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Transgendered child banned from using girls' restroom at school. Options · View
PrincessC
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:56:50 PM

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I think schools should have gender neutral bathrooms like most universities do. Gender issues can be very damaging to the children because if they don't fit into the narrow minded binarism of gender they can't even have peace in a bathroom which is shocking. Just because the child is young does not mean that the child isn't aware if the gender he/she prefers.

People seem to have a blind spot when it comes to gender and the choice of what gender role one would like, but it is common and humans and especially children shouldn't have to suffer because society says there are only two ways to be.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"
dpw
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:16:28 PM

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JasonM wrote:


So because of other peoples close mindedness, she should be 'reprogrammed' to be other that what she believes herself to be?

Something will not become acceptable until it's out there. Putting Coy in the spotlight may start changing some peoples minds about what is 'normal'. Yes, she's going to suffer taunts, hatred and meanness in the future, but with parents like hers and the support of others (like us) she'll get through it.

Side note, the founder of the most noted gay reversion therapy group has resigned and apologized to all the gay he hurt over the years in trying to get them to change. Attempting to reprogram someone to be other than what they are is more damaging than anything else. He finally 'got it', when will others? Some, maybe never, but at least the attempt must be made.

I'll take the last point first if I may. I am fully aware that reversion therapy doesn't work neither does aversion therapy(electric or otherwise) nor does hypnosis, I know all this because I am gay.
The point I am making is the parents have twisted the childs gender identity through negative gender role play. Dress a boy as a girl and treat him as such from the age 18 months and he will assume that gender, by 4yrs because he has identified himself as female he becomes aware that his body is different to other girls, therefore "is wrong". This would have been avoided with gender role affirmation, a visit to a child psychologist would have confirmed this. As it is that child might suffer deep trauma in the coming years and during or after puberty with all the hormonal changes he will have may lead to huge psychological problems. Depression, self harm and suicide are all common among troubled teenagers, are the parents ready for this. Parents are meant to protect their children not set them up to be a target for all to take a shot at. In my view those parents have not only failed to protect him, they have put him in harms way!
By the way we have had a similar case in England but the is 14yrs, old enough to decide, and I back him fully.
dpw
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:39:38 PM

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Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
PrincessC wrote:
I think schools should have gender neutral bathrooms like most universities do. Gender issues can be very damaging to the children because if they don't fit into the narrow minded binarism of gender they can't even have peace in a bathroom which is shocking. Just because the child is young does not mean that the child isn't aware if the gender he/she prefers.

People seem to have a blind spot when it comes to gender and the choice of what gender role one would like, but it is common and humans and especially children shouldn't have to suffer because society says there are only two ways to be.

Please do a bit of research on the subject. Yes the child is gender aware but this is because the gender role that parents affirm between 1 and 3 years of age. These parents affirmed a female gender on a male baby, this in my view is child abuse, not physical but certainly psychological abuse.
dpw
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 4:47:35 PM

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NickiC wrote:


That approach works when it is some other problem but I have a relative that was very feminine from a very young age. His parents did not accept it and did everything they could to make him masculine. When he was 3 he used ask me to draw pictures of brides for him. He liked girl's things, dolls, he would steal my barbies because his parents wouldn't let him have any. He is who he is. Now he dresses in drag a lot and is who he has always been. Sexual identity is confusing to those of us, who just know what we are but imagine if you didn't? How hard would that be? Compassion is the word here. Empathy is another one.

Ok, I feel as though I'm one against the world, although I have sought advice about this. You are confusing gender and sexual identity, your relative may be gay, he may be feminine, he may want to crossdress ,he may be a guy who wants to change his gender, that's fine by me. He had his gender affirmed as a baby, he knows he's male and growing up he might realise he's not "normal". I knew I was not normal when I was 9 or 10 but I knew I was a boy. My problem with this case is the parents didn't just not affirm gender but twisted it.
Your relatives didn't set their child up to be a target or a focal point.
I feel nothing but compassion and sympathy for the boy, no empathy as I can't imagine being in his place. As for the parents I feel just loathing and disgust!
Guest
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:43:42 PM

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book
dpw wrote:

Ok, I feel as though I'm one against the world, although I have sought advice about this. You are confusing gender and sexual identity, your relative may be gay, he may be feminine, he may want to crossdress ,he may be a guy who wants to change his gender, that's fine by me. He had his gender affirmed as a baby, he knows he's male and growing up he might realise he's not "normal". I knew I was not normal when I was 9 or 10 but I knew I was a boy. My problem with this case is the parents didn't just not affirm gender but twisted it.
Your relatives didn't set their child up to be a target or a focal point.
I feel nothing but compassion and sympathy for the boy, no empathy as I can't imagine being in his place. As for the parents I feel just loathing and disgust!


I must say 18 months is a bit of a stretch. I agree on that. It seems a bit young to think that and maybe you have a point. Maybe the parents are pushing this. Stranger things have happened. I just think the child should be able to use the girl's restroom. If the child is not in a sexual identity crisis then he/she will discover that for themselves.
PrincessC
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 1:14:20 AM

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dpw wrote:

Please do a bit of research on the subject. Yes the child is gender aware but this is because the gender role that parents affirm between 1 and 3 years of age. These parents affirmed a female gender on a male baby, this in my view is child abuse, not physical but certainly psychological abuse.


As much as I love having people assume I have no idea of what I am talking about on this topic I have done a lot of research. The child tended towards a feminine gender, that is mentioned in the article, it would have been abuse for the family not to allow the child to express that. Most sociologists see gender a mixture of both the biological and the social thus the parents alone could not have changed the masculine to the feminine (I mean the bruce/brenda example is a clear and interesting case).

Where you stand on the nature vs. nurture debate is besides the point though, my earlier comment was not about the gender awareness but rather about the responsibility of schools and public spaces to cater for every gender rather than just two which society has deemed acceptable and I obviously stand by my point. It is a very important shift that is needed when thinking about gender.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"
dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:57:21 AM

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PrincessC wrote:


As much as I love having people assume I have no idea of what I am talking about on this topic I have done a lot of research. The child tended towards a feminine gender, that is mentioned in the article, it would have been abuse for the family not to allow the child to express that. Most sociologists see gender a mixture of both the biological and the social thus the parents alone could not have changed the masculine to the feminine (I mean the bruce/brenda example is a clear and interesting case).

Where you stand on the nature vs. nurture debate is besides the point though, my earlier comment was not about the gender awareness but rather about the responsibility of schools and public spaces to cater for every gender rather than just two which society has deemed acceptable and I obviously stand by my point. It is a very important shift that is needed when thinking about gender.

I have no idea what you regard as gender.
You can be male, female and in exceptionally rare occasions hermaphrodite, that's it nothing else!
A child becomes aware of gender between 1 and 3 years of age and the parents affirm this. Just because a boy prefers to play with a doll rather than a car, it doesn't give the parents the right to dress him and treat him like a girl. That will teach the boy to adopt the gender role of a girl, this leads to confusion at about the age of 4 when a child becomes aware of their body. At that age he will have thought of himself as a female then discover that he has the body of a male, hence "there's something wrong with my body". By dressing the boy as a girl the parents have in effect been brainwashing him to believe that he's a girl.
I cannot understand how these parents would allow their child to be in such a position where may become a target of ridicule and probably shunned by his peers. I think the damage has already been done and he will need a lot of help to get through this. I dread to think what will happen when he goes through puberty with all the hormonal changes that occur to the body. If he were to be classed as a girl, what will be going through his mind when the girls start to menstruate yet he has his first erection? How will he cope with that?
If you don't believe me check with the Assoc of American Pediatrics
dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:57:57 AM

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PrincessC wrote:


As much as I love having people assume I have no idea of what I am talking about on this topic I have done a lot of research. The child tended towards a feminine gender, that is mentioned in the article, it would have been abuse for the family not to allow the child to express that. Most sociologists see gender a mixture of both the biological and the social thus the parents alone could not have changed the masculine to the feminine (I mean the bruce/brenda example is a clear and interesting case).

Where you stand on the nature vs. nurture debate is besides the point though, my earlier comment was not about the gender awareness but rather about the responsibility of schools and public spaces to cater for every gender rather than just two which society has deemed acceptable and I obviously stand by my point. It is a very important shift that is needed when thinking about gender.

I have no idea what you regard as gender.
You can be male, female and in exceptionally rare occasions hermaphrodite, that's it nothing else!
A child becomes aware of gender between 1 and 3 years of age and the parents affirm this. Just because a boy prefers to play with a doll rather than a car, it doesn't give the parents the right to dress him and treat him like a girl. That will teach the boy to adopt the gender role of a girl, this leads to confusion at about the age of 4 when a child becomes aware of their body. At that age he will have thought of himself as a female then discover that he has the body of a male, hence "there's something wrong with my body". By dressing the boy as a girl the parents have in effect been brainwashing him to believe that he's a girl.
I cannot understand how these parents would allow their child to be in such a position where may become a target of ridicule and probably shunned by his peers. I think the damage has already been done and he will need a lot of help to get through this. I dread to think what will happen when he goes through puberty with all the hormonal changes that occur to the body. If he were to be classed as a girl, what will be going through his mind when the girls start to menstruate yet he has his first erection? How will he cope with that?
If you don't believe me check with the Assoc of American Pediatrics
PrincessC
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 5:18:57 AM

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dpw wrote:

I have no idea what you regard as gender.
You can be male, female and in exceptionally rare occasions hermaphrodite, that's it nothing else!


You seem to be confusing sex and gender, this is taken from a medical journal:
"Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.
Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine."

So the child is male, but his gender is feminine. And you again are focusing on the point I'm not making and missing the point I was making.
Regardless of how society deems gender, I believe there should be gender neutral bathrooms. That's all I'm saying.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:35:36 AM

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dpw wrote:

Yes at 18 months he sat his parents down and told them he thought he'd been born the wrong gender and then said goo goo! At that age he can maybe put a short sentence together, the child has had his most formative years warped by his parents. I dread to think what psychological damage they may have caused.


I lean towards agreeing with you here, children don't start paying attention to their gender identity until 24-36 months. 18 months is far too early. The parents can argue that 6 months different isn't a lot, but to a kid that has only been on the planet for a few months, 6 months is a lot of time for the parents to have influenced him to act that way. It isn't until age 4 that they fully develop a core gender identity. After that, it takes a long time before they understand what the whole gender issue is about. I don't have a problem with transgendered people, but it's bad parenting at fault here.
dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:51:23 AM

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Magma_Boils_333 wrote:


I lean towards agreeing with you here, children don't start paying attention to their gender identity until 24-36 months. 18 months is far too early. The parents can argue that 6 months different isn't a lot, but to a kid that has only been on the planet for a few months, 6 months is a lot of time for the parents to have influenced him to act that way. It isn't until age 4 that they fully develop a core gender identity. After that, it takes a long time before they understand what the whole gender issue is about. I don't have a problem with transgendered people, but it's bad parenting at fault here.

Thanks, you've no idea how much better I feel. I am with you 100% in supporting gender reassignment for anybody post puberty, that is their choice, their independent, free choice.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:55:08 AM

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dpw wrote:

Thanks, you've no idea how much better I feel. I am with you 100% in supporting gender reassignment for anybody post puberty, that is their choice, their independent, free choice.


You're welcome. People try so hard to be politically correct these days that I wonder if we'll wind up with a new generation that's even more messed up than the last. I see parents struggling to buy toys because they don't want to interfere with their child's view of gender roles. Then the flipside, last week a woman brought her child to day care in tears because she really wanted a doll but her mother got her a teddy bear instead saying dolls were unfeminist. Kids are kids, some parents need to chill and let kids grow up on their own.
dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:06:31 AM

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PrincessC wrote:


You seem to be confusing sex and gender, this is taken from a medical journal:
"Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.
Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine."

So the child is male, but his gender is feminine. And you again are focusing on the point I'm not making and missing the point I was making.
Regardless of how society deems gender, I believe there should be gender neutral bathrooms. That's all I'm saying.

Before I say anything else can I wholeheartedly agree that there should be gender free facilities especially in schools. Both quick and slow developers are often very embarrassed about their bodies, gender free bathrooms would be a great help.
Regarding gender, I do know the difference but I was wrong to include hermaphrodite as that is a sex and not gender classification, I apologise for that, I was going to use just the two when that came into my head and added ht without thinking. However that is why gender awareness, role and affirmation are so important to a child's psychological development. The thread seemed to be concentrating on the issue of the school's restrooms when I felt that the real issue was why the child was put in that predicament.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:21:30 AM

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dpw wrote:

Before I say anything else can I wholeheartedly agree that there should be gender free facilities especially in schools. Both quick and slow developers are often very embarrassed about their bodies, gender free bathrooms would be a great help.
Regarding gender, I do know the difference but I was wrong to include hermaphrodite as that is a sex and not gender classification, I apologise for that, I was going to use just the two when that came into my head and added ht without thinking. However that is why gender awareness, role and affirmation are so important to a child's psychological development. The thread seemed to be concentrating on the issue of the school's restrooms when I felt that the real issue was why the child was put in that predicament.


You were probably thinking of Gender-Queer, medically known as Gender-Dysphoria - those who aren't sure or vacillate between the two polarities. I got a couple friends who fit this.

Far as the main issue - I still believe that when a child who is old enough to make even simple decisions (a MAAB of 18 months pointing at a dress and saying "WANT!"), then it is in that child's best interests to let them explore and be who they want.

They might settle down and assume a more traditional line of thought for their birth-sex, and they might not. Imposing a view contrary to their own self-identification creates more problems than anything else.

You might not agree with me, and that's alright, but I stand by my position whole-heartedly.
PrincessC
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:25:55 AM

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JasonM wrote:


You were probably thinking of Gender-Queer, medically known as Gender-Dysphoria - those who aren't sure or vacillate between the two polarities. I got a couple friends who fit this.

Far as the main issue - I still believe that when a child who is old enough to make even simple decisions (a MAAB of 18 months pointing at a dress and saying "WANT!"), then it is in that child's best interests to let them explore and be who they want.

They might settle down and assume a more traditional line of thought for their birth-sex, and they might not. Imposing a view contrary to their own self-identification creates more problems than anything else.

You might not agree with me, and that's alright, but I stand by my position whole-heartedly.


I totally agree with this.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"
PrincessC
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:28:07 AM

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dpw wrote:

Regarding gender, I do know the difference but I was wrong to include hermaphrodite as that is a sex and not gender classification, I apologise for that, I was going to use just the two when that came into my head and added ht without thinking.


Male and Female are not gender classifications either, they are sex classifications. The terms used are masculine and feminine with obvious shades in between.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:30:42 AM

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dpw wrote:

I have no idea what you regard as gender.
You can be male, female and in exceptionally rare occasions hermaphrodite, that's it nothing else!
A child becomes aware of gender between 1 and 3 years of age and the parents affirm this. Just because a boy prefers to play with a doll rather than a car, it doesn't give the parents the right to dress him and treat him like a girl. That will teach the boy to adopt the gender role of a girl, this leads to confusion at about the age of 4 when a child becomes aware of their body. At that age he will have thought of himself as a female then discover that he has the body of a male, hence "there's something wrong with my body". By dressing the boy as a girl the parents have in effect been brainwashing him to believe that he's a girl.


After reading your posts in this thread, I'm actually also starting to agree with you.

Being a 'boy' or a 'girl' for very young children tends to be seen as more black and white than when someone is older. Who's to say that this child isn't simply a boy who enjoys playing with dolls and keeping his hair long. Maybe he's just drawn to more feminine clothing and colours. He might end up growing up to be a gay male, an androgynous straight guy, or a male that just enjoys cross-dressing on occasion.

As a child, he might be looking at his peer groups and thinking "I can identify more with what the girls are interested in but I am clearly a boy so something is wrong". That doesn't necessary mean he was born into the wrong body. The parents might be guiding him in that direction or trying to delineate gender in a black and white way by suggesting he must be transgendered, instead of just a boy that isn't 'typically' masculine in his interests and playtime habits. Their approach might be "you enjoy girlish things Coy, do you feel like a girl instead of a boy?" And it's a kid, after all, they have no idea what the impact of all of this means. He might just want to feel like he belongs to one gender or the other, based on his interests, so he possibly thinks being a girl is the correct answer.

It's like labelling all adult cross-dressing males as transgendered and assuming they all want to be women. Or assuming a male with feminine tendencies should really be living his life as a woman. I don't know the full story, but technically Coy is rather young to be drawing the line in the sand... or having his parents guide him in that direction. He could just be raised in a more androgynous way (eg. let him have long hair and wear pink or whatever, but still be considered a boy) until he hits puberty and then he would have a better understanding of what gender really means and which direction he felt more comfortable going in.


dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:39:26 PM

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Dancing_Doll wrote:


After reading your posts in this thread, I'm actually also starting to agree with you.

Being a 'boy' or a 'girl' for very young children tends to be seen as more black and white than when someone is older. Who's to say that this child isn't simply a boy who enjoys playing with dolls and keeping his hair long. Maybe he's just drawn to more feminine clothing and colours. He might end up growing up to be a gay male, an androgynous straight guy, or a male that just enjoys cross-dressing on occasion.

As a child, he might be looking at his peer groups and thinking "I can identify more with what the girls are interested in but I am clearly a boy so something is wrong". That doesn't necessary mean he was born into the wrong body. The parents might be guiding him in that direction or trying to delineate gender in a black and white way by suggesting he must be transgendered, instead of just a boy that isn't 'typically' masculine in his interests and playtime habits. Their approach might be "you enjoy girlish things Coy, do you feel like a girl instead of a boy?" And it's a kid, after all, they have no idea what the impact of all of this means. He might just want to feel like he belongs to one gender or the other, based on his interests, so he possibly thinks being a girl is the correct answer.

It's like labelling all adult cross-dressing males as transgendered and assuming they all want to be women. Or assuming a male with feminine tendencies should really be living his life as a woman. I don't know the full story, but technically Coy is rather young to be drawing the line in the sand... or having his parents guide him in that direction. He could just be raised in a more androgynous way (eg. let him have long hair and wear pink or whatever, but still be considered a boy) until he hits puberty and then he would have a better understanding of what gender really means and which direction he felt more comfortable going in.

As usual DD you've hit the nail on the head, probably a lot more eloquently than I have. I read a lot of your posts. My thanks to you.
dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 1:16:35 PM

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JasonM wrote:


You were probably thinking of Gender-Queer, medically known as Gender-Dysphoria - those who aren't sure or vacillate between the two polarities. I got a couple friends who fit this.

Far as the main issue - I still believe that when a child who is old enough to make even simple decisions (a MAAB of 18 months pointing at a dress and saying "WANT!"), then it is in that child's best interests to let them explore and be who they want.

They might settle down and assume a more traditional line of thought for their birth-sex, and they might not. Imposing a view contrary to their own self-identification creates more problems than anything else.

You might not agree with me, and that's alright, but I stand by my position whole-heartedly.

Sorry I'm not talking about gender dysphoria, that doesn't emerge at 18 months, it is more prelevent at a later stage. When did your friends become aware of it?
There is always, for want of a better word, trauma involved with dysphoria. Which is more traumatic for a boy:
To discover that he has "the wrong body".
or
To discover that he has been raised as a girl and faced years of abuse and ridicule when in fact he sees himself as a boy.
I fear we may never agree on this but feel sure that you agree that the transgendered community should be accepted unreservedly.
dpw
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 1:28:09 PM

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PrincessC wrote:


Male and Female are not gender classifications either, they are sex classifications. The terms used are masculine and feminine with obvious shades in between.

Masculine, feminine and neuter are linguistic gender classifications. As far as human classification is concerned male or masculine and female or feminine gender are equally acceptable. Feel free to check with the bible of the English language.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 2:09:02 PM

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dpw wrote:

Sorry I'm not talking about gender dysphoria, that doesn't emerge at 18 months, it is more prelevent at a later stage. When did your friends become aware of it?
There is always, for want of a better word, trauma involved with dysphoria. Which is more traumatic for a boy:
To discover that he has "the wrong body".
or
To discover that he has been raised as a girl and faced years of abuse and ridicule when in fact he sees himself as a boy.
I fear we may never agree on this but feel sure that you agree that the transgendered community should be accepted unreservedly.


Who knows when it emerges -

The MAAB friend I have never enjoyed any activity that could be classified as boy or girl type - had a couple experiences in his late teens and figured out that he's asexual - no interest in physical at all, though he does have close emotional connections with several people

The FAAB friend told me she was confused from the time she was six or seven, sometimes wanted to play with Barbies and other times wanted to go out and play 'war'. Was in her teens when she finally figured out that she sat on the fence. On first waking, she says she has more of a male outlook than a fem one, and half the time she stays that way all day.

Trauma - yes, to a varying degree - MAAB friend almost committed suicide when he figured out that he was not only GQ, but Asexual as well - the FAAB friend suffers depression and anxiety but not so severe as to incapacitate.

I think the jury will be out for a long time on which is more traumatic.

I may be straight, but I'm a HUGE LGBTQA supporter.
Guest
Posted: Sunday, October 20, 2013 2:14:12 PM

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dpw wrote:

Thanks, you've no idea how much better I feel. I am with you 100% in supporting gender reassignment for anybody post puberty, that is their choice, their independent, free choice.


Yeah, I am with you on that. The more I think about this, the more I find it rather disturbing. The parent's should have let this unfold naturally because it does seem as though they have some sort of agenda. If it were my child, I would not have done what they did. What if the boy is just feminine? How do you make that call with a child that young? I know that Warren Beatty has a son who has gender identity issues but I don't think they dressed him as a girl at 6 years old so...you make some valid points.

I also think people are mixing up the desire to be open minded and tolerant with the actual facts of this case. I have no issue with anyone's sexuality or gender identification. If you want a sex change? Go for it. But in this case I think the parents are pushing this.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 7:26:27 AM

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Great discussion everyone!! When I originally posted this topic it was meant to be more about the school's decision about which bathroom Coy should use, not any judgement on transgender, is it right or wrong. But threads meander and go where we take them. And it's been interesting to read it all.

The original article was about a discrimination case brought by Coy's parents saying she should be able to use the girls' restroom. That case has been heard and decided in favor of Coy. Coy wins Civil rights case

I'm worried about Coy. Right now she is in first grade, and 5-6 year olds don't care or notice much, and don't have much modesty. As any parent will tell you, as they age to around 4th grade or so, kids become very aware of their bodies and become very modest. When this group of kids gets older, how will the girls react to having someone with a penis in their bathroom.

What happens in junior high when they have to change clothes in the locker room before and after P.E. class and the girls point and laugh? Will Coy have to be more discreet as she undresses? Hide herself? Will her difference and likely ridicule cause her to be ashamed of her body? Likewise, would having her change in separate room bring out her difference even more? No win situation.

What happens in high school when Coy joins the soccer team or band, and they go on an overnight trip? Coy may grow up to like girls, how will other parents feel about their daughter rooming with a girl... but this girl has a penis. If you had (or have) a 14 yr old daughter, would you want her sleeping unsupervised in the same room and/or bed as a 16 year old heterosexual boy? At the same time, Coy rooming with the boys would be just as bad as they could take her difference and use it as a tool to bully, humiliate, or worse.

I don't know the answers, just wonder of the unintended consequences. I think the school should have been allowed to have Coy use a gender neutral or nurse's bathroom for the time being. Law and society may need a little time to catch up on things like this. This isn't a judgement on Coy's sexuality or his gender.







When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
dpw
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:02:53 AM

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Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 4,464
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
lafayettemister wrote:
Great discussion everyone!! When I originally posted this topic it was meant to be more about the school's decision about which bathroom Coy should use, not any judgement on transgender, is it right or wrong. But threads meander and go where we take them. And it's been interesting to read it all.

The original article was about a discrimination case brought by Coy's parents saying she should be able to use the girls' restroom. That case has been heard and decided in favor of Coy. Coy wins Civil rights case

I'm worried about Coy. Right now she is in first grade, and 5-6 year olds don't care or notice much, and don't have much modesty. As any parent will tell you, as they age to around 4th grade or so, kids become very aware of their bodies and become very modest. When this group of kids gets older, how will the girls react to having someone with a penis in their bathroom.

What happens in junior high when they have to change clothes in the locker room before and after P.E. class and the girls point and laugh? Will Coy have to be more discreet as she undresses? Hide herself? Will her difference and likely ridicule cause her to be ashamed of her body? Likewise, would having her change in separate room bring out her difference even more? No win situation.

What happens in high school when Coy joins the soccer team or band, and they go on an overnight trip? Coy may grow up to like girls, how will other parents feel about their daughter rooming with a girl... but this girl has a penis. If you had (or have) a 14 yr old daughter, would you want her sleeping unsupervised in the same room and/or bed as a 16 year old heterosexual boy? At the same time, Coy rooming with the boys would be just as bad as they could take her difference and use it as a tool to bully, humiliate, or worse.

I don't know the answers, just wonder of the unintended consequences. I think the school should have been allowed to have Coy use a gender neutral or nurse's bathroom for the time being. Law and society may need a little time to catch up on things like this. This isn't a judgement on Coy's sexuality or his gender.


Yes I found out that the appeal had been upheld.
You've read my mind regarding your concerns for Coy.
What I couldn't understand is that Coy has a passport with the sex as female.
lafayettemister
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:10:10 AM

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Location: Alabama, United States
dpw wrote:

Yes I found out that the appeal had been upheld.
You've read my mind regarding your concerns for Coy.
What I couldn't understand is that Coy has a passport with the sex as female.


I don't follow. Elaborate?





When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
PrincessC
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:59:49 AM

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Joined: 2/2/2012
Posts: 245
Location: South Korea
dpw wrote:

Masculine, feminine and neuter are linguistic gender classifications. As far as human classification is concerned male or masculine and female or feminine gender are equally acceptable. Feel free to check with the bible of the English language.


These terms are not correct when talking sociologically and they are certainly not interchangeable though I can agree to disagree here, seems like a moot point.

"A dirty book is rarely dusty"
dpw
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 10:06:52 AM

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Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 4,464
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
lafayettemister wrote:


I don't follow. Elaborate?

Coy has an American passport and the stated sex is female.
I thought that the sex would be the biological sex at birth, at least until reassignment surgery.
Guest
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:09:37 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 781,118
Well as somebody that lived through a lot. I was born mixed sex. Young transgenders do not choose to be that way. I ended up home schooled. The trans-genders have it harder than I did, because my body already had a female form. They have to take drugs to change their bodies to match their brain. A female brain with girl thoughts and feelings. I wish the schools were more sensitive. It's not like she was standing at urinal and whipping it out!
Volya
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 12:40:12 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 10/9/2013
Posts: 123
Location: United States
dpw wrote:

Coy has an American passport and the stated sex is female.
I thought that the sex would be the biological sex at birth, at least until reassignment surgery.


Basically, the sex shown on the passport reflects whatever the applicant (in this case that would have been Coy's parents) lists on the passport application form.

I'm in full agreement with DPW on this one -- while well-intended, I think the parents are doing/have done few favors for this child.
dpw
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:14:24 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 4,464
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
Volya wrote:


Basically, the sex shown on the passport reflects whatever the applicant (in this case that would have been Coy's parents) lists on the passport application form.

I'm in full agreement with DPW on this one -- while well-intended, I think the parents are doing/have done few favors for this child.

Thanks.
In the UK the parents have to produce their own passport for nationaliy and the birth certificate to prove date and place of birth and the sex, isn't it the same in the USA?
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