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At least 18 children and 9 others dead in Connecticut school shooting. Does this change your mind ab Options · View
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:20:43 PM

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New York Times
EDITORIAL | THE GUN CHALLENGE
In Other Countries, Laws Are Strict and Work
Published: December 17, 2012


Like other shootings before it, the Newtown, Conn., tragedy has reawakened America to its national fixation with firearms. No country in the world has more guns per capita, with some 300 million civilian firearms now in circulation, or nearly one for every adult.



Experts from the Harvard School of Public Health, using data from 26 developed countries, have shown that wherever there are more firearms, there are more homicides. In the case of the United States, exponentially more: the American murder rate is roughly 15 times that of other wealthy countries, which have much tougher laws controlling private ownership of guns.

There’s another important difference between this country and the rest of the world. Other nations have suffered similar rampages, but they have reacted quickly to impose new and stricter gun laws.

Australia is an excellent example. In 1996, a “pathetic social misfit,” as a judge described the lone gunman, killed 35 people with a spray of bullets from semiautomatic weapons. Within weeks, the Australian government was working on gun reform laws that banned assault weapons and shotguns, tightened licensing and financed gun amnesty and buyback programs.

At the time, the prime minister, John Howard, said, “We do not want the American disease imported into Australia.” The laws have worked. The American Journal of Law and Economics reported in 2010 that firearm homicides in Australia dropped 59 percent between 1995 and 2006. In the 18 years before the 1996 laws, there were 13 gun massacres resulting in 102 deaths, according to Harvard researchers, with none in that category since.

Similarly, after 16 children and their teacher were killed by a gunman in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, the British government banned all private ownership of automatic weapons and virtually all handguns. Those changes gave Britain some of the toughest gun control laws in the developed world on top of already strict rules. Hours of exhaustive paperwork are required if anyone wants to own even a shotgun or rifle for hunting. The result has been a decline in murders involving firearms.

In Japan, which has very strict laws, only 11 people killed with guns in 2008, compared with 12,000 deaths by firearms that year in the United States — a huge disparity even accounting for the difference in population. As Mayor Michael Bloomberg stressed on Monday while ratcheting up his national antigun campaign, “We are the only industrialized country that has this problem. In the whole world, the only one.”

Americans do not have to settle for that.
tender_cowboy
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:29:14 PM

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Location: South Dakota
It is against the law to take a gun in to a "Gun Free School Zone"... so we make a law, to make breaking the law, against the law.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:35:35 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,769
tender_cowboy wrote:
It is against the law to take a gun in to a "Gun Free School Zone"... so we make a law, to make breaking the law, against the law.


What law is that not true of? Anytime you make a law, then those that break the law are subject to conviction.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:45:14 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 891,710
Recently heard this man on the news speak about this incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Welner
Dr. Michael Welner a forensic psychiatrist.
Stole this from his wiki page:
Quote:
Michael Mark Welner, M.D., (born September 24, 1964, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) is an American forensic psychiatrist. He is founder and Chairman of The Forensic Panel, a forensic science practice, is an Associate Professor of Psychiatry at New York University School of Medicine and an Adjunct Professor of Law Duquesne University School of Law. He has acted as lead forensic psychiatric examiner or as a key consultant in numerous criminal or civil court proceedings around the United States, many of which gained national and international prominence. Welner is known for developing protocols for forensic peer review through The Forensic Panel, as well as his research to standardize the distinction of the worst of crimes, the Depravity Scale. He is also recognizable as a commentator on network television news programs, and has written a number of publications for professional and public audiences.




Quote:
Forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner was asked shed some light on who Adam Lanza really was.
He said people who commit these types of crimes start as a very resentful and alienated person who blames everyone else. The person is also someone who identifies with destruction as a matter of stature. And lastly, these people are usually socially and/or sexually frustrated and have no confindence. Dr. Welner said they will continually “blame everyone around them.”
Dr. Welner said the 24 hour news cycle continually builds up murderers and glorifies them. He said they would be nothing, but the media makes them into something.
He also pointed out not every person who commits sadistic murders such as the one at Sandy Hook is someone with a mental illness. It could be anyone at all that “taps into the idea that people deserve” what is coming to them. Dr. Welner called it a life choice. People plan extensively to carry out these crimes and if they become determined enough, they will carry out their plans.

Why Adam Lanza focused on children,Dr. Welner simply said it was because they were small and easy to get too. He said these types of people want a bigger body count because they think it will give them some sort of legacy, which it may within the media. The worse the crime, the more shocked people are and the more attention the killer is going to get.

Mental Illness Could Have Cloaked Signs of Resentment

Many people have been saying Lanza could have been autistic, which Dr. Welner said could be true. But he pointed out the autism was not what caused him to commit this heinous crime. The austism may have been a cloak though. It may have hid some of the symptoms every mass murderer has in common:
Suspicious and harbor resentment
Hopelessness
Identification with destruction
Dr. Welner said none of these point to autism but they could easily be cloacked by the illness.

How to Stop the Violence in America:

Dr. Welner said this does not need to continue to happen. He said school shootings such as this one have exploded over the past 20 years for two reasons:
24 hour news cycles
Violent video games
Twenty Four hour news cycle promote the violence because they can take an anonymous person and can make them larger than life.Video game violence is Dr. Welner’s second reason there is prolific violence in America. He said for someone who is developmentally disabled, the worst thing to do is isolate them and let them play violent video games where they can get points for killing people. He said as a forensic psychiatrist he never sees people with five to 11 bullet holes in them. That just shows a type of malice that is learned from violent video games.

How to Fix America
Dr. Welner said he can “unreservedly say mass homicide will get worse” but we can be better. He said everyone needs to take part:
Parents need to teach children to take responsibility
Parents need to teach children how to be resilient and get back up after life trips you up
Neighbors need to set a good example of empathy for children
Everyone needs to keep video games out of the house
Stop paying for violence in movies, news, TV and everywhere else
Teach children to be creative and volunteer their time

WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:58:13 PM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 11,229
Location: Cakeland
chefkathleen wrote:
Recently heard this man


I can get behind this thoughtful analysis.

Obscenity is the last refuge of an inarticulate motherfucker.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:06:49 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 891,710
WellMadeMale wrote:


I can get behind this thoughtful analysis.


Gee thanks Jeff. evil4
lafayettemister
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:21:56 PM

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Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,712
Location: Alabama, United States
chefkathleen wrote:

Dr. Welner said the 24 hour news cycle continually builds up murderers and glorifies them. He said they would be nothing, but the media makes them into something.

Twenty Four hour news cycle promote the violence because they can take an anonymous person and can make them larger than life.


I think this is a huge contributing factor. Guns may be how they carry out their destruction, but media notoriety fuels their mindset of finally being seen, recognized, and known.

People my age and older may recall that at one time, people running onto football and baseball fields during Nationally televised games was fairly common. At first it was funny and the announcers would joke and laugh. But then it became a problem, it happened at most games and it became a major distraction. Everyone wanted their 15 minutes of fame. Tv stations picked up on it and instructed camera crews to cut away and NOT film field invaders, announcers began ridiculing people who ran onto the field of play. It became UNpopular and there was no payoff. Now you get locked up and/or fined and you don't get shown on tv. So guess what, people don't do it anywhere near as often.

I know it's a whole different world, running onto the field and killing people. But without the media giving them glory, maybe the next guy wouldn't seek notoriety doing the same thing.

edit... .i think the news media should refrain from showing his fucking picture or saying his name. refer to him only as "the shooter" or soemthing like that. no name or picture recognition





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:31:45 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,769
TEACHERS WITH GUNS OK, SAYS GOV. -CNN.com

How did I know, out of 50 possibilities, that this idiot was responsible for the comments, simply upon seeing the headline?
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:41:03 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 891,710
If by 'the media' you include ads by gun manufacturers, then yeah.


http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/12/gun-ads-bushmaster-mattel
echopomp
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:42:58 PM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 190

I agree, how can anyone believe more guns = more safety
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:55:28 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 891,710

Well, if you keep drinking you never get a hangover...

echopomp wrote:

I agree, how can anyone believe more guns = more safety
CurlyGirly
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:59:03 PM

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Joined: 10/5/2012
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Location: United States
Sadly, this sums up the 8 pages of this thread, and I'm sure the next 8 as well. dontknow

sprite
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 5:19:09 PM

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Just wanted to take a deep breath and remind everyone what is important here...
For some of you, it might be this:



for me, it is this:

Olivia Rose Engel, dead at the age of 6.



maybe you should take a second and think about what's really important here.




Guest
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:34:15 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 891,710

An eloquent summation of a tragic event.
Well said, Sprite.





sprite wrote:
Just wanted to take a deep breath and remind everyone what is important here...
For some of you, it might be this:



for me, it is this:

Olivia Rose Engel, dead at the age of 6.



maybe you should take a second and think about what's really important here.

Dudealicious
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:05:02 PM

Rank: Wise Ass
Moderator

Joined: 11/12/2010
Posts: 5,686
Location: The center of the universe, Canada
foxjack wrote:


And what do you when you see a threat and have nothing to combat it? Get in line for the gas chambers I suppose...

Drunk driving kills about 27 people a day, guns do about 24-30 (some articles state less and others state more); I see a threat, worst yet that threat is everywhere on the road. I'll also point out that some gun violence is directly linked with drinking. Getting rid of the 21st seems like just as good of an idea as the second, if not better. After all, all drinking does is cost you money and allow you to temporally run away from your problems, sometimes having the side effect of making them much worse. At least when gun violence comes up it isn’t' the gun that caused the mental instability, it was already present.


This will most likely be my last post in here.

Foxjack. When you are finally in a position in your life to have kids of your own, I sure hope that your views change and you look your little ones in the eyes and cherish the time you have with them knowing that they (under unforeseen circumstances) may be taken from you at any minute. I hope love fills your heart and you do not arm your house. Afterall your young ones may "happen" upon your firearms one day and god forbid a tragic event occurs.

Also based on your facts and figures you continue to post in here I strongly urge you and your family members stop driving immediately and take public transit for the rest of your lives. You seem very concerned about drunk driving and the statistics that surround it. I'm pleading with you DO NOT DRIVE!!!

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families that have lost their innocent children. May strength and courage get you through this holiday season.

The night that changed my life, a four part series of a married man lusting after his co-worker

angieseroticpen
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:09:25 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:
For those of you that promote "gun control", what kind of control are you advocating. What plan of action would you like to see take place? What restrictions do you want in place? If you want to ban all guns completely, how do you propose to get the ones already out there? How do you propose to gather the millions of unlicensed/unregistered guns possessed by criminals? After guns are banned, what will happen to someone who commits a crime with an illegal gun?

Tell us what you mean by "gun control". Right now I'm reading nothing but ban guns and hope for the best. That's a scary idea in my mind.



Up until 1996 Australia had very much the same problem that America has today. In the 18 years before the banning of semi automatic weapons and the buyback of weapons in circulation there were 103 massacres (4 or more people killed), since 1996 there have been none. Suicides and homicides in the decade following the ban were also reduced by 59%. Gun control can and does work if the will is there. If Australia can rid itself of the 'Cowboy' mentality so can the USA.

“When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.”
DavidTheDeer
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:22:34 AM

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Location: Pierre, United States
CleverFox wrote:


Take all of you semi-automatic weapons you want. If the military decided to take over this country they would use M-1 tanks, predictor drones with hell fire missiles and other equipment that your guns couldn't do squat to stop.

"Predator Drone Strikes: 50 Civilians Are Killed For Every 1 Terrorist, and the CIA Only Wants to Up Drone Warfare "

Tanks are very maneuverable, it’s not going to be driving around on the 5th floor of a skyscraper trying to get people, eventually people will have to get out of their tanks and come in on foot, then you take hostages.

Best case scenario people realize how dumb it is to be killing their own people, worst case people become martyrs.
ByronLord
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:31:20 AM

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foxjack wrote:

"Predator Drone Strikes: 50 Civilians Are Killed For Every 1 Terrorist, and the CIA Only Wants to Up Drone Warfare "

Tanks are very maneuverable, it’s not going to be driving around on the 5th floor of a skyscraper trying to get people, eventually people will have to get out of their tanks and come in on foot, then you take hostages.

Best case scenario people realize how dumb it is to be killing their own people, worst case people become martyrs.


Well that is just the point, since WWI most wars have ended because the populations refused to keep fighting. Germany was not defeated militarily, its soldiers just stopped fighting and deserted in larger number than the allies. Same happened on the Russian front with the Russian troops.

Right now the Syrian army is collapsing due to desertions on a massive scale. The US withdrew from Vietnam because support for the war was broken at home.

The idea that a US president could order the use of the US army against the population of the US without starting a civil war is really rather weird. The Libyan rebels were mostly armed with guns taken from government depots. Same is true in Syria.

The weapons from Libya are currently washing across North Africa. Hence the fighting going on in Mali and parts of Nigeria. That is mostly driven by armed gangs that were formerly Ghadaffi's mercenaries who have made their way out of the country with little more than their rifle and some clips of ammunition.

The US government is not an automata. It is made up of people and those people have rather different internal agendas. Any of the fanciful gun-nut 'gubermint takover' scenarios would require a huge force of Stormtroopers to carry it out. They would have to be fed a bunch of lies about some group going to take away their rights and their guns and make them slaves so you would need a propaganda outfit, lets call that Box News. And there would have to be a club for them all to join and wave flags for, call it the MeParty.

Come on, we know which side the gun nuts would be on in the scenarios they propose it would be the one with the guns and the highly polished jackboots.

sexyvette2469
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:31:18 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/30/2012
Posts: 190
Location: United States
This tragedy only makes me more thankful that I am a licensed gun owner with a ''carry permit''. Responsible owners keep their guns in a gun safe and, additionally have trigger locks on handguns. Even if my home is broken in to no one will be finding or using my weapons.

Had the kids mother stored her weapons properly he would not have had the access that permitted this disaster. Too bad he killed her first.

Hopefully there is somewhere just a bit worse than ''''hell'''' for this mother and son. She allowed the tragedy and is the poster person for bad gun owner of the year.

Guns have never hurt or killed a person without the hand of an evil person on them.

echopomp
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:51:27 AM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 190

i am loosing the will to fight on.

the US gun lobby is full of nuts.

it is all well and good talking about responsible gun owners, but there are thousands who are not.

that aside, more guns is not a good think.

the US needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

we have had gun control for years, gun crime is wa down, and at no point has our governement tried to round up people and execute them.

gun control is not evil, it is simple sense.

but lets face it you guys are against free healt care, so madness runs deep through your culture!
DavidTheDeer
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:17:29 AM

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Location: Pierre, United States
echopomp wrote:

i am loosing the will to fight on.

the US gun lobby is full of nuts.

it is all well and good talking about responsible gun owners, but there are thousands who are not.

that aside, more guns is not a good think.

the US needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

we have had gun control for years, gun crime is wa down, and at no point has our governement tried to round up people and execute them.

gun control is not evil, it is simple sense.

but lets face it you guys are against free healt care, so madness runs deep through your culture!


Even more amusing is that these discussions scare people into buying more guns because they're afraid they won't be able to later on.
echopomp
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:30:35 PM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 190

you find it amusement in the death of 20, 6 & 7 year olds.

you truely are a repellent person
principessa
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 1:35:32 PM

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foxjack wrote:


Even more amusing is that these discussions scare people into buying more guns because they're afraid they won't be able to later on.


Amusing? I can't imagine the mind that could perceive anything in these events as amusing. It does give me some insight into the mind of someone who may have guns but shouldn't, given how little you value human life.

lafayettemister
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:00:12 PM

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foxjack wrote:


Even more amusing is that these discussions scare people into buying more guns because they're afraid they won't be able to later on.


principessa wrote:


Amusing? I can't imagine the mind that could perceive anything in these events as amusing. It does give me some insight into the mind of someone who may have guns but shouldn't, given how little you value human life.


echopomp wrote:

you find it amusement in the death of 20, 6 & 7 year olds.

you truely are a repellent person


This is why we can't have meaningful dialogue on important issues. People are so ready to be offended and find offense where there is none. He didn't say he found the events to be amusing, he said it's these discussions that are amusing. I don't know foxjack and I didn't go back to check his stance on gun control, but I think it's safe to say that he found no amusement in anyone's death. No where did he say the deaths of 20 six and seven year old kids was amusing. Argue points of debate all you want, don't make anyone out to be amused at death. He didn't say that. Didn't imply it.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
echopomp
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:53:54 PM

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Joined: 4/16/2011
Posts: 190
what i am saying is that there is nothing remotely amusing about any of this.

nothing is funny about the event nor things that have happened since the event.

to find any of it amusing is repellent.

principessa, says very similar thing.

i would point out that foxjack also use the phrase 'even more amusing' clearly suggesting that he was already finding these matters amusing.

I stand by my original statment, he is repellent.
DavidTheDeer
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:48:26 PM

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Actually I meant to say "The ironic part is" I was carrying on with another IM at the same time, guess some messages got crossed, sorry for the miscommunication.

wolverine15
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:13:21 PM

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Posts: 1,152
Location: sardonic-ville, United States
Garza wrote:
abc and the others need to get their stories straight. They have very different accounts

Fox: The vehicle the suspect drove to the school was registered to his mother. At least three guns were found -- a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both pistols, inside the school, and a .223-caliber rifle in the back of a car, authorities said.

CNN: The bloodshed ended when Lanza's own life did. He was found dead in a classroom with two firearms, a Glock and Sig Sauer. Another gun, a .223 Bushmaster, was found nearby in a car.

Unless he had two identical rifles I don't see how you use a rifle that's in a car, maybe
police can explain the logistical nightmare.



For the record:
AR-15s are not the only weapons used by rampaging shooters. Semiautomatic handguns are also frequently employed. In Newtown, in addition to the Bushmaster M-4 carbine, two handguns were found at the scene, a 10-millimeter Glock and a 9-millimeter Sig Sauer, although the rifle is what Mr. Lanza used, pumping up to 11 bullets into each victim’s body, according to the medical examiner. All three guns belonged to his mother, officials said. - NY TIMES

He also shot in the glass in the front doors to get access.

Now for my take:
I have numerous friends in the military and on police forces, and not a one of them thinks that semi-automatic weapons should be available to the public. For those that say they use them for home defense I quote one of my military friends "they do a piss poor job (semi-autos), a shot gun is the only gun some one needs to protect their home and family".

Regardless, I have seen the effects of shootings on my community and all that comes to mind is "those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it". Some where along the line we have forgot that strong protect the weak, that we should not turn a blind eye to injustice, and that if we refuse to get involved (in some form - voting, speaking out, etc...) we bare some responsibility because doing nothing is a choice of action.

Some have made the inane statement guns don't kill people, people kill people. We as a society don't allow people that are unfit to drive to drive. We don't allow untrained people to fly planes or operate fork lifts for pity sake. You can't vote if your a felon or not 18. you cant buy a beer if your not 21. Hell you can't buy certain types of cough medicine in mass because someone might cook up a batch a meth. But we will allow anybody to buy a semi-automatic weapon if they pass a simple background check and wait. Sometimes laws must be passed to protect a society from members of itself and really what practical purpose does a semi-automatic weapon serve other than to harm another?





“If you find it hard to laugh at yourself, I would be happy to do it for you."

DavidTheDeer
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:29:32 PM

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wolverine15 wrote:

Some have made the inane statement guns don't kill people, people kill people. We as a society don't allow people that are unfit to drive to drive. We don't allow untrained people to fly planes or operate fork lifts for pity sake. You can't vote if your a felon or not 18. you cant buy a beer if your not 21. Hell you can't buy certain types of cough medicine in mass because someone might cook up a batch a meth. But we will allow anybody to buy a semi-automatic weapon if they pass a simple background check and wait. Sometimes laws must be passed to protect a society from members of itself and really what practical purpose does a semi-automatic weapon serve other than to harm another?

Age has never stopped kids from acquiring beer, they usually just ask their friends or whatever (even though it’s completely illegal to buy alcohol for a minor and it can result in loss of job/jail time or at the very least a fine). However, with guns people are usually smart enough not to give them to their friends, especially if they know they aren't fit to have such weapons.

As for semi auto guns, they serve the same purpose as alcohol, fun to use; it’s a change of pace and all of that they need different skill sets to fire. I don't see why people think the only point of guns is too killing others.

And semi auto shotguns can be useful for bird hunting, sometimes the bird shot bounces off the feathers if they're flying toward you, it’s helpful not have to break aim to reload it.

I don't know if you'd really want to defend your home with a shot gun though, they are messy, depending what round is in them they could easy pass though the intruder and depending on the thickness of your wall that too.
Guest
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:49:32 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 891,710
lafayettemister wrote:


This is why we can't have meaningful dialogue on important issues. People are so ready to be offended and find offense where there is none. He didn't say he found the events to be amusing, he said it's these discussions that are amusing. I don't know foxjack and I didn't go back to check his stance on gun control, but I think it's safe to say that he found no amusement in anyone's death. No where did he say the deaths of 20 six and seven year old kids was amusing. Argue points of debate all you want, don't make anyone out to be amused at death. He didn't say that. Didn't imply it.


Really, LM, that's the reason why we cannot have meaningful dialogue?

People are offended because they can imagine what would it feel when someone close to them would be killed in school and idiots on internet would have arguments as some people do in this and few other inspired by this situation, threads.
But if you think that there is none offense to be taken that doesn't mean that there is none at all. foxjack expressed himself inappropriately, in some other similar threads as well, it is not lonely case of his, and as I see it, he is not going to stop anytime soon explaining to us how guns are great and that guns dont kill and similar shit.
DavidTheDeer
Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:58:58 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 4/25/2010
Posts: 923
Location: Pierre, United States
She wrote:


Really, LM, that's the reason why we cannot have meaningful dialogue?

People are offended because they can imagine what would it feel when someone close to them would be killed in school and idiots on internet would have arguments as some people do in this and few other inspired by this situation, threads.
But if you think that there is none offense to be taken that doesn't mean that there is none at all. foxjack expressed himself inappropriately, in some other similar threads as well, it is not lonely case of his, and as I see it, he is not going to stop anytime soon explaining to us how guns are great and that guns dont kill and similar shit.

I've lost loved ones to drunk drivers; you going to get everyone to stop drinking so I don't have to worry about any alcohol related violence, or do you only care about getting rid of things that you don't enjoy? Or are those deaths acceptable to you?
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