict, so he grabbed a knife. Yes, he stabbed a lot of people in that timeframe, but 100% of them survived. If that same guy had access to a firearm you can bet there would be some fatalities even if he was tackled by a security guard early on.

I just think arming a society and then arming security guards everywhere to deal with that society doesn't make logical sense. Personally, I wouldn't want to see guys with guns manning schools, malls, doctor's offices, restaurants, bars and children's playgrounds.

Sure, there are people out there that if they are well connected with the right channels can obtain a gun illegally. This still requires enough effort that not everyone is going to be successful with procuring them. The type of person that typically goes on these rampage killing sprees are often very young (ie. teens) or mentally ill, or both. They are typically reaching for the guns their parents or family own because that's all that's accessible to them. Other times, it's a crime of passion (ie. the guy just lost his job, his wife cheated etc) and in a fit of rage, he grabs his own gun and acts before he can think logically. It's the path of least resistance. They're going for whatever is there, in their house, at the moment or whatever they can easily walk into a store and buy outright.

By the same token it's like saying, well they should legalize all drugs since people can still buy them illegally if they want to anyway. The reason drugs aren't legalized is because the law acts as a 'limiting factor'. Society is trying to limit how accessible they are to the masses, and especially vulnerable groups like teens, the mentally ill and those that might never have to risk addiction because they simply don't have access to certain connections and channels required to obtain them.




echopomp
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 9:02:05 AM

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Now if they had trained security guards on the grounds both of these cases would have turned out a lot better.

what planet are you living on?

lets have more people with guns. that will make the problem better! have you heard of the cold war?

the whole point is that easy access to guns makes this type of thing easy to accomplish. Yes the people who perform these horrific acts are mad, but allowing them access to guns just gives them the tools for the job.

sorry but the explosives argument is insane.

yes there are mad people in the world, yes they do horrible things, but if you can make the world safer by removing the main tool that is used to kill people then clearly it is the right thing to do.

i am begining to think that people who are pro-gun are posting stuff to annoy other people, because I honestly can't believe anyone is stupid enough to say the things that they are saying.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 9:02:33 AM

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Oh look, here's another one.




Brave parents sending their kids to school these days.


LadyX
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 9:19:39 AM

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I was out of town (and still am) when I heard the news. There's been criticism here in the tank about jumping to conclusions and flying off the handle with opinions, etc. I think the discussion is healthy for the most part. I was shaking my head when I saw an NRA spokesperson on TV, already playing zone defense politics an hour after the fact, perhaps even as a few clung to their last breaths. Maybe some would say that people here are guilty of the same reactionary speech, from either side, but we're just goofballs on the internet. We don't shape policy or disseminate information professionally. It's important to express ourselves and share, just as co-workers or neighbors might.

I also think the gun-nut label gets thrown out there too quickly at times, myself included, but I wonder if some of you know how you sound when this stuff gets discussed. Any discussion of gun control as a general subject immediately conjures creepy diatribes about government goons in "jack boots" (learned a new term, at least), and comparisons between guns and cars, leading to breathless "well should we just ban cars too??" rhetoric, and then the stat wars get launched, where two sides lob opposing sets of 'facts' at each other. I'm at the point now, that when numbers get posted, I check out completely. Big numbers designed to sway arguments do me, and us, no good. Garbage in, garbage out.

Personally, I don't think taking away everyone's guns is a practical option, or perhaps even a good idea. I do think widespread availability of so-called "assault weapons" is kind of insane, conceptually. Why is this necessary? Is it all about the 2nd Amendment? The right to bear arms? Is there no limit to this in anyone's mind? Should we as individual citizens, ever vigilant against an oppressive gubmint, have a right to possess SCUD missiles, too? How about weapons grade plutonium?

The Second Amendment guarantees those rights in a well-regulated militia. If memory serves, that's the wording. If we can concede that the definition of "militia" is taken rather liberally by gun-ownership proponents, can we be met halfway and begin to look at the specifics of legal gun ownership with less of a hard grumpy-bastard Heston-esque "cold, dead hands" approach?

Sadly, I think the answer is "no". Any discussion of lives lost- specifically within the question "how many lost lives is the refusal to have this discussion worth?"- is the automatic cue to get immersed in stats about how many lives are saved. It's just like every other political subject; we all talk past each other, not to each other. Fear and political tribalism continue to trump big-picture reassessments, and we're all guilty of it.



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