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I Am An Atheist. (Does that offend you?) Options · View
Guest
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:50:51 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
dpw wrote:

A quote isn't an attack, it's to bring notice to the poster. Look back my first post it doesn't attack you at all.
I've only assumed that you are a christian and your faith is ingrained. You objected to the sign with the crucifix but would you have been so quick to attack the sign with the symbol of another faith that we will never know.
I don't understand what you mean about blue or yellow but being a good Evertonian I'll pick blue, you can let me know what I opted for, lol.
Your first post said that you weren't deeply religious but then went on like an African missionary laying into everyone that even hinted that they were in disagreement.
I haven't monitored your posts, I've noticed your name that's all. I'm totally ambivalent, I like to play devil's advocate.


How about you point me to where I attacked you on a personal level because I can't seem to find it. I did not lay into everyone that hinted they were in disagreement, you are ignoring the fact that numerous atheists have posted here and I haven't "attacked them" as you put it. You really should read to understand and not read and make assumptions. I objected to two people, the original poster and the person who posted the anti-christian symbol. Have I told anyone here to bury their beliefs and follow mine? Asking for a certain degree of courtesy when referring to something many believe in is not "attacking" anyone.
Monocle
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:13:23 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 301
I think you two should get a room. It'd be the makings of an excellent Lush story. Most atheists still call out "Oh, god!" at the right moment.
dpw
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:33:57 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 4,459
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
Magma_Boils_333 wrote:


How about you point me to where I attacked you on a personal level because I can't seem to find it. I did not lay into everyone that hinted they were in disagreement, you are ignoring the fact that numerous atheists have posted here and I haven't "attacked them" as you put it. You really should read to understand and not read and make assumptions. I objected to two people, the original poster and the person who posted the anti-christian symbol. Have I told anyone here to bury their beliefs and follow mine? Asking for a certain degree of courtesy when referring to something many believe in is not "attacking" anyone.

You called them a troll, get real!
Anyway this is my final post bar one so I'll leave you with the last word and I'll turn the other cheek.
Guest
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:43:04 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
dpw wrote:

You called them a troll, get real!
Anyway this is my final post bar one so I'll leave you with the last word and I'll turn the other cheek.


Yes, I called them trolls, what of it? In what way is that attacking you as you claim that I did?

Quote:
Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing argument


The definition fit so I called it like I saw it. I couldn't care less if you don't reply, that's your choice and unlike what you seem to believe, I can respect choices as long as the person making it is not disparaging about mine.
stephanie
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:12:14 PM

Rank: Bohemian

Joined: 1/1/2010
Posts: 5,364
Location: Dublin, Ire., Ireland
If you guys might bear with me...

I'm currently involved in an academic project which has necessitated my re-reading the old testament of the Christian bible.

(This is not BS, several of my friends here will confirm I've been working on this for months.)

As you do when you're involved in such a project, particularly when about to conclude, and to be honest to clarify my own thinking and point of approach, I've also been re-reading Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and indeed, for balance, committed theists like Frank Turek.

In my reading, (and as an avowed atheist) I was VERY surprised to discover that Atheists are among the most mistrusted and hated groups in modern America.

And THAT'S why I posted the thread, just to get a take on this from a varied and valued community of which I am a proud member.

(I'm not generally known for my soft-spokeness and gentility, perhaps never more so than in this case, but I HUMBLY apologise if my posts appeared (were???) dictatorial and high-handed. I say again and with ABJECT honesty, I NEVER meant to offend anyone.)

But I'll tell you a true story...

In the Catholic School I attended as a FIVE-YEAR-OLD, the iron railings of the schoolyard were supported by concrete stanchions, each almost as big as a telephone box, at about three metre intervals... They looked for all the world like huge concrete ice-lollies, surrounding the schoolyard...

I vividly remember the day we children were told what LIMBO was, how un-baptised children could NEVER enter the kingdom of heaven until the second coming of Christ, instead, those innocent souls must float about in a kind of netherworld, denied love and comfort, until redeemed by the resurrection and re-united with those who loved them. I believed every word of this.

I was FIVE! To this day I remember going into the schoolyard after that lesson. Trying to imagine what such a thing might be like. I imagined little lonely souls encased in the concrete bollards of the schoolyard fence for all eternity, watching and hearing other children laugh and pray and love and learn and have fun, knowing that, through no fault of their own, that would never be for them...

I was a VERY precocious and imaginative child, but even so... And I'm aware we're not talking about fire and brimstone here, just... Nothingness...

Now as it happens, in I think 2004 the Catholic Church decided they'd made a mistake about Limbo and that it didn't and had never existed... (How did they know???)

But of course that decision came a little late to save me from my years of nightmares.

I call that child abuse.

And it continues today in every faith school where HELL and DAMNATION and FEAR of a "loving" (don't make me laugh) God continues to be taught to this day.

My own atheism evolved with my ability to read and consider. My re-reading of, and PLEASE permit me to swear here, of THE VILE VIOLENT POISONOUS FUCKING NONSENSE that is the Christian bible awoke long buried memories in me... How I wish I could cuddle that little boy and tell him that it was all just nasty fairy stories, told to innocents by misguided and surely depraved inadequates...

But I can't.

So I apologise, SINCERELY if I offended. It wasn't my intention. Perhaps I was railing against old demons. Perhaps I was finally shouting back at the lunatics who shouted at me for years. Perhaps I was giving voice to a little boy who 45 years ago stood in a schoolyard amongst playing children and sobbed helplessly for the hopeless babies in the bollards.

x S







"Stirring Up The Smooth Sands Of Monotony Since 1967." xx SF
doctorlove
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:29:26 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/11/2012
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Location: United States
I dont think i have ever had sex with a atheist. Would love to find out if you fuck the same as someone whom might believe.
stephanie
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:32:44 PM

Rank: Bohemian

Joined: 1/1/2010
Posts: 5,364
Location: Dublin, Ire., Ireland
doctorlove wrote:
I dont think i have ever had sex with a atheist. Would love to find out if you fuck the same as someone whom might believe.


Better actually... And we DO say, "Oh God" and "Jeeeeesus!" xx SF

"Stirring Up The Smooth Sands Of Monotony Since 1967." xx SF
Buz
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:40:44 PM

Rank: The Linebacker
Moderator

Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 7,390
Location: Atlanta, United States
stephanie wrote:

If you guys might bear with me...


Bear my ass... You'll be converted BARE once I'm done with you. I'm gonna sprinkle some Holy Kentucky Bourbon on your ass and cast out those fuckin' demons. You'll be chasing choir chicks in no time. Thank ya Parson!
Lfunny

Sorry if my earlier reply seemed harsh. There ain't any offense taken on my part. Everyone is free to have their own beliefs in my opinion.


Katje
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:44:22 PM

Rank: Buxom Enigma
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Joined: 2/17/2013
Posts: 1,885
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stephanie wrote:


Better actually... And we DO say, "Oh God" and "Jeeeeesus!" xx SF


And with quite a lovely Irish accent, I'm sure!

As one who was raised Pentecostal and knows the Bible backwards and forwards, I'll interject here that everyone has their own mind. It's the fanatics of the world that press and gag non-believers with the Word. In all of my years, I've never had someone say that I forced my beliefs on them, and surely not projected the more heinous and ugly side of things on an innocent five-year-old.

I'll admit to not having read this thread through in its entirety, but at the same time ... I'm not offended by athiests, anymore than I'm offending by agnostics, pagans, Jews or any other religion or belief pattern.

When I'm asked what I practice, I respond simply: "Tolerance. I suffer no hatred, and I believe that THAT is the key to unity."


(Simply click on any of the images to view my stories!)
stephanie
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:50:05 PM

Rank: Bohemian

Joined: 1/1/2010
Posts: 5,364
Location: Dublin, Ire., Ireland
Buz wrote:


Bear my ass... You'll be converted BARE once I'm done with you. I'm gonna sprinkle some Holy Kentucky Bourbon on your ass and cast out those fuckin' demons. You'll be chasing choir chicks in no time. Thank ya Parson!
Lfunny

Sorry if my earlier reply seemed harsh. There ain't any offense taken on my part. Everyone is free to have their own beliefs in my opinion.


If I didn't ABSOLUTELY KNOW you are TOTALLY STRAIGHT... (*Winks at you...*)

xx S



"Stirring Up The Smooth Sands Of Monotony Since 1967." xx SF
SereneProdigy
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:22:10 PM

Rank: Cryptic Vigilante

Joined: 7/16/2013
Posts: 2,489
Location: Over the Rainbow
Magma_Boils_333 wrote:
Yes, I called them trolls, what of it?


Singling me out and labeling me 'hateful' and a 'troll' many times in this thread (despite me explaining carefully in my posts that the symbol I posted was nothing more than a personal expression of my own opinions), could be considered a lot more offendable and disrespectful than stating a personal opinion. Still, I only perceived your claims as juvenile and futile and didn't take any offense whatsoever.

Also, you still haven't explained precisely why the symbol I exposed is supposed to be any hateful or derogatory, or why you perceived it as a personal attack directed at you. The Christian cross is not the universal symbol of Magma_Boils_333's personal faith in a higher deity ; it's the symbol of a religious organization that had a major influence on people's thoughts, beliefs and actions over the last 2,000 years, and that still voraciously promotes its ideas and tries to exercise its power in the public domain even today. Therefore, I have all the rights to question the validity of this organization and its effects on society. The use of the symbol I presented earlier is also completely legitimate to express my reserve to see this religion intruded into public affairs. Apologies to those who hold this charming opinion that religion is only a personal matter, but it's quite a lot more than that.

If religion is only a personal concern, why is the name 'God' featured on money bills and at the entrance of many political institutions? Why are the 10 commandments displayed in many law courts, and the bible used to perform oaths? Why does the Pledge of Allegiance contain the words 'One nation under God'? Why are churches and mosques eligible to tax exemptions, as if they were inherently more valuable to society than any other group of citizens? Why are many people killed in foreign countries if they don't submit themselves to the dominant religion? Why do political leaders pronounce the words 'In God we trust' or 'Inch'Allah' when sending their troops to war, as if their actions were endorsed by a higher being? Why does religion have such a major influence on sexuality, women's rights, abortion, health, justice and education? Secular nations are still a minority around the globe. Merely tolerating other belief systems with laws such as the First Amendment doesn't make a country secular ; that belief would simply be hypocrite.

Your religion and the symbol that's associated with it still have a major impact on my personal life, without my inquiry whatsoever to be so. Does my freedom of religion only imply that I'll say to myself "I'm an atheist" before going to bed, while all the laws and principles that govern my country will be directed by a religion that is not my own? Am I really in the wrong for refusing this religion with a symbol that universally means nothing more than a weak 'no'?

If I don't agree with the principles of a political party, that doesn't make me hateful or derogatory, and I'll be allowed to express my opinion in a nonviolent manner with any words or symbols that I'll see fit. Why exactly would that be any different in the case of religion? Because religious people self-proclaimed their beliefs, customs and symbols as being sacred and untouchable? That doesn't make them any sacred or untouchable to me. If you hold such a high value of your religion and its symbolism so that the least comment that will be directed at them is going to be offensive to you, it is sincerely your problem more than it is mine.

My opinions might provoke reactions, emotions and thoughts in you, and yes, some of them might offend you. However, that doesn't justify labeling disagreement and criticism as 'intolerant' or 'hateful'. You also have all the rights to disagree and criticize my point of view ; I won't personally take any offense and will gladly respond to your criticism, heated or not, with constructive arguments. Even mocking, ridiculing, and making fun of beliefs and opinions isn't intolerance ; certain beliefs and opinions really are silly and deserve mockery. The absurdity of some ideas is also better demonstrated through mockery than through a reasoned argumentation ; sometimes opinions shouldn't be treated with the seriousness of a logical analysis because that grants them a respectability they don't deserve in the first place. This holds true for both parties involved in the debate.

Also, what exactly is so morally wrong about being provoked or offended, being inquisitive about others' thoughts, and defending a personal opinion publicly? Isn't it how social progress is and was always achieved? Simply think about the dissent provoked by Galileo, Darwin, Freud, Martin Luther King, and yes, even Jesus Christ. What's the alternative to that? Living our lives in parallel and building hatred toward each other in our private, personal bubbles of loneliness? The notion of 'private happiness' might be very appealing to some, and it's becoming more and more accessible and sustainable in our modern era, but it's quite absurd and apathetical to me, not to mention very dangerous. We still exist as a community as far as I'm concerned. Individuality is about trying to use our personal experiences and beliefs for the greater good, not hiding from each other and admiring how 'tolerant' or 'respectful' we can appear by doing so.

So, are you only sticking around to get purposefully offended and criticize others for it, or are you actually up for a debate that englobes more than your own person?


Further reading :

History of the Relationship between Politics and Religion
http://www.evolutionary-metaphysics.net/politics_and_religion.html

12 Rules for Mixing Religion and Politics
http://www.pfaw.org/media-center/publications/12-rules-mixing-religion-and-politics

Church and State, Politics and Religion
http://www.frontiernet.net/~kenc/relandpo.htm


Guest
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:47:44 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
SereneProdigy wrote:




I ventured back in here because I was quoted, but I'm not going to waste my time to read that ridiculously long post and as for the links at the bottom, I assume they are meant for me to read, but I don't feel like doing homework. If this is about what I said about you, I still maintain that and have explained why I said what I said. You are not going to change my mind and I never set out to change yours. If you still have a problem with it, tough.
SereneProdigy
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:58:20 PM

Rank: Cryptic Vigilante

Joined: 7/16/2013
Posts: 2,489
Location: Over the Rainbow
Magma_Boils_333 wrote:
I ventured back in here because I was quoted, but I'm not going to waste my time to read that ridiculously long post and as for the links at the bottom, I assume they are meant for me to read, but I don't feel like doing homework. If this is about what I said about you, I still maintain that and have explained why I said what I said. You are not going to change my mind and I never set out to change yours. If you still have a problem with it, tough.


So, you're not going to take 5 minutes of your time to explore my side of the coin? How very tolerant and respectful of you. Interstingly enough, reading my post wouldn't have taken much more of your time than posting all the replies that you previously posted here and that didn't enlighten anybody whatsoever.

You probably have a whole lot more of things to do anyway, like praying that humanity will once be united and forever happy.

The links were provided for anybody to read, if they're actually interested in this debate. Some people rely on more than one book to construct their opinions of the world.

You really don't need any argumentation to prove me wrong either, anyway. I'm sure simply labeling me as 'evil' will satisfy you plenty enough. L16
Guest
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:06:48 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
SereneProdigy wrote:


So, you're not going to take 5 minutes of your time to explore my side of the coin? How very tolerant and respectful of you.

You probably have a whole lot more of things to do anyway, like praying that humanity will once be united and forever happy.

The links were provided for anybody to read, if they're actually interested in this debate. Some people rely on more than one book to construct their opinions of the world.


I did not pressure you into reading any of my posts so why not respect my choice not to delve into your ridiculously long one.

You know nothing of my habits or my life but I will not begrudge you your little imaginings. My reading history would probably surprise you, but I am happy to let you insinuate that I'm not as well read as you if that makes you feel better about yourself.
SereneProdigy
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:13:11 PM

Rank: Cryptic Vigilante

Joined: 7/16/2013
Posts: 2,489
Location: Over the Rainbow
Magma_Boils_333 wrote:
I did not pressure you into reading any of my posts so why not respect my choice not to delve into your ridiculously long one.

You know nothing of my habits or my life but I will not begrudge you your little imaginings. My reading history would probably surprise you, but I am happy to let you insinuate that I'm not as well read as you if that makes you feel better about yourself.


So, we're done with this debate and this whole thread then? Nobody will lose any more of their time here stating how easily they can be offended?

That's good enough for me if nobody is willing to discuss this subject in a serious manner. By the way, I'm not offended by you at all, sincerely. Only a little disappointed that you call it quit just when things were getting a little more formal and interesting.
Guest
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:22:09 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
SereneProdigy wrote:


So, we're done with this debate and this whole thread then? Nobody will lose any more time here stating how easily they can be offended?

That's good enough for me if nobody is willing to discuss this subject in a serious manner.


I don't know if you're deliberately setting it up or if you just don't see it, but I'll refrain from commenting on it because it's been said so many times.

There was never any potential for a serious discussion here. Look at the tantrums that have been thrown, the useless quips from people with nothing to contribute and the not-so-subtle calls for people to shut up, the deliberately inflammatory remarks, a serious discussion never had a chance.
LadyX
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:56:10 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
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Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,813
My only hope is that some of you are only this brittle on the internet. I pity the person ready to either call the lawyer or crawl back in bed at the day's first instance of adversity. As for the subject (that's been attempted to be discussed) at hand, at the end of the day, what does it matter? The degree to which somebody takes offense at somebody else's beliefs and chest-thumping matters not one whit. All the talk about how much better off we'd all be if we all had faith, or if none of us had faith...it's all a bunch of blah. Nobody should seriously think that we'd all get on board with any one thing like that.

No matter what you believe, or what you've chosen not to entertain, just live the best life you can. Be the best version of yourself that you can muster. If you think that means being a blowhard, then don't be surprised when your act isn't met with heads nodding in agreement. On the other hand, if you come across the blowhard, walking away is much smarter (and much less of a beating to others) than making an issue of being aggrieved.
SereneProdigy
Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 11:12:31 PM

Rank: Cryptic Vigilante

Joined: 7/16/2013
Posts: 2,489
Location: Over the Rainbow
LadyX wrote:
My only hope is that some of you are only this brittle on the internet. I pity the person ready to either call the lawyer or crawl back in bed at the day's first instance of adversity. As for the subject (that's been attempted to be discussed) at hand, at the end of the day, what does it matter? The degree to which somebody takes offense at somebody else's beliefs and chest-thumping matters not one whit. All the talk about how much better off we'd all be if we all had faith, or if none of us had faith...it's all a bunch of blah. Nobody should seriously think that we'd all get on board with any one thing like that.

No matter what you believe, or what you've chosen not to entertain, just live the best life you can. Be the best version of yourself that you can muster. If you think that means being a blowhard, then don't be surprised when your act isn't met with heads nodding in agreement. On the other hand, if you come across the blowhard, walking away is much smarter (and much less of a beating to others) than making an issue of being aggrieved.


Now I'd be really curious to know which terms in this post I inspired. I don't generally nod my head in agreement, so I must be the blowhard. Maybe a little of a chest-thumping attitude, but I don't generally rely on lawyers. I'm surely not brittle though. clown

Seriously though, I'm done with this discussion, but what I said previously matters a whole lot to me and to many others I personally know in real life. It's not about figuring out which system of beliefs is the best for everybody, it's about personal freedom of religion and leaving religions out of public affairs. People might be able to believe in whatever they want in their isolated solitudes, but it doesn't mean that their society is going to be supportive or tolerant of their beliefs. There's still a lot to achieve in that domain, in my opinion, especially in foreign countries. The best version of myself includes being interested at least a little in this debate, and defending my perspective when I'm being perceived as hateful simply by promoting a secular society.
nazhinaz
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:32:43 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 1/16/2010
Posts: 294
Location: Longview, United States
Let me add.
I too am an atheist. I was raised in a conservative Muslim family.
But I left God after reading science and Darwin.
But Life has taught me not to confront my thinking or my conclusions to others.
I do have a right to hold my thinking as I feel it is based on scientific knowledge
BUT OTHERS TOO ARE SIMILARLY ENTITLED TO HOLD THEIR OPINIONS EVEN BASED ON HEARSAY OR BELIEF.
Most important is to have a smiling tolerance even to those who do believe in God or Gods.
As we have arrived at an understanding o=based on knowledge.
They prefer to base their understanding on belief and hearsay.
As equal human beings, we all are entitled to equal treatment.
To Stephnie I would very humbly suggest that let's not confront others with our understand as is being done by priests of Religions.
Please show tolerance even to something that we feel or know is ignorance; coz this ignorance too is human.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:34:20 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
stephanie wrote:


I'd be really interested if someone posted that... Particularly here... (It wouldn't OFFEND me but I'd certainly discuss that position...)

STATING an opinion is not 'flaunting' an opinion.

(AS it happens, I agree with you, but I am surely allowed to state AN OPINION...)

I DISAGREE that Atheists believe in 'nothing'... Atheists believe in a deep humanity and a sense of human commonality that isn't defined by archaic and ancient flawed dogma and redundant scripture... Most of which is fractious, misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging and ultimately violent and hateful...

I have Christian friends, Muslim friends, Jewish friends and I respect their right to believe in their God and worship (?) as they feel they must.

I don't believe that ANY of my friends are " fractious, misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging and ultimately violent and hateful."

It begs the question then why they subscribe to a system/s that simply and PROVABLY is all those things...

So I asked.

I wrote to promote awareness and debate.

I meant to offend no one.

xx SF






I guess just the way your original post was portrayed, and even this one is making most of us feel like you're saying atheists are somehow better than theists. And in that way it really does seem like you're flaunting an opinion. But that's just me. No bitchiness intended.

As for being a believer, I meant the portion about either believing in a certain god or divinity. Atheists don't necessarily believe in humanity or commonality either you know. I sure as hell don't. Having a sense of humanity is different, believing in it is completely different.

We nor anyone around here has the right to call any religion: misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful. Have you read any of the scriptures in detail to come to that conclusion? No religion's mission is any of the above. If anything all the rituals performed, all the reasons for doing anything are justified somehow. None of them which are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful.

I personally have read the Quran, Bible and Sikh scriptures and from that I've decided there's nothing for me in any of that. Doesn't mean I think ill of their ways.

Why does anyone do anything? To find some sort of meaning to their lives. To have some reason to be of existence. We all believe in something or the other.

You say you just posted the question up for discussion, but really have you gotten a discussion? Really all it is person to person bitching. For a discussion to be entailed, maybe should of asked the question in a different fashion. Again that may just be me.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:37:38 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
nazhinaz wrote:
Let me add.
I too am an atheist. I was raised in a conservative Muslim family.
But I left God after reading science and Darwin.
But Life has taught me not to confront my thinking or my conclusions to others.
I do have a right to hold my thinking as I feel it is based on scientific knowledge
BUT OTHERS TOO ARE SIMILARLY ENTITLED TO HOLD THEIR OPINIONS EVEN BASED ON HEARSAY OR BELIEF.
Most important is to have a smiling tolerance even to those who do believe in God or Gods.
As we have arrived at an understanding o=based on knowledge.
They prefer to base their understanding on belief and hearsay.
As equal human beings, we all are entitled to equal treatment.
To Stephnie I would very humbly suggest that let's not confront others with our understand as is being done by priests of Religions.
Please show tolerance even to something that we feel or know is ignorance; coz this ignorance too is human.


Completely agree. I was raised in a conservative Sikh household, so I guess it's easier to respect such when you've been one of them.
BiMale73
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 3:44:39 AM

Rank: Forum Guru
Moderator

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Posts: 814
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SereneProdigy wrote:
Singling me out and labeling me 'hateful' and a 'troll' many times in this thread (despite me explaining carefully in my posts that the symbol I posted was nothing more than a personal expression of my own opinions), could be considered a lot more offendable and disrespectful than stating a personal opinion. Still, I only perceived your claims as juvenile and futile and didn't take any offense whatsoever.

Also, you still haven't explained precisely why the symbol I exposed is supposed to be any hateful or derogatory, or why you perceived it as a personal attack directed at you. The Christian cross is not the universal symbol of Magma_Boils_333's personal faith in a higher deity ; it's the symbol of a religious organization that had a major influence on people's thoughts, beliefs and actions over the last 2,000 years, and that still voraciously promotes its ideas and tries to exercise its power in the public domain even today. Therefore, I have all the rights to question the validity of this organization and its effects on society. The use of the symbol I presented earlier is also completely legitimate to express my reserve to see this religion intruded into public affairs. Apologies to those who hold this charming opinion that religion is only a personal matter, but it's quite a lot more than that.

If religion is only a personal concern, why is the name 'God' featured on money bills and at the entrance of many political institutions? Why are the 10 commandments displayed in many law courts, and the bible used to perform oaths? Why does the Pledge of Allegiance contain the words 'One nation under God'? Why are churches and mosques eligible to tax exemptions, as if they were inherently more valuable to society than any other group of citizens? Why are many people killed in foreign countries if they don't submit themselves to the dominant religion? Why do political leaders pronounce the words 'In God we trust' or 'Inch'Allah' when sending their troops to war, as if their actions were endorsed by a higher being? Why does religion have such a major influence on sexuality, women's rights, abortion, health, justice and education? Secular nations are still a minority around the globe. Merely tolerating other belief systems with laws such as the First Amendment doesn't make a country secular ; that belief would simply be hypocrite.

Your religion and the symbol that's associated with it still have a major impact on my personal life, without my inquiry whatsoever to be so. Does my freedom of religion only imply that I'll say to myself "I'm an atheist" before going to bed, while all the laws and principles that govern my country will be directed by a religion that is not my own? Am I really in the wrong for refusing this religion with a symbol that universally means nothing more than a weak 'no'?

If I don't agree with the principles of a political party, that doesn't make me hateful or derogatory, and I'll be allowed to express my opinion in a nonviolent manner with any words or symbols that I'll see fit. Why exactly would that be any different in the case of religion? Because religious people self-proclaimed their beliefs, customs and symbols as being sacred and untouchable? That doesn't make them any sacred or untouchable to me. If you hold such a high value of your religion and its symbolism so that the least comment that will be directed at them is going to be offensive to you, it is sincerely your problem more than it is mine.

My opinions might provoke reactions, emotions and thoughts in you, and yes, some of them might offend you. However, that doesn't justify labeling disagreement and criticism as 'intolerant' or 'hateful'. You also have all the rights to disagree and criticize my point of view ; I won't personally take any offense and will gladly respond to your criticism, heated or not, with constructive arguments. Even mocking, ridiculing, and making fun of beliefs and opinions isn't intolerance ; certain beliefs and opinions really are silly and deserve mockery. The absurdity of some ideas is also better demonstrated through mockery than through a reasoned argumentation ; sometimes opinions shouldn't be treated with the seriousness of a logical analysis because that grants them a respectability they don't deserve in the first place. This holds true for both parties involved in the debate.

Also, what exactly is so morally wrong about being provoked or offended, being inquisitive about others' thoughts, and defending a personal opinion publicly? Isn't it how social progress is and was always achieved? Simply think about the dissent provoked by Galileo, Darwin, Freud, Martin Luther King, and yes, even Jesus Christ. What's the alternative to that? Living our lives in parallel and building hatred toward each other in our private, personal bubbles of loneliness? The notion of 'private happiness' might be very appealing to some, and it's becoming more and more accessible and sustainable in our modern era, but it's quite absurd and apathetical to me, not to mention very dangerous. We still exist as a community as far as I'm concerned. Individuality is about trying to use our personal experiences and beliefs for the greater good, not hiding from each other and admiring how 'tolerant' or 'respectful' we can appear by doing so.

So, are you only sticking around to get purposefully offended and criticize others for it, or are you actually up for a debate that englobes more than your own person?


My thoughts exactly!

Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 3:51:31 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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Nope - not at all. I respect other people's beliefs. Sometimes, I do wonder if there is a God. I'm not very religious but I'd like to believe that there is some higher being, somewhere in this universe. I think there is a difference between believing in God/s and believing in a religion.

What offends me are people who try to force other people to see their perspective in a hurtful way like terrorism.
BiMale73
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 3:54:22 AM

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newandimprovedxx wrote:
We nor anyone around here has the right to call any religion: misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful. Have you read any of the scriptures in detail to come to that conclusion? No religion's mission is any of the above. If anything all the rituals performed, all the reasons for doing anything are justified somehow. None of them which are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful.


That's just nonsense. It doesn't matter what the mission of a religion is, the outcome can still be misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful. And everyone may say so as well. Religion is a subject like any other, so we can have and express optinions about it like with any other subject. We have every right!

Religions aren't sacred.

Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 4:28:23 AM

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BiMale73 wrote:


That's just nonsense. It doesn't matter what the mission of a religion is, the outcome can still be misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful. And everyone may say so as well. Religion is a subject like any other, so we can have and express optinions about it like with any other subject. We have every right!

Religions aren't sacred.


Did I say religions are sacred? No need to put words in my mouth.

I'm saying we have no right to judge. No one does unless they've followed that religion days on end and seen the outcome. And really it differs from person to person. If you read my post properly I'm saying the scriptures are not intentionally trying to turn anyone into that list of shit. How people portray or how people interpret and act on it, really what business is that of yours or mine? Im saying calling one group of people misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful is a bit cliched. Considering the majority of people following religion are anything but.

Isn't that the whole point of this thread? I'm and atheist, does it offend you? I'm a person who is misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful, does that offend you? Hypothetical of course. I could be any of the above without being religious. That's all I'm saying.

Discuss a religion all you want. Judge them for no god damn reason, now that's wrong. No pun intended.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 4:32:07 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
BiMale73 wrote:


That's just nonsense. It doesn't matter what the mission of a religion is, the outcome can still be misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful. And everyone may say so as well. Religion is a subject like any other, so we can have and express optinions about it like with any other subject. We have every right!

Religions aren't sacred.


And FYI I'm an atheist myself. One that still respects and doesn't question the beliefs of theists or people in general. No offence.
BiMale73
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:09:43 AM

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newandimprovedxx wrote:
Did I say religions are sacred? No need to put words in my mouth.


No, and I never said you did. I said they're not.

newandimprovedxx wrote:
I'm saying we have no right to judge. No one does unless they've followed that religion days on end and seen the outcome. And really it differs from person to person. If you read my post properly I'm saying the scriptures are not intentionally trying to turn anyone into that list of shit. How people portray or how people interpret and act on it, really what business is that of yours or mine? Im saying calling one group of people misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful is a bit cliched. Considering the majority of people following religion are anything but.

Isn't that the whole point of this thread? I'm and atheist, does it offend you? I'm a person who is misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful, does that offend you? Hypothetical of course. I could be any of the above without being religious. That's all I'm saying.

Discuss a religion all you want. Judge them for no god damn reason, now that's wrong. No pun intended.


Try not to mix up religion, scripture and religious people. They're three different things.

Religion is not the same as scripture. Look at the bible. There are a couple of versions of it, but there are thousands of christian denominations. The bible certainly has misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent and hateful stuff in it and there are denominations that promote misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful stuff (some of it is the same, some isn't) and there are denominations that don't.

What people do to themselves, inspired by their faith, is none of my business. But when what they do involves others, then we (society) have every right to judge.

Of course you can be misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful as an atheist and being a believer doesn't mean you're any of that. Same goes for socialists, capitalists, fascists, greens, etc. Are you saying we don't have the right to judge any of their world views?

Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:12:11 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 674,138
BiMale73 wrote:


Try not to mix up religion, scripture and religious people. They're three different things.

Religion is not the same as scripture. Look at the bible. There are a couple of versions of it, but there are thousands of christian denominations. The bible certainly has misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent and hateful stuff in it and there are denominations that promote misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful stuff (some of it is the same, some isn't) and there are denominations that don't.

What people do to themselves, inspired by their faith, is none of my business. But when what they do involves others, then we (society) have every right to judge.

Of course you can be misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful as an atheist and being a believer doesn't mean you're any of that. Same goes for socialists, capitalists, fascists, greens, etc. Are you saying we don't have the right to judge any of their world views?


You seemed to imply the above.

Anyways I guess to each their own in a sense.

Religious scriptures are what make religions a religion, which in turn religious people are following. So they're interrelated in my opinion.

You say certain denominations are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful (I bet we both have that on copy paste still, lol), but not all right? Steph up there said that all religions on a whole are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful. That's what I'm saying seems wrong to judge. Isn't that the same thing as saying Hitler was a misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent and hateful person, so all Germans are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful? That's what I had a problem with. Fuck that was a lot of 'misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful'.

I have this one incident in my head and maybe that'll help get my point across. Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist. My skin color helped people assume that I was a Muslim and that got me judged and condemned. I was only 12 years old, not like I knew him personally. My skin color has nothing to do with it, but people judged that entire religion. Saying that Jihaad (religious war) was wrong. So a few people interpreted the concept wrong, why put the whole religion at question?

Yes society was effected in 9/11, but what right did that give anyone to judge the innocent? That's just straight up racism.

Being fascist, capitlasitic, communist, etc, those are all ideas. Religion isn't one of those, it's more so a lifestyle.
Lemme say I find the bible is a misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful book. See where that gets me?

But again, that's all my opinion. Not expecting anyone to agree with it. Nor am I sure if I'm getting my point across, but it just felt wrong to say something like that for me.
Guest
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:45:57 AM

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newandimprovedxx wrote:


Discuss a religion all you want. Judge them for no god damn reason, now that's wrong. No pun intended.


I'm glad there are at least a few people around who can understand this concept.
BiMale73
Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 7:19:45 AM

Rank: Forum Guru
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Joined: 7/4/2013
Posts: 814
Location: Basement
newandimprovedxx wrote:
Religious scriptures are what make religions a religion, which in turn religious people are following. So they're interrelated in my opinion.


Related, sure, but not the same. Judging a religion is not the same as judging it's believers.

newandimprovedxx wrote:
You say certain denominations are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful (I bet we both have that on copy paste still, lol), but not all right?


No, but mainly because I don't know all religions.
(And yes about the copy/paste ;))

newandimprovedxx wrote:
Isn't that the same thing as saying Hitler was a misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent and hateful person, so all Germans are misogynistic, divisive, limiting, hurtful, damaging, violent or hateful?


No, it's not. Ethnicity is something you're born with, religion is tought.

Being German doesn't automatically imply being supportive of nazism, being a nazi does. But even as a nazi you don't necessarily have to be all those things (Oskar Schindler perhaps), but you may be held accountable for supporting a system/organization that is.

newandimprovedxx wrote:
I have this one incident in my head and maybe that'll help get my point across. Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist. My skin color helped people assume that I was a Muslim and that got me judged and condemned. I was only 12 years old, not like I knew him personally. My skin color has nothing to do with it, but people judged that entire religion. Saying that Jihaad (religious war) was wrong. So a few people interpreted the concept wrong, why put the whole religion at question?

Yes society was effected in 9/11, but what right did that give anyone to judge the innocent? That's just straight up racism.


Yes it is racism and I'm sorry you've expienced that! But we were not talking about ethnicity or racism here so I want to leave that for another discussion.

We may judge the terrorists who commited these acts, the specific view/believe that led them to it, the parts of the religion that feeds that believe and the passages of the scripture that gave rise to these.

newandimprovedxx wrote:
Being fascist, capitlasitic, communist, etc, those are all ideas. Religion isn't one of those, it's more so a lifestyle.


No, it's not really different. They're all just world views. And that's exactly why i said that religion is not sacred. Don't treat it as if it is. Judge religion like any other world view: for what it stands for, for how its claims match reality and for its impact on society.

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