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How about a gay section in Personal/Relationships Options · View
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:47:31 AM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
Currently we have threads for men and women, as well as one for BDSM lifestyles. My thought is that maybe its time for a bisexual/gay category.

I've been pretty open about my own bisexuality, and I know there are a few other guys here who share such desires. There are also a number of bi or gay women on the site who might also be willing to share some insights of the lifestyle in a dedicated thread. In general, it might at least make some interesting reading!

Ive seen a few threads appear withing the ask the guys or gals, but nothing dedicated for them specifically. How would the membership on the whole view such a category?

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
findingnichole
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:54:21 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/31/2013
Posts: 802
Location: United States
I think it's a good idea. It's only fair to include them with their own category.

You seem sweet, mind if I lick you to make sure?
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:56:05 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Milik_The_Red wrote:
Currently we have threads for men and women


....bisexuals and gays are men and women (or guys and gals) just like those of us that are straight... I'm confused as to why they need their own category with this in mind?

It isn't 'ask the straight guys' or 'ask the straight gals'....it's ask the guys and ask the gals.
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 4:17:22 AM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
LittleBambi wrote:


....bisexuals and gays are men and women (or guys and gals) just like those of us that are straight... I'm confused as to why they need their own category with this in mind?

It isn't 'ask the straight guys' or 'ask the straight gals'....it's ask the guys and ask the gals.


I rather expected that response. Sadly, many posters consider those threads to be inherently heterosexual. They are at the very least, implied to be by my measure. To be a bit more forceful about it, I could honestly say that your point is similar to those in the USA the ask why a minority needs holiday or scholarship or whatever for them when 'clearly' those that are in general use are for 'everyone' it's easy to say that when you are on the inside, looking out. Things are a bit more opaque when you are standing on the other side of the glass wall.

Furthermore, if you are correct, why do we need a BSDM lifestyle. Are they not men and women as well?

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 4:53:15 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
I see both sides of this.... but if I may... there is a BSDM section probably because that is a particular fetish and even lifestyle that is not dependent on sexual orientation.. and it is quite a bit out of the norm. There are homosexuals and bisexuals who participate in that as well, it is not simply a heterosexual "thing".

We see plenty of homosexual or bisexual based questions in the 'ask the guys/gals' sections. And from what I understand, homosexuals pretty much do the same things heterosexuals to, but their chosen partners are just different (or should I say, the same? lol). It is not a specific fetish or general lifestyle difference, it is an orientation distinction.

I have no problem with homosexuality or bisexuality. What does tend to bother me a bit though, is when I always here "we are just like everyone else and want to be treated the same" and then out the other side of the mouth we hear "give me a special title, special day, special t-shirts, special bumper stickers, special treatment, recognize and acknowledge my being different, etc." Hey, either we are all the same, or we are not. Either we want to be treated the same, or we don't. Now please, I will not get into a "gay rights" debate or even discussion.... that is NOT what I am talking about. ;)

So I guess I don't care one way or the other if there was a special section on the forums for homosexuals or bisexuals.... I just don't see the "need" for it.

Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 5:15:17 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Milik_The_Red wrote:


I rather expected that response. Sadly, many posters consider those threads to be inherently heterosexual. They are at the very least, implied to be by my measure. To be a bit more forceful about it, I could honestly say that your point is similar to those in the USA the ask why a minority needs holiday or scholarship or whatever for them when 'clearly' those that are in general use are for 'everyone' it's easy to say that when you are on the inside, looking out. Things are a bit more opaque when you are standing on the other side of the glass wall.

Furthermore, if you are correct, why do we need a BSDM lifestyle. Are they not men and women as well?


It doesn't compare with BDSM*...that's (often extreme) fetish stuff (please note: no offence meant to anyone in the lifestyle here, I'm merely generalising). You're talking about sexuality, not a fetish/fetishes.

It seems daft to separate people from ask the guys/gals because of their sexuality. I would have thought that, in the interest of equality, it is best that everybody is, since we're all part of the same (human) race regardless of sexuality, lumped in together.

We're the same... why make a divide??
blazestcyr
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 6:05:49 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/19/2011
Posts: 737
Location: where bugs die
i got a HUGE problem with you assuming we are phobic about sexuality just because we might NOT see the reason ..for this...

sex is sex whether you do it with a girl or a guy

sex is sex...

you will have the same issues as straight as with GLBT....THE act itself is sex...lust..love... domination..same no matter whom you do it with

please please dont EQUATE a thread on here with MLK holiday..that is so bad i am shaking with outrage on that

if you feel you are being discriminated here on lush well that is another story...and for a minute.. i considered it ..and thought hmm ..maybe... until you automatically

went that anyone that said no was a RACIST?? or discrimanatory towards gay people??really????

but to me ...I HAVE NEVER EVER met more open minded people in my life..than HERE ON LUSH!

they answer ALL questions with hearts and minds wide open

as little bambi said so well we are ALL the same...why make a divide

if you want an answer to a sexual issues it makes NO difference what SEX your partner is

and as i have said it before having a lesbian sister ...i know i am very much NOT phobic about issues concerning same sex AT ALL!

wow...wow....
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 6:34:53 AM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
blazestcyr wrote:
i got a HUGE problem with you assuming we are phobic about sexuality just because we might NOT see the reason ..for this...

sex is sex whether you do it with a girl or a guy

sex is sex...

you will have the same issues as straight as with GLBT....THE act itself is sex...lust..love... domination..same no matter whom you do it with

please please dont EQUATE a thread on here with MLK holiday..that is so bad i am shaking with outrage on that

if you feel you are being discriminated here on lush well that is another story...and for a minute.. i considered it ..and thought hmm ..maybe... until you automatically

went that anyone that said no was a RACIST?? or discrimanatory towards gay people??really????

but to me ...I HAVE NEVER EVER met more open minded people in my life..than HERE ON LUSH!

they answer ALL questions with hearts and minds wide open

as little bambi said so well we are ALL the same...why make a divide

if you want an answer to a sexual issues it makes NO difference what SEX your partner is

and as i have said it before having a lesbian sister ...i know i am very much NOT phobic about issues concerning same sex AT ALL!

wow...wow....


Whoa, easy there. I certainly did not intend to start a brush fire here, and there is no reason this can't be discussed rationally. However, if you are going to bring up discrimination, I will ask how you can attempt to justify the idea that, in the world at large there is not homophobia and discrimination against gays and lesbians?

I see that you use my examples of holidays and scholarships (both of which exist outside of lush) that are offered to equate that I'm accusing anyone here of the same? Frankly, I'm shocked that a simple and reasonable request has illicited such a venomous response.

In my view, her original response chery picked my points and ignored the fact that another alternative lifestyle already has such a category. The response that that one is extreme to me is irrelevant. Having lived in both the straight and gay worlds, I can tell you that they are different, especially among gay men.

Now, if somehow you are offended by my belief that the world in general does not offer equality to the gay community I'm not sure what to tell you. It doesn't. I will also say that your attempt to twist that belief into an accusation that I'm challenging the the general membership here, then you clearly don't know me or the things I stand for.

I am very saddened by these responses. I never would have believed I would have gotten raked over the coals for suggesting something that would cost nothing, hurt no one and might have provided some enlightenment. Clearly I have grossly misjudged the situation.

Finally, you accuse me of saying anyone who said no was a racist? Where? Because I pointed out that the majority often thinks things are equal when the minority can see that it often is not? The irony is just incredible.

I was going to leave it at that but now I'm pissed. You think that those boards are open to everyone but I can tell you that it doesn't always work that way. There have been many threads, including one about blow jobs I read tonight, that I hesitate to answer because the op is clearly talking to the ladies and a response from a gay man feels out of place. You of course don't see it, and I doubt it ever occurred to you, but that was the very reason I suggested this in the first place!

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:08:01 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Ok, once again I see BOTH sides, and frankly it was (in my eyes) presented, and then "justified" in a way that presented the idea that if you didn't AGREE, you were in fact being just like every other "discriminating" thing out there. It was presented in a way that if you didn't agree, you were somehow not as open minded or tolerant as others. That if you didn't agree you were somehow trying to PREVENT someone from doing something or having their own "special group"... whether they need one or not.

This was IMO a loaded question, by virtue of the responses to non-agreement, as well as how it was defended. Being open minded and respecting other views is not a one way street.

There is NO reason why a gay person can't answer a question about blowjobs that was asked in the "ask the gals" section. Heck, I have seen those answered by gays and bisexual folks on a regular basis.... no matter WHAT section the question or topic was asked in. So to think, or even claim that the forums are not open to everyone is far from being accurate. And if a gay or bisexual person feels out of place, it MUST be because of THEMSELVES and not anything anyone else has done, because I have seen every point of view, and sexual bend, posted about VERY openly and met with positive responses.

But I guess in short, if someone does not want to actually SEE what others think about any given issue, idea, or topic... don't ASK in the first place. And if you DO, please respect that others may not agree with you on all things. And myself, as well as others, just think that sexual preference isn't enough to create a special section for. Less so when it is quite obvious that they already participate in all other forum sections equally... and without hesitation (for the most part it would seem). This is not about exclusion at all, but INCLUSION. If someone who is gay feels uncomfortable with their sexuality, or in participating in general discussions, that is on THEM, not on the group that has openly welcomed and accepted them... in full INCLUSION.
overmykneenow
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:16:40 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 6/8/2010
Posts: 1,405
Location: United Kingdom
Milik_The_Red wrote:


I rather expected that response. Sadly, many posters consider those threads to be inherently heterosexual. They are at the very least, implied to be by my measure. To be a bit more forceful about it, I could honestly say that your point is similar to those in the USA the ask why a minority needs holiday or scholarship or whatever for them when 'clearly' those that are in general use are for 'everyone' it's easy to say that when you are on the inside, looking out. Things are a bit more opaque when you are standing on the other side of the glass wall.

Furthermore, if you are correct, why do we need a BSDM lifestyle. Are they not men and women as well?


Some posters maybe but nowhere near all. Some of the things on there are of course directed at heterosexual relationships but rarely is any question set that it tacitly excludes input from other orientations. By the same measure there are questions specifically directed at same-sex situations.

Given how precious some people get if a guy posts a reply in Ask the Gals what will happen if you're straight and you want to join in the conversation? The BDSM section doesn't look to ghettoise those who are interested in the subject - it allows for questions to be asked of a subject that can seem very esoteric. It has led to feelings of segregation in the past; comments like "you're not in the lifestyle, you wouldn't understand" have been made on there - thankfully these incidents appear to be getting rarer as they are soon stepped upon.

If the numbers are to be believed, straight females are in the minority here - if you ask a question to women here, more than half the responses will come from bisexuals or lesbians.

For what it's worth, thanks for bringing the subject up for discussion.

Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:36:16 AM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
John, first thank you for giving a reasoned response.

In answer, I am surprised that no effort has been made to consider the value that such a board would have. It seems logical to me that a more specific board would induce more specific content. I certainly don't see how it could be offensive, or cause cost or pain to any others?

The center of the statement against seem to be that I and others should feel perfectly okay in assuming that a straight man who is asking women about their sexual practices would welcome my response? I've been here for over three years and I can say that it doesn't always work that way. I'm very sorry if you don't see it, but just because you don't doesn't mean it isn't there.

Seriously, rather than lambasting me over my comfort zone and saying its my problem, wouldn't it be more constructive to attempt to find out more? Are you that sure as a straight man you can put yourself in my shoes?

I pointed out the fact that minorities are often given such 'benefits' not to insult, but to show a precedent. Precedents like this are commonly used as counter arguments to show the one requesting is not asking for something out of hand or historically unfair.

You've prefaced your statements with how open minded you are but you base your arguments on 'why should we get special treatment' Is it possible that this is more about sharing in a directed environment than it is about getting something special?

As I said earlier, I'm astonished that this has drawn such fire. The level of resistance is much stronger then seems warrented and despite what may be thought, I'm not a confrontational person. This idea is clearly unwelcome, so I'll pursue it no farther.

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:48:19 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Thank you. And with all due respect, maybe folks HAVE given effort to consider the value, but don't believe that it is what you think it is? This type of discussion takes place on all types of forums, and sometimes what one person or a minority of people think is so "value" to the forum as a whole is not what the majority thinks it is. But that same way of thinking could be applied to any and all other sub categories or interests within a general group.... so why not simply make all sorts of sub-sections? Well, in truth, it can become counter productive to the group as a whole since discussions that all would normally see are now segmented and secluded from the rest. That, in point of fact, harms the forum in general.

Also, I don't think anyone, to include myself, has lambasted you. Because you may not like the frankness of the response (and I do try to use as much tact as I can without losing honesty) does not mean you were lambasted. And yes, as a bi-curious man I can put myself in anyone shoes when I try to think logically about things. But again, everyone in every type of group does not agree on ALL issues or things. So for me that is simply moot.

Further more, you don't SHARE by exclusion. You don't SHARE by getting something special.

As for how much fire this has gotten.... once again, it is not because of the question asked or even the topic. It is about it appearing that only your views have merit or were given any real consideration. That is a faulty argument and statement at best. Many times people of equal caring, intelligence, education, and tolerance can take the same information and/or idea, and come to different conclusions. And where we each draw the lines on any given issue is often quite different. What I find distasteful however, is when met with a difference in view or opinion, one party falls back on the idea that the other is somehow being mean to them, intolerant, or didn't truly give it enough thought... because SURELY if they did, they would OF COURSE agree with me. ;)
Rembacher
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:35:28 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/16/2008
Posts: 1,107
http://www.lushstories.com/forum/yaf_postst21205_Rimming-yes-or-no.aspx

I'll admit, there seems to be more of these open questions on the ask the gals thread than the guys, but this seems to be a perfect example of how the current section can apply to homosexual, bisexual, and heterosexual people. Though for some reason, you chose to answer the question with a hetero-specific response. The original poster of this question did an excellent job of leaving gender out of the question. So why would they have to ask it in the straight guys section, and the gay guys section? And which section would you want the bi guys to answer in? Or do they need their own thread too? To me, creating a section for homosexual people is going to lead to more segregstion, which doesn't help tolerance.

But I still can't understand why you would specifically mentiion women iin your answer about rimming. Maybe that's something you only enjoy giving and receiving with women. But more likely to me, it looks like you assume a hetero bias even where the OP made certain to avoid one.
clum
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 9:15:56 AM

Rank: Clumeleon
Moderator

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Posts: 5,842
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Milik, could you give some examples of the types of threads you would like to see in such a forum? I don't think it's a bad idea but, evidently, you're going to have to make one hell of a case for it.

I think a place for homosexual-specific topics could be quite useful and widely used. I don't think it's fair to say it's a way of segregating people—there wouldn't be restrictions on who can visit what forums depending on their sexuality. It's not about the people, it's about the content. It's quite likely that there are things that homosexuals would like to discuss but which many heterosexuals would have no interest in.

The 'Ask The...' forums are some of the most popular and things can get lost in the midst. Having a go-to place for the kinds of topics you're looking for, i.e., homosexual-specific topics, could be very helpful for a number of members.

Also, targeting a forum at a group of people with potentially similar experiences in life could encourage members to ask questions and discuss topics they might have felt uncomfortable airing to a much broader audience.

Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:27:43 AM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
Rembacher, to answer your question. I referenced women for two reasons. The first. Is that I'm bisexual and women are as important to me as men. The second is that I feel more accepted when answering from a straight point do view. There have been at least a couple of times that my referring to homosexuality on a thread has led to several guys feeling the need to state their 'straightness' before adding to the conversation, and that kind of thing is very uncomfortable to me.

Clum, to me it would be a place where the assumption was that the answers would be from a homosexual point of view. Others would be welcome, but someone like me wouldn't have to qualify my answers each time I posted, and perhaps specific question about our desires and experiences would develope.

As far as having to make a hell of a case for it, that is apparently so, though why it would be still eludes me. I would have thought that the number of gay and lesbian members, the interest in such judged by the number of gay male stories and the number of such posts in other threads would have indicated a desire and acceptance for such a category. To be honest, the resistance to it caught me by surprise.

Truthfully, I really didn't think I would have to prove a need. I really thought it would just have been something that nobody felt a need to deny.

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 12:02:11 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Milik_The_Red wrote:
To be honest, the resistance to it caught me by surprise.

Truthfully, I really didn't think I would have to prove a need. I really thought it would just have been something that nobody felt a need to deny.

There you go AGAIN. LOL

Really? You honestly don't think you would have to prove that a new section was needed? It just goes as a 'given' because there are homosexuals and bisexuals here that they NEED their own section? It is that type of thinking that really gets to folks.

You either wanted to ask a question and enter a discussion about it, and accept ALL points of view, or you wanted unanimous agreement.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 12:08:07 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,575
Location: Alabama, United States
I find that the Ask the Guys/Gals sections are enough to handle straight and gay/lesbian questions/comments. Of the dozens of "do you like blowjobs" question, the answer can just as easily come from a gay man as a straight one. Also, I think comparing the BDSM section to a Gay section is an apples to oranges debate. Gay people can engage in BDSM too.

There are plenty questions that are Gay specific questions in the forums, no reason more can't be added. Within the already existing sections.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 12:33:03 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
JohnC wrote:

There you go AGAIN. LOL

Really? You honestly don't think you would have to prove that a new section was needed? It just goes as a 'given' because there are homosexuals and bisexuals here that they NEED their own section? It is that type of thinking that really gets to folks.

You either wanted to ask a question and enter a discussion about it, and accept ALL points of view, or you wanted unanimous agreement.


And there YOU go again. Reacting in an aggressive way to a simple statement! The forum i suggested would be for interest and entertainment and the more topics presented, the more information that would be shared. It isn't a zero sum gain that would cause the existing threads to wilt.

Honestly, why should you care if it was started? You would not be forced to read it and it wouldn't displace one that already exists. Why the ongoing hostility? You seem stuck on the fact that I, in your words 'need something special' Why would this bother you, even if it were true?

Why should my belief that the gay community has a need for a discussion board bother anyone? You say that really sets folks off. I find it odd that something a innocuous as a forum section could set you off so much. I showed that precedent for allowances like this have been made in the past. It was a fair and relevant point, and then that got assumed to be an indictment of racism? Then you turn around and say I'm not willing to hear other points of view?

I don't want or demand unanimous agreement, I just wanted to have a discussion of ideas. What Im getting is knee jerk reactionaries complaining that oh, that group should just shut up and blend. Frankly that smacks of right wing thinking.

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 12:53:05 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Milik_The_Red wrote:


And there YOU go again. Reacting in an aggressive way to a simple statement! The forum i suggested would be for interest and entertainment and the more topics presented, the more information that would be shared. It isn't a zero sum gain that would cause the existing threads to wilt.

I was not aggressive. I even laughed. LOL And how would there be MORE information shared? Simply sliding it into another section does not make more. It makes it segregated.

Quote:
Honestly, why should you care if it was started? You would not be forced to read it and it wouldn't displace one that already exists. Why the ongoing hostility? You seem stuck on the fact that I, in your words 'need something special' Why would this bother you, even if it were true?

Again, there is no hostility. I only pointed out how it looked and you keep acting like those who disagree with you are somehow preventing people from posting on the forms or something. That could not be farther from the truth. And if you WANT something special, but it does not affect the forum, fine. But you are asking for a new section to be put up. Do we NEED one? That can be debated, and has been. But each valid point brought up is met with the attitude that you are somehow being victimized. And you are not. If I thought the forum truly NEEDED a special section for ANY topic, I would openly give my support for it. But in this case I don't think it does.

Quote:
Why should my belief that the gay community has a need for a discussion board bother anyone? You say that really sets folks off. I find it odd that something a innocuous as a forum section could set you off so much. I showed that precedent for allowances like this have been made in the past. It was a fair and relevant point, and then that got assumed to be an indictment of racism? Then you turn around and say I'm not willing to hear other points of view?

It didn't really. I think your aversion to others saying they didn't think it does is what might rub folks wrong. At least it did me. And sorry, the term "gay community" rubs me wrong too. It is more self segregation while at the same time complaining that others somehow separate "you". You are a part of the community, you just have a different sexual preference than others. That is it.

Quote:
I don't want or demand unanimous agreement, I just wanted to have a discussion of ideas. What Im getting is knee jerk reactionaries complaining that oh, that group should just shut up and blend. Frankly that smacks of right wing thinking.

WRONG! LOL That could not be farther from the truth. It is more "victim mentality" that rubs even gays that I know the wrong way.

You see, I am not really upset, nor am I hostile. I am contributing to the discussion and pointing out that we CAN have differing views on the matter and one side not be bad or somehow repressive. It is called being mature, we don't always get what we want, and sometimes there is just no real justification for changes. But it seems in this thread, you think having a gay/bi section is a "given" and it really should not need justifying or proving a need for it. You come off as if anyone who thinks otherwise is somehow not getting it, or has not thought it through. Well, I am sure everyone who has posted up so far HAS thought it through. In fact my self and others have posted WHY we don't think it is needed.

But you can't seem to understand that either. We don't oppose it out of some form of bigotry or animosity. We just don't think there is truly a NEED for it beyond a desire to have one. I personally think it would pull participation from the main sections and they would be LOST to the majority of the members. But as it is now, gay/bi members post openly and freely in the already used sections, adding to the discussion and making the forums a richer place.

You have failed thus far, to show how a new section could provide MORE benefit to the community (not just your desire, but the community), or that things that would be posted there can't really be posted in the current forum sections. I see gay/bi/les posts all the time in the other sections. And in fact they flow with heterosexual ones as well. The general membership does not appear to have the issues you yourself seem to have concerning those posts. I just don't get it.

Again, the staff is free to do what they want on this matter. But you asked the question and asked for input from the membership. So to then act like any opposition to your idea is somehow anti-gay or trying to stop you from doing something (that frankly you already CAN do), because YOU want a special section..... that is what I have an issue with. And that goes to the tone you set from the start in response to any disagreement. Knee jerk, right wing, and other remarks. Again, I am not being hostile in any way. I am just being honest and civil with you... but saying something that you don't want to hear. There is a difference. toast

ADDED: I have to also present again that I have seen other forums segment things too much and it has always caused participation to DROP, not increase. There is a balance to be had in forum sections and compartmentalizing. You find the flow and maintain it. Adding more rooms can often stop the flow of discussions and participation. You have to weigh if a NEW section is TRULY needed because current sections don't already adequately handle the types of discussions the new section would possibly have. And in this case, I don't think it would be an improvement or is in fact, needed. Replace "gay/bi/les" with anything else and THAT is what the issue is. It is not about denying any group any REAL abilities or "things", it is whether those things would be truly BETTER for the COMMUNITY and FORUM, vs just placating a desire and want from a certain group/member. This is not an emotional issue. Nor is it a right wing vs left wing thing. Nor is it a knee jerk response, or one that was not really thought out... quite the contrary.
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:29:00 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
Lol, well I tip my hat to you John. You have an amazing ability to tip an argument on its side. I started with a innocent attempt to add something I felt would be of value, and you managed to completely derail the thread.

Yes, I admit that I felt it needed because I felt disenfranchised and I assumed that others in my situation felt the same. I also felt that lush of all places would understand this. I was wrong. If you and the other posters are a true sampling, and it seems you are, then I have misjudged this badly.

You say you are not reacting with hostility, but it certainly felt that way to me. The laugh and the famous Ronald Reagan quote ending in caps certainly felt like derision, but you say it wasn't so fine, I accept that.

You object to the term gay community. Well that's what it's called. Sorry, but even if I chose not to use it, you will still have to hear it from time to time.

So congatulations, you win. The thread will likely never get seen. Your lock on the status quo is safe from me. I apologize for daring to think I had something constructive to offer.

This has been an eye opening experience. I can't say I'm happy, but perhaps I shouldn't be as surprised as I am

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:44:32 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
Milik_The_Red wrote:
Lol, well I tip my hat to you John. You have an amazing ability to tip an argument on its side. I started with a innocent attempt to add something I felt would be of value, and you managed to completely derail the thread.

Thank you? LOL

But how was it derailed? Because you didn't get the response you wanted? Well you left it open, and got honest and genuine responses to the question you presented. That is not derailed. That is, actually, getting what you stated you wanted. Maybe you didn't actually present your true desires accurately? I don't know.

Quote:
Yes, I admit that I felt it needed because I felt disenfranchised and I assumed that others in my situation felt the same. I also felt that lush of all places would understand this. I was wrong. If you and the other posters are a true sampling, and it seems you are, then I have misjudged this badly.

Wow. Talk about a slap in the face. If the membership does not agree with you on this issue we don't "understand"? I can assure you that I for one do understand. I simply don't agree with you. There is a huge difference between the two and not agreeing does not by default denote not understanding.

In fact, I would present that because some of us want everyone to be a united community and use the areas which already service the types of questions and discussions wanted, WE are the more inclusive, as opposed to the opposite. No one is saying to sit down and shut up, we are saying, stand up and join in the community as a whole (as they have been doing)! We WELCOME you and enjoy your posts and addition to the community as a whole. But that is quite the opposite of what you are now making it appear by your comment above.

Quote:
You say you are not reacting with hostility, but it certainly felt that way to me. The laugh and the famous Ronald Reagan quote ending in caps certainly felt like derision, but you say it wasn't so fine, I accept that.

Where did I quote Ronald Reagan? LOL I just looked and I didn't see where I quoted anyone outside this thread. Did I miss something?

Quote:
You object to the term gay community. Well that's what it's called. Sorry, but even if I chose not to use it, you will still have to hear it from time to time.

No problem, just pointing out some of the rubs. And until the "gay community" stops segregating ITSELF, many of the issues homosexuals face (serf imposed) will not go away. Again, this makes ME more inclusive and accepting than many gays are... isn't that ironic? ;)

Quote:
So congatulations, you win. The thread will likely never get seen. Your lock on the status quo is safe from me. I apologize for daring to think I had something constructive to offer.

This has been an eye opening experience. I can't say I'm happy, but perhaps I shouldn't be as surprised as I am

Again, you opened the discussion and simply didn't like the result. That is not because of a bigoted "status quo" membership bent on keeping you down. There were real and valid reasons posted by members but you prefer to instead take the victim's rout when no victims exist. No worries. But it is a bit disappointing.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:48:04 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,575
Location: Alabama, United States
Milik_The_Red wrote:
Lol, well I tip my hat to you John. You have an amazing ability to tip an argument on its side. I started with a innocent attempt to add something I felt would be of value, and you managed to completely derail the thread.

Yes, I admit that I felt it needed because I felt disenfranchised and I assumed that others in my situation felt the same. I also felt that lush of all places would understand this. I was wrong. If you and the other posters are a true sampling, and it seems you are, then I have misjudged this badly.

You say you are not reacting with hostility, but it certainly felt that way to me. The laugh and the famous Ronald Reagan quote ending in caps certainly felt like derision, but you say it wasn't so fine, I accept that.

You object to the term gay community. Well that's what it's called. Sorry, but even if I chose not to use it, you will still have to hear it from time to time.

So congatulations, you win. The thread will likely never get seen. Your lock on the status quo is safe from me. I apologize for daring to think I had something constructive to offer.

This has been an eye opening experience. I can't say I'm happy, but perhaps I shouldn't be as surprised as I am


Milik, I've seen your postings in the forum for some time now. You're always well informed and fair. I can't speak for everyone in this thread, so i'll speak for me. I'm not totally opposed to the idea nor do I have the authority to decide for or against it. I just think it would be unnecessary.

Does posting gay/bisexual stuff in the existing forums make you uncomfortable? Do you find you don't get enough replies? And if so, is it because maybe the gay/bisexual men on Lush aren't comfortable in the existing sections? That isn't sarcasm, but genuine questions?

I find Lush to be very accepting of all things sexual (excluding rape, animals, and children) so you should be able to discuss anything as freely in existing forum sections as you would in a Gay/Lesbian/Bisexually designated thread. Hence my feelings of it be unnecessary. If it happens it won't change my Lushing experience nor will it of anyone else's. So again, I'm not "opposed" to it like some sort of political platform.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:58:50 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
lafayettemister wrote:


Milik, I've seen your postings in the forum for some time now. You're always well informed and fair. I can't speak for everyone in this thread, so i'll speak for me. I'm not totally opposed to the idea nor do I have the authority to decide for or against it. I just think it would be unnecessary.

Does posting gay/bisexual stuff in the existing forums make you uncomfortable? Do you find you don't get enough replies? And if so, is it because maybe the gay/bisexual men on Lush aren't comfortable in the existing sections? That isn't sarcasm, but genuine questions?

I find Lush to be very accepting of all things sexual (excluding rape, animals, and children) so you should be able to discuss anything as freely in existing forum sections as you would in a Gay/Lesbian/Bisexually designated thread. Hence my feelings of it be unnecessary. If it happens it won't change my Lushing experience nor will it of anyone else's. So again, I'm not "opposed" to it like some sort of political platform.


This is quite right. It has been my experience that many men will either ignore any mention of homosexuality or qualify their own straightness before responding. This has made me feel uncomfortable and hesitant to post on that part of my nature. As I stated, I'm not surprised that no one but a gay man has noticed it. Why should they? I also didn't anticipate that there would be such strong objection to it. Well, I was certainly wrong on that count.

As you've seen me around, and I've been posting for several years, you know I don't start fires to watch them burn. I brought this up only because I felt it worthy, and because I felt lush would get it if any place would. Finding out how wrong I was has shaken me quite severaly. Maybe that is my own emotional baggage. God knows I have enough, and he equally knows I certainly don't need any more.

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:11:44 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,575
Location: Alabama, United States
Milik_The_Red wrote:


This is quite right. It has been my experience that many men will either ignore any mention of homosexuality or qualify their own straightness before responding. This has made me feel uncomfortable and hesitant to post on that part of my nature. As I stated, I'm not surprised that no one but a gay man has noticed it. Why should they? I also didn't anticipate that there would be such strong objection to it. Well, I was certainly wrong on that count.

As you've seen me around, and I've been posting for several years, you know I don't start fires to watch them burn. I brought this up only because I felt it worthy, and because I felt lush would get it if any place would. Finding out how wrong I was has shaken me quite severaly. Maybe that is my own emotional baggage. God knows I have enough, and he equally knows I certainly don't need any more.


A straight man may ignore homosexual postings because he's just not into it and not because he's homophobic. I don't post in the BDSM threads because it's just not really my thing. There are several other topics and sections I don't post in for the same reason. I'm not opposed to those topics, I just don't have anything of substance to add to the discussion.

You should never feel hesitant to post anything, Milik. You're well regarded here and if someone called you out simply because you're bisexual, many people would come to your defense. Including myself. But I doubt anyone here on Lush would object to any posting that's coming from a gay/bisexual POV. Not here. I don't think there's strong opposition, it was even mentioned above by someone thanking you for bringing it up for discussion.

I've seen you around, you're a level headed dude and I respect your opinions. It is a worthy idea, but not everyone will agree that it's needed. And they're entitled to think so. While at the same time, not being homophobic about the possibility. We all have baggage, mine is enough to fill a stadium. Don't be shaken, your idea may happen. There are lots of other people, forum frequenters, that may agree with you. Nic may think it's a wonderful idea. You may have lots of others who chime in support. People disagree sometimes, I do on this. It isn't an indictment of you as a person.

Sorry for prattling on for so long.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Guest
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:19:08 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,672
lafayettemister wrote:


A straight man may ignore homosexual postings because he's just not into it and not because he's homophobic. I don't post in the BDSM threads because it's just not really my thing. There are several other topics and sections I don't post in for the same reason. I'm not opposed to those topics, I just don't have anything of substance to add to the discussion.

You should never feel hesitant to post anything, Milik. You're well regarded here and if someone called you out simply because you're bisexual, many people would come to your defense. Including myself. But I doubt anyone here on Lush would object to any posting that's coming from a gay/bisexual POV. Not here. I don't think there's strong opposition, it was even mentioned above by someone thanking you for bringing it up for discussion.

I've seen you around, you're a level headed dude and I respect your opinions. It is a worthy idea, but not everyone will agree that it's needed. And they're entitled to think so. While at the same time, not being homophobic about the possibility. We all have baggage, mine is enough to fill a stadium. Don't be shaken, your idea may happen. There are lots of other people, forum frequenters, that may agree with you. Nic may think it's a wonderful idea. You may have lots of others who chime in support. People disagree sometimes, I do on this. It isn't an indictment of you as a person.

Sorry for prattling on for so long.

Agreed!
Milik_the_Red
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:33:18 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 5,827
Location: The Citadel of my mind , United States
lafayettemister wrote:


A straight man may ignore homosexual postings because he's just not into it and not because he's homophobic. I don't post in the BDSM threads because it's just not really my thing. There are several other topics and sections I don't post in for the same reason. I'm not opposed to those topics, I just don't have anything of substance to add to the discussion.

You should never feel hesitant to post anything, Milik. You're well regarded here and if someone called you out simply because you're bisexual, many people would come to your defense. Including myself. But I doubt anyone here on Lush would object to any posting that's coming from a gay/bisexual POV. Not here. I don't think there's strong opposition, it was even mentioned above by someone thanking you for bringing it up for discussion.

I've seen you around, you're a level headed dude and I respect your opinions. It is a worthy idea, but not everyone will agree that it's needed. And they're entitled to think so. While at the same time, not being homophobic about the possibility. We all have baggage, mine is enough to fill a stadium. Don't be shaken, your idea may happen. There are lots of other people, forum frequenters, that may agree with you. Nic may think it's a wonderful idea. You may have lots of others who chime in support. People disagree sometimes, I do on this. It isn't an indictment of you as a person.

Sorry for prattling on for so long.


Thank you. Your explanation was clear and free of hyperboli.

Surely silence can sometimes be the most eloquent of replies
- Unknown
Mazza
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:54:22 PM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,351
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
In answer to the original post, Milik, I personally don't see the benefit of having a specifically gay/bi area. I agree with LM, that from what I've seen most topics are covered in the general forums anyway... Surely rather than split the community into groups (and I don't mean gals/guys - because we all post on those regardless of sex anyway) it would be better to have more threads to accommodate everyone's needs?

I mean, I personally would be unlikely to visit that section (not being gay) and in fact, I would feel that I "couldn't" visit that section - I don't generally see posts in the BDSM area for the same reason, unless I click on a friend's post in my newsfeed, but I am extremely unlikely to post in BDSM as I know nothing about it and have no experience...

As for the gay community, well, I do have some experience there, I worked in a gay pubs and nightclub for some years and still have many gay and bi friends (in both the real and virtual worlds). Most of my friends (from what I've seen and heard) would rather feel accepted, that being gay was not considered to be anything other than normal and it would that mean that we might lose lots of fantastic input on the general forums too, I think...

Why not just have more gay/bi threads in the regular forums, then everyone can read and post or not if they choose to - that way we all at least get to see the posts, get the benefit of everyone's collective experience and continue to learn and grow the way we always do here on Lush? I guess what I am trying to say and not doing it very well is that the regular forums would be crap without all of the people who frequent them just now... Why split us into groups?



Nothing to see here...
CurlyGirly
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:05:30 PM

Rank: CurlyFries

Joined: 10/5/2012
Posts: 1,834
Location: United States
Mazza wrote:
In answer to the original post, Milik, I personally don't see the benefit of having a specifically gay/bi area. I agree with LM, that from what I've seen most topics are covered in the general forums anyway... Surely rather than split the community into groups (and I don't mean gals/guys - because we all post on those regardless of sex anyway) it would be better to have more threads to accommodate everyone's needs?

I mean, I personally would be unlikely to visit that section (not being gay) and in fact, I would feel that I "couldn't" visit that section - I don't generally see posts in the BDSM area for the same reason, unless I click on a friend's post in my newsfeed, but I am extremely unlikely to post in BDSM as I know nothing about it and have no experience...

As for the gay community, well, I do have some experience there, I worked in a gay pubs and nightclub for some years and still have many gay and bi friends (in both the real and virtual worlds). Most of my friends (from what I've seen and heard) would rather feel accepted, that being gay was not considered to be anything other than normal and it would that mean that we might lose lots of fantastic input on the general forums too, I think...

Why not just have more gay/bi threads in the regular forums, then everyone can read and post or not if they choose to - that way we all at least get to see the posts, get the benefit of everyone's collective experience and continue to learn and grow the way we always do here on Lush? I guess what I am trying to say and not doing it very well is that the regular forums would be crap without all of the people who frequent them just now... Why split us into groups?



This...I agree with (I think I just channeled Yoda).

I really would hate to see the forums broken down into a bunch of homogeneous little groups. That doesn't sound fun to me. I love the diversity and chaos of everyone posting anywhere, and I think we all learn more that way.

I definitely see where you're coming from, Milik, but I would really miss the mishmash of it all. I enjoy keeping the lines a little blurry.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:07:47 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,575
Location: Alabama, United States
CurlyGirly wrote:


This...I agree with (I think I just channeled Yoda).

I really would hate to see the forums broken down into a bunch of homogeneous little groups. That doesn't sound fun to me. I love the diversity and chaos of everyone posting anywhere, and I think we all learn more that way.

I definitely see where you're coming from, Milik, but I would really miss the mishmash of it all. I enjoy keeping the lines a little blurry.


I think that's just from all the booze. Give me your keys, CG!





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Mazza
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:10:45 PM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,351
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
CurlyGirly wrote:


This...I agree with (I think I just channeled Yoda).

I really would hate to see the forums broken down into a bunch of homogeneous little groups. That doesn't sound fun to me. I love the diversity and chaos of everyone posting anywhere, and I think we all learn more that way.

I definitely see where you're coming from, Milik, but I would really miss the mishmash of it all. I enjoy keeping the lines a little blurry.


Great, CG says in a couple of lines, what it took me ages to say... AND she used homogeneous

From what I've seen, posts relating specifically to gay and or bi issues, do seem to be mostly left alone? Which affords them relative privacy?

Nothing to see here...
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