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What's your opinion on abortion? Options · View
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 10:32:22 AM

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MadMartigan wrote:


Get pregnant to get the drugs?

I'm sorry. I'm calling BS on that. That's exactly the kind of propaganda right-wing nuts launch into the public sphere to paint abortion and the women who get them as demonic monsters.



Absolutely. There are farrrrr easier ways to get drugs. To say that anyone would think this was the best option when you're jonesing for narcotics (ie. find guy, get pregnant, go to clinic, go through counselling interviews, procedure etc) is ridiculous. Especially when there are drug dealers everywhere that can deliver to your door in one hour or less with whatever you want - street drugs or prescription.




For the most part - abortion is done under a very light anesthetic (you are awake but groggy) - it's over in about a minute and then you go sit down in a lounger with a cup of OJ and an oatmeal bar until you feel fine to leave. There's no post-care loot bag of oxycontin or happy pills. You don't get drugs - unless maybe there were complications, but that's not something you can fake and it's definitely not the norm. The pain is psychological and emotional - not physical.

And for any pro-lifer who says "no, it's true, my friend of a friend's aunt's cousin knows this girl named Janet who lives two towns over and gets abortions for fun" - seriously think about what you're saying. Nobody, outside of someone with a serious mental health illness, will be engaging in anything this emotionally traumatic or scarring "for fun" or just to try to get some "painkillers". That person would need a psychiatrist and a rehab clinic. That is not a generalized reality for the other 99% of women.

It's not a 'fun thing' or a way to be let off the hook of responsibilities. Trust me - there will be repercussions no matter what choice you make. When someone says they are pro-choice - it doesn't mean they are gleeful, casual or dismissive about abortion. It doesn't mean that it's an easy way to wash your hands of something. And it doesn't mean that it won't fucking haunt you until you die. But it's a choice. Made with sound mind in most cases that are in the best interests of the life of the mother - whether it be due to matters of health, lifestyle, financial restrictions, age, ambition, schooling or whatever. It's a choice - that a woman should have a right to make because she has autonomy over her own body.


VanGogh
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:54:34 PM

Rank: Sarcastic Coffee Aficionado

Joined: 2/10/2012
Posts: 3,952
Location: Vancouver, Canada
I am appalled at the couple of women on this thread that have used age as a factor of "how can YOU at ___ age POSSIBLY know?" (or "do YOU have children?) to their condescending tone to other women. You both have made it even more apparent why I am friends with mostly men, and why the few female friends I do have, I cherish.

I can't believe some women are so closed minded to think that the option of abortion is lightly taken. (I had thought just "some" men had that opinion.) I do not know of anyone who just shrugged and said .... no biggie. (And, DD above's comment about drugs is 100% spot on - at least here in Canada)

What irritates me the most in this thread is that as a Pro-Choice woman, I can understand those that rally around the Pro-life - and would NEVER attack your stance - but for some reason, those in the Pro-Life "Abolition Abortion Rights" do not have the same compassion or empathy.

All I can say to you couple of women is this:

May YOU (or your daughter, niece, friend) never find yourself in a situation wherein an abortion is necessary - and all you have is a coat hanger to hopefully make a bloody mess with.

Life is not cut and dry, nor does it always going accordingly to "good intentions" .....



Dani
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:27:22 PM

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htowngirl1990 wrote:

How would you feel if you found out that your mother wanted to abort you, but your mother's parents wouldn't let her? How would you feel knowing that there was a possibility of your existence ending in the early stages simply because your mother didn't want the burden of raising you? I imagine it being similar to children finding out that when they were a baby or a toddler, their parents gave them away for a while because they didn't want responsibility, then when they were good and ready they wanted you back.


This exact thing happened with me, but in reverse. As I've said before, my biological mother's family wanted her to abort me. She didn't want to. She ran away until she was too far along and an adoption was arranged. I'm still pro-choice.

As far as the other bit about parents giving kids up and then wanting them back, I think that's the most selfish thing ever. It's one thing if you need to get your life together. But you can't give a kid away just because and then want them back. That messes kids up...but I digress. This has nothing to do with abortion. Not even sure why you brought it up.

What does family have to do with MY decision to get an abortion? What does anybody have to do with the decisions I make? If my mother wanted an abortion, how I feel would be moot because I wouldn't exist. Duh.

SHE made the decision to keep me. It wasn't made for her. Just like she shouldn't have been forced into an abortion, she shouldn't be forced to keep a baby either.

How would you feel if someone strapped you down and made you get an abortion? You wouldn't like it, would you? So why is it OK to make a woman go through with a pregnancy she wishes to terminate?

I'd seriously like someone, anyone to answer this.



Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:32:45 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
Your arguments against my statements just make you look foolish. If you want to stay in your shell and hide from anything outside the norm, fine by me. People made the same arguments about people who are necrophiliacs. Oh nobody could possibly have sex with a dead body, that's just outrageous, must be a rightwing-nutjob making up more shit. Do you not see the tweets or the posts on facebook when teenage girls brag about getting an abortion? The drugs they prescribe for the pain are stronger than most others, most of which even a drug deal can't get. Keep your ignorance and be happy. Go get all the abortions you want, go get those fetuses yanked from your body as many times as you want. I hope you can sleep well knowing that you're murdering innocent lives. Maybe it's a good thing that people like that will get abortions, we don't need any more of them around. If you think there aren't depraved people out there, you're sadly mistaken and I'll let you live happily in your ignorant bliss.

I guess Charles Manson never could have helped his followers kill other people and kill themselves because nobody could ever be that mentally depraved. I guess Hitler could have never killed millions of jews because, as you said, it's the exact kind of right wing nutjob argument to scare people. I guess Andrea Yates didn't really drown her five children because nobody could be that crazy. Maybe people don't really use smaller dogs to help toughen up their fighting dogs because nobody could be that mentally depraved to force dogs to fight. I guess drive-by shootings don't happen either. I guess children don't die at the hands of their parents either.... OH WAIT! That's EXACTLY what you're defending here; children dying at the hands of their irresponsible parents.


See how your argument makes you look foolish? But, I guess you're right because NOBODY could ever be that fucked up in the head.

Allowing all abortions just because a select group get pregnant under terrible circumstances is just as bad as banning all of them because a select group of women who are mentally fucked up. It's funny how some women can justify killing an innocent baby simply because "women deserve rights".
Dani
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:41:11 PM

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htowngirl1990 wrote:
Your arguments against my statements just make you look foolish. If you want to stay in your shell and hide from anything outside the norm, fine by me. People made the same arguments about people who are necrophiliacs. Oh nobody could possibly have sex with a dead body, that's just outrageous, must be a rightwing-nutjob making up more shit. Do you not see the tweets or the posts on facebook when teenage girls brag about getting an abortion? The drugs they prescribe for the pain are stronger than most others, most of which even a drug deal can't get. Keep your ignorance and be happy. Go get all the abortions you want, go get those fetuses yanked from your body as many times as you want. I hope you can sleep well knowing that you're murdering innocent lives. Maybe it's a good thing that people like that will get abortions, we don't need any more of them around. If you think there aren't depraved people out there, you're sadly mistaken and I'll let you live happily in your ignorant bliss.

I guess Charles Manson never could have helped his followers kill other people and kill themselves because nobody could ever be that mentally depraved. I guess Hitler could have never killed millions of jews because, as you said, it's the exact kind of right wing nutjob argument to scare people. I guess Andrea Yates didn't really drown her five children because nobody could be that crazy. Maybe people don't really use smaller dogs to help toughen up their fighting dogs because nobody could be that mentally depraved to force dogs to fight. I guess drive-by shootings don't happen either. I guess children don't die at the hands of their parents either.... OH WAIT! That's EXACTLY what you're defending here; children dying at the hands of their irresponsible parents.


See how your argument makes you look foolish? But, I guess you're right because NOBODY could ever be that fucked up in the head.

Allowing all abortions just because a select group get pregnant under terrible circumstances is just as bad as banning all of them because a select group of women who are mentally fucked up. It's funny how some women can justify killing an innocent baby simply because "women deserve rights".


I'd like to see some facts...and I hope for your sake that social media isn't the extent of your research. Do you know how many social media trolls say these type of things just for shock value? Furthermore, do you know how many right-wing nutjobs are often the ones behind these troll social media accounts just to support their cause? Wake up and stop feeding into propaganda. Form a thought that hasn't been fed to you. This is so much bigger than abortion. It's about your rights as a woman.

I won't even go into the other things you've said because, sorry to say, it's all utter nonsense and sounds like the rantings of someone rather unstable. To even compare a perversion such as necrophilia to abortion is absolutely absurd.

And as far as sleeping at night, I'll sleep like a baby every night knowing I have the right as a woman to do with my body as I please.

I'm not telling you which side to choose. You don't like abortion, that's fine. I respect that. I get that. I'm not judging you for it. Don't get an abortion...and don't try to tamper with my right to get one.



Shylass
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:51:43 PM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,862
Location: Wiggleton, United Kingdom
htowngirl1990 wrote:
Your arguments against my statements just make you look foolish. If you want to stay in your shell and hide from anything outside the norm, fine by me. People made the same arguments about people who are necrophiliacs. Oh nobody could possibly have sex with a dead body, that's just outrageous, must be a rightwing-nutjob making up more shit. Do you not see the tweets or the posts on facebook when teenage girls brag about getting an abortion? The drugs they prescribe for the pain are stronger than most others, most of which even a drug deal can't get. Keep your ignorance and be happy. Go get all the abortions you want, go get those fetuses yanked from your body as many times as you want. I hope you can sleep well knowing that you're murdering innocent lives. Maybe it's a good thing that people like that will get abortions, we don't need any more of them around. If you think there aren't depraved people out there, you're sadly mistaken and I'll let you live happily in your ignorant bliss.

I guess Charles Manson never could have helped his followers kill other people and kill themselves because nobody could ever be that mentally depraved. I guess Hitler could have never killed millions of jews because, as you said, it's the exact kind of right wing nutjob argument to scare people. I guess Andrea Yates didn't really drown her five children because nobody could be that crazy. Maybe people don't really use smaller dogs to help toughen up their fighting dogs because nobody could be that mentally depraved to force dogs to fight. I guess drive-by shootings don't happen either. I guess children don't die at the hands of their parents either.... OH WAIT! That's EXACTLY what you're defending here; children dying at the hands of their irresponsible parents.


See how your argument makes you look foolish? But, I guess you're right because NOBODY could ever be that fucked up in the head.

Allowing all abortions just because a select group get pregnant under terrible circumstances is just as bad as banning all of them because a select group of women who are mentally fucked up. It's funny how some women can justify killing an innocent baby simply because "women deserve rights".


Not everybody believes, with scientific facts and thresholds to back them up, that a foetus IS a baby, nor that it is murder.

This was always going to be a difficult thread, but there are some things that can be said without being judgemental, cruel, lacking in compassion, and demonstrating inability to consider the ethical and moral implications of both those facts, and the beliefs of the pro-choice posters.

As I said previously, I am pro-life, and I believe that every life is sacred from the moment of conception. But I do not deny that others differ in their beliefs on this matter, and I do not speak to them in the way that you just have.

How can you expect anybody to listen to your point of view when you react so aggressively, rudely, narrow-mindedly and unempathetically? I am ashamed of your post and attitude, because I share a tiny portion of your beliefs. In my opinion, you ought to be ashamed of yourself!

Yes, certain pro-choice folk have been vehement and lacking in grace in their opinions (that's a personal observation), and many have posted without decorum on both sides of the argument. But the statements I have quoted? They make me angry, disgusted, and ashamed, because you have ripped into people you obviously either cannot, or will not understand. Just because they cannot believe your experiences of folk, and disagree with your chosen beliefs?

Fire cannot beat fire when one wishes to save a house and/or occupants. All is consumed in the end. And this thread is blazing because people will not or cannot step back and stop burning each other.

Think Tank? Obviously not.



Ut incepit fidelis, sic permanet.

***
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Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:09:46 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
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htowngirl1990 wrote:
Do you not see the tweets or the posts on facebook when teenage girls brag about getting an abortion? The drugs they prescribe for the pain are stronger than most others, most of which even a drug deal can't get. Keep your ignorance and be happy.


First of all, stop believing things you see posted on Facebook and Twitter. Have you had personal experience or been inside an abortion clinic? I have. Do you even know what the procedure involves? What are these magic "drugs they prescribe that are stronger than most painkillers" that not even a drug dealer can get that you speak of that they supposedly dole out for standard first trimester abortions. You talk about ignorance, and I'd like you to back it up with facts. Name me the drug. And don't tell me, "I saw it on facebook, so I know it must be true."

The rest of your rant, I'll ignore because it's too incoherent and I'm pretty sure I've read most of it on picket signs on those old documentaries about abortion activists in the '80s and '90s who cheered on the asshole laying in wait with the gun, waiting to take out the doctors and clinic staff. If I were to paint all (or even most) pro-lifers with those kinds of broad brush strokes, it would be kind of unfair, wouldn't it? Same goes when you single out that 1-2% of the mentally ill who do stupid things because they're fucked up in the head and try to make a sweeping generalization with it.







Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:14:55 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
htowngirl1990 wrote:
Your arguments against my statements just make you look foolish. If you want to stay in your shell and hide from anything outside the norm, fine by me. People made the same arguments about people who are necrophiliacs. Oh nobody could possibly have sex with a dead body, that's just outrageous, must be a rightwing-nutjob making up more shit. Do you not see the tweets or the posts on facebook when teenage girls brag about getting an abortion? The drugs they prescribe for the pain are stronger than most others, most of which even a drug deal can't get. Keep your ignorance and be happy. Go get all the abortions you want, go get those fetuses yanked from your body as many times as you want. I hope you can sleep well knowing that you're murdering innocent lives. Maybe it's a good thing that people like that will get abortions, we don't need any more of them around. If you think there aren't depraved people out there, you're sadly mistaken and I'll let you live happily in your ignorant bliss.

I guess Charles Manson never could have helped his followers kill other people and kill themselves because nobody could ever be that mentally depraved. I guess Hitler could have never killed millions of jews because, as you said, it's the exact kind of right wing nutjob argument to scare people. I guess Andrea Yates didn't really drown her five children because nobody could be that crazy. Maybe people don't really use smaller dogs to help toughen up their fighting dogs because nobody could be that mentally depraved to force dogs to fight. I guess drive-by shootings don't happen either. I guess children don't die at the hands of their parents either.... OH WAIT! That's EXACTLY what you're defending here; children dying at the hands of their irresponsible parents.


See how your argument makes you look foolish? But, I guess you're right because NOBODY could ever be that fucked up in the head.

Allowing all abortions just because a select group get pregnant under terrible circumstances is just as bad as banning all of them because a select group of women who are mentally fucked up. It's funny how some women can justify killing an innocent baby simply because "women deserve rights".


Exactly why I am soooo glad that my mind, for whatever arguable reason, cannot think, process or fathom the process of thinking of some people on the right. Your arguments are absurd htowngirl. Comparing Charles Manson and even Hitler with women who believe they have the right to control their own bodies, lawfully supported by the Supreme Court, is beyond rational comprehension. Furthering your argument to include dog-fighting and drive-by shootings should go down as setting a new bar for incredibly ridiculous opinion processing.

To answer your question...NO! I have never seen not even one tweet or comment by a woman on facebook bragging about her abortion or the drugs she received after the process. I think you live in a right wing la-la land. Thats not to say that some right wing blog didn't write a blog with phony history and resources. It happens all the time. They are real blogs. They really happen and they are lies.

No...you stay in your warped world. I'll bet it's even kinda fun thinking YOU and your OPINIONS are what the world revolve around.

Another thing...off the beaten path...it's people like you who are for cutting food stamps, against helping single mothers with modest (at best) assistance and protecting innocent Americans by simple common sense gun regulation that are against legal abortions. "Don't kill that fetus," ya'all so loudly demand. "But don't come looking for any help either."I could go on and on but then you would have to have a cognitive, rational mind to understand my point.

Nuff said.
Ruthie
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:17:59 PM

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htowngirl1990 wrote:
Your arguments against my statements just make you look foolish.



I have read your statements and taken them into consideration. Here is my rebuttal: You don't get to choose what I do with my body. I do. You don't get to make my decisions. I will make them for myself. You get to have your opinion, and I will never insist that you get an abortion.
Monocle
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 6:14:47 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 301
htowngirl1990 wrote:

Charles Manson
Hitler
Andrea Yates


Godwin's Law. You've got nothing but hyperbole and "personal experience" of rare, extreme cases. Nothing worth listening to.
Mazza
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 6:29:24 PM

Rank: Mazztastic

Joined: 9/20/2012
Posts: 3,351
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
My thoughts on abortion are this...

As things currently stand, it is legal and relatively readily available in my country, The United Kingdom. As far as I know, there are no plans to change this.

In my opinion, if it IS legal, then we shouldn't really be judging people who exercise their rights to terminate a pregnancy. It is their legal right, it's that simple. Why should it be more acceptable for one woman to end her pregnancy because it's ectopic and might just kill her than for another who's been careless or unlucky enough to get pregnant? The consequences of her seeing that pregnancy to full term will have life long consequences for her and the baby, whether she keeps the child or abandons it or gives it up for adoption. Her decision to end her pregnancy is no less valid than the other woman's.

It doesn't make any difference.

Any woman's decision to end a pregnancy is her's and her's alone. If she is lucky enough to be in a position where she has a supportive partner, friends, family to help her through it, well, that's better, you need strong people around you, love and support, if you're going to cope, whether that's with a baby or with a voided womb from miscarriage or termination.

Loss. To lose a child is a loss, no matter the circumstances and even in situations where a woman has "foolishly" gotten herself pregnant and had an abortion, there is fear and there is loss. What if she can't conceive again, what if she keeps it? What if, what if, what if? How many older woman have found themselves pregnant when they thought their childbearing years were behind them? What if they couldn't bear the thought of the toll it would have on their body, the years of looking after an infant? Who are we to pour scorn on their decision not to go through that again?

How many woman who have a termination when they are young, won't imagine what their child would have become, what age they would be now, how their life would have been had they not taken the decision they did? Not many.

In nature, female animals often simultaneously abort their young, infants are often culled when hierarchies change; a male lion taking over a pack will generally kill off any cubs that are not his, mothers have been known to kill their young when in danger etc etc etc.

I guess you'd call it natural selection but we don't judge them for it, well, I don't.

My mother got pregnant with me when she was a schoolgirl and too young. Would her life have been easier if she'd gotten an abortion? Yes, I believe it would - I know that she probably wouldn't have ended up the mentally unbalanced man who knocked the shit out of her and the rest of us whenever he saw fit.

I think that if you are serious about wanting to help babies and children, then you have a choice - you can whine about women and their right to termination, the moral implications of that, but you're pissing into the wind - what's done is done.

If you want to make an actual difference, there are literally millions of REAL LIVE kids dying every single fucking day - go help them. Help the ones who DO have a life, the starving ones, the abused ones, the disadvantaged ones, the ones in war torn countries, the sick ones, the ones with junkie parents, the ones with no future, the ones destined to a shit life.

Educate them, feed them, cure them, save them - so they can stop the vicious cycle.

Give them a chance - go volunteer, demonstrate against cruelty, poverty, fascist regimes, sponsor a kid, donate some money, give up some of your precious time, become a doctor, an activist. These are the ones that really need your voice. Not the figurative ones.

There is so much that you/we can do if we'd just get off our arses and do it. It's all fine and well to sit here pontificating about the rights and wrongs but it gets us nowhere.

Don't waste your time banging your gums about this, it's pointless. Put that energy into something for the greater good.

Because by standing by, watching and doing nothing when children are dying, well, who am I to judge?

Nothing to see here...
Guest
Posted: Sunday, July 28, 2013 8:03:57 PM

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I apologize for my behavior.
sprite
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:14:40 AM

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htowngirl1990 wrote:
Your arguments against my statements just make you look foolish. If you want to stay in your shell and hide from anything outside the norm, fine by me. People made the same arguments about people who are necrophiliacs. Oh nobody could possibly have sex with a dead body, that's just outrageous, must be a rightwing-nutjob making up more shit. Do you not see the tweets or the posts on facebook when teenage girls brag about getting an abortion? The drugs they prescribe for the pain are stronger than most others, most of which even a drug deal can't get. Keep your ignorance and be happy. Go get all the abortions you want, go get those fetuses yanked from your body as many times as you want. I hope you can sleep well knowing that you're murdering innocent lives. Maybe it's a good thing that people like that will get abortions, we don't need any more of them around. If you think there aren't depraved people out there, you're sadly mistaken and I'll let you live happily in your ignorant bliss.

I guess Charles Manson never could have helped his followers kill other people and kill themselves because nobody could ever be that mentally depraved. I guess Hitler could have never killed millions of jews because, as you said, it's the exact kind of right wing nutjob argument to scare people. I guess Andrea Yates didn't really drown her five children because nobody could be that crazy. Maybe people don't really use smaller dogs to help toughen up their fighting dogs because nobody could be that mentally depraved to force dogs to fight. I guess drive-by shootings don't happen either. I guess children don't die at the hands of their parents either.... OH WAIT! That's EXACTLY what you're defending here; children dying at the hands of their irresponsible parents.


See how your argument makes you look foolish? But, I guess you're right because NOBODY could ever be that fucked up in the head.

Allowing all abortions just because a select group get pregnant under terrible circumstances is just as bad as banning all of them because a select group of women who are mentally fucked up. It's funny how some women can justify killing an innocent baby simply because "women deserve rights".


a few points:

-not sure where you're getting your info about drugs. i was given a choice between advil and tylenol - i chose tylenol (reccomended dosage 1000mg) since i have issues with advil. quite honestly, it's really hard to get high on tylenol. i could easily get stronger stuff from pretty much anywhere else. hell, i am getting stronger stuff right now for a simple infection. i could get better stuff for faking a back problem or getting into therapy. if you don't mind, i'd like you to tell me what drugs these people are getting? i'm curious now. maybe i went to the wrong place. :)

-oh, and during a mispent part of my youth i ran with drug dealers - i know the stuff they can get - trust me, you're not going to get stronger stuff prescribed for you after an abortion. just not going to happen.

-we're not talking about necrophilia here, which is illegal (and doesn't result in pregnancy). we're talking about abortion. please stay on track.

-teenage girls will brag about pretty much anything. doesn't make it true. anyone in their teens who is bragging about having an abortion is 99% certain to be a liar.

-fetus are not yanked from the body. it's more of a gently sucking.

-i sleep just fine at night, having never "murdered an innocent life". i do appreciate your concern, however, so thank you for that.

- i know for a fact that there are depraved people out there. one of them spent close to a year abusing me before putting me into an ICU ward. another one of them raped me. if you somehow think that having an abortion, knowing nothing of my circumstances, puts me on the same level of them, then i kind of think less of you. sorry, but that's just how it is.

- also, if you are comparing me to Charles Manson or Hitler, i have to start to wonder if you're not a little naive yourself? btw, bringing up Hitler is usually a move of desperation when someone knows they are on shaky ground in an argument. tell you what, once i've had 6 millon abortions, you can bring it up again, until then, why don't you leave him out of the conversation - it just makes you look bad.

-Andrea Yates - that's a really interesting person to bring up in favor of NOT having an abortion. i guess it's better to drown your kids later on down the line then it is to abort them? obviously, she shouldn't have been having kids, don't you agree?

-once again, not sure what dog fighting has to do with the a woman's right to choose.

-or drive by shootings, for that matter, tho i know they do happen. seen a couple. not really something i enjoyed. still, they didn't happen during an abortion or have any bearing on my decision to have one.

-how are children dying at the hands of irresponsible parents? a fetus is not a child - that's been established scientifically as well as legally here in the US.

-actually, you're the one looking kind of foolish, but that's cool, sometimes i look kind of silly too. it happens. thing is, i usually realize it and acknowledge it before i go too far.

-once again, fetus, not baby. get it right. fetus does not equal baby. use wiki if you'd like, it's fairly simple. google is your friend as well.

-so, women don't deserve rights, is that what you're implying here? because that's the message i'm getting, but i don't want to make assumptions in case we're just having trouble communicating on the same level.

-you should try meditation or yoga or something - all that pent up rage isn't good for you. letting it go would make you a lot happier. :)









Love not hate.
sprite
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:22:52 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
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Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 20,311
Location: My Tower, Spain
ps - for those who feel so strongly about women not having the right to have an abortion, can i ask how many of you have, or are in the process, of adopting unwanted kids? not being a bitch here, it's a legitimate question. btw, one of the things that kind of tees me off is all the pro-life folk who make it so hard for gay couples to adopt. that's the worst kind of hypocrisy i can imagine. they aren't really looking out for the well fare of the kids, they're just interested in exerting power over everyone they dislike, and that includes women, obviously. if they really cared, they'd make it easier for people who really wanted kids to adopt them.



Love not hate.
Magical_felix
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:27:22 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 7,920
Location: California
Mazza wrote:
My thoughts on abortion are this...

As things currently stand, it is legal and relatively readily available in my country, The United Kingdom. As far as I know, there are no plans to change this.

In my opinion, if it IS legal, then we shouldn't really be judging people who exercise their rights to terminate a pregnancy. It is their legal right, it's that simple. Why should it be more acceptable for one woman to end her pregnancy because it's ectopic and might just kill her than for another who's been careless or unlucky enough to get pregnant? The consequences of her seeing that pregnancy to full term will have life long consequences for her and the baby, whether she keeps the child or abandons it or gives it up for adoption. Her decision to end her pregnancy is no less valid than the other woman's.

It doesn't make any difference.

Any woman's decision to end a pregnancy is her's and her's alone. If she is lucky enough to be in a position where she has a supportive partner, friends, family to help her through it, well, that's better, you need strong people around you, love and support, if you're going to cope, whether that's with a baby or with a voided womb from miscarriage or termination.

Loss. To lose a child is a loss, no matter the circumstances and even in situations where a woman has "foolishly" gotten herself pregnant and had an abortion, there is fear and there is loss. What if she can't conceive again, what if she keeps it? What if, what if, what if? How many older woman have found themselves pregnant when they thought their childbearing years were behind them? What if they couldn't bear the thought of the toll it would have on their body, the years of looking after an infant? Who are we to pour scorn on their decision not to go through that again?

How many woman who have a termination when they are young, won't imagine what their child would have become, what age they would be now, how their life would have been had they not taken the decision they did? Not many.

In nature, female animals often simultaneously abort their young, infants are often culled when hierarchies change; a male lion taking over a pack will generally kill off any cubs that are not his, mothers have been known to kill their young when in danger etc etc etc.

I guess you'd call it natural selection but we don't judge them for it, well, I don't.

My mother got pregnant with me when she was a schoolgirl and too young. Would her life have been easier if she'd gotten an abortion? Yes, I believe it would - I know that she probably wouldn't have ended up the mentally unbalanced man who knocked the shit out of her and the rest of us whenever he saw fit.

I think that if you are serious about wanting to help babies and children, then you have a choice - you can whine about women and their right to termination, the moral implications of that, but you're pissing into the wind - what's done is done.

If you want to make an actual difference, there are literally millions of REAL LIVE kids dying every single fucking day - go help them. Help the ones who DO have a life, the starving ones, the abused ones, the disadvantaged ones, the ones in war torn countries, the sick ones, the ones with junkie parents, the ones with no future, the ones destined to a shit life.

Educate them, feed them, cure them, save them - so they can stop the vicious cycle.

Give them a chance - go volunteer, demonstrate against cruelty, poverty, fascist regimes, sponsor a kid, donate some money, give up some of your precious time, become a doctor, an activist. These are the ones that really need your voice. Not the figurative ones.

There is so much that you/we can do if we'd just get off our arses and do it. It's all fine and well to sit here pontificating about the rights and wrongs but it gets us nowhere.

Don't waste your time banging your gums about this, it's pointless. Put that energy into something for the greater good.

Because by standing by, watching and doing nothing when children are dying, well, who am I to judge?


That was awesome.

I think more people. Not just pro lifers like I said before, should concentrate on the children already born. Such a shame there are so many unwanted children already without parents. Lets do something about that first.. You have all these people up in arms about fetuses but they won't adopt six year old Timmy in foster care. What the hell?

Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:49:14 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
I have always been pro-choice.

This is not because I am on the fence. I would never give my own up. I could not abort myself. But some people do not have a choice, or know they cannot provide for the baby, and choose to deal with it by aborting. That is not my choice. They have their own values, morals, opinion, experience, situational problems, etc. That I do not know about. And it is not my fate, but their own. I will not hate someone for doing so, but I will be disappointed.
Shylass
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:50:49 AM

Rank: Gingerbread Lover

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 3,862
Location: Wiggleton, United Kingdom
htowngirl1990 wrote:
I apologize for my behavior.


Thank you. It's alright to feel strongly. But we must be very careful how we voice those feelings if we wish to put them across effectively and be shown any sort of respect. Apologising at this point is both welcome and respectful, in my opinion, so again, thank you.


Mazza, that was an utterly top post.


Ut incepit fidelis, sic permanet.

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Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:41:00 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
sprite wrote:


a few points:

-not sure where you're getting your info about drugs. i was given a choice between advil and tylenol - i chose tylenol (reccomended dosage 1000mg) since i have issues with advil. quite honestly, it's really hard to get high on tylenol. i could easily get stronger stuff from pretty much anywhere else. hell, i am getting stronger stuff right now for a simple infection. i could get better stuff for faking a back problem or getting into therapy. if you don't mind, i'd like you to tell me what drugs these people are getting? i'm curious now. maybe i went to the wrong place. :)

-oh, and during a mispent part of my youth i ran with drug dealers - i know the stuff they can get - trust me, you're not going to get stronger stuff prescribed for you after an abortion. just not going to happen.

-we're not talking about necrophilia here, which is illegal (and doesn't result in pregnancy). we're talking about abortion. please stay on track.

-teenage girls will brag about pretty much anything. doesn't make it true. anyone in their teens who is bragging about having an abortion is 99% certain to be a liar.

-fetus are not yanked from the body. it's more of a gently sucking.

-i sleep just fine at night, having never "murdered an innocent life". i do appreciate your concern, however, so thank you for that.

- i know for a fact that there are depraved people out there. one of them spent close to a year abusing me before putting me into an ICU ward. another one of them raped me. if you somehow think that having an abortion, knowing nothing of my circumstances, puts me on the same level of them, then i kind of think less of you. sorry, but that's just how it is.

- also, if you are comparing me to Charles Manson or Hitler, i have to start to wonder if you're not a little naive yourself? btw, bringing up Hitler is usually a move of desperation when someone knows they are on shaky ground in an argument. tell you what, once i've had 6 millon abortions, you can bring it up again, until then, why don't you leave him out of the conversation - it just makes you look bad.

-Andrea Yates - that's a really interesting person to bring up in favor of NOT having an abortion. i guess it's better to drown your kids later on down the line then it is to abort them? obviously, she shouldn't have been having kids, don't you agree?

-once again, not sure what dog fighting has to do with the a woman's right to choose.

-or drive by shootings, for that matter, tho i know they do happen. seen a couple. not really something i enjoyed. still, they didn't happen during an abortion or have any bearing on my decision to have one.

-how are children dying at the hands of irresponsible parents? a fetus is not a child - that's been established scientifically as well as legally here in the US.

-actually, you're the one looking kind of foolish, but that's cool, sometimes i look kind of silly too. it happens. thing is, i usually realize it and acknowledge it before i go too far.

-once again, fetus, not baby. get it right. fetus does not equal baby. use wiki if you'd like, it's fairly simple. google is your friend as well.

-so, women don't deserve rights, is that what you're implying here? because that's the message i'm getting, but i don't want to make assumptions in case we're just having trouble communicating on the same level.

-you should try meditation or yoga or something - all that pent up rage isn't good for you. letting it go would make you a lot happier. :)







I agree that the pent up rage isn't good for me. I have my reasons for having the pent up rage.

I'm not implying that women don't deserve rights. My point got twisted from the beginning because I don't know how to get my point across without getting on another level. My point was that there should be guidelines for it. I'm not saying they shouldn't have the right, I'm saying that in certain cases it shouldn't be allowed.

I agree that I strayed from the original topic. But I wasn't comparing the act of abortion itself to those situations, I was comparing the fact that a small percentage of women do get abortions deliberately for the sake of things that happen during and after. Those weren't hypotheticals that I presented, they were instances where women I personally know, whom I considered friends had done it for those reasons. I can't give you citations or facts links because they didn't publish them on the internet, but it was well known throughout our high school back then and none of them denied it, they simply didn't give a shit what other people thought of their actions.

The hypotheticals I did give were in comparison to the depraved and fucked up tendencies that humans can and do have. They (the situations I compared the hypotheticals with) are rare cases, which is why I compared them to the situations I had become involved in through my friends.

My original post was stating my viewpoint on it and explaining why I felt that way. It got heated from there because several people quoted me telling me how wrong I was for having my opinion. Just because my opinion was different it doesn't mean I'm attacking your viewpoint.

I didn't give my main reason for opposing abortion simply because it was too personal for me to put into text at the time.

The prescription I know they give around here is similar to one they give you while you're in labor, similar to an epidural but not as strong. The name I believe is Demeral *not sure if that's how you spell it, but that's how it's pronounced. It is much stronger than Tylenol, but it's similar to Tylenol3 (Tylenol3 is Tylenol with codeine) but Demeral* is safe for people who are allergic to medications that contain codeine and codeine properties. It's a painkiller, sort of a muscle relaxer. I know it's hard for drug dealers around here to get it because several of them are friends of mine that I've known for several years, and I used to be a customer when I was a teenager back then. It's not hard to find drug dealers in the Houston area, most of them are pretty chill and tell you which pills/drugs they can get. It's just advertising their products and helps for recommendations and new customers.

Anyway back to the point..

I didn't say it should be completely illegal. I just think there should be guidelines. I don't think it's fair that two people who have the means to take the precautions, don't take them and end up just resorting to abortion simply because they didn't want to be responsible. It's not a matter or not being able to get birth control or condoms, it's about not feeling like it.

Two of my friends told me they don't use condoms because "it doesn't feel the same". This couple regularly have sex without using condoms, even though they can afford them. The first year of their relationship she got pregnant and decided on having an abortion, 6 months later she got pregnant again but decided to keep the baby. Her reason for getting an abortion the first time she got pregnant was because she didn't want to have to take care of a kid. Her reason to keep the baby the second time she got pregnant was because she hated herself for getting an abortion during her first pregnancy. She still doesn't have a job but she lives with the father's parents and they support her and the baby. I don't know if they still have unprotected sex, but I'm sure they're doing something different to prevent it from happening again. I know other couples who have gone through the same process, they don't want the baby during the first pregnancy so they decide to get an abortion. The second time around, or third or fourth they decide to keep the baby because they regretted their first decision. But they all did it the first time for the same reason, simply because they didn't want to take responsibility. That's when you have parents in their twenties with 3-4 or 5 kids.

I know you shouldn't believe everything on tv, but if you've ever watched Maury, Steve Wilkos, Jerry Springer, Bill Cunningham, etc. you would know that there are teens that are out of control and some that do have multiple abortions, some who just want babies when they're still 12-13, some who just want to have sex, things like that. Then there's Lifetime movies, which they say they're based on true events, but they may also be loosely based on true events, that have girls in the same situations. I realize there are those shows that make up and stage events, but if it never happened, where would they get the idea? Where there's smoke, there's gotta be fire or at least sparks, right?

A friend of mine in high school, she was a junior when I was a sophomore. She would often describe in detail of how her abortions went, the exact way they felt. She told me she liked the way she felt during the abortion which is why she kept getting them. She doesn't anymore because she's no longer able to get pregnant, but she is addicted to pain killers now. So she may have just been addicted to the anesthesia they gave her during the procedure, and that's why she said she enjoyed getting them. A few of her friends did it for the same reason she did.

Even when I provide facts, you automatically assume they are hypothetical situations. It's not hypothetical if it actually happened.

In Latin, fetus means "offspring", "bringing forth", or "hatching of young". In humans, the fetal stage begins at the start of the 11th week in gestational age, which is the 9th week after fertilization. During weeks 9-16 after fertilization, the fetus already has a heart, hands, feet, a brain and other organs. They are in the beginning stages, so they have minimal operation. So a fetus does seem to be a child if it has all of those things. Most women don't realize they're pregnant until around week 4-7 after fertilization, which is 6-9 weeks in gestation age. At that point, the head is formed and the arms and legs are in the beginning stages.

Can you see why some would assume that fetuses are just like children, no matter what stage it's at?

I'm not attacking your view of being pro-choice, I'm only trying to explain why I'm pro-life. I'm not trying to make you change your mind. I'm not saying you're a bad person for being pro-choice. The title of the post is "What's your opinion on abortion?" I have my opinion, and explained why I have my opinion. It turned into a debate when several people attacked my viewpoint and told me I was wrong for having my view on it. I reacted the way I did because I felt threatened by the way some of you replied to me when I wasn't even attacking your viewpoints.

I may look foolish for reacting the way I did, and I apologized for that. But how am I in the wrong for feeling the way I do? Why is the hostility towards me for expressing my opinion when the original poster asked for our opinions? I can only assume that some of those who "gave me what for" are left wingers, liberals perhaps? Since I was compared to a right wing nut job, that's the only conclusion I can come to. Actually I'm on the fence in that department, but what I'm getting to on that is that liberals have been portrayed to lead conservatives in, challenge their beliefs to get them riled up and make them look like a dumbass. That's what happened here, and I reacted like a typical right winger. The post asked for my opinion, then I was attacked for having that opinion, then you get angry at me and tell me to respect your opinion when you didn't even respect mine after I gave it. Seems like a trap to me, which liberals have been known to do. I only bring in the political stances because someone else brought it in calling me a right winger after misinterpreting the point I was trying to get across.

To be fair, I do wish gay couples could adopt children, and I wish kids who don't have a good home could be with people who do love children. I am not interested in exerting power over women, I am just saying that there should be guidelines to the system. What about the gay couples who want a surrogate parent to birth a child with their DNA? If the surrogate parent decided she didn't want to do it anymore, should she be allowed to get an abortion after making a deal to give birth to the child? I know it's a hypothetical situation, but it does happen.

What about late-term abortions? When the fetus is comprehensible and moves around, kicks, flips, stretches, when you see the hand pressing through from inside... What about the abortions women get during those stages of the pregnancies? Should there not be anything against doing that? Is it still not a child then? Should I not see it as a child even in those stages? When does a fetus get rewarded with acknowledgement of being alive while the mother is still pregnant? I'm not trying to be condescending, I really do want to know your opinions on that.


Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:16:04 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 7,216
Location: Your dirty fantasy
htowngirl1990 wrote:

The prescription I know they give around here is similar to one they give you while you're in labor, similar to an epidural but not as strong. The name I believe is Demeral *not sure if that's how you spell it, but that's how it's pronounced. It is much stronger than Tylenol, but it's similar to Tylenol3 (Tylenol3 is Tylenol with codeine) but Demeral* is safe for people who are allergic to medications that contain codeine and codeine properties. It's a painkiller, sort of a muscle relaxer. I know it's hard for drug dealers around here to get it because several of them are friends of mine that I've known for several years, and I used to be a customer when I was a teenager back then. It's not hard to find drug dealers in the Houston area, most of them are pretty chill and tell you which pills/drugs they can get. It's just advertising their products and helps for recommendations and new customers.



I just wanted to address the drug issue since that's the one I originally asked about.

During a procedure, you are given, by IV, sedation and analgesia drugs to make you groggy and relieve any cramping you might experience. This is elective by the way, some women prefer to take nothing. If you do choose sedation, the doctor is administering this to you. You don't feel 'high' in the way that a real drug addict would crave, and the procedure is over so fast that the sedation is very short lived. They don't give you prescriptions to go home with of anything - you are told to take some Midol or Tylenol if required (both over-the-counter). This happened with both me and Sprite (and we live in two different countries) so you have direct experience to back it up that this is the 'standard procedure'.

When an addict abuses prescription drugs, they are usually taking it in a form that is not intended - ie crushing it and snorting it or injecting it. Most pain-relievers are time-release and by altering the form it comes in, an addict can get that 'instant rush' or high by releasing all the therapeutic benefits at once instead of just swallowing the pill and allowing it to be absorbed into the bloodstream at the rate originally intended for use.

With Demerol as an IV sedative - the doctor is administering the dose himself. It's at a steady rate and you aren't getting super 'high' off it. Trust me, I've known my highs as well - and I can attest to the fact that this is nothing thrilling. You are also not going to get addicted to painkillers from the amount they give you during a five minute abortion procedure. And with no prescription to take home, I can't see the pros of IV sedation outweighing all the factors involved in an abortion - certainly none that would justify - even for an addict - going to that kind of trouble on purpose just for a very brief doctor-supervised sedation moment.

Yes, if you are an existing addict, you might enjoy any kind of sedation or any kind of drug as a by-product, but you aren't going to purposely get pregnant just for that reason. If you do - there are severe mental health issues at play that far outweigh any debate about abortion for that particular person. Oxy is actually stronger than Demerol (Demerol is just faster acting but not if Oxy is crushed and taken) and is readily available via dealers or sketchy doctors. And as another comparison - Demerol is weak, compared to morphine - it is .36 the strength. Demerol has been compared to being a slightly stronger version of Percocet. Regardless - both Perks and Oxys are available for a wide rage of faked pain illnesses at clinics throughout North America or through a dealer. Addicts are going to go this route because they want actual prescriptions that they can exploit - not a 5 minute moment in time.

If there are a handful of fucked up cases of addicts who would do this (and I'm not discounting it because anything is possible in this world), they are existing addicts with compounding mental health issues - way before any kind of abortion situation came into play. And these are the last people in the world that should be forced into incubating a human being for 9 months or being left to care for a baby that they have already damaged in utero. And no, just saying "well, get them off the drugs and make them be healthy until the baby is born" is not a logical or pragmatic solution to most of these cases. Based on your post, clearly you have some severely troubled friends that need professional help and I suspect that abortion is the least of their real issues.

Regardless - these people would make up an infinitesimally small number of actual abortion cases across the board and should not be used as a point to actually argue against abortion in the same way that violent gun-toting pro-lifers who would shoot doctors or clinic nurses should be representative of the pro-life movement. You can't take one drop of paint and try to paint an entire canvas with it.

I hope this was helpful.



scarlet
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 9:14:41 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/18/2011
Posts: 3,342
Location: United Kingdom
I hate writing something really long out then accidently clicking delete.
sprite
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 9:18:57 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 20,311
Location: My Tower, Spain
For the record, this stuff, my experiences, aren't easy to talk about in public. i didn't used to. for one, you just don't get into conversations at parties and bring up subjects like abortion, rape, or abuse. thing is, they are part of who i am, part of the experiences that made me into the girl i am today. i realized as one point that silence equals acceptance. i also realized that a lot of women have had similar experiences and it's nice to know you're not alone, even if you talk about them privately rather in public. so go out on a limb and i use my voice - yeah, i am only speaking for myself, but i hope that sharing my experiences helps someone else feel a little better about theirs too.

that's point one. point two is that i am perfectly capable of expressing my opinion and respecting someone elses. if you're pro-life, i respect that. i would never try to talk anyone out of feeling that way. all i ask for is, in return, respect my stance as well. you don't have to agree with it, but don't judge me for it. don't call me a murderer or whatever simply for making a choice that you wouldn't. i had very good reasons for what i did. i made the best decision i could in a bad situation. None of that matters, though. all that matters is that i choose to terminate a pregnancy. i choose to pursue a legal course of action. i choose not to let someone else dictate what i did with my own body. and despite that it hasn't always been an easy choice to live with, it's one that i wouldn't change if given the chance.

t's my body.

no one has the right to tell me what to do with my body just as i don't have the right to tell you what to do with yours. please respect that. that is all that i ask. if you don't, damn right i will fight back with words. as i said, i am always respectful towards differing opinions until someone crosses the line. after that, you've got no one to point a finger at except yourself.





Love not hate.
Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:00:16 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
Dancing_Doll wrote:


I just wanted to address the drug issue since that's the one I originally asked about.

During a procedure, you are given, by IV, sedation and analgesia drugs to make you groggy and relieve any cramping you might experience. This is elective by the way, some women prefer to take nothing. If you do choose sedation, the doctor is administering this to you. You don't feel 'high' in the way that a real drug addict would crave, and the procedure is over so fast that the sedation is very short lived. They don't give you prescriptions to go home with of anything - you are told to take some Midol or Tylenol if required (both over-the-counter). This happened with both me and Sprite (and we live in two different countries) so you have direct experience to back it up that this is the 'standard procedure'.

When an addict abuses prescription drugs, they are usually taking it in a form that is not intended - ie crushing it and snorting it or injecting it. Most pain-relievers are time-release and by altering the form it comes in, an addict can get that 'instant rush' or high by releasing all the therapeutic benefits at once instead of just swallowing the pill and allowing it to be absorbed into the bloodstream at the rate originally intended for use.

With Demerol as an IV sedative - the doctor is administering the dose himself. It's at a steady rate and you aren't getting super 'high' off it. Trust me, I've known my highs as well - and I can attest to the fact that this is nothing thrilling. You are also not going to get addicted to painkillers from the amount they give you during a five minute abortion procedure. And with no prescription to take home, I can't see the pros of IV sedation outweighing all the factors involved in an abortion - certainly none that would justify - even for an addict - going to that kind of trouble on purpose just for a very brief doctor-supervised sedation moment.

Yes, if you are an existing addict, you might enjoy any kind of sedation or any kind of drug as a by-product, but you aren't going to purposely get pregnant just for that reason. If you do - there are severe mental health issues at play that far outweigh any debate about abortion for that particular person. Oxy is actually stronger than Demerol (Demerol is just faster acting but not if Oxy is crushed and taken) and is readily available via dealers or sketchy doctors. And as another comparison - Demerol is weak, compared to morphine - it is .36 the strength. Demerol has been compared to being a slightly stronger version of Percocet. Regardless - both Perks and Oxys are available for a wide rage of faked pain illnesses at clinics throughout North America or through a dealer. Addicts are going to go this route because they want actual prescriptions that they can exploit - not a 5 minute moment in time.

If there are a handful of fucked up cases of addicts who would do this (and I'm not discounting it because anything is possible in this world), they are existing addicts with compounding mental health issues - way before any kind of abortion situation came into play. And these are the last people in the world that should be forced into incubating a human being for 9 months or being left to care for a baby that they have already damaged in utero. And no, just saying "well, get them off the drugs and make them be healthy until the baby is born" is not a logical or pragmatic solution to most of these cases. Based on your post, clearly you have some severely troubled friends that need professional help and I suspect that abortion is the least of their real issues.

Regardless - these people would make up an infinitesimally small number of actual abortion cases across the board and should not be used as a point to actually argue against abortion in the same way that violent gun-toting pro-lifers who would shoot doctors or clinic nurses should be representative of the pro-life movement. You can't take one drop of paint and try to paint an entire canvas with it.

I hope this was helpful.


I can't deny that my friend had quite a few things wrong with her, she was a drug addict whether it started before or after the abortions she did have. Whether she exaggerated the experience or not, she did it multiple times and spoke of the experience fondly. She was in the early part of her second trimester for each procedure she had, which I'm sure is a bit different than having one during the 1st trimester. -From what she said it sounded similar to the D&C I had after a miscarriage during the latter part of my second trimester.

Here is an honest question: is the abortion procedure anything like the procedure done after a woman has had a miscarriage?

Based on the dosage of Demerol, -thank you for correcting my spelling, it can be weak or it can be strong. I have taken it before, once when I shattered my kneecap, when I had a D&C after a miscarriage in the latter part of my second trimester, and after I had my daughter, which I had to have a c-section. When I shattered my kneecap, I was given 100mg pills, taking 1-2 every 8 hours. After I had both the D&C and my c-section I was given the same 100mg pills, taking 2 every six hours. It effects different people in different ways. It was very helpful with relieving the pain of getting a kneecap replaced. But with the D&C and my c-section they gave me Nurofen (400mg of ibuprofen) to take 2 each time I took 200mg of Demerol.

I don't personally know if the pain from an abortion, whether it's physical or mental, is anything like the pain of the D&C done after a miscarriage during the 2nd trimester or anything like the pain felt after a c-section. What I do know is that Demerol at the higher dosages can be addictive, and when you run out while you're still in pain, you're going to be pissed off and you're going to feel hella worse than you did before.

For the record, a D&C done during the latter part of 2nd trimester is very painful and very traumatic, as is pain felt after a c-section. Demerol was prescribed for that very reason. There were complications because I have high blood pressure problems, thanks to a family trait on both my mother's side and father's side. During the D&C, I did feel everything through it even though they sedated me. It's not something that I'd like to experience again. I described abortion in a previous post as yanking it from your body because that's what it felt like they did during my D&C. When it's during the latter part of the second trimester, there's a bigger fetus to remove than during a first trimester D&C.

I don't know the exact procedure of an abortion because I never sought to learn about it, but if it's anything like the D&C I experienced, it is painful. It could be because it was during the latter part of my second trimester, which I'm positive is different than removing a fetus when it's still a small size during the first trimester.

I don't know what you went through during your procedure, I only know of the trauma during my procedures. It's not something to take lightly, and if you knew what it was like to raise a fetus for almost six months in your stomach and have complications and have the fetus die inside you, the have it removed by people who are jaded to it, you would know exactly why I oppose abortion.
Liz
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:09:54 AM

Rank: Scarlet Seductress
Moderator

Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 7,234
Location: In the sweet shop, United Kingdom
Mazza wrote:
My thoughts on abortion are this...

As things currently stand, it is legal and relatively readily available in my country, The United Kingdom. As far as I know, there are no plans to change this.

In my opinion, if it IS legal, then we shouldn't really be judging people who exercise their rights to terminate a pregnancy. It is their legal right, it's that simple. Why should it be more acceptable for one woman to end her pregnancy because it's ectopic and might just kill her than for another who's been careless or unlucky enough to get pregnant? The consequences of her seeing that pregnancy to full term will have life long consequences for her and the baby, whether she keeps the child or abandons it or gives it up for adoption. Her decision to end her pregnancy is no less valid than the other woman's.

It doesn't make any difference.

Any woman's decision to end a pregnancy is her's and her's alone. If she is lucky enough to be in a position where she has a supportive partner, friends, family to help her through it, well, that's better, you need strong people around you, love and support, if you're going to cope, whether that's with a baby or with a voided womb from miscarriage or termination.

Loss. To lose a child is a loss, no matter the circumstances and even in situations where a woman has "foolishly" gotten herself pregnant and had an abortion, there is fear and there is loss. What if she can't conceive again, what if she keeps it? What if, what if, what if? How many older woman have found themselves pregnant when they thought their childbearing years were behind them? What if they couldn't bear the thought of the toll it would have on their body, the years of looking after an infant? Who are we to pour scorn on their decision not to go through that again?

How many woman who have a termination when they are young, won't imagine what their child would have become, what age they would be now, how their life would have been had they not taken the decision they did? Not many.

In nature, female animals often simultaneously abort their young, infants are often culled when hierarchies change; a male lion taking over a pack will generally kill off any cubs that are not his, mothers have been known to kill their young when in danger etc etc etc.

I guess you'd call it natural selection but we don't judge them for it, well, I don't.

My mother got pregnant with me when she was a schoolgirl and too young. Would her life have been easier if she'd gotten an abortion? Yes, I believe it would - I know that she probably wouldn't have ended up the mentally unbalanced man who knocked the shit out of her and the rest of us whenever he saw fit.

I think that if you are serious about wanting to help babies and children, then you have a choice - you can whine about women and their right to termination, the moral implications of that, but you're pissing into the wind - what's done is done.

If you want to make an actual difference, there are literally millions of REAL LIVE kids dying every single fucking day - go help them. Help the ones who DO have a life, the starving ones, the abused ones, the disadvantaged ones, the ones in war torn countries, the sick ones, the ones with junkie parents, the ones with no future, the ones destined to a shit life.

Educate them, feed them, cure them, save them - so they can stop the vicious cycle.

Give them a chance - go volunteer, demonstrate against cruelty, poverty, fascist regimes, sponsor a kid, donate some money, give up some of your precious time, become a doctor, an activist. These are the ones that really need your voice. Not the figurative ones.

There is so much that you/we can do if we'd just get off our arses and do it. It's all fine and well to sit here pontificating about the rights and wrongs but it gets us nowhere.

Don't waste your time banging your gums about this, it's pointless. Put that energy into something for the greater good.

Because by standing by, watching and doing nothing when children are dying, well, who am I to judge?


One of the best posts I've read on the forums in a long time.
Well done, Maz.



Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:41:16 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
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htowngirl1990 wrote:


I can't deny that my friend had quite a few things wrong with her, she was a drug addict whether it started before or after the abortions she did have. Whether she exaggerated the experience or not, she did it multiple times and spoke of the experience fondly. She was in the early part of her second trimester for each procedure she had, which I'm sure is a bit different than having one during the 1st trimester. -From what she said it sounded similar to the D&C I had after a miscarriage during the latter part of my second trimester.

Here is an honest question: is the abortion procedure anything like the procedure done after a woman has had a miscarriage?

Based on the dosage of Demerol, -thank you for correcting my spelling, it can be weak or it can be strong. I have taken it before, once when I shattered my kneecap, when I had a D&C after a miscarriage in the latter part of my second trimester, and after I had my daughter, which I had to have a c-section. When I shattered my kneecap, I was given 100mg pills, taking 1-2 every 8 hours. After I had both the D&C and my c-section I was given the same 100mg pills, taking 2 every six hours. It effects different people in different ways. It was very helpful with relieving the pain of getting a kneecap replaced. But with the D&C and my c-section they gave me Nurofen (400mg of ibuprofen) to take 2 each time I took 200mg of Demerol.

I don't personally know if the pain from an abortion, whether it's physical or mental, is anything like the pain of the D&C done after a miscarriage during the 2nd trimester or anything like the pain felt after a c-section. What I do know is that Demerol at the higher dosages can be addictive, and when you run out while you're still in pain, you're going to be pissed off and you're going to feel hella worse than you did before.

For the record, a D&C done during the latter part of 2nd trimester is very painful and very traumatic, as is pain felt after a c-section. Demerol was prescribed for that very reason. There were complications because I have high blood pressure problems, thanks to a family trait on both my mother's side and father's side. During the D&C, I did feel everything through it even though they sedated me. It's not something that I'd like to experience again. I described abortion in a previous post as yanking it from your body because that's what it felt like they did during my D&C. When it's during the latter part of the second trimester, there's a bigger fetus to remove than during a first trimester D&C.

I don't know the exact procedure of an abortion because I never sought to learn about it, but if it's anything like the D&C I experienced, it is painful. It could be because it was during the latter part of my second trimester, which I'm positive is different than removing a fetus when it's still a small size during the first trimester.

I don't know what you went through during your procedure, I only know of the trauma during my procedures. It's not something to take lightly, and if you knew what it was like to raise a fetus for almost six months in your stomach and have complications and have the fetus die inside you, the have it removed by people who are jaded to it, you would know exactly why I oppose abortion.


88% of the abortions in the US are done in the first 12-13 weeks. I believe the legal cut off varies from country to country, however later term abortion (eg. due to serious fetal abnormalities) can be done under special permission, and I believe in some cases legal sign-offs have to be involved. That's really not the norm though, but yeah, in those late -term situations that are the in minority, I'm sure stronger pain meds are involved.

I'm sorry for your experience and imagine that must have been extremely traumatic for many reasons. In those cases, labour is actually induced and I assume there is some kind of 'delivery' which would account for the yanking/pain involved, but your friends would not have been going through anything like that if they went to a regular clinic that performs standard first trimester abortions (that account for that 88%).

I hate talking about my own experience because it was very emotionally traumatic for me (and still is). Mine was a birth control pill failure and I did not have supportive resources at all and was in a very horrible relationship where there was added pressure to terminate and a few other things I won't get into. What I can't stand is when people say chastising things like "it's not something to be taken lightly" as though assuming that anyone who chooses this is totally casual and frivolous about it and can't wait to get that first stamp on their abortion card and get a lollipop. Yes, there are emotional scars that will never heal. Would I ever do it again? Nope. Couldn't handle it twice. What effect it had on me, however, is a very individual experience, as it is for every woman. And I firmly believe that every woman should have the option to make the best choice for herself in her situation. It will be more emotionally traumatic for some than for others. There are a plethora of complicated unique factors to be considered that must remain outside the scope of the courts. It can't be "ok for some but not for all". The current stance taken is based on the stage of the fetus, allowing it to be as objective a cut-off point as possible for the vast majority of cases. The option should always be available, within legal/ethical guidelines. I don't think anyone is advocating late stage abortions because they are illegal.

As far as actual physical pain goes - it was very minimal. To be honest, it was like a slightly more invasive pap-smear. It's just a slim tubal suction thing that's used. It takes about a minute. I didn't feel much and just had light cramping afterward. I can't compare it to a miscarriage because I haven't had one. Obviously anything where a pregnancy is further along is going to be more painful. And I'm sure a c-section is no picnic, but that's a whole other ballgame. I know any painkiller is addictive, but addiction is a separate issue from abortion. I'm just saying that for those 88% first trimester terminations, prescriptions for painkillers aren't handed out, and the administration of demerol (if used at all) is very brief and really doesn't produce any kind of 'fun' or 'addictive' high on its own.

It's important to really know the facts and be able to separate one's own emotional "this is right or wrong for me" with the legal issues of allowing all women to have the option of making the best choice for themselves, based on their own individual circumstances and outlook. It's vitally important to remember that pro-choice isn't 'pro-abortion' - it's pro-choice.


Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:32:26 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
I also wanted to say that pro-life isn't the same as "anti-choice", as someone stated before. I do want women to have the choice, but in certain circumstances.

But for the women who get abortions simply because they didn't feel like using protection when they could have, I think they should be required to carry to term, then decide what to do with the child; whether it be to keep the child or give it to a couple who can't have children.

Pregnancy can be traumatic for a teenager, I know this. But the procedures to remove the fetus, whether the fetus is still alive or not, can be more traumatic. It's not something that teenagers should experience. Every experience is different though. If a woman is able to use protection but chooses not to, and has the means to care for a child but doesn't want to, and she thinks "Oh well, I'll just get an abortion if I end up pregnant" I don't think that should be acceptable, I think she should have to live with the consequences of her actions. I don't think a fetus should suffer just because she was being irresponsible when she has the means to use protection and also has the means to care for a child.

I am not judging anyone for getting an abortion. I am not trying to change your mind on the matter. I'm not trying to force you to keep an unwanted baby. I'm simply stating my opinion.

I don't see it as a matter of women having rights or not, it's about taking responsibility for irresponsible actions. It's not about taking away rights from women all willy nilly, it's about setting guidelines for situations.

Late term abortion isn't illegal in all states or all countries. Some countries don't have a limit on when it can be performed. Late Termination of Pregnancy - Wiki

When I said "it's not something to be taken lightly", I wasn't assuming people who choose to do it were casual or frivolous about it. I was referring to the amount of pain endured during the procedure, as in the pain endured shouldn't be taken lightly.

My friend very well may have had complications and needed to have the abortions, but the way she talked about it implied that she did it of her own volition. If she needed the procedure done, then I'm glad she was able to get it, but if she chose to do it for the sake of getting the drugs then I think she shouldn't have been able to get it. There's a big difference when the procedure is necessary and when procedure is a casual choice in favor of the outcome. She seemed to have several marbles loose in her head. Being around her family when I would visit her was enough for me to think she may have gone through a lot of abuse and needed the drugs as a way to escape her family situation. In that case, I'm glad she didn't have the babies simply because babies shouldn't be subjected to abusive situations.

This is why I think there should be guidelines for it. I don't think that just any woman should get an abortion, mainly in cases where the pregnancy was result of irresponsibility and carelessness. I just don't believe that the fetus should have to suffer just because a woman didn't care enough to use protection when she could have and decided to abort it simply because she didn't want a kid when she knew exactly what could happen and did it anyway. In those circumstances, it shouldn't be allowed. The woman should carry to term, then decide what to do.

My personal experience was very traumatic and it was very hard for me to bring forth. Sprite's courage in speaking about her experience is what encouraged me to speak of mine. I know it's traumatic, and each experience is different. I just think that the fetus should have rights as well, especially in those later stages.

To Sprite: I am deeply sorry that you had to go through all of that. I do know the pain you've endured. Abuse and assault are things that I have a hard time talking about because of the things I've been through. It's extremely traumatic and I support the decision you made.

This was a very hot topic for me, and in hind sight I shouldn't have come to this post after the weekend I've had. I'm not trying to excuse my behavior, but stress and trauma were the causes for me reacting the way I did after the replies to my first post.
Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:45:20 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
My main complaint is that the those of the far right progressives and the liberal left who yell the loudest for abortions are also the ones who yell the loudest against regulations and safety. In other words they are not interested in a woman's rights or personnel problems. They don't come out against the men responsible (and yes it takes a male sperm to make a child) and that they should take responsibility money wise as well as medical and emotional. To them safe sex isn't considered or a girl's or woman's age and health. Any building where an operation of any type is to be done, should be regulated and safe and the doctors and nurses trained and meet the same laws that any doctor or nurse does.

Of course there are legal conditions that describe "unwanted pregancy" under the law and that these cases have a moral, if touchy legal need for abortion. But men and women who have no concern about their own bodies or for the life they may be creating and just think well, I'll have unsafe sex and if the woman gets knocked up she can go to some shop and have some quak work on her and if a fetus is past a certain point in time or the woman dies in the process so what.

It takes two to make a child and it should take two to make the decision (and if the girl is underage, her parents have a responsibility and a right to be included in the matter as well as the parents of the boy.) (I have never been a "fan" of a woman becoming a test tube mother. There are children who need a home and adoption should be easier, again following laws and regulations for the safety of the child). And "safe" sex should be taught to children. But not at a redickless age in grade school, but when the child is older in middle school and high school and parents are also responsible for their children and yes they need to have "the talk".

When talking of safe sex, I don't mean like some fools think, well just put out machines with rubbers and the day after pill and let them have sex without any concern or responsibility. That's like saying put up machines with guns and bullets and let them go shooting without any concern. Teach them "why" they must use the pill, etc. What happens when a child is created. Teach them what familes are for and marriage. There is a reason why it takes a male and female to make a child and to raise one. It's nature. Ask any single mom or dad how hard it is to be a single parent. It can be done, but it isn't easy.

I have known women that have had adortions. Each had their reason and it wasn't an easy decission to any of them. Some where, I am sorry to say, just stupid and got themselves knocked up more than once without any concern. On the other end of the scale are the women who have more than one child without any thought of getting married or at least living with the man responsible and really just use the children like cattle to get a government check for breeding them. These are women who should get an abortion and maybe "fixed".

And those who holler the loudest against abortion do not put their money where their mouth is. If they want to help with a girl who is in "trouble" either help her with aide to keep and raise the child or adopt the child or help find it a home.

Mainly, I do not belive a child should be created who is unwanted or whol may have to have their life ended before it begins. I hate China's corrupt government, but maybe their rule of one child is something that the world will have to consider someday. But that is another subject.
sprite
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:30:47 PM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 20,311
Location: My Tower, Spain
htowngirl1990 wrote:
I also wanted to say that pro-life isn't the same as "anti-choice", as someone stated before. I do want women to have the choice, but in certain circumstances.

But for the women who get abortions simply because they didn't feel like using protection when they could have, I think they should be required to carry to term, then decide what to do with the child; whether it be to keep the child or give it to a couple who can't have children.

Pregnancy can be traumatic for a teenager, I know this. But the procedures to remove the fetus, whether the fetus is still alive or not, can be more traumatic. It's not something that teenagers should experience. Every experience is different though. If a woman is able to use protection but chooses not to, and has the means to care for a child but doesn't want to, and she thinks "Oh well, I'll just get an abortion if I end up pregnant" I don't think that should be acceptable, I think she should have to live with the consequences of her actions. I don't think a fetus should suffer just because she was being irresponsible when she has the means to use protection and also has the means to care for a child.

I am not judging anyone for getting an abortion. I am not trying to change your mind on the matter. I'm not trying to force you to keep an unwanted baby. I'm simply stating my opinion.

I don't see it as a matter of women having rights or not, it's about taking responsibility for irresponsible actions. It's not about taking away rights from women all willy nilly, it's about setting guidelines for situations.

Late term abortion isn't illegal in all states or all countries. Some countries don't have a limit on when it can be performed. Late Termination of Pregnancy - Wiki

When I said "it's not something to be taken lightly", I wasn't assuming people who choose to do it were casual or frivolous about it. I was referring to the amount of pain endured during the procedure, as in the pain endured shouldn't be taken lightly.

My friend very well may have had complications and needed to have the abortions, but the way she talked about it implied that she did it of her own volition. If she needed the procedure done, then I'm glad she was able to get it, but if she chose to do it for the sake of getting the drugs then I think she shouldn't have been able to get it. There's a big difference when the procedure is necessary and when procedure is a casual choice in favor of the outcome. She seemed to have several marbles loose in her head. Being around her family when I would visit her was enough for me to think she may have gone through a lot of abuse and needed the drugs as a way to escape her family situation. In that case, I'm glad she didn't have the babies simply because babies shouldn't be subjected to abusive situations.

This is why I think there should be guidelines for it. I don't think that just any woman should get an abortion, mainly in cases where the pregnancy was result of irresponsibility and carelessness. I just don't believe that the fetus should have to suffer just because a woman didn't care enough to use protection when she could have and decided to abort it simply because she didn't want a kid when she knew exactly what could happen and did it anyway. In those circumstances, it shouldn't be allowed. The woman should carry to term, then decide what to do.

My personal experience was very traumatic and it was very hard for me to bring forth. Sprite's courage in speaking about her experience is what encouraged me to speak of mine. I know it's traumatic, and each experience is different. I just think that the fetus should have rights as well, especially in those later stages.

To Sprite: I am deeply sorry that you had to go through all of that. I do know the pain you've endured. Abuse and assault are things that I have a hard time talking about because of the things I've been through. It's extremely traumatic and I support the decision you made.

This was a very hot topic for me, and in hind sight I shouldn't have come to this post after the weekend I've had. I'm not trying to excuse my behavior, but stress and trauma were the causes for me reacting the way I did after the replies to my first post.


a couple of things i'd like to make clear. one, my pregnancy was NOT the result of abuse or rape. those are separate issues, but having had to go through the fear of getting pregnant from a rape ( i was NOT on BC at the time, since i'm in a strictly lesbian relationship) was horrifying. i now, despite that i do not have sexual relations with men anymore, take BC just in case it happens again - sad, but true.

yeah, i do feel for women who want babies and can't have them, or have miscarried, or something similar. i have never miscarried and i don't know what it feels like, though i imagine it's not something that you get over anytime soon. that all said, those are their experiences, not mine. while they garner my sympathy, they shouldn't effect my own choices. Doll said that she would never go thru that again. i probably would, given my circumstances. hard to say. i think it would be a much harder choice to make after going thru it once.

i was impregnanted while using a condom. part of it was that we were pretty messed up - it was new years eve. i'd taken a lot of drugs that night - there was a good chance, in my mind, that any fetus i carried to term would suffer for it. that was just part of it, but it was a large concern.

once again, you can't make the law different because someone decided that girl A was being irresponsible and HAS to carry to term while girl B wasn't and should be allowed to abort. the law has to apply equally, regardless of the circumstances. who makes that decision and who makes sure that it is applied equally? what happens when two judges rule differently on two exact same cases? i certainly don't want to be the girl who walks into the room and is told that, despite my wishes, i was doing coke that night and therefore, have to give birth - maybe, if i'm really the irresponsible, i'll keep doing coke during the next 8 months. not really a pretty outcome. here, got a baby for you, yeah, he's mentally handicapped - i wanted to abort him, but i was allowed to.

think of it this way - someone robs a store at gun point, he's arrested and jailed because he did it for drug money. another guy robs a store at gun point. he did it cause his family was starving and his little girl needed an operation. he's not convicted and gets to keep the money he stole. see my point there? the law, by definition, HAS to treat everyone EQUALLY or it fails. not an opinion, a fact.

girl, seriously, if someone was giving you shit about not wanting to get an abortion, regardless of the reasons, i'd stand up for your rights. i totally would tell them to back off. that's none of their business. thing is, gotta go both ways. it's none of anybody else's if i decide to get one. simple as that. all i ask is that people respect that and give me a safe, clean, healthy way of doing it - shutting down planned parenthood only takes away means to get BC so you don't get pregnant in the first place and sends desperate girls into desperate dangerous methods of aborting.

sadly, in your own state, they recently pushed thru laws that would, in effect, close down most of the legal abortion clinics, from 42 down to 6, if i recall the numbers. notice i said "legal". i was lucky. i was able to walk into a sanctioned clinic and have it done. it was, for all that it could be, a pleasant experience. the staff was really nice, i didn't get haselled too much going in, and i came out with mild cramp that lasted a day or so. i also cried for the rest of the day - i was one of the lucky ones, tho - my partner was with me and helped me thru it. a lot of girls have to do this on their own, too ashamed by the attitudes of others to ask for help from friends or family, the father nowhere in sight.

does it still effect me? yep, tho not as harshly as others. i remember the anniversary and i get a little sad, usually have a good cry, and then, i'm ok. still shakes me up to talk about it here, too, but like i said, people need to know that they're not alone, that others have gone thru it, good people, and that we understand. maybe, if there is some sort of god plan, maybe part of it is that someone like me should have gone thru some of the things i've gone thru in order to help someone else go thru it too. i know i've leaned on others here with similiar experiences and it's helped me.

seriously girl, i don't wish you any ill will, but please, i get a little uptight about people taking away my decisions about what to do with my own body - it's been abused by enough people that i'm pretty touchy about it, ya know? :)



Love not hate.
malebox
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:25:05 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/5/2009
Posts: 315
Location: United States
In simplest terms abortion is the pencil's eraser.
scarlet
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:45:58 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 12/18/2011
Posts: 3,342
Location: United Kingdom
htowngirl1990 wrote:

I don't know what you went through during your procedure, I only know of the trauma during my procedures. It's not something to take lightly, and if you knew what it was like to raise a fetus for almost six months in your stomach and have complications and have the fetus die inside you, the have it removed by people who are jaded to it, you would know exactly why I oppose abortion.


I am pro choice. I'll just say that to begin with so it's out of the way.

Firstly I have to say I am sorry you have to go through it all, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I come from a stand point of also having a late miscarriage/still born. I was 23 weeks and 4 days I think so it was in the middle of being called a miscarriage and stillborn. The lingo didn't really matter to me I just knew my babies had died. I know it is not something easy to get over at all. It does effect your whole life for a long time. I recently had the anniversary and every year it gets me. I'll give a little background, as much as I do actually hate to talk about it, so you know I'm coming from the same place. I miscarried due to a fall which meant that the placenta detached and unfortunely they died. I didn't go through a d/c like you, I was put into labour and delivered them both naturally. It was probably the most tragic day of me and my husbands life.

However I have also more recently had an abortion which was also a tragic time in our life. The pregnancy was not planned, in fact known of them have been (my husband has super sperm that doesn't get stopped by, multiple, conception). Anyway I had the suction abortion like DD because that was the stage I was in my pregnancy. If you want to know more about other forms of abortion the nhs is a great site. the link is here , as it's clearer than me rewriting it in here. I had a very uncomfortable experience as mine was done on local rather than general. However I have to say that the pain killers were almost nothingness.

In my eyes mine and others miscarriage are completely different to mine and others abortion. My miscarried was a wanted pregnancy, I had nested, I was overjoyed at having more children. However when it came to my last pregnancy and the termination my situation was completely different. I'm not going to go into the situation but I know the difference between the two, because I have the empathy and experience.

Coming back to you point now I have done the long background. I can somewhat see your point about being oppose to abortion due to the lose of a baby. But I think the key difference is that your pregnancy was wanted, not all pregnancies are for so many reasons, or all able to continue.

htowngirl1990 wrote:
This is why I think there should be guidelines for it. I don't think that just any woman should get an abortion, mainly in cases where the pregnancy was result of irresponsibility and carelessness. I just don't believe that the fetus should have to suffer just because a woman didn't care enough to use protection when she could have and decided to abort it simply because she didn't want a kid when she knew exactly what could happen and did )it anyway.


By putting limitation on what is other decide is wrong in my book. I think every man woman and child has the right to control there body. Where it be from pregnancy or domestic abuse etc, it is all the right to control your own body. Yes there is a foetus involved, and yes that foetus will not be able to grow into a person, but I don't think the right of a foetus outweighs the life of the mother or parents. And the fact that you say that they shouldn't be allowed makes it sounds like a slap on the wrist, 'You have been a naughty girl, now you must face the punishment'.


My other point is where is the line drawn. If you go back to the days when abortion was outlawed. You will see hide levels of suicide and death by back street doctors. Even in my native Ireland, the laws around abortion have only just been relaxed to allow mothers with medical conditions to legally end a pregnancy if her life is in danger. I mean just changed. So mental problems aren't a legal reason to end a pregnancy over there, as well as many other countries like chile.

For example a woman that maybe once doesn't use conception and falls pregnant should that mean, given they have already opened themselves up to sexual diseases, that they also can't be allowed an abortion? Where is the freedom to it all? To me it's like saying because someone has done drugs once that they aren't allowed to go to rehab. They started taking them knowing the addiction and the effect it would have on their body. Why should they be allowed treatment?

I'm not attacking you or your view. I just want to know were you think the limit is? I can't see a way of making a limit that doesn't negatively effect the human rights of the mother.
Guest
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:58:09 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 819,713
sprite wrote:


a couple of things i'd like to make clear. one, my pregnancy was NOT the result of abuse or rape. those are separate issues, but having had to go through the fear of getting pregnant from a rape ( i was NOT on BC at the time, since i'm in a strictly lesbian relationship) was horrifying. i now, despite that i do not have sexual relations with men anymore, take BC just in case it happens again - sad, but true.

yeah, i do feel for women who want babies and can't have them, or have miscarried, or something similar. i have never miscarried and i don't know what it feels like, though i imagine it's not something that you get over anytime soon. that all said, those are their experiences, not mine. while they garner my sympathy, they shouldn't effect my own choices. Doll said that she would never go thru that again. i probably would, given my circumstances. hard to say. i think it would be a much harder choice to make after going thru it once.

i was impregnanted while using a condom. part of it was that we were pretty messed up - it was new years eve. i'd taken a lot of drugs that night - there was a good chance, in my mind, that any fetus i carried to term would suffer for it. that was just part of it, but it was a large concern.

once again, you can't make the law different because someone decided that girl A was being irresponsible and HAS to carry to term while girl B wasn't and should be allowed to abort. the law has to apply equally, regardless of the circumstances. who makes that decision and who makes sure that it is applied equally? what happens when two judges rule differently on two exact same cases? i certainly don't want to be the girl who walks into the room and is told that, despite my wishes, i was doing coke that night and therefore, have to give birth - maybe, if i'm really the irresponsible, i'll keep doing coke during the next 8 months. not really a pretty outcome. here, got a baby for you, yeah, he's mentally handicapped - i wanted to abort him, but i was allowed to.

think of it this way - someone robs a store at gun point, he's arrested and jailed because he did it for drug money. another guy robs a store at gun point. he did it cause his family was starving and his little girl needed an operation. he's not convicted and gets to keep the money he stole. see my point there? the law, by definition, HAS to treat everyone EQUALLY or it fails. not an opinion, a fact.

girl, seriously, if someone was giving you shit about not wanting to get an abortion, regardless of the reasons, i'd stand up for your rights. i totally would tell them to back off. that's none of their business. thing is, gotta go both ways. it's none of anybody else's if i decide to get one. simple as that. all i ask is that people respect that and give me a safe, clean, healthy way of doing it - shutting down planned parenthood only takes away means to get BC so you don't get pregnant in the first place and sends desperate girls into desperate dangerous methods of aborting.

sadly, in your own state, they recently pushed thru laws that would, in effect, close down most of the legal abortion clinics, from 42 down to 6, if i recall the numbers. notice i said "legal". i was lucky. i was able to walk into a sanctioned clinic and have it done. it was, for all that it could be, a pleasant experience. the staff was really nice, i didn't get haselled too much going in, and i came out with mild cramp that lasted a day or so. i also cried for the rest of the day - i was one of the lucky ones, tho - my partner was with me and helped me thru it. a lot of girls have to do this on their own, too ashamed by the attitudes of others to ask for help from friends or family, the father nowhere in sight.

does it still effect me? yep, tho not as harshly as others. i remember the anniversary and i get a little sad, usually have a good cry, and then, i'm ok. still shakes me up to talk about it here, too, but like i said, people need to know that they're not alone, that others have gone thru it, good people, and that we understand. maybe, if there is some sort of god plan, maybe part of it is that someone like me should have gone thru some of the things i've gone thru in order to help someone else go thru it too. i know i've leaned on others here with similiar experiences and it's helped me.

seriously girl, i don't wish you any ill will, but please, i get a little uptight about people taking away my decisions about what to do with my own body - it's been abused by enough people that i'm pretty touchy about it, ya know? :)


I know that my state recently passed measures to close down the abortion clinics. But Texas can't win either way with it. Several years ago when we were supporting women and their abortion rights, we were demonized and called murderers. Now we're trying to cut down on the abortion rate and we're still demonized but now we're called woman haters. I hate to say this, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If it's not one thing, it's another. Double standards are always used on Texas' decision for anything.

I do support Planned Parenthood, but if women aren't going to use the contraceptives, what's the fucking point? If men aren't going to use condoms, women shouldn't have sex with them. I know that's not the case each time, but someone has to be responsible.

Your case was different, even though there were drugs involved you did use a condom, which is responsible. You can't be punished because of a broken condom. Hell I'm the result of a broken condom, as is my younger brother and one of my older sisters. It was the right decision for you to choose abortion. My parent decided against abortion because even though it was going to be tough to support more children, they believed they would be able to, through blind faith in God.

In total, my parents have 9 children. I'm second to the youngest, at 22. My younger brother is 21. My oldest brother is 36. My parents are both 51, my dad had his first child with his now-ex-wife when he was 15. He had four children with her before she took the kids and ran off while he was at work. She didn't just leave the city, she went halfway across the country with the kids without telling him anything. He didn't see those kids until the oldest was 19, he went 15 years without seeing four of his children. He didn't let it stifle his efforts as a father to my mom's daughter from her previous relationship or to his other four children he had with my mom. He was ordered to pay back-child support just shortly before the oldest turned 18. He's been paying it for several years even though the oldest is in his 30's, but that's how the law goes for child support. It takes away from the money that's needed to support us even still today. They take money from his check every two weeks, and the money isn't going towards any of his children, it's just going to his ex wife who uses the money to support her own drug addiction.

Maybe that was delving a little too deep, but I do understand your decision in that case. A broken condom isn't the result of being irresponsible. Shit happens.

My main concern for the guidelines on it for the stages of pregnancy at which the abortions are performed. When do you decide that it's not acceptable to kill a fetus? Which of these stages does a fetus get considered as alive?


Shouldn't there be a point in the pregnancy where they shouldn't be allowed to back out? I know there's special circumstances, where the mother could die if she carries to term, or if there's a chance of it being mentally retarded, seriously deformed, exposed to abuse or neglect, if they won't be cared for or the mother won't be able to support the child for whatever reason. At a certain point it would be safer to carry to term and put the kid up for adoption than to abort the baby.

As for laws being fair towards everyone, that's not always the case. IF laws were fair to everyone we wouldn't have the need for separate women's rights and different racial laws. The law isn't unbiased. But that is for a different thread on laws.

I'm not saying women shouldn't be able to get them, just that there should be guidelines. If I could be there to write each circumstance out I would, and I would personally tend to each case. Not because I want to exert my power over them, but just to make sure that the best action is taken for each case.

I don't approve of what my state decided, but maybe if you look at it this way: if abortions aren't so readily available, maybe it would give women the incentive to have safe sex. I already have a hard time trying to get birth control, and being that a lot of men refuse to wear condoms, I choose to abstain from sex. I don't want anymore children. Being a single mother is a very hard job. Even harder still that I can't do anything career wise until she starts school, and it's hard on the heart as well when most men won't get with a woman who has a child. Did I choose to get pregnant? No, I didn't, I wasn't even willing when she was conceived. Did I want to keep the child? No, I didn't. But I did keep her. Sometimes I regret it, and sometimes I'm grateful I kept her.

There's pros and cons to my decision, but I wasn't thinking about myself, I was thinking about the life inside me that I, unfortunately, was a part in making. It's hard to think of how she was conceived, and it haunts me every day. But I chose to accept responsibility for what actions led to me becoming pregnant. Even though I support women who want to get an abortion after conceiving a child the same way I did, I couldn't go through it. I couldn't kill a fetus after losing one. They were both conceived the same way, just by different people. Unfortunately you can't prove that your boyfriend raped you. It's your word against the fact that you're in a relationship with him. It makes me question whether screaming 'no' at the top of your lungs and trying desperately to get away during the entire process that your boyfriend is forcefully having sex with you is considered rape or not. Is it still considered rape then, even if you're in a relationship? Unfortunately the cops in the area that I tried to report it to told me that it wasn't considered rape since I was in a relationship with him. Being told that you weren't raped after your boyfriend forces himself on you, it kinda fucks with your head. And I have to live with the decision I made of keeping the child that was produced. Even if I had the chance to get an abortion, I wouldn't because I don't have the heart to do it. Not after feeling one alive inside me and eventually stop moving, that's the worst feeling I've ever experienced; the feeling of something literally dying inside me. I couldn't go through it again.
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