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Nurses refuses to give CPR to dying woman b/c it's against facility policy Options · View
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:14:20 PM

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Buz wrote:
I am sure the courts will have to sort this out. No doubt attorneys have been contacted.

It does look like the nurse would've felt it was her moral obligation and duty as a medical professional to try cpr to save the woman's life. If it is corporate policy to not attempt the cpr and the medical examiner determines that the lady could've been saved, well the I'd hate to own stock in that company because their ass will be chewed up and spit out in a lawsuit.


That right there is one of the reasons policies like that are in place. People are so quick to file lawsuits these days, facilities/companies put as many policies in place to cover themselves as they can.
Sweet_N_Naughty
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:16:46 PM

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No one will be charge crime? The facility? that is protocol

if the Nurse give the CPR now and old lady die what happen???
the old lady family will take the nurses to court i am sure then she will be charge...in the law say she not allow to give the CPR but she still give it

yes
protocol is protocol who can say what the nurse did the right thing
Dirty_D
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:25:24 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


Actually they are mandated to call 911, even in cases where there is a DNR. The care delivered by medics may strictly be palliative (eg. oxygen, morphine etc.) in those cases however, until the person passes.


NOT true. (I deal with hospice patients daily)

I agree with one winged angel, I know so many people who call themselves a "nurse" CNA's, lab techs, even Vet techs. None of them are nurses but I hear it everyday. (by the way, to someone who has worked very hard to get her BSN, I find these kind of labels on unlicensed personal to be very insulting.)


Additionally in the state of FL, you might have signed a DNR, but if it isn't signed by the Dr & printed on the correct shade of yellow, it isn't legal, and would count as "no DNR signed." Not enough facts given to judge this case.



Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:40:21 PM

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naughtynurse wrote:


NOT true. (I deal with hospice patients daily)


Really? So if a person is struggling or suffering, there is no requirement to call 911 or offer palliative care? To my understanding - all a DNR is that it alerts paramedics not to perform aggressive chest compressions, intubation or mechanical ventilation in case of an emergency. Other than that, I think everyone would agree that some degree of palliative assistance if the patient is still alive is mandatory. In those cases it's about relieving suffering rather than reviving. At least that's what happened with my family member at the assisted-living centre they were at. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. Do places exist where the policy is just to shut the door and wait a few hours and check on them again until they're dead without any medical assistance? That doesn't seem right. :(


Buz
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:41:21 PM

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If there was a DNR I doubt that this would've made the news. I am sure everyone involved are nervously waiting on the report from the coroner's office. That will most likely determine the direction that this goes.

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:51:02 PM

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Buz wrote:
If there was a DNR I doubt that this would've made the news. I am sure everyone involved are nervously waiting on the report from the coroner's office. That will most likely determine the direction that this goes.


Yeah, but by virtue of the fact that the facility tells patient and family that they will not perform CPR in case of emergency - it's almost like an interim DNR on some level. I have to assume they can't be sued if the policy was explained and forms were signed showing understanding of procedure.


mare24
Posted: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:06:50 PM

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Honestly, as a nurse I can not even fathom standing by and not helping someone who is dying. Where is common decency and respect for life?
Dirty_D
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:36:19 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


Really? So if a person is struggling or suffering, there is no requirement to call 911 or offer palliative care? To my understanding - all a DNR is that it alerts paramedics not to perform aggressive chest compressions, intubation or mechanical ventilation in case of an emergency. Other than that, I think everyone would agree that some degree of palliative assistance if the patient is still alive is mandatory. In those cases it's about relieving suffering rather than reviving. At least that's what happened with my family member at the assisted-living centre they were at. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. Do places exist where the policy is just to shut the door and wait a few hours and check on them again until they're dead without any medical assistance? That doesn't seem right. :(


I didn't say that you shut the door and walk away. Here's an example:

I had a pt last week with a fib. She experienced periods of non responsiveness from time to time related to her disease process. We checked on her hourly, making certain she was comfortable, her o2 sats were good, she was turned, heels floated, changed her to an air mattress, preformed oral care, ect. She had a signed DNR in place, and her family was aware of the situation. When she passed it was quiet & peaceful. Death was pronounced by the RN, family was notified, MD was notified, & the funeral home was called.

I had a pt once who transferred to our facility. Her paperwork didn't all come appropriately at the time of transfer(happens more then you would think). I had a verbal report that she had a signed DNR in place but no physical yellow sheet. She coded within 8 hrs of her arrival. We were required to start CPR and call 911. In that case she ended up having her leg DRILLED into to start a line. Her chest compressions lasted for 30 minutes as we tried to reach business offices at 7a to get a copy of her DNR. I know from later speaking to the family that they were just as upset that we did the CPR then some others would be if we hadn't.

There are many courses on nursing ethics. It can be quite complex.




Guest
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:37:56 AM

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http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2960264-0/fulltext

The above is a review of the crisis within the NHS in England. Institutional Neglect some have described it as, some have advocated that willful blindness was in play, some commentators have blamed fear, standards, concerns over league tables and so on as the causal factors.

The reality is that people become weary and tired of raising concerns, if there concern isn't addressed it is unsurprising that people conform tot he will of those in power. Whistle blowers have been vilified, staff have lost their jobs, a climate of fear prevails.

In reading this particular (not black and white) case I was struck by the fact that once again humanity has been placed under the microscope and we don't like what we see, we have no choice therefore but to come down on one side or the other and find someone to blame, sadly we exist (certainly in the West) where we need, yes need, someone to blame, that way we don;t have to see our role in the mess we have made of the world, and yes we are all responsible in some way for this event here and the events of Mid Stafford-shire, we have allowed this to happen, generally as a result of our apathy. When the spotlight shines we throw our arms up in disgust and say how could this happen.

Imagine your the nurse in this scenario, working I don't know how many hours to provide for her family, maybe at each case review the nurse has raised this issue, and each time her thoughts and views were overlooked. Is it surprising that she toes the party line? hardly a surprise I'd say.

Who can truly say with total conviction that they would risk losing their livelihood (especially in the current economic climate) and be resolute enough to say, I won't feed my children, provide a home for them, clothe and keep them warm, if the institution they work in has policies and procedures that tie staff up in knots and leave them with feelings of being unable to affect any change, I know I would LOVE to say that I would, but I am really not sure, not 100% sure anyhow.

Without wishing to sound too trite, we cannot and should not judge someone until we have walked a mile in their shoes, in the fullness of time this nurse will undoubtedly have to find a way to cope with the outcome, the facility owner's will also have to find a way to cope. Rest assured no matter how we may appear, when we are alone and left with our thoughts we will certainly reflect upon our actions, and having to deal with the ramifications will take its toll, of that I am sure. (thinking is one of the most stressful things we do!)

Life is never ever black and white, people make decisions and have to live with them.

Time and the inevitable investigation (and the even more inevitable outcome, lessons have to be learned, which invariably are not learned) will no doubt decide who is or is not responsible.

Hopefully some enlightened people with common sense will come up with a more empathetic process, until then we could (as human beings) give the nurse involved the benefit of doubt.

I know I do, at least until the full facts are revealed.
Dirty_D
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:38:26 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


Yeah, but by virtue of the fact that the facility tells patient and family that they will not perform CPR in case of emergency - it's almost like an interim DNR on some level. I have to assume they can't be sued if the policy was explained and forms were signed showing understanding of procedure.


Our CNA's are NOT allowed to perform CPR. And they frequently call themselves nurses.


Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 6:42:52 AM

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naughtynurse wrote:


I didn't say that you shut the door and walk away. Here's an example:

I had a pt last week with a fib. She experienced periods of non responsiveness from time to time related to her disease process. We checked on her hourly, making certain she was comfortable, her o2 sats were good, she was turned, heels floated, changed her to an air mattress, preformed oral care, ect. She had a signed DNR in place, and her family was aware of the situation. When she passed it was quiet & peaceful. Death was pronounced by the RN, family was notified, MD was notified, & the funeral home was called.

I had a pt once who transferred to our facility. Her paperwork didn't all come appropriately at the time of transfer(happens more then you would think). I had a verbal report that she had a signed DNR in place but no physical yellow sheet. She coded within 8 hrs of her arrival. We were required to start CPR and call 911. In that case she ended up having her leg DRILLED into to start a line. Her chest compressions lasted for 30 minutes as we tried to reach business offices at 7a to get a copy of her DNR. I know from later speaking to the family that they were just as upset that we did the CPR then some others would be if we hadn't.

There are many courses on nursing ethics. It can be quite complex.



The second case you described sounds awful.

I assume each type of facility has their own procedure in place, maybe also related to how much care they are actually able to provide in that setting and what kind of medical personnel is there at the time. An assisted living centre like the one this woman was in really has limited means to treat. It's more 'carers' than registered nurses (compared to a hospice environment).




Dirty_D
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 8:03:02 AM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


The second case you described sounds awful.

I assume each type of facility has their own procedure in place, maybe also related to how much care they are actually able to provide in that setting and what kind of medical personnel is there at the time. An assisted living centre like the one this woman was in really has limited means to treat. It's more 'carers' than registered nurses (compared to a hospice environment).



It was to be honest. What do you do? You know the pt wishes, but legally you have to do something else. I can't afford to lose my liscense!

That is exactly why I say we font have enough information to judge this case!


Ruthie
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 2:48:13 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


Really? So if a person is struggling or suffering, there is no requirement to call 911 or offer palliative care? To my understanding - all a DNR is that it alerts paramedics not to perform aggressive chest compressions, intubation or mechanical ventilation in case of an emergency. Other than that, I think everyone would agree that some degree of palliative assistance if the patient is still alive is mandatory. In those cases it's about relieving suffering rather than reviving. At least that's what happened with my family member at the assisted-living centre they were at. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. Do places exist where the policy is just to shut the door and wait a few hours and check on them again until they're dead without any medical assistance? That doesn't seem right. :(


The purpose of hospice care is to help people die. When a person goes into hospice care they go with the understanding that they are not going to recover from whatever disease is killing them. The idea is to keep people as comfortable as possible while they die. Access to pain killers is usually better under hospice care, and is one of the reasons some people enter a hospice in the final stages of their illness instead of going to a hospital for more treatments.

I don't know enough about his particular case to comment on it, but there are many people who don't want to be kept alive after the point where their lives are no longer worth living. Whether or not the patient in this case wanted to be kept alive is the only valid question.

http://








Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:31:38 PM

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CoopsRuthie wrote:


The purpose of hospice care is to help people die. When a person goes into hospice care they go with the understanding that they are not going to recover from whatever disease is killing them. The idea is to keep people as comfortable as possible while they die. Access to pain killers is usually better under hospice care, and is one of the reasons some people enter a hospice in the final stages of their illness instead of going to a hospital for more treatments.


That makes sense in a hospice situation - but this patient wasn't in a hospice environment. My original comment was pertaining to someone who was in an independent or assisted living centre (like this patient) and the requirements of calling 911 if the patient became non-responsive. I assumed it was mandatory to do so (regardless of whether a DNR is in place or not, or whether the facility can provide interim CPR). When naughtynurse said 'no', it surprised me. I can understand not doing so in hospice, but independent/assisted living seems like a whole other scenario. Maybe we're all talking about different things on this one. That was more of a side issue anyway. If the patient and family were aware of the limitations of this particular facility and were fine with the arrangements, I don't really see any breach of conduct in a legal sense.


Ruthie
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:44:14 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:

Maybe we're all talking about different things on this one. That was more of a side issue anyway. If the patient and family were aware of the limitations of this particular facility and were fine with the arrangements, I don't really see any breach of conduct in a legal sense.


It appears that the patient did not have a DNR on file. According to the facility spokesperson, Jeffery Toomer, "In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community, our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives. That is the protocol we followed."

That's a policy that needs to change. I expect that it will after the lawsuit.

http://








Jinxy
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:40:22 PM

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I'm mixed on this, if the lady knew about these things when moving there, she risked that.
Otherwise, I think it's horrible, and something they should change.

†Jinxy Approved†

Dirty_D
Posted: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 11:45:49 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


That makes sense in a hospice situation - but this patient wasn't in a hospice environment. My original comment was pertaining to someone who was in an independent or assisted living centre (like this patient) and the requirements of calling 911 if the patient became non-responsive. I assumed it was mandatory to do so (regardless of whether a DNR is in place or not, or whether the facility can provide interim CPR). When naughtynurse said 'no', it surprised me. I can understand not doing so in hospice, but independent/assisted living seems like a whole other scenario. Maybe we're all talking about different things on this one. That was more of a side issue anyway. If the patient and family were aware of the limitations of this particular facility and were fine with the arrangements, I don't really see any breach of conduct in a legal sense.


Hospice is not a facility, although some hospices have facilities. It is a way of managing end of life transitions and can be implemented anywhere including home environments.

CPR is a huge liability if implemented improperly, which is very easy. Once it has been initiated it cannot be stopped for any reason until the person has been revived or pronounced. It does not suprise me that an ALF would have this type of policy.

I don't know details. I just think that blanket judgements when we don't know the all facts is a bit harsh.


overmykneenow
Posted: Thursday, March 7, 2013 8:18:09 AM

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orangefox444 wrote:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2960264-0/fulltext

The above is a review of the crisis within the NHS in England. Institutional Neglect some have described it as, some have advocated that willful blindness was in play, some commentators have blamed fear, standards, concerns over league tables and so on as the causal factors.

The reality is that people become weary and tired of raising concerns, if there concern isn't addressed it is unsurprising that people conform tot he will of those in power. Whistle blowers have been vilified, staff have lost their jobs, a climate of fear prevails.


The current cases of willful negligence in the NHS have nothing whatsoever to do with this case or similar decisions not to resuscitate. Those were down to mistakes made at the highest level of the NHS and DoH and the consequences of those mistakes filtering down to the rank and file. In my opinion the "nurse" in this, given the facts available, DID NOTHING WRONG. Making parallels between these cases is missing the point entirely.

Was the emergency dispatcher medically qualified? Almost certainly not. Like most people here, they probably thought that asking someone to perform CPR would be the best course of action. It wasn't. If anything, they should be reviewing their dispatcher about offering emergency medical advice over the phone.

Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

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Tranquil
Posted: Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:50:30 PM

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We always hear about this kind of thing coming out of America..
People seem to dial their lawyers rather then 911 half the time.
Only you as a people can change this mentality..it would be a society change that the insurance companies would fight to the end. and Man kinds greed would be the other item you would be fighting.
I live in a country that we don't pay a lawyer to make us money if we slip over at someone's house..but i am sure being a western society country we will follow suit...I just wish and hope it isn't in my life time.



Ardentmale
Posted: Friday, March 8, 2013 11:11:19 AM

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There are many points that have been made about this woman and the dispatcher... Forget about lawyers, lawsuits and all the legal garbage... It comes down to one thing... What society in America is becoming... People who would rather follow policy than do the right thing... I have performed CPR at work numerous times, probably 80% of the time it didnt save a life, even with an AED... To me its about wanting to help, wanting to do something, just trying... I for one could not work in a facility that wouldnt allow me to perform CPR... I think the dispatcher can sleep at night knowing she tried to do something... As for the nurse, that is something she has to decide... I dont think she necessarily deserves to go to jail, maybe just some true, deep, soul searching on her part... But then most of society needs to do that... We are slowly becoming a greedy, me me me society... Truly a shame...

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Guest
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 1:28:39 PM

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lafayettemister wrote:
YahooNews Link

An 87 year old woman died after collapsing in her Assisted Living Facility. Not a nursing home, these residents are still partly able to care for themselves. It's like an apartment complex for the elderly, they do receive aid but are still mostly self sufficient.

After the woman collapsed, a call to 911 was made. A nurse got on the phone and refused to give CPR even as the emergency operator implored her too. Absolving her and the facility of any responsibility if the lady died anyway. Btw, the elderly lady did NOT have a DNR on file. For over seven minutes, the nurse stayed with the dying woman but would not do anything to help.

The 911 operator pleaded for help from someone who didn't work at the facility...

"I understand if your boss is telling you, you can't do it," the dispatcher said. "But ... as a human being ... you know, is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?"

"Not at this time," the nurse answered.

"Is there a gardener? Any staff, anyone who doesn't work for you? Anywhere? Can we flag someone down in the street and get them to help this lady? Can we flag a stranger down? I bet a stranger would help her."

"I understand if your facility is not willing to do that. Give the phone to a passer-by. This woman is not breathing enough. She is going to die if we don't get this started, do you understand?"

So far, there has been no response from the woman's family.

Should the nurse be charged with a crime? The facility?
Actually, The 911 operator should be the one that is terminated. A phone operator is going to question a health care professional about thier patient care? really? I think this is a case where the nurse why just lying to the operator, to safeguard against breaching patient confidentiality, A major " DON'T" in the health care industry. Even disclosing that her patient was DNR to a 911 operator would be a breach. Not only would the nurse lose thier job, but also thier nursing license. Patient information is given out on a need to know basis and only given to personel DIRECTLY related to providing her with health care, or say a diagnostic service. The operators job is to get EMS dispatched asap and that's all. There is nothing the operator can do that is going to directly change that patients status. Patients have a right to privacy. therefore, all information regarding patients and thier care is classified as confidential, and only given on a need to know basis.
lambdavi
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 2:41:32 AM

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lovewhenuswallow wrote:
Actually, The 911 operator should be the one that is terminated. A phone operator is going to question a health care professional about thier patient care? really? I think this is a case where the nurse why just lying to the operator, to safeguard against breaching patient confidentiality, A major " DON'T" in the health care industry. Even disclosing that her patient was DNR to a 911 operator would be a breach. Not only would the nurse lose thier job, but also thier nursing license. Patient information is given out on a need to know basis and only given to personel DIRECTLY related to providing her with health care, or say a diagnostic service. The operators job is to get EMS dispatched asap and that's all. There is nothing the operator can do that is going to directly change that patients status. Patients have a right to privacy. therefore, all information regarding patients and thier care is classified as confidential, and only given on a need to know basis.


I disagree. Anybody's right to privacy is never as strong as the right to live. If you disagree to this statement, go out, get mugged, stabbed and shot, then see whether you want the 911 operator to limit his activities to dispatching EMS onsite or whether you expect him to ask questions in order to determine your state of urgency and thus your priority on the plethora of 911 calls in any medium-large city.

My wife is a doctor, a GP (General Practitioner, aka Family Doctor). She cannot refuse to visit a neighbor, if critical, even if said neighbor is not officially one of her patients.
It's a crime and she would be arrested for that.

I am aghast that an old people's home (or whatever) has a blanket DNR policy, it should not have been allowed to operate by the local authorities because it is a breach on the individual's right to live.
De facto, it should be grounds for charges of manslaughter.
blondi88
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 4:24:58 AM

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If this 'nurse' was qualified in first aid she is legally obligated, I think that she should be disciplined. If she was not qualified but had training in first aid she is not legally obligated, it is her decision weather to preform CPR, personally as a Nurse myself, I would give CPR. It is my job to preserve life. Maybe she was under qualified and scared?

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Guest
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:05:57 AM

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It's been said before, but I'll say it again. What proof is there that CPR would have saved her?

If she'd performed CPR on that elderly lady, there's a very high chance that she might have injured her, making her death all the more painful and the headlines would have been something along the lines of, "Nurse injures and kills ailing woman." People are too quick to jump up and say this person is wrong or that person is wrong and should have something done to them without knowing all the facts.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:15:11 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. What proof is there that CPR would have saved her?

If she'd performed CPR on that elderly lady, there's a very high chance that she might have injured her, making her death all the more painful and the headlines would have been something along the lines of, "Nurse injures and kills ailing woman." People are too quick to jump up and say this person is wrong or that person is wrong and should have something done to them without knowing all the facts.



There is no proof that it would have worked. But, it's 100% certain the lady was going to die without CPR. If the lady were my mom, I'd be pretty pissed that someone else decided whether or not my mother was going to live or die. It's not the nurse's decision to make, not in this instance. If the lady did not sign a DNR, then to me that says she still intended to live as long as possible, by whatever (most) means possible. CPR is the first line of defense, First Aid. Not like being hooked up to machines for days, weeks, or months. I think the nurse should have done the CPR... get some air in the lungs and some blood moving in the woman's body. Long enough for paramedics to get there and transfer to a hospital for more thorough care.

I don't plan to go down without a fight. If I go down, I expect someone to riverdance on my chest if needed.





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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:24:37 AM

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lafayettemister wrote:



There is no proof that it would have worked. But, it's 100% certain the lady was going to die without CPR. If the lady were my mom, I'd be pretty pissed that someone else decided whether or not my mother was going to live or die. It's not the nurse's decision to make, not in this instance. If the lady did not sign a DNR, then to me that says she still intended to live as long as possible, by whatever (most) means possible. CPR is the first line of defense, First Aid. Not like being hooked up to machines for days, weeks, or months. I think the nurse should have done the CPR... get some air in the lungs and some blood moving in the woman's body. Long enough for paramedics to get there and transfer to a hospital for more thorough care.

I don't plan to go down without a fight. If I go down, I expect someone to riverdance on my chest if needed.


Riverdance on your chest if you're an 80+ year old woman, possibly with osteoporosis? That could have damaged if not broken her ribs which could have gone on to cause even more damage.

The daughter was fine with her mom being there and whoever signed the papers for the woman to be in the facility was the one who decided that CPR should not have been performed since it's part of the place's policy.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:36:24 AM

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one_winged_angel wrote:


Riverdance on your chest if you're an 80+ year old woman, possibly with osteoporosis? That could have damaged if not broken her ribs which could have gone on to cause even more damage.

The daughter was fine with her mom being there and whoever signed the papers for the woman to be in the facility was the one who decided that CPR should not have been performed since it's part of the place's policy.


I'd prefer a few broken ribs over death.

I'm curious to see more from the woman's family. Did she have more than one child, and if so what do they think. As others have said, we need more info. Maybe this was the only facility in their area that they could afford, so they had to accept this policy because they had no other option? I don't know.







When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40:53 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 883,389
lafayettemister wrote:


I'd prefer a few broken ribs over death.

I'm curious to see more from the woman's family. Did she have more than one child, and if so what do they think. As others have said, we need more info. Maybe this was the only facility in their area that they could afford, so they had to accept this policy because they had no other option? I don't know.



Like I said earlier, there's no proof that CPR would have saved her. And a few broken ribs with ongoing cpr could have lead to punctured lungs, liver, heart damage etc, resulting in either a quick or slow, but definately painful death.

And I do agree and have said before that we don't have all the facts so all the fingerpointing is pointless.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:46:06 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/4/2010
Posts: 6,694
Location: Alabama, United States
one_winged_angel wrote:


Like I said earlier, there's no proof that CPR would have saved her. And a few broken ribs with ongoing cpr could have lead to punctured lungs, liver, heart damage etc, resulting in either a quick or slow, but definately painful death.

And I do agree and have said before that we don't have all the facts so all the fingerpointing is pointless.



There's no proof that CPR would save anyone, it rarely works.





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:53:21 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 883,389
lafayettemister wrote:



There's no proof that CPR would save anyone, it rarely works.


I'm going to guess you're being sarcastic here since you've been pushing for CPR, but that's actually true, espeically in the elderly population. Most studies put the survival rate after CPR in the elderly at less than 5 % with the survivors being generally healthy people with minor health issues, (if she was in a facility, I'm guessing she wasn't exactly the picture of health).

And even in younger people, it's 2-30% effective when administered outside of a hospital with the rate depending on several factors like the person's health conditions, the reason the CPR was administered in the first place, technique used, etc. Which is probably why the place had the policy in the first place.
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