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Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 others. Is it rape culture, guns or something else? Options · View
Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 3:30:33 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
Friday Shooting Spree

As most all of you have probably heard already there was another murderous rampage by a young man this friday, this time in California. The link above has the story if you do not know yet.

As I was reading the details about this from several sources I couldn't help but wonder about some things. Some of which have been discussed here on lush but never in the same thread.


1. This man made it pretty clear that he was on edge. He made videos. Had purchased multiple guns and talked about these dark thoughts with several people to the extent that his parents and a counselor were prompted to contact the police before his shooting spree happened.

What can be done when all the warning signs are there but no crime has actually happened yet?

Is it ethical to take actions against someone who hasn't specifically threatened a person by name?


2. He stabbed some of his victims but also used guns to kill others and hurt a lot more. He had three hand guns and 400 rounds of ammunition remaining in his car.

Does the ease of acquiring guns and stockpiling ammunition have anything to do with wether someone actually goes through with these killing sprees?

If he only had knives, do you think he would have still done this in the first place?


Do you think he would have managed to do so much killing and injured as many as he did without guns?


3. People with mental illness, surprisingly, have a lower rate of violence than the general population. He claimed to be a nice guy and a true gentlemen in his you tube videos and was very hurt that women didn't see these qualities in him. He was jealous of what he felt were inferior men with beautiful women and he didn't understand why he was still a virgin because he had a nice car and nice clothes and glasses etc.

Is it a cop out to simply state these killers are crazy?

Do you think rape culture and a misogynist society contributed to this guy rationalizing his actions?


Do phrases like, "what if it was your daughter" instill in men that they should only care about what happens to a women if they are perceived as their property?


“Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”
-Margaret Atwood.


Do you agree with this quote? Do you think it's an exaggeration and was this just another crazy guy and that's it? That it isn't a misogynist society breeding men like this, it isn't gun culture, it's just a tragedy that just happened?









Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:15:09 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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What is the need for young teenagers to have guns ?? puzzles me ....
Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:18:54 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
lordsauron wrote:
What is the need for young teenagers to have guns ?? puzzles me ....


He was 22 years old. He was a former UC Santa Barbara student.



Buz
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:37:50 PM

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I don't blame inanimate objects. We need to look at how our culture is changing. What used to be extremely rare is becoming common. How about how the media glorifies these sick killers? A psychiatrist was talking about that on CNN today. I am sure there are many factors. Does our culture of individual entitlement have anything to do with it? Not being able to handle failure setting off some people with mental problems or something? Truthfully, I have no idea what's going through their heads. It makes no sense to me.

ChateauGrand
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:41:49 PM

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It's obvious it's a combination of male privilege, societal flaws in regards to the pressures put on men, and the "Nice guy" persona gone horribly, horribly wrong (As if it was ever right to begin with).

Males seem to be taught often that they have a right to a woman's body, so then when certain ones are denied that right, they find ways to express their anger, such as beating or killing, or raping. The nice guy persona seems to be a very slimy way of achieving it, wherein they try to act nice in order to bribe sex out of women, and in reality are usually horrible people. This man is a pretty good example of why it's such a toxic idea.
Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:46:48 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
Buz wrote:
I don't blame inanimate objects. We need to look at how our culture is changing. What used to be extremely rare is becoming common. How about how the media glorifies these sick killers? A psychiatrist was talking about that on CNN today. I am sure there are many factors. Truthfully, I have no idea what's going through their heads. It makes no sense to me.


Atomic bombs are inanimate objects as well but we have sanctions on certain countries obtaining them. Look what we did when we thought Iraq had an inanimate object.

I do think the way the media glorifies them and the way they give them instant fame is troublesome. But the news has to be reported doesn't it? Too bad there isn't a way to actually hide the picture of the killer and their name. I would imagine that for some the infamy is alluring.



HeraTeleia
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:47:05 PM

Rank: Top Shot

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Guns? Hell no. He was in California, one of the most restrictive states in the United States regarding gun sales and magazine capacity. I shoot Glock pistols competitively, and fuck if my 34 has ever killed anything but paper and steel. There is no sense to be made, no laws to be passed, that could make sense of this kind of one-off madness.

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Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:00:10 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
HeraTeleia wrote:
Guns? Hell no. He was in California, one of the most restrictive states in the United States regarding gun sales and magazine capacity. I shoot Glock pistols competitively, and fuck if my 34 has ever killed anything but paper and steel. There is no sense to be made, no laws to be passed, that could make sense of this kind of one-off madness.


Just because California is one of the most restrictive states when it comes to guns doesn't mean it is hard to obtain one. He had three with 400 rounds still left.

Would you be able to kill as many targets with a knife as you can with your glock in the little time you have to do it?

HeraTeleia wrote:
There is no sense to be made, no laws to be passed, that could make sense of this kind of one-off madness.


It's not one-off madness though. Spree killing is an ever increasing phenomenon that happens exclusively in the United States.



Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:01:47 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 688,894
now the question is why does these incidents happen in US but not in other countries ???
Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:09:50 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
ChateauGrand wrote:
It's obvious it's a combination of male privilege, societal flaws in regards to the pressures put on men, and the "Nice guy" persona gone horribly, horribly wrong (As if it was ever right to begin with).

Males seem to be taught often that they have a right to a woman's body, so then when certain ones are denied that right, they find ways to express their anger, such as beating or killing, or raping. The nice guy persona seems to be a very slimy way of achieving it, wherein they try to act nice in order to bribe sex out of women, and in reality are usually horrible people. This man is a pretty good example of why it's such a toxic idea.


What is very disturbing is that other young men are praising this guy's actions like he is some kind of hero. Like he's someone who stood up for the nice guys against women who ignore them.

















Those are just a few of the tons of comments like this on his youtube video threat.




Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:18:13 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
lordsauron wrote:
now the question is why does these incidents happen in US but not in other countries ???


There was a spree killing and an increase in gun violence in general in Australia a few decades ago and in reaction Australia cracked down on firearms hard and there hasn't been a spree killing since. All murders drastically declined. As of now only about 6% of the Australian population owns a gun.

Quote:
Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories determined by the National Firearm Agreement with different levels of control. The categories are:

Category A: Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles, and paintball markers. A "Genuine Reason" must be provided for a Category A firearm.

Category B: Centrefire rifles (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901. Apart from a "Genuine Reason", a "Genuine Need" must be demonstrated, including why a Category A firearm would not be suitable.

Category C: Semi-automatic rimfire rifles holding 10 or fewer rounds and pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding 5 or fewer rounds. Category C firearms are strongly restricted: only primary producers, occupational shooters, collectors and some clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.

Category D: Semi-automatic centrefire rifles, pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns holding more than 5 rounds. Functional Category D firearms are restricted to government agencies and a few occupational shooters. Collectors may own deactivated Category D firearms.

Category H: Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. (Albeit both SA and WA do not require deactivated handguns to be regarded as handguns after the deactivation process has taken place. This situation was the catalyst in QLD for the deactivation and diversion of thousands of handguns to the black-market – the loophole shut since 2001) This class is available to target shooters. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of 12 months the first 6 months using club handguns,then in the remainder of the last 6 month probationary licence, an application may be made, permit to acquire. A minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun and be a financial member of an approved Pistol Club.






Buz
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:21:06 PM

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Magical_felix wrote:


Atomic bombs are inanimate objects as well but we have sanctions on certain countries obtaining them. Look what we did when we thought Iraq had an inanimate object.

I do think the way the media glorifies them and the way they give them instant fame is troublesome. But the news has to be reported doesn't it? Too bad there usnt a way to actually hide the picture of the killer and their name. I would imagine that for some the infamy is alluring.


The psychiatrist on CNN made a few good points about them fantasizing about their celebrity that would follow their violence. What if the media refused to publish their name or picture? I don't know. Who really knows?

400 rounds of ammunition really is not much at all. I have many more times that, right now.

It seems to me he felt entitled to have a beautiful blonde girlfriend and he thought buying new clothes would help. Something is really wrong with all that. What you exhibited about guys praising his actions is extremely troublesome and proof that something is bad wrong in our society. But we know that spree killing is not exclusive to the USA. We've seen it recently in Norway and China, and what about the genocide in Africa and in the not distant past in Europe (old Yugoslavia)? And not to mention the constant mass terrorist killings that come from the Middle East. What the hell is wrong with people?

Guest
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:29:28 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 688,894
Buz wrote:



It seems to me he felt entitled to have a beautiful blonde girlfriend and he thought buying new clothes would help. Something is really wrong with all that. What you exhibited about guys praising his actions is extremely troublesome and proof that something is bad wrong in our society. But we know that spree killing is not exclusive to the USA. We've seen it recently in Norway and China, and what about the genocide in Africa and in the not distant past in Europe (old Yugoslavia)? And not to mention the constant mass terrorist killings that come from the Middle East. What the hell is wrong with people?


the point here being killing spree in colleges and schools ?? and yes its wrong to differentiate the killings (all are human)...but look at this it happens in schools and colleges (perpetrators are young men who is either still studying in college or just passed out)?? that ought to be stopped ....
Magical_felix
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:30:52 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
Buz wrote:


The psychiatrist on CNN made a few good points about them fantasizing about their celebrity that would follow their violence. What if the media refused to publish their name or picture? I don't know. Who really knows?



I think it's impossible to hide the identity really. The media will report it because it's news. Even if they chose not to publish the name and picture it would find it's way to the internet anyway.

Buz wrote:


But we know that spree killing is not exclusive to the USA. We've seen it recently in Norway and China, and what about the genocide in Africa and in the not distant past in Europe (old Yugoslavia)? And not to mention the constant mass terrorist killings that come from the Middle East. What the hell is wrong with people?


The killings in those countries are political or terrorism or some perceived cause. It is not quite the same as the spree killings here in America.

The recent one in China though was very much like Sandyhook. The guy in China managed to kill 7 and the guy at Sandyhook killed 20. Do you know what the difference between the two countries was?

Buz wrote:


400 rounds of ammunition really is not much at all. I have many more times that, right now.



Why would someone in an affluent town in Southern California need three handguns and 400 rounds of ammunition for self defense? Is he gonna fight off an army before the police arrive? For how long?

Can you tell me the last time having that many rounds of ammunition saved someone from a home invasion? Certainly that would make the news. How about how many times that amount of ammunition was used for evil, like a spree killing?



kornslayer1
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:53:49 PM

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I don't know, but obviously there is something wrong in this country. Instead of making them famous like Ted Bundy, just don't report it. Although, if someone doesn't, someone else will. So maybe there is a big part of the problem there, so it's gonna get air time no matter what. Maybe if the news stations shut down, that alone would cut this kind of thing down. I really couldn't say why this keeps happening, because I'm not in their mind. Maybe we should try to invent something so you can enter someone's mind. You can at least see what they were thinking, and see what the person was going through before it happened. Just a suggestion.

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Magical_felix
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 12:03:18 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
kornslayer1 wrote:
I don't know, but obviously there is something wrong in this country. Instead of making them famous like Ted Bundy, just don't report it. Although, if someone doesn't, someone else will. So maybe there is a big part of the problem there, so it's gonna get air time no matter what. Maybe if the news stations shut down, that alone would cut this kind of thing down. I really couldn't say why this keeps happening, because I'm not in their mind. Maybe we should try to invent something so you can enter someone's mind. You can at least see what they were thinking, and see what the person was going through before it happened. Just a suggestion.


Like on Minority Report? Might be pure Sci-Fi fantasy that.

The parents and a counsellor of this kid did report his behavior to the authorities because they were worried he'd do something like this. Can anything really be done when no crime has happened? Should the guns have been taken away from him at least? Is there enough money to have a cop trail these individuals that raise concerns but haven't done anything yet? I would say no, there isn't enough money for that.

Some people might consider certain themes in your writing or mine as alarming. They might think we should be watched.



elicia
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 12:37:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 8/31/2013
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Location: socal, United States
Some people are blaming women. How? That's crazy. How is a woman to blame? If a woman doesn't have the right to say no, then what rights does she have? Others say it's the guns. Others, still, say guns don't kill people...people kill people.

What we have done is we have created a society that grabs for the instant gratification, that wants to hang with the beautiful people (whoever you view the "beautiful people" to be), that does not want to be held responsible for what they do and furthermore, doesn't think they should be held responsible for what they have done. The Peoples Court and Judge Judy are taking it to the bank...cases so ridiculous they should never see the the inside of a court room. Just a bunch of irresponsible people trying to weasel their way out of responsibility.

But this is about murder.

How to deal with it all? Who knows. I sure don't have the answer. But i don't think the 2nd Amendment has done us any favors in this regard. An irresponsible and fucked up society should NOT have free access to weapons. But we do.

I felt so sorry for the fathers of one of the victims. He was broken because of this self-centered lunatic. He lost his boy and was crying...questioning how many more have to die before something is done. Well, I feel for him, his pain and his broken spirit. But honestly...if losing 26 children and teachers at Sandy Hook wasn't enough to change the culture in this "experiment" they call democracy...nothing will. Especially, not a whacked out dude from California.

May all the victims rest in peace and may the murderer rot in Hell.

And one last thing...to all men who are blaming women for what this guy has done...would you feel the same if it was a gay man who killed cuz he couldn't get laid? try that one on for size you you bunch of fucks! All those tweets and other postings from men hanging this on women cuz they wouldn't fuck the guy. What if he was gay and couldn't get his "piece of ass"?

Bend over gentlemen...or get on your knees and open wide! Now how do you feel about once a month "charity fucks"?
loud_bkr
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 9:59:22 AM

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A very sad state of affairs and my thoughts and condolences are with the victims and their families.

And to all those crackpots with those opinions blaming women for his actions, shame on you!


Magical_felix
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 10:27:33 AM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
elicia wrote:
Some people are blaming women. How? That's crazy. How is a woman to blame? If a woman doesn't have the right to say no, then what rights does she have? Others say it's the guns. Others, still, say guns don't kill people...people kill people.

What we have done is we have created a society that grabs for the instant gratification, that wants to hang with the beautiful people (whoever you view the "beautiful people" to be), that does not want to be held responsible for what they do and furthermore, doesn't think they should be held responsible for what they have done. The Peoples Court and Judge Judy are taking it to the bank...cases so ridiculous they should never see the the inside of a court room. Just a bunch of irresponsible people trying to weasel their way out of responsibility.

But this is about murder.

How to deal with it all? Who knows. I sure don't have the answer. But i don't think the 2nd Amendment has done us any favors in this regard. An irresponsible and fucked up society should NOT have free access to weapons. But we do.

I felt so sorry for the fathers of one of the victims. He was broken because of this self-centered lunatic. He lost his boy and was crying...questioning how many more have to die before something is done. Well, I feel for him, his pain and his broken spirit. But honestly...if losing 26 children and teachers at Sandy Hook wasn't enough to change the culture in this "experiment" they call democracy...nothing will. Especially, not a whacked out dude from California.

May all the victims rest in peace and may the murderer rot in Hell.

And one last thing...to all men who are blaming women for what this guy has done...would you feel the same if it was a gay man who killed cuz he couldn't get laid? try that one on for size you you bunch of fucks! All those tweets and other postings from men hanging this on women cuz they wouldn't fuck the guy. What if he was gay and couldn't get his "piece of ass"?

Bend over gentlemen...or get on your knees and open wide! Now how do you feel about once a month "charity fucks"?


Excellent points.

Do you think he was just some whacked out guy or do you think our whole society has been warped? Like the way we raise girls and boys. The way we teach girls to protect their drinks in clubs, to not walk alone, to cover up etc instead of teaching boys not to rape, not to hurt women, that women aren't something they are entitled to just by treating them normally. And do you think that has something to do with it, that that itself is what made him "whacked out" or do you think people like this will eventually do something like this regardless?



NookieMonster
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 2:00:13 PM

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Joined: 5/24/2014
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Location: United States
I think a lot of it is alienation. Alienation comes from not having a sense of community. America is consumerism run riot. It is not so much a nation as it is an economic cartel. There is such as thing as economy of scale beyond which any business, or nation for that matter, becomes unmanageable. Jimmy Carter was once quoted as saying that by and large this country is ungovernable. It is to simplistic to blame guns because there was never a time in which Americans did not have guns. Look at Switzerland, I have been there several times. If guns caused crime then the Swiss should have the highest crime rate in the world because they own more guns per capita than any other nation on earth. Indeed the Swiss require all to serve in the military, after which they get to keep their guns, which are military grade weapons far superior to what one can buy in Wal mart or gun stores. Japan, and indeed most East Asian nations, have far less crime than the U.S. Why is that? They still have a sense of community, America does not.
Guest
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 2:45:25 PM

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It's difficult to comment on such happenings when you live in a non-gun country like Britain. There are so many laws governing the use, ownership and storage of firearms particularly in populated areas. The main point here is that our police force don't carry arms unless in a case of a terrorist situation. If they did carry firearms as part of their day to day protection then so would the criminals, so gun crime here is kept to a low level.

I know that there are people in America that support guns stating that it is not guns that kill but people who kill, and while that is true, of course that is I believe not the argument. It's the ease of ownership that allows someone of mental disposition to gain access to firearms so easily.

Here in Britain as I go out at night, while we still have some violent crime, I never feel threatened or afraid - sometimes it can be a bit spooky but the dark does that to us all. Even in the cities that I visit I feel comfortable knowing that here we don't exist in a gun cultured country although yes in a few dark and dingy corners of a city here, there are a few illegally owned firearms in existence.

I know that there are many Americans who will disagree with my post here but one thing for sure......

There will be a lot of Americans who have buried loved ones who will agree with me, and the list is growing ever longer with each shooting and massacre that occurs.

I know that the police both here and in the U.S go through extensive training on not just how, but when to use firearms - even then it goes through some officers minds if it was the right decision when life has been lost. So how can untrained members of the public be expected to make the right call?

Anyway I hope I haven't offended anyone, it's just my opinion.
elicia
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 3:45:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 8/31/2013
Posts: 89
Location: socal, United States
Magical_felix wrote:


Excellent points.

Do you think he was just some whacked out guy or do you think our whole society has been warped? Like the way we raise girls and boys. The way we teach girls to protect their drinks in clubs, to not walk alone, to cover up etc instead of teaching boys not to rape, not to hurt women, that women aren't something they are entitled to just by treating them normally. And do you think that has something to do with it, that that itself is what made him "whacked out" or do you think people like this will eventually do something like this regardless?


Well we do teach girls to cover up and don't walk alone but I know that my brothers were also taught respect, rape is wrong, never hit a woman. And my brothers are respectful guys and strong at the same time. Just because these things are taught to men does NOT mean we are wimping down the male gender like that right wingnut Limburger claimed a short time ago. I think it is apparent the guy was whacked out. I think it's sad that the police didn't even look up the Youtube rants even tho this guy's parents alerted them about the videos.

LittleLuce comments about the culture in the UK with more of a no gun mentality. I truly think that is a better way to go although it is far too late for us. So....now Merica is jus goinna haveta live wid it and we will become a society of 'Mi case, tu casa...You kill my mama, I kill your mama.
elicia
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 3:48:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 8/31/2013
Posts: 89
Location: socal, United States
LittleLuce wrote:
It's difficult to comment on such happenings when you live in a non-gun country like Britain. There are so many laws governing the use, ownership and storage of firearms particularly in populated areas. The main point here is that our police force don't carry arms unless in a case of a terrorist situation. If they did carry firearms as part of their day to day protection then so would the criminals, so gun crime here is kept to a low level.

I know that there are people in America that support guns stating that it is not guns that kill but people who kill, and while that is true, of course that is I believe not the argument. It's the ease of ownership that allows someone of mental disposition to gain access to firearms so easily.

Here in Britain as I go out at night, while we still have some violent crime, I never feel threatened or afraid - sometimes it can be a bit spooky but the dark does that to us all. Even in the cities that I visit I feel comfortable knowing that here we don't exist in a gun cultured country although yes in a few dark and dingy corners of a city here, there are a few illegally owned firearms in existence.

I know that there are many Americans who will disagree with my post here but one thing for sure......

There will be a lot of Americans who have buried loved ones who will agree with me, and the list is growing ever longer with each shooting and massacre that occurs.

I know that the police both here and in the U.S go through extensive training on not just how, but when to use firearms - even then it goes through some officers minds if it was the right decision when life has been lost. So how can untrained members of the public be expected to make the right call?

Anyway I hope I haven't offended anyone, it's just my opinion.



I agree with completely. Can we come and live with you....lol.
elicia
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 3:48:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 8/31/2013
Posts: 89
Location: socal, United States
LittleLuce wrote:
It's difficult to comment on such happenings when you live in a non-gun country like Britain. There are so many laws governing the use, ownership and storage of firearms particularly in populated areas. The main point here is that our police force don't carry arms unless in a case of a terrorist situation. If they did carry firearms as part of their day to day protection then so would the criminals, so gun crime here is kept to a low level.

I know that there are people in America that support guns stating that it is not guns that kill but people who kill, and while that is true, of course that is I believe not the argument. It's the ease of ownership that allows someone of mental disposition to gain access to firearms so easily.

Here in Britain as I go out at night, while we still have some violent crime, I never feel threatened or afraid - sometimes it can be a bit spooky but the dark does that to us all. Even in the cities that I visit I feel comfortable knowing that here we don't exist in a gun cultured country although yes in a few dark and dingy corners of a city here, there are a few illegally owned firearms in existence.

I know that there are many Americans who will disagree with my post here but one thing for sure......

There will be a lot of Americans who have buried loved ones who will agree with me, and the list is growing ever longer with each shooting and massacre that occurs.

I know that the police both here and in the U.S go through extensive training on not just how, but when to use firearms - even then it goes through some officers minds if it was the right decision when life has been lost. So how can untrained members of the public be expected to make the right call?

Anyway I hope I haven't offended anyone, it's just my opinion.



I agree with completely. Can we come and live with you....lol.
HeraTeleia
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 4:15:10 PM

Rank: Top Shot

Joined: 1/25/2014
Posts: 1,106
Location: Canada
Magical_Felix, you wrote this... "Would you be able to kill as many targets with a knife as you can with your glock [sic] in the little time you have to do it?"

I don't know. In the Chinese incident, there were 46 casualties, all inflicted with a knife. I do know that I would much rather take on someone wielding a gun than someone wielding a knife. Look at the Giffords shooting. That guy was disarmed by being tackled, including by one man who did have a pistol on his own person. Someone with a knife is by far more difficult to take out without being injured oneself than is someone with a pistol.

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Magical_felix
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 4:33:29 PM

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Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 5,705
Location: California
HeraTeleia wrote:
Magical_Felix, you wrote this... "Would you be able to kill as many targets with a knife as you can with your glock [sic] in the little time you have to do it?"

I don't know. In the Chinese incident, there were 46 casualties, all inflicted with a knife. I do know that I would much rather take on someone wielding a gun than someone wielding a knife. Look at the Giffords shooting. That guy was disarmed by being tackled, including by one man who did have a pistol on his own person. Someone with a knife is by far more difficult to take out without being injured oneself than is someone with a pistol.


Are you sure there were 46 dead in a mass stabbing in china? I see where there were 6... I see another incident where a guy stabbed over 20 but they all survived. I see another where 29 died but that was a coordinated attack by at least four men who were actual militants. The chinese government suspects a Muslim separatist group is behind the stabbings but can't prove it.

As for a guy with a knife being more dangerous than a guy with a gun... I don't know... I think I'd rather fight a guy that was pointing a knife at me instead of a gun. By your rational we should just give our soldiers swords... I wonder if there is a police officer here that can answer wether he'd rather have to taser a guy with a knife or a guy with a gun. I would suspect he'd chose the guy with the knife.



dpw
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 6:00:04 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 4,458
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
LittleLuce wrote:
It's difficult to comment on such happenings when you live in a non-gun country like Britain. There are so many laws governing the use, ownership and storage of firearms particularly in populated areas. The main point here is that our police force don't carry arms unless in a case of a terrorist situation. If they did carry firearms as part of their day to day protection then so would the criminals, so gun crime here is kept to a low level.

I know that there are people in America that support guns stating that it is not guns that kill but people who kill, and while that is true, of course that is I believe not the argument. It's the ease of ownership that allows someone of mental disposition to gain access to firearms so easily.

Here in Britain as I go out at night, while we still have some violent crime, I never feel threatened or afraid - sometimes it can be a bit spooky but the dark does that to us all. Even in the cities that I visit I feel comfortable knowing that here we don't exist in a gun cultured country although yes in a few dark and dingy corners of a city here, there are a few illegally owned firearms in existence.

I know that there are many Americans who will disagree with my post here but one thing for sure......

There will be a lot of Americans who have buried loved ones who will agree with me, and the list is growing ever longer with each shooting and massacre that occurs.

I know that the police both here and in the U.S go through extensive training on not just how, but when to use firearms - even then it goes through some officers minds if it was the right decision when life has been lost. So how can untrained members of the public be expected to make the right call?

Anyway I hope I haven't offended anyone, it's just my opinion.

I just had to check your age, before posting this.
The reason why we have such strict gun control laws is a result of a massacre at a Primary School in Dunblane, Scotland. This happened when you were only one year old. Andy Murray was at the school when the gunman killed sixteen people, mainly children under ten years of age.
dpw
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 6:19:44 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 4,458
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
Magical_felix wrote:

The parents and a counsellor of this kid did report his behavior to the authorities because they were worried he'd do something like this. Can anything really be done when no crime has happened? Should the guns have been taken away from him at least? Is there enough money to have a cop trail these individuals that raise concerns but haven't done anything yet? I would say no, there isn't enough money for that.

Some people might consider certain themes in your writing or mine as alarming. They might think we should be watched.

I don't know about the USA but in the UK he'd probably be locked up, especially if his parents reported him.
We can get people sectioned under the Mental Health Act if they are thought to be a danger to society or themselves. They face a psychiatric evaluation to determine the state of their mind. Then a judge decides if they should be held or released.
Your country is steeped in gun culture and that is hard to break. The whole point about the Second Amendment is archaic. It was brought in at a time when the country was unsure if Britain was going to try and reclaim the colony.
LadyX
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 10:05:43 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,804
Magical_felix wrote:
He was jealous of what he felt were inferior men with beautiful women and he didn't understand why he was still a virgin because he had a nice car and nice clothes and glasses etc.


Behold, the Beta-Male Extremist®

"But he's so nice..." Not when you look into those resentful eyes he's not. He's angry, and he doesn't understand why he never gets the girl. But he'll show them all, oh yes he will.

Quote:

Is it a cop out to simply state these killers are crazy?

Almost. At the end of the day it does still come down to one guy who was crazy enough to commit mass murder, no matter what big talk or dark thoughts he engaged in up to that point. That said....
Quote:

Do you think rape culture and a misogynist society contributed to this guy rationalizing his actions?

You bet your ass it does. Not only is rape culture and misogyny rampant to begin with, but here was a guy who actively sought out PUA (pickup artist) culture, giving hucksters his money in exchange for so-called wisdom toward getting women to have sex with him, then became part of the (even more pathetic) movement against PUA's. In other words, he still wanted to believe that shit works and is perfectly okay to engage in, even though he got burned. Not as burned as he felt by actual rejection from women, but still...
Quote:

Do phrases like, "what if it was your daughter" instill in men that they should only care about what happens to a women if they are perceived as their property?

Yes, because of course women don't have value unless they're relatives or love interests of somebody, right?


Quote:

“Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”


Lots of truth in that.

There's lots of default misogyny that many men don't even detect. Hell, many girls don't detect it until they're old enough to know the difference.

"Oh, it's not normal for men to hang onto that hug a little too long?"
"Oh, it's not normal for guys to grope me in a crowd? I thought I just had to shrug it off. Jerks are jerks, after all."
"Its ok to be offended by people staring at my body? Its acceptable to be creeped out by that?"

Or how about the policeman that asks what you were wearing when you report a sexual assault? Or how about people that ask why you stay in an abusive relationship instead of asking why the fuck anyone thinks its ok to abuse?

Fritz2011
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 11:06:35 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 4/22/2014
Posts: 27
Location: Lubbock, United States
I go with culture, to a large extent.

Look at all the violent movies and TV shows with all the incredibly vicious villains. Look at all the news outlets who pour self-indulgent commentary on incidents like these. Those reporters and commentators weren't on the scene any more than I was. Posting that video he made on national TV newscasts and pairing it with a distraught father's wild ravings are at best cynical and cruel ratings ploys; at worst attempts to overthrow the government of the United States. (I've held that latter view since Watergate and acidly point out that Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein would have been killed or thrown in prison in an astonishing number of countries on treason charges. Check Julian Assange and Edward Snowden.)

Not all murders or murderers use guns. The 9/11 skyjackers didn't. Ted Bundy didn't. John Wayne Gacy didn't. A Texas sociopath named Dean Corll didn't (his reign of terror ended when one of his accomplices shot him). The Boston Strangler didn't. The serial killer in Michigan whose name escapes me didn't. Neither did those Connecticut men who invaded a home and burned it with the family inside. You might as well blame homosexuality for it, in the cases of Gacy, Corll and the Michigan killer, who had 75 murders between them. (Believe me, people DID blame homosexuality for those killers' actions. I spent many years there might be someone who would rape and murder me, especially after a local child murder.)

There is also a constitutional question here. If we abolish the Second Amendment, how about the entire Bill of Rights? The First Amendment is very unpopular because of its abuses. Interestingly, so are some others. When the Oklahoma murderer died horribly from lethal injection, my local newspaper ran an editorial about the monstrosity of his crime and said he deserved all of his agony for what he put an innocent girl through. Similarly, very few people care that the hangman at Nuremberg was an idiot who let some Nazis swing for 15 to 30 minutes, slowly strangling. The crime deserved the punishment and much more, they say. It's almost like they are saying there is no Hell in the afterlife, and by extension that means no Heaven and no God. If that was the case, what's to prevent us or anybody from taking violent revenge on killers, including innocent suspects? The situation can get out of hand very quickly, as every war shows us.

The video should never have been shown. The commentators should have just shut up voluntarily. No one should make an accusation without having unimpeachable proof. Tempers should cool down instead of being fanned.

I haven't said anything about gun laws. Actually, someone who tries to pull a gun on someone who has the drop on him had better be a better shot than Wyatt Earp at his most mythologized. Earp himself apparently talked people into setting down their weapons quite often. I can't imagine somebody fast-drawing on an assailant and shooting him in a vital spot at greater than arm's length, and I doubt many police officers can do it. Gunsmoke, the TV series, often counted on Matt Dillon's assailants drawing super-fast and pulling the trigger and either missing completely or hitting him in the non-shooting shoulder (this was the focus of the very first episode, in fact). I wouldn't want to get in a gunfight and hope I never do. If it was the only way to stop a crazed killer, yes, but I'm not going to pack some slow double-action .38 snubnose or something faster that could shoot me in the foot or shoot a bystander.

This also gets my goat because it hurts men everywhere who don't have a girlfriend and don't know how to get one. Even staying with a girlfriend is extremely difficult because she has a mind of her own and just may not be attracted to you for a reason you don't know. It's definitely better to not make a scene and be wildly jealous. It may be horrible to lose her (I say this from experience), but making a scene and trying to force her to stay -- what good does that do?

My 2 cents
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