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The President of the USA and why your Rate has to Skyrocket Options · View
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 8:39:41 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 659,414
"Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4


With the US Economy at best weak and in the last qrt GDP dropped a full 1 %. It must be the time to jerk the US worker by the wallet again.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 8:47:12 AM

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Does the explanation not make sense to you? Am I supposed to be outraged?
HeraTeleia
Posted: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:04:30 AM

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Joined: 1/25/2014
Posts: 1,026
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Sooo....you'd prefer that we not address the issues of climate change as related to greenhouse gasses? I'd rather pay a few more dollars on my monthly utilities bill than have sea levels raise by several feet in twenty years, but hey, that's just me.

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Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:06:55 PM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 659,414
HeraTeleia wrote:
Sooo....you'd prefer that we not address the issues of climate change as related to greenhouse gasses? I'd rather pay a few more dollars on my monthly utilities bill than have sea levels raise by several feet in twenty years, but hey, that's just me.


SO when you get your bill each month you send in extra cash, right?

As for climate change, you stopped driving , using AC , right?
CleverFox
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:38:31 AM

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Joined: 1/25/2012
Posts: 483
Location: United States
It is funny but I have only heard about how much these regulations are going to raise electricity prices and do very little for the environment in advertisements run by the coal lobby.
Milik_Redman
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 11:49:19 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher
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Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4,753
Location: somewhere deep under the Earth, United States
My house runs on a 7kwh Solar system. This was installed at no cost to me and for it I pay 200.00 per month.

My home is 3700 Sq ft with 6 bedrooms and a pool. For all of that, my grid cost this month is 36 bucks.

The only reason not to go green is pure stupidity.
ChuckEPoo
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:21:50 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/30/2013
Posts: 1,052
Location: Ventura, United States
First of all, these government rebates for solar panels are ridiculous. The same with the electric cars. Ok before you big government liberals jump my shit. I own two hybrid cars and personally installed solar panels on my house. I did NOT take the rebates on the cars or panels. Why, you ask? Because I am not going to ask a bankrupt government for a hand out. Just because your green doesn't mean the American people owe you. We are borrowing 40 cents out of every dollar spent. What part of bankrupt do you liberals not understand? If some one doesn't get some common fiscal sense and reign in the spending, it won't matter how much you save on electricity. If the dollar collapses your savings and retirement funds will disappear overnight. It won't matter if you blame it on Bush or not.
Milik_Redman
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 3:08:54 AM

Rank: Internet Philosopher
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Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4,753
Location: somewhere deep under the Earth, United States
ChuckEPoo wrote:
First of all, these government rebates for solar panels are ridiculous. The same with the electric cars. Ok before you big government liberals jump my shit. I own two hybrid cars and personally installed solar panels on my house. I did NOT take the rebates on the cars or panels. Why, you ask? Because I am not going to ask a bankrupt government for a hand out. Just because your green doesn't mean the American people owe you. We are borrowing 40 cents out of every dollar spent. What part of bankrupt do you liberals not understand? If some one doesn't get some common fiscal sense and reign in the spending, it won't matter how much you save on electricity. If the dollar collapses your savings and retirement funds will disappear overnight. It won't matter if you blame it on Bush or not.


With all due respect, rebates on green energy and the HERO program are not why the US is going broke. Indeed, these programs provide a foundation for an important suite of technologies that are vital to the future of the country and the world. They are allowing a fledgling industry to survive and grow when otherwise they would be stopped by a massive corporate power in big oil. As the use of government funds go, this is one area where they actually know what they are doing.

Where we blow huge amounts of money are the 600 billion a year military industrial complex and entitlement programs that pay pensions to retired government employees.

Our tax code is also a huge problem. While those on the right complain about any hike in taxes, what we pay compared to the rest of the western world is way too low. We make this worse by inflicting an unfair burden on small business and the middle class when huge corporate interests and the so called one percent find ways to dodge their responsibility.
I agree that there is a huge issue with the National debt, but trying to argue that ad reason to stop green subsidies simply doesn't make sense.
ChuckEPoo
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:04:10 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/30/2013
Posts: 1,052
Location: Ventura, United States
Milik_Redman wrote:


With all due respect, rebates on green energy and the HERO program are not why the US is going broke. Indeed, these programs provide a foundation for an important suite of technologies that are vital to the future of the country and the world. They are allowing a fledgling industry to survive and grow when otherwise they would be stopped by a massive corporate power in big oil. As the use of government funds go, this is one area where they actually know what they are doing.

Where we blow huge amounts of money are the 600 billion a year military industrial complex and entitlement programs that pay pensions to retired government employees.

Our tax code is also a huge problem. While those on the right complain about any hike in taxes, what we pay compared to the rest of the western world is way too low. We make this worse by inflicting an unfair burden on small business and the middle class when huge corporate interests and the so called one percent find ways to dodge their responsibility.
I agree that there is a huge issue with the National debt, but trying to argue that ad reason to stop green subsidies simply doesn't make sense.


You put words in my mouth. I did not defend the military complex or the giant entitlement program. You say we have the lowest tax system in the world? Better check those stats. I guess I am part of the the ten percent that pays eighty percent of the taxes. I am in agreement that the tax system is broken. Especially when almost fifty percent of people pay no taxes at all. However the broken tax system is another discussion altogether. The issue was green.

I built and operated a manufacturing business in California. I employed well over a hundred employees and was voluntarily green. I love this country and would never do anything to harm it. Here is a good example about how the taxes and green are married. I sprayed finishes of various natures on our products. I spent a couple hundred thousand dollars at my own expense to build an elaborate spray filtration and recovery system. I could have done what my competitors did and just pump it into the environment but I would never consider that. So one day an EPA inspector showed up to check out my recovery system. He said he was impressed but I now needed to pay an assessment of $9,000 a year to operate it. Are you fucking kidding me? So, I called my representative and ask him where my 9 grand goes to. Does it go to help the environment? Nope it goes into the general fund. So instead of rewarding me for doing the right thing they taxed me more. That is just one of many stories I can tell about government run wild. The rebate and incentive program would be fabulous if there was money to spend. But there is not.

Our dollar is teetering on the brink of collapse. Entitlement programs are run amok. Graft and corruption is the norm. The military has already been cut by a third already but unless you want to leave us totally defenseless we still need it. Close all those bases in Germany and Japan. They are proven economic powers and don't need us as their police force. Reign in this foreign aid. Particularly to countries that hate us. As a business man, there is one basic rule to live by. Don't spend what you don't have. That should be the government mantra but sadly it is not. The blame game solves nothing. We've tried the spend out way to prosperity. How's that working out? I encourage green in every way but we as a nation need to use all our recourses to be energy efficient. Solar, wind, wave, nuclear, gas, and oil. As technology increases these will become more efficient. But the immediate need is to save our economy. Build a stronger manufacturing base, and do less outsourcing. That creates jobs builds a stronger country.

Btw. What we are doing here is what is what is needed. To have civil discussion. To become passionate and care. This isn't a democrat vs republican issue. It is an American one. I would rather have ten people oppose me and care enough to research the issues than to just apathetically walk away.

Big brother is not only watching you, he has his hand in your pocket. If you, like me are tired of this country looking like a circus, we need to stop electing clowns.
Milik_Redman
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:31:16 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher
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Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4,753
Location: somewhere deep under the Earth, United States
ChuckEPoo wrote:


You put words in my mouth. I did not defend the military complex or the giant entitlement program.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I elaborated on the thought. Surely it's acceptable to point out where the money is truly being wasted.

You say we have the lowest tax system in the world? Better check those stats. I guess I am part of the the ten percent that pays eighty percent of the taxes. I am in agreement that the tax system is broken. Especially when almost fifty percent of people pay no taxes at all. However the broken tax system is another discussion altogether. The issue was green.

I'm scratching my head here. You made the point that the country was broke. I pointed out in response that the reason were broke is taxes, so I miss how you can now say this isn't the issue? I thought your point was how broke we are? If you are paying 80% of your income in taxes I commend you. You are also not taking advantage of your tax breaks. Last point here, I said we have the lowest tax burden in the western world. I'm sure there's someone who pays less, but you won't find them in Europe or Japan.

I built and operated a manufacturing business in California. I employed well over a hundred employees and was voluntarily green. I love this country and would never do anything to harm it. Here is a good example about how the taxes and green are married. I sprayed finishes of various natures on our products. I spent a couple hundred thousand dollars at my own expense to build an elaborate spray filtration and recovery system. I could have done what my competitors did and just pump it into the environment but I would never consider that. So one day an EPA inspector showed up to check out my recovery system. He said he was impressed but I now needed to pay an assessment of $9,000 a year to operate it. Are you fucking kidding me? So, I called my representative and ask him where my 9 grand goes to. Does it go to help the environment? Nope it goes into the general fund. So instead of rewarding me for doing the right thing they taxed me more. That is just one of many stories I can tell about government run wild. The rebate and incentive program would be fabulous if there was money to spend. But there is not.

All of that I accept. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a homeowner going green, but it find it likely true. My profession is aerospace and I oversee well over a hundred people doing jobs that include heat treating and industrial plating. You want to see government oversight? Try using cyanide solutions to plate aircraft parts. As I said though, this is irrelevant to my original point that personal rebates for going green are a good idea.

Our dollar is teetering on the brink of collapse. Entitlement programs are run amok. Graft and corruption is the norm.

Agreed

The military has already been cut by a third already but unless you want to leave us totally defenseless we still need it. Close all those bases in Germany and Japan. They are proven economic powers and don't need us as their police force. Reign in this foreign aid. Particularly to countries that hate us.

Agreed again. The US spends more on its military than the next ten nations in the world. This money isn't being spent to defend us. It's being spent to defend Europe, Japan, South Korea and Israel. All of these except the last are economic powerhouses in their own right and my opinion is that if they want to be safe, they should be spending the money themselves. We could easily slash military spending by 80% if all we were doing is defending ourselves. Instead, we demand the right to project power right into the faces of the Russians and Chinese. Then we wonder why they get pissed. It's asinine.

As a business man, there is one basic rule to live by. Don't spend what you don't have. That should be the government mantra but sadly it is not. The blame game solves nothing. We've tried the spend out way to prosperity. How's that working out? I encourage green in every way but we as a nation need to use all our recourses to be energy efficient. Solar, wind, wave, nuclear, gas, and oil. As technology increases these will become more efficient. But the immediate need is to save our economy. Build a stronger manufacturing base, and do less outsourcing. That creates jobs builds a stronger country.


As a businessman, you should also understand the concept of investment in modern technology. If your equipment and procedures are antiquated, you cannot compete no matter how fiscally responsible you are. Investing into alternate fuels and encouraging home based green energy reduces our need to purchase oil from oversees. It keeps our environment clean and it create as working infrastructure in our country for our people. At the cost, that's a hell of a payback.
She
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 2:00:19 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,546
Location: Europe
Milik_Redman wrote:


The US spends more on its military than the next ten nations in the world. This money isn't being spent to defend us. It's being spent to defend Europe, Japan, South Korea and Israel. All of these except the last are economic powerhouses in their own right and my opinion is that if they want to be safe, they should be spending the money themselves. We could easily slash military spending by 80% if all we were doing is defending ourselves. Instead, we demand the right to project power right into the faces of the Russians and Chinese. Then we wonder why they get pissed. It's asinine.


I am quite curious about this statement and have few questions if you don't mind.

1. Is this your opinion, US citizens or US government?
2. Do you think there is agenda behind why US is forcing themselves to protect the world?
3. Why do you think US tries quite hard to be world police officer?
4. Don't you think that if US government would want to slash military spending by 80%, they would do it? Who is stopping them?

Thanks.
ChuckEPoo
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 2:50:49 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/30/2013
Posts: 1,052
Location: Ventura, United States
Milik_Redman wrote:


As a businessman, you should also understand the concept of investment in modern technology. If your equipment and procedures are antiquated, you cannot compete no matter how fiscally responsible you are. Investing into alternate fuels and encouraging home based green energy reduces our need to purchase oil from oversees. It keeps our environment clean and it create as working infrastructure in our country for our people. At the cost, that's a hell of a payback.


We are not that far apart. I do know the value of investing in technology and constantly researched the most technological methods of manufacturing. I used CNC and other automated equipment. However, unlike my deep pocket Uncle Sam, that constant retooling cost me money. I wasn't a non profit organization. If I mismanaged the business the implications would be disastrous. I was responsible for more than myself. There were all my employees to consider. You say I didn't take advantage of my tax breaks? I had a qualified tax attorney that looked at every angle. The problem was that the tax system only allowed 50,000 max to initially deduct on new equipment. Which doesn't help when you are purchasing 300,000 dollars of new tools. Of course there is a complex depreciation code that I really never fully understood. That is why most manufactures lease most new equipment. But as unwise as it sounds, I stuck by my principle of not spending what I can't afford. You seem to be questioning my wisdom in operating my business. I started a business with 6,000 dollars and built it into a multi million dollar corporation. I appreciate your obvious intelligence and management skills. You would have fit in well with our business. However, managing employees and owning the business are not the same thing. The biggest difference is risk. BTW I didn't say I paid eighty percent of my income in taxes. I said I was part of the ten percent of tax payers that paid eighty percent of the taxes. The tax code is antiquated and needs fixing. I have many articles I have written on solutions but that is for another time. I do have a handle on your industry from a users perspective. I was a military helicopter pilot. The waste I saw in equipment and materials was mind boggling. I agree with you about the cuts in the military complex. Maybe not as much as 80% but a bunch. The biggest problem with entitlements is not the programs but the mismanagement of them. That is why I am not for expanding government and regulatory departments. Government will grow government and regulators will produce more and more regulations. After all that is their job. Enough is enough! Government is like people. It is much easier to become fat and lazy than fit and focused.
Milik_Redman
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 4:10:44 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher
Moderator

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4,753
Location: somewhere deep under the Earth, United States
She wrote:


I am quite curious about this statement and have few questions if you don't mind.

1. Is this your opinion, US citizens or US government?
2. Do you think there is agenda behind why US is forcing themselves to protect the world?
3. Why do you think US tries quite hard to be world police officer?
4. Don't you think that if US government would want to slash military spending by 80%, they would do it? Who is stopping them?

Thanks.


These are good questions.
1-3. Post world war 2, our people have quietly been brought up thinking that it's our right to be a superpower. We have been taught that isolationism is the only other choice. I don't see our media ever explaining world events in a way that might let out voters see these issues from another countries point of view. Ukraine, for instance is one we should have stayed out of. Anyone who understood the history would have realized how the Russians were going to react. This was between Europe and them, why did we have to become involved? It's become habit in many ways. It doesn't even occur to most Americans that we don't need an empire. We are just so used to having it we can't see the trouble it causes us.

They are afraid of backlash from the Right. Observe what is happening now. China and Russia are trying (quite understandably) to solidify their international positions and to push us away from their borders. Neither is threatening a major ally in any real way, that just want our military out of reach. How does the Right react? By talking about their aggression and their desire to break our strangle hold on power. Hell, the Chinese just want us to keep our carriers out of launch range for aircraft and as Putin himself said, had he not acted, in five years Sevastopol would have had a NATO navel base in it.

Americans can never see how this looks from the other side. Imagine if Hawaii desired to secede and link themselves financially to China? How do you think that would play out? We'd do exactly what Putin did. The problem is, we are too far away from the rest of the world to understand its views.
Milik_Redman
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 4:14:36 PM

Rank: Internet Philosopher
Moderator

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4,753
Location: somewhere deep under the Earth, United States
ChuckEPoo wrote:


We are not that far apart. I do know the value of investing in technology and constantly researched the most technological methods of manufacturing. I used CNC and other automated equipment. However, unlike my deep pocket Uncle Sam, that constant retooling cost me money. I wasn't a non profit organization. If I mismanaged the business the implications would be disastrous. I was responsible for more than myself. There were all my employees to consider. You say I didn't take advantage of my tax breaks? I had a qualified tax attorney that looked at every angle. The problem was that the tax system only allowed 50,000 max to initially deduct on new equipment. Which doesn't help when you are purchasing 300,000 dollars of new tools. Of course there is a complex depreciation code that I really never fully understood. That is why most manufactures lease most new equipment. But as unwise as it sounds, I stuck by my principle of not spending what I can't afford. You seem to be questioning my wisdom in operating my business. I started a business with 6,000 dollars and built it into a multi million dollar corporation. I appreciate your obvious intelligence and management skills. You would have fit in well with our business. However, managing employees and owning the business are not the same thing. The biggest difference is risk. BTW I didn't say I paid eighty percent of my income in taxes. I said I was part of the ten percent of tax payers that paid eighty percent of the taxes. The tax code is antiquated and needs fixing. I have many articles I have written on solutions but that is for another time. I do have a handle on your industry from a users perspective. I was a military helicopter pilot. The waste I saw in equipment and materials was mind boggling. I agree with you about the cuts in the military complex. Maybe not as much as 80% but a bunch. The biggest problem with entitlements is not the programs but the mismanagement of them. That is why I am not for expanding government and regulatory departments. Government will grow government and regulators will produce more and more regulations. After all that is their job. Enough is enough! Government is like people. It is much easier to become fat and lazy than fit and focused.


Yeah, we really do see many of the same issues. I'm a libertarian, so my views seem to cross over quite a bit.
Guest
Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:44:28 AM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 659,414
Melman wrote:
"Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4


With the US Economy at best weak and in the last qrt GDP dropped a full 1 %. It must be the time to jerk the US worker by the wallet again.


UPdate,,,,, US Economy drops by 2.9 %

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