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Decriminalizing Recreational Drugs - Pros and Cons Options · View
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Monday, June 14, 2010 9:04:35 PM

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In the wake of the ongoing violence in Mexico with the drug cartels, and the financial burden in the rest of the world of enforcing laws/penalties on recreational drugs, I am wondering what your opinion is on the decriminalization of drugs in our society.

I came across this interesting article looking at the case of Portugal decriminalizing drugs, and it seems to have had positive effects. I've included an excerpt below.

Do you think there is value in considering the decriminalization of drugs, or do you feel this will lead to greater issues?
Are there some drugs that seem ok to decriminalize, and others that don't?

Share your thoughts and opinions...

Quote: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization

In the face of a growing number of deaths and cases of HIV linked to drug abuse, the Portuguese government in 2001 tried a new tack to get a handle on the problem—it decriminalized the use and possession of heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other illicit street drugs. The theory: focusing on treatment and prevention instead of jailing users would decrease the number of deaths and infections.

Five years later, the number of deaths from street drug overdoses dropped from around 400 to 290 annually, and the number of new HIV cases caused by using dirty needles to inject heroin, cocaine and other illegal substances plummeted from nearly 1,400 in 2000 to about 400 in 2006, according to a report released recently by the Cato Institute, a Washington, D.C, libertarian think tank.





Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:37:28 AM

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yah hot topic, I think they should legalize weed and maybe others but I draw the line at heroin,tic(not sure what they call that here) and cocaine. I've seen the effects of those drugs on people and it is disgusting. But I don't think legalizing weed is a bad thing especially if say the goverment controlled it i.e. grew it,distributed it in pharmacies at fixed prices and you would know whatever drugs you had been sold were pure and good quality.They could then tax it and put it back into the economy.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:36:29 AM

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The smarter thing to do would be decriminalize marijuana and ash. (coke and heroine should be illegal though)

Look Nederlands, for instance. The goverment earn millions of euros in taxes, and the country has one of the lowest percentages of drug abuse in europe. People dont crave for things they have access to.

LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:16:06 AM

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I've always heard things like that article points out, that by legalizing drugs, or at least by not making it a felony to sell, buy, or own drugs, that drug deaths and crime both drop. I smoke weed fairly often, and take other drugs on occasion. The idea of not having to buy from some unreliable stoner, or from some thug-life gangster, certainly seems good. The idea of lower prices, better quality control, and no worries that I'm being set up or that I'll get caught is good too.

With coke, X, and other drugs- I understand people getting uncomfortable with them.

Once you go from snorting the coke to shooting it, your chances of getting addicted and fucking with your own life go way up. I've never shot or freebased cocaine- once you cook it or inject it, it's a different animal. Same with Heroin, that's a tough one that I won't even touch. You get no fun period with heroin. It's the best thing you ever tried on the first dose, and after that its a chase for that amazing place you first went to, then a fight for your life. Anybody who says different based on experience is a lucky person.

You want to keep those things illegal, I can at least see the logic, but it seems WAY fucked up to send people to prison for it. What are they guilty of, hurting themselves? I know, I know, if people are allowed to hurt themselves, they end up in the hospital and taxpayers pay for the bills and job loss hurts society etc. etc., but some examples, like the one DD has above, show that use goes down if it's not a crime.

If it was legal, it would be regulated. The cartels across the border wouldn't be so profitable, and then maybe they wouldn't be so deadly. The gangsters on the street, from the sets that control the supply and distribute, to the wannabes that sell to their little homies on the block, wouldn't have such a moneymaker- then kids could go back to hanging out instead of busting down doors when some poor fool can't pay. The phrase 'drug deal gone bad' to explain a homicide could go away. The junkies may not rob as many people, or houses, or break into as many cars, if they aren't having to deal with these same thugs that string them out and threaten their life. Drugs give them the urge, but the fact that drugs are illegal means nothing to people like me, I'll buy weed when I want it, and other things when I want it, and try to be smart about where it comes from. So if me and others I know don't mind that it's illegal, and do our thing anyways, do you think it means anything to the junkie on the street? No way.

X is dangerous to some people, I know there have been deaths, but I think the main problem with X is that it gets laced with other stuff. You think you're getting a nice hit of exstasy for the night, buying from some random dude, and you end up with a bomb of some sort, and before long you aren't really sure what's going on. It happens, but not that often.

Then there is the argument that drugs are 'wrong'. I don't know if they mean it's unchristian, or what, but if legalizing them meant that the court system wasn't as clogged, the prices weren't as gouged, the quality of drugs was more reliable, the government could even make money through taxes, and our rights weren't violated because of some crazy drug war where they think they have to catch guys slinging the rock before they catch REAL criminals, then I don't know how anybody couldn't see that no matter how 'wrong' drugs might be, it's even more wrong to make it a serious crime.



MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:19:56 AM

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Drugs can ruin peoples' lives - there's no question about it. Any substance that will make a mother want to sell her pre-teen daughter into sexual slavery so she can get another hit is a bad thing. I've been addicted before, and it's not fun. There's no joy in trying to kick, lying in bed with the room spinning, sweating your ass off one minute, freezing cold the next, and seeing things you KNOW can't be real, while every joint and bone in your body screams at you for relief. If I can get addicted, anybody can. That said... if I can kick, ANYBODY CAN!

I've said all that (which very few people in my real life know about, by the way) so I can say this: People that are addicted KNOW they're addicted and they want to stay addicted. Out of fear, or regrets, maybe. Whatever problems they had that MADE them into addicts, whatever ghosts they see around them are still haunting them, forcing them to try and make an escape. Forcing them to buy their drugs from questionable sources, at outrageous prices only makes their problems worse. All the ancillary shit that comes along with drug use - the robberies, burglaries, diseases... these only exist because of the way drug use is illicit in this country. Drugs are ever-present. People that want to get high will find drugs, and will commit whatever acts they have to in order to get their fix. Fighting a "war on drugs" is like fighting a "war" on fatty foods or driving too fast. All it does is lead to more and more Draconian measures to enforce the unenforceable.

I don't use any drugs now other than the occasional hit of Wiser's 18-year-old whiskey, but I don't begrudge other people their right to get high. I honestly don't see any negatives in crafting a policy legalizing possession or use of certain drugs, within limits. Just as I don't want my neighbor driving while drunk off his ass, I don't want him driving while on a coke binge. LadyX had pretty much nailed the benefits toward legalizing the supply and distribution - there's nothing more I can really add to it, except to say that there will ALWAYS be a religious element that wants to control all of our lives and turn us into robots, following their lead. In MY opinion, this desire to rule over your neighbor has caused more problems in the world than drug use ever will...
Bunny12
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:40:25 AM

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All I can say about this is make weed legal and all the USA's financial problems will be over and a ton of very ill people will find relief from a drug that is so helpful to so many disorders. Pisses me off that the medical community will not give cannabis serious study for it's medical benefits because some ass long ago labeled it a gateway drug and if you smoke a joint in the morning you'll for sure be a crack head by 5 pm yet they have absolutely no problem getting you addicted to vicodin! - what a total load of bull shit! Now other more addictive harder drugs especially heroin I just don't know.........?

Free the weed we be burning!!!!






Bunny12


Bunny Rabbits cute and fuzzy they want to love you but they have razor sharp teeth - don't piss them off!
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 8:25:57 AM

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Actually there have been many, many studies in the medical community looking at the therapeutic effects of marijuana.

It's shown some positive benefits to slowing the progression of breast cancer, brain cancer and Alzheimer's, and of course it's been long renowned for its benefits when undergoing chemo or for those with HIV/AIDS. It also has potential anti-inflammatory benefits with MS.

Interestingly enough, there has been some criticism that the medical grade marijuana that has been available is not as good as the kind you can get from your local drug dealer. You would think with all the people in prison for drug dealing, that the government might tap into some of their expertise to grow decent pot.

As far as the other drugs are concerned, I think that many countries are starting to look at decriminalizing small qualities of drugs for person use. This is different than legalizing... Technically it's still illegal for drug dealers to sell it, but if you are found with a small quantity in your possession for personal use, you won't end up arrested, fined or imprisoned. Mexico decriminalized "personal use" of all major recreational drugs back in August '09 for example (no more requests for bribes!).

On the other side of the coin, you see that cartels and dealers continue to be an invisible and unstoppable force. With the amount of drug wars, violence and money spent with still no solution, I can understand the desire to debate the benefits of legalization and what kind of impact it might have, because certainly what is going on now just isn't working...

In term of the harm drugs can cause... sure I agree, that hard drugs in the wrong hands, or in the hands of younger kids can be a recipe for disaster. Even as it is now, a lot of kids go to mexico because it's so easy to buy their drug of choice as its readily available everywhere (and being proactively offered in most tourist areas). A kid that might not know where to access it at home certainly has all options open on vacation.

I also think that the effects of alcohol can be just as dangerous as the negative effects of certain drugs when used irresponsibly. You don't often hear about the deaths caused by alcohol in the same way that you hear that a college kid that dies at a club from taking ecstasy. And yes, if its sold on the street, chemical drugs are extremely difficult to control in terms of what's going into them. It can be very dangerous. And especially if the person doesn't know the effects.

Many people will argue that an 'addict' is an 'addict'... that if you remove one vice, they will find another... because it's not so much about that specific drug they are addicted to, but more about what leads that person to seek that kind of escape/crutch. Alcohol addiction is just as rampant as drug addiction, but alcohol is still legal and getting drunk is still considered socially acceptable (and even encouraged).



Algol
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:17:17 AM

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Over the years I’ve done my share of recreational drugs, perhaps a little more than my share. My favorite was coke, I Loved cocaine, "everything is better on coke..." hence the problem, the problem wasn’t getting it or the cost of it, the problem was I was doing it all day everyday and having little kids at the time that I wanted to see grow up, so I quit, that was it for the coke I stopped cold that day.

Legalizing weed yes…(I still enjoy that once in a while) Absolutely grow it and tax it.

Anything can be abused, there is always someone who‘ll take it too far.


Algol

Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:48:24 AM

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Algol wrote:
Over the years I’ve done my share of recreational drugs, perhaps a little more than my share. My favorite was coke, I Loved cocaine, "everything is better on coke..." hence the problem, the problem wasn’t getting it or the cost of it, the problem was I was doing it all day everyday and having little kids at the time that I wanted to see grow up, so I quit, that was it for the coke I stopped cold that day.

Legalizing weed yes…(I still enjoy that once in a while) Absolutely grow it and tax it.

Anything can be abused, there is always someone who‘ll take it too far.


Yeah, sadly in my industry (modern dance/ballet), cocaine is very widely abused and fairly common place. Dancers will do it for weight control, stage fright, energy, and general self-esteem issues. Plus we are always battling one injury or another... any kind of stimulant, body shaping or performance enhancing drug will be on the table for discussion.

I have used it, along with the occasional ecstasy or pot. I've never been inclined to want to use it on a daily basis or even a regular basis, but I know a lot of people that do... both dancers.. as well as within my social group for girls who want to stay skinny, more so than for the high it gives.

It definitely has potential to become addictive or be abused for the wrong reasons.

I remember the first "after hours" party I ever went to where I had taken ecstasy for the first time, I was talking to a guy and he said "people come here to do drugs to either celebrate life, or escape from it... which one are you here for?". Funny, but I will always remember that...

I don't think legalizing it is necessarily the way to go with harder drugs like coke or heroin, but then when you get (in my industry for example) a famous NYC ballet dancer like Nilas Martin arrested and dragged through the media and getting his career ruined for possession of a 1/2 a gram of coke... I think society should have better things to do with the justice system.

Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:49:16 AM

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Rembacher
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:59:17 AM

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lintar00 wrote:
Say that the "Drug Box" is opened, and it's allowed to become. What happens if the situation outgrows the intended? Then what do you do?


You'll have to be a lot more specific for me to be able to answer that. I get your pandora's box reference, but what do you mean by "outgrows the intended?" That marijuana use becomes as common as alcohol use? I don't have a problem with that.
Revolution
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:08:39 AM

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Quote:
On the other side of the coin, you see that cartels and dealers continue to be an invisible and unstoppable force. With the amount of drug wars, violence and money spent with still no solution, I can understand the desire to debate the benefits of legalization and what kind of impact it might have, because certainly what is going on now just isn't working...


How do you see legalizing drugs affecting drug wars? Not trying to be condescending, serious question.

I see it like this. The drug trade is controlled by crime syndicates. Drug wars are usually started for control of the drug trade. They happen when crime syndicates try to move in on each other. So in other words, the more competition, the more likely someones toes will get stepped on, the more likely a war will break out. Legalizing drugs will only increase that competition. So I can only see it creating more wars.

I don't see how legalizing drugs is going to make crime syndicates any less dangerous or how it will affect their control over the drug trade. I'm almost certain that I've missed some major point here, so if you could explain it for me, that would be much appreciated.


"Oh yes, the past can hurt. But the way I see it you can either run from it...or, learn from it." - Rafiki, The Lion King
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:23:11 AM

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Revolution wrote:
Quote:
On the other side of the coin, you see that cartels and dealers continue to be an invisible and unstoppable force. With the amount of drug wars, violence and money spent with still no solution, I can understand the desire to debate the benefits of legalization and what kind of impact it might have, because certainly what is going on now just isn't working...


How do you see legalizing drugs affecting drug wars? Not trying to be condescending, serious question.

I see it like this. The drug trade is controlled by crime syndicates. Drug wars are usually started for control of the drug trade. They happen when crime syndicates try to move in on each other. So in other words, the more competition, the more likely someones toes will get stepped on, the more likely a war will break out. Legalizing drugs will only increase that competition. So I can only see it creating more wars.

I don't see how legalizing drugs is going to make crime syndicates any less dangerous or how it will affect their control over the drug trade. I'm almost certain that I've missed some major point here, so if you could explain it for me, that would be much appreciated.


All the fierce competition comes from seeing who can ship the most quantity without getting caught. Fighting between dealers starts at the street level where low-lever dealers fight each other to see who has the "right" to sell on certain city blocks. Fighting between high-level suppliers is much the same, except they're fighting to see who gets to harvest the most (who gets to control the larger share of supply) as well as who gets to sell in certain cities, or use certain routes for importing drugs. If drugs like weed and coke were de-criminalized for recreational purposes, the various world governments could control shipping and distribution routes, as well as charge duties and fees. Corporations would be formed to handle growing, harvest, and shipping. Existing corporations would branch out into this new endeavor. It would actually INCREASE competition (in the short term) as more people tried to get into the loop. More suppliers and greater supply would lower prices drastically, while testing and quality assurance programs would ensure the end consumer's satisfaction. Revenue to the various governments would be HUGE.

As for the criminal syndicates that currently control the trade... they would be pissed because instead of making billions per shipment, they would have to settle for lower prices, "making it up in bulk" instead. As more and more corporations got into the trade, eventually the "little guy" suppliers would be pushed out, in much the same way America's Midwestern farmers are being bought out by corporate farms. There MAY be somewhat more bloodshed among suppliers at the beginning as new hopefuls intrude on the territories of the existing juntas, but that would be over quickly. I have no doubt that Coke, Sony, and General Electric know a thing or two about dealing with competition...
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:32:00 AM

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Revolution wrote:
Quote:
On the other side of the coin, you see that cartels and dealers continue to be an invisible and unstoppable force. With the amount of drug wars, violence and money spent with still no solution, I can understand the desire to debate the benefits of legalization and what kind of impact it might have, because certainly what is going on now just isn't working...


How do you see legalizing drugs affecting drug wars? Not trying to be condescending, serious question.

I see it like this. The drug trade is controlled by crime syndicates. Drug wars are usually started for control of the drug trade. They happen when crime syndicates try to move in on each other. So in other words, the more competition, the more likely someones toes will get stepped on, the more likely a war will break out. Legalizing drugs will only increase that competition. So I can only see it creating more wars.

I don't see how legalizing drugs is going to make crime syndicates any less dangerous or how it will affect their control over the drug trade. I'm almost certain that I've missed some major point here, so if you could explain it for me, that would be much appreciated.


Legalizing drugs would strip the cartels of their profits because it is then being regulated and controlled by the government (ie you are no longer buying it from one cartel or another). About 90 per cent of all the cocaine consumed in the US transits through Mexico. The drug trade generates for the cartels an estimated 13 to 15 billion dollars earning per year. It's the war for control over territory, points of export, and profits that creates the need for escalating violence. The laws against their products is what makes the drug smugglers and cartels rich... not the products themselves.

Oops, I just realized after posting this that MrNudiePants already beat me to it! Thanks... icon_smile


Revolution
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:39:50 AM

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MrNudiePants wrote:

There MAY be somewhat more bloodshed among suppliers at the beginning as new hopefuls intrude on the territories of the existing juntas, but that would be over quickly. I have no doubt that Coke, Sony, and General Electric know a thing or two about dealing with competition...


Fair enough. For some reason I didn't take into consideration big corporations taking over and just assumed the current drug syndicates would remain in control. Thanks. :)

"Oh yes, the past can hurt. But the way I see it you can either run from it...or, learn from it." - Rafiki, The Lion King
Rembacher
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:03:32 AM

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In Ontario, if you want to buy alcohol you have to do it from one of two locations, The Beer Store, or the LCBO. I mention this for two reasons.

If I want to buy alcohol, I can't just buy from whoever I want to. I'm forced by the laws, to go to a particular source. If I want drugs, I'm forced by law to go to the cartels, or whatever particular illegal organization is willing to provide me with the drugs. If given a choice of suppliers closer to home, or with a less unsavoury element to it, I would chose that, but right now I can't.

Also, given that Ontario has a controlled system set up already, it would be easy to incorparate marijuana into that system. There would be limited costs adding marijuana to the beer and liquor supplied by these locations.

I think most of the people I have talked to will know that I will never endorse legalization of cocaine. I've dealt with too many people who have been messed up by it. But I'm all for the legalization of marijuana.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:15:09 AM

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Seriously the best pain killer I ever had when I had my wisdom teeth issues was a little weed...I had taken loads of pain killers and wasn't allowed anymore...the weed just killed the sharp stabbing pain like nothing else...
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:16:45 AM

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I have family members who are alcoholics and also some that smoke weed all day everyday. Believe me that the alcoholics are by far more difficult to deal with. They hurt themselves all the time by falling and they break things a lot. Yet alcohol is legal.

Weed is just as easy to get as alcohol, even easier when I was underage. So the fact that it is illegal only makes busy work for the police. I've been stopped by police and searched. They found weed and a bong. They broke the bong, tossed the weed on the ground and stepped on it then let me go. They didn't give a shit about it. Probably didn't want to do the paperwork for it. If I had an open alcohol container I would have been arrested for sure. Maybe the cops realize which one is worse.

They made alcohol illegal here in the USA and they created Al Capone. Make weed legal and it will put a serious dent in the Mexican cartel's wallets. They'll still deal coke and heroin but at least they'll stop dealing with weed. If they make alcohol illegal again the Cartels would celebrate.

Weed is cheap to grow too. The government could probably sell it for less than the street price is now and still make a killing. Hopefully use that money to reduce our deficit or schools or health care etc. Im no Alan Greenspan but it makes economic sense to me.



WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:45:49 AM

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I was in an 8 week outpatient rehab for a cocaine addiction I willingly and freely chose to cultivate. The drug didn't make me want to use more of it. I made that decision. If I had not been forced into rehab, I was on a path to self destruction (I didn't give a fuck about my life at that point). I was a social hermit/recluse. Nobody saw me doing my drug, they only saw the after effects (which were many).

While in rehab, I did learn a ton of interesting information.

Namely, there is no harder drug than any other drug. That is a fallacy that has been pushed by morons since the dawn of time. There is no gateway drug either, another fallacy. There are hormone stimulants and depressants which are much more potent than any street drug and they are legal if prescribed by a doctor or shrink. And abused by patients.

The most abused drug is alcohol, chiefly because it is so easy to obtain and people don't think it's a drug (because it's legalized). Any 21 year old can walk into one of really, millions of locations in the continental United States and purchase his flavor of alcohol. Just need credit card or cash. Simple.

Do you think the US Tobacco companies are not primed and poised to start growing and harvesting several different grades of marijuana, just in case federal law is changed to allow legalization of cannabis? Cash cow.

If all illicit drugs were legalized, you would see use and abuse skyrocket. Remove the draconian penalties for use and there is no threat to the user community.

You might think that smoking potent skunk weed isn't as addictive or 'harmful' as the dude whistling on the 8-ball of crack cocaine or the 'loser' running horse into his veins...or the poor bastard who is cooking meth in the trunk of his car and then railing it. How about the alkie downing a fifth of vodka or whiskey or merlot each day/night?

Who is the more 'moral' or the smarter user/abuser?

Humanity has been altering their brain chemistry since prehistoric times. Some of us do, some of us don't and many of us who do, and don't - look down our noses at our brothers and sisters who are hooked.

We should offer them a hand up when possible and not pigeonhole them because their drug of choice is different than our own.



Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:57:35 AM

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You seem to be arguing both sides of the line, WellMadeMale. On one hand, you say


Quote:
If all illicit drugs were legalized, you would see use and abuse skyrocket. Remove the draconian penalties for use and there is no threat to the user community.


Then, you say:

Quote:
Humanity has been altering their brain chemistry since prehistoric times. Some of us do, some of us don't and many of us who do, and don't - look down our noses at our brothers and sisters who are hooked.



People WILL be able to get drugs. Doesn't matter who they are, or where they are. If you can get drugs in prison, or in rehab (which you most definitely can), you can get them anywhere. People that WANT drugs will always be able to get them. If they're legalized, occasional use may go up, but I don't think it would "skyrocket" because anybody that wants to get drugs today, can get them.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:03:40 PM

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I don't think abuse will sky rocket...People already have aversions through moral,religious and other grounds to drug use...a changing law won't make them just change their outlooks like that...
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:05:20 PM

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WellMadeMale wrote:


Namely, there is no harder drug than any other drug. That is a fallacy that has been pushed by morons since the dawn of time. There is no gateway drug either, another fallacy. There are hormone stimulants and depressants which are much more potent than any street drug and they are legal if prescribed by a doctor or shrink. And abused by patients.




I agree with you here that the gateway drug theory is false.

But in terms of one drug being harder than another I have to disagree to an extent. I'm not talking about the effects of the drug itself to gage how "hard" it is. I'm talking about how addictive a particular drug is. Some drugs are very addictive and have physical withdrawals. Ever seen an alcoholic get the shakes?

I for one would rather quit marijuana cold turkey than cocaine, heroin, or alcohol. Shit, tobacco is the hardest of all to kick.

You also go on to say that hormone stimulants and depressants are more potent than street drugs so I assume you are not gaging "hardness" by how potent a drug is either.



WellMadeMale
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:10:53 PM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
You seem to be arguing both sides of the line, WellMadeMale. On one hand, you say


Quote:
If all illicit drugs were legalized, you would see use and abuse skyrocket. Remove the draconian penalties for use and there is no threat to the user community.


Then, you say:

Quote:
Humanity has been altering their brain chemistry since prehistoric times. Some of us do, some of us don't and many of us who do, and don't - look down our noses at our brothers and sisters who are hooked.



People WILL be able to get drugs. Doesn't matter who they are, or where they are. If you can get drugs in prison, or in rehab (which you most definitely can), you can get them anywhere. People that WANT drugs will always be able to get them. If they're legalized, occasional use may go up, but I don't think it would "skyrocket" because anybody that wants to get drugs today, can get them.


I am against the draconian penalties that our civilized society hands out to our people who get caught with marijuana, cocaine, heroin, X...

Our justice system is set up to be the cash cow now, while we fuck up people's futures by handing them felony convictions and tossing their asses in a prison to waste years of their lives living in close proximity with true violent crime committing animals.

You and I both know, having admitted that we are addicts (once an addict...always an addict/alcoholic) that we made the choice to use. Continued use led to abuse. Whether that abuse was hardcore and short term or soft core and long term, is not really the point. We chose to alter our brain chemistries.

I'm not really arguing either side of the point, I'm just stating my perceptions, MNP.

My parents, for instance are alcoholics. They can't quit drinking their drug of choice. They have one or two or three every day and have since they retired from working life, 20 years ago. They like that zone, the booze puts 'em in for a few hours a day.

They don't see themselves as having 'a problem'. But the methhead or dope-smoker down the street. "Fuck it" Lock 'em up and throw away the key.

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:18:20 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,829
Location: Your dirty fantasy
Magical_felix wrote:


But in terms of one drug being harder than another I have to disagree to an extent. I'm not talking about the effects of the drug itself to gage how "hard" it is. I'm talking about how addictive a particular drug is. Some drugs are very addictive and have physical withdrawals. Ever seen an alcoholic get the shakes?

I for one would rather quit marijuana cold turkey than cocaine, heroin, or alcohol. Shit, tobacco is the hardest of all to kick.

You also go on to say that hormone stimulants and depressants are more potent than street drugs so I assume you are not gaging "hardness" by how potent a drug is either.


I agree that some drugs are more addictive than others by potency, but I also think that it's the 'addictive personality' that determines the addiction. Any kind of drug that is designed to tap into our pleasure receptors is going to be more addictive to someone that has existing issues that is looking for some kind of method of escape, numbing or coping.

Some people can smoke a cigarette or party on coke all weekend and not feel the sudden urge or craving to do it again during the week... and yet others seem completely addicted on their first hit.

I still see the addiction as the issue, not so much the substance of choice, whether that substance is legal like alcohol/tobacco/prescription drugs/food, or illegal like everything else. Unless the underlying issues are addressed, then it's just as easy to substitute another addiction for the one they gave up. Many of the legal ones are just as damaging to the human body... it may just take a little bit longer for the more serious effects to evolve, instead of via a sudden overdose with an illegal substance.

mercianknight
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:22:34 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/11/2009
Posts: 2,027
Location: whispering conspiratorially in your ear, Bermuda
cussing WTF? Is this a joke, really? cussing

Darn it, I apologise, talk of legalizing 'recreational drugs' (gaaaaH! even the term offends me) is a red flag for me **walks away shaking head trying to calm down**

**mutters to self** "If only they had seen what I have seen." cussing

"Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages, English and bad English." - Korben Dallas, from The Fifth Element

"If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must man be of learning from experience?" - George Bernard Shaw
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:26:12 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 6,346
Location: California
Dancing_Doll wrote:
Magical_felix wrote:


But in terms of one drug being harder than another I have to disagree to an extent. I'm not talking about the effects of the drug itself to gage how "hard" it is. I'm talking about how addictive a particular drug is. Some drugs are very addictive and have physical withdrawals. Ever seen an alcoholic get the shakes?

I for one would rather quit marijuana cold turkey than cocaine, heroin, or alcohol. Shit, tobacco is the hardest of all to kick.

You also go on to say that hormone stimulants and depressants are more potent than street drugs so I assume you are not gaging "hardness" by how potent a drug is either.


I agree that some drugs are more addictive than others by potency, but I also think that it's the 'addictive personality' that determines the addiction. Any kind of drug that is designed to tap into our pleasure receptors is going to be more addictive to someone that has existing issues that is looking for some kind of method of escape, numbing or coping.

Some people can smoke a cigarette or party on coke all weekend and not feel the sudden urge or craving to do it again during the week... and yet others seem completely addicted on their first hit.

I still see the addiction as the issue, not so much the substance of choice, whether that substance is legal like alcohol/tobacco/prescription drugs/food, or illegal like everything else. Unless the underlying issues are addressed, then it's just as easy to substitute another addiction for the one they gave up. Many of the legal ones are just as damaging to the human body... it may just take a little bit longer for the more serious effects to evolve, instead of via a sudden overdose with an illegal substance.


That is so true. Some people get addicted to everything. Like exercising, TV shows, their favorite soda, coffee, favorite lunch spot, people, strip clubs etc. I have a personality like that. A lot of it is mental.



Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:28:26 PM

Rank: Wild at Heart

Joined: 4/3/2010
Posts: 6,346
Location: California
mercianknight wrote:
cussing WTF? Is this a joke, really? cussing

Darn it, I apologise, talk of legalizing 'recreational drugs' (gaaaaH1 even the term offends me) is a red flag for my **walks away shaking head trying to calm down**

**mutters to self** "If only they had seen what I have seen." cussing


You should enlighten us. You're a formal police officer right? Your opinion would be welcome.



MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:31:08 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
WellMadeMale wrote:


...You and I both know, having admitted that we are addicts (once an addict...always an addict/alcoholic) that we made the choice to use. Continued use led to abuse. Whether that abuse was hardcore and short term or soft core and long term, is not really the point. We chose to alter our brain chemistries.

I'm not really arguing either side of the point, I'm just stating my perceptions, MNP.

My parents, for instance are alcoholics. They can't quit drinking their drug of choice. They have one or two or three every day and have since they retired from working life, 20 years ago. They like that zone, the booze puts 'em in for a few hours a day.

They don't see themselves as having 'a problem'. But the methhead or dope-smoker down the street. "Fuck it" Lock 'em up and throw away the key.


Okay, I can see that. I also tend to agree with Dancing Doll's "addictive personality" ideas. I argue with the "once an addict, always an addict" philosophy, though. My own addiction didn't come about because I was looking for bigger and better ways to get high - instead, I had a fairly serious accident. It took three surgeries over three years to put me right again. After each surgery, I was on some really strong painkillers (morphine and Vicodin, mostly) for months. The first couple times, I was able to quit easily. Each time, though, it seemed like my body became more and more accustomed to having the painkillers inside me. At the end, I could have taken several times my prescribed dose and just gotten a faint buzz from it. My body was so used to having the chemicals in it that it didn't know how to function in their absence.

I've also kicked smoking. In the end, I don't know which addiction was harder to kick - drugs or cigarettes. (LOL) Now, though, I can take them or leave them. I no longer have the physical need for the drugs in my body. I had another surgery, just a couple years ago (for an unrelated problem) and I had no desire to remain on the painkillers after the pain had passed. I can't tell you if it was my own mind telling me it didn't want me addicted again, or just the circumstance. But I can tell you that I'm no longer an addict.
LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:32:03 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,804
Dancing_Doll wrote:

Some people can smoke a cigarette or party on coke all weekend and not feel the sudden urge or craving to do it again during the week... and yet others seem completely addicted on their first hit.
.


This is true- I can snort coke one day and feel no desire to use it the next day. I enjoy the high, I don't "need" the high. I will say that the few that I knew or know to shoot coke or heroin were addicted, and I've heard of many more. I think there's something about the injection, especially of heroin, that jumpstarts a chemical addiction even among people who normally wouldn't be addicted.

I know many who use cocaine who aren't addicted. Some are reigned in by the cost, lol. As for me, I don't enjoy the comedown or the nasal congestion enough to do it every day, besides what it does to my personality sometimes.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:42:06 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,829
Location: Your dirty fantasy

An interesting stat here states that prescription drugs now ranks second behind marijuana as the most prevalent illegal drug problem. We tend to think that it's the illegal street drugs that are creating the most addictions, but as MrNudiePants said, there is another addiction battle looming within our doctor's offices and pharmacies. And again, it speaks to the fact that an addictive personality will always find access to some kind of drug, whether its legal or illegal may not make as much of a difference.

"The White House Office of National Drug Control Policy maintains that past year abuse of prescription pain killers now ranks second—only behind marijuana—as the Nation's most prevalent illegal drug problem. While overall youth drug use is down by 23 percent since 2001, approximately 6.4 million Americans report non-medical use of prescription drugs. New abusers of prescription drugs have caught up with the number of new users of marijuana."

http://www.healthyplace.com/addictions/prescription-drugs/addiction-to-prescription-drugs/menu-id-54/

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