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myself
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:17:40 PM

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Location: .showyourdick.org/
I don't have a gun of my own but, I harbor guns in my home for my Love's beliefs.

It is my belief- live by the gun die by the gun.

In America, we have the right to bare arms and protect ourselves.



Torture the data long enough and they will confess to anything.
Concretus
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:43:05 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 2/20/2010
Posts: 42
All this is interesting since I'm from a country where guns sales is not allowed, period. You need a license to buy a gun.
And I dont see how this went from taking guns into clubs to discussing personal freedom. If I get shock by a drunk bastard, would that still be considered freedom, and whose mine or his?
Woman
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:35:11 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 11/21/2009
Posts: 674
Location: Stopping the war 'tween Harold and Kumar
Guns. I don't like them.

The only reason people carry guns according to my brother-in-law and sister who are both police officers, is you have an intent to use it against another human being. Kindof a spin off on the old, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thingie. I tried to argue with them about it... and then realised they are actually right. You buy a handgun for protection, the intent is there.

Guns are pretty, sleek, powerful, and intimidating. But I jest when I say, "boys and their toys" (girls too here!) where you want one bigger and better and faster than your friends.

Rifles on the other hand to me are an entirely different topic of conversation. Rifles are generally used to hunt with. I've lived in the arctic where yes, you go go one kilometre out of the town, and you MUST carry one for survival purposes. We thought nothing of men and women entering the bank wearing scarves and hats that pull down and cover all their faces, a rifle slung over there backs. It is part of life up there. And hunting is not a bad thing either (coming from someone who rarely eats meat here... and has a bleeding heart for animals and I really do think that if an animal bites a human because the human was being a douche bag to the animal; don't put the animal down, put the human down), it is part of our history that is slowly being forgotten.

Taking away guns won't solve anything in the long run. I don't like guns, and I wish my sister and her husband were in a different line of work so they wouldn't have to have a weapon or even know how to use one.

But it is in a choice. And in the education and the responsibility of the handler to know the consequences of carrying a gun. To carry or not to carry is the question.

Now, about the original poster asking about thoughts on guns in bars? Meh. Population control.

Living life and enjoying life are two different things... just need to figure out how to do both at the same time to live it right!

Woman... GO FLY A KITE!!!!! Take a slideshow walk with me on a walk through the parks of Inner Mongolia, China. Then enjoy the tale of a very traditional day in the life of a white Woman in China.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:38:28 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:
Most places that allow personal carry of firearms (whether open or concealed) also have strict penalties for using alcohol while carrying a firearm.


It may be illegal to drink while carrying a firearm, but it's also illegal for one to drink and drive.
And yet the stats say that whether something is technically illegal or not, doesn't really seem to impact the number of accidental deaths that result when someone chooses to break the law... drinking being one of those things that even reasonable people tend to end up doing. How many times does someone walk into a bar and think, "I'm going to get wasted tonight and then drive home"... hmm... actually I know a few people that have had open intentions like that, but that's besides the point. Most people think that one or two drinks won't impact them. And I also know people that think they are decent drivers when drinking because they are "extra careful" when driving imbibed.
Now throw a firearm into the mix, and you can end up dying at the bar, instead of on your drive home.

Just because something is technically illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen all the time. Drinking is a widely accepted social activity, and I just find a lot of people find it easier to make excuses when it comes to drinking... whether it's driving home to avoid paying for a cab, drinking and boating because it's a long weekend and everyone else seems to be doing it to, and in this case, having a few drinks and assuming they will somehow manage to be in control of their concealed weapon.

Personally I would rather assume that nobody in the bar has a weapon, period.

For example... what if you (as a concealed weapons carrier) was punched in the face by a drunken guy you were having a dispute with in the bar. Would you draw your weapon? And even if he doesn't have one, then maybe his friend is carrying and draws his. How quickly can a random bar fight escalate into one where someone gets shot or killed instead of just ending up in situation where someone ends up with a bloody nose and sleeps it off, or just gets kicked out of the club by a bouncer.


Stabbing people to death is against the law, but it happens hundreds of times a day. Should we just say "fuck it" and repeal the laws against stabbing people to death? Driving a car on a suspended driver's license is against the law, but thousands do it every day. What's your suggested course of action to stop those scofflaws? Criminals will be criminals - they won't obey the law. CCW permit holders are not criminals - they do obey the law. If the only people carrying weapons are criminals, then the law-abiding citizens will be at the mercy of the criminals. I'd rather have every tool I can legally have available to me when it comes to defending myself and my loved ones.

What if I, as designated driver for my group, am walking with them across a dark parking lot when we're accosted by a couple of thugs who only see a party of drunks, and think that we're easy pickings? What if I, legally carrying a concealed weapon, am the only means my drunk friends have of surviving this encounter? (This is the exact scenario the Tennessee State Legislature envisioned when they codified their new statutes.)

We can play the "what if" game forever. I could pull out thousands of news articles where legally carried weapons saved lives, just as you could pull out stories of illegally-carried weapons taking them. One fact can't be disputed - these laws only affect the law-abiding, and only make it easier for those law-abiding citizens to defend themselves against attack. These laws do no harm. Period.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:48:56 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Woman wrote:
Guns. I don't like them.

The only reason people carry guns according to my brother-in-law and sister who are both police officers, is you have an intent to use it against another human being. Kindof a spin off on the old, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thingie. I tried to argue with them about it... and then realised they are actually right. You buy a handgun for protection, the intent is there.

Guns are pretty, sleek, powerful, and intimidating. But I jest when I say, "boys and their toys" (girls too here!) where you want one bigger and better and faster than your friends.

Rifles on the other hand to me are an entirely different topic of conversation. Rifles are generally used to hunt with. I've lived in the arctic where yes, you go go one kilometre out of the town, and you MUST carry one for survival purposes. We thought nothing of men and women entering the bank wearing scarves and hats that pull down and cover all their faces, a rifle slung over there backs. It is part of life up there. And hunting is not a bad thing either (coming from someone who rarely eats meat here... and has a bleeding heart for animals and I really do think that if an animal bites a human because the human was being a douche bag to the animal; don't put the animal down, put the human down), it is part of our history that is slowly being forgotten.

Taking away guns won't solve anything in the long run. I don't like guns, and I wish my sister and her husband were in a different line of work so they wouldn't have to have a weapon or even know how to use one.

But it is in a choice. And in the education and the responsibility of the handler to know the consequences of carrying a gun. To carry or not to carry is the question.

Now, about the original poster asking about thoughts on guns in bars? Meh. Population control.


I respect your position wholeheartedly, even though I don't agree with it. One thing I disagree with is the highlighted statement. All due respect to your brother-in-law and sister, I didn't buy any of my guns with the "intent" to use them on other people. Yes, the possibility is there that I may one day have to do just that, but if so, it would only be in defense of myself, or of someone I care for. I have the same attitude down here that the denizens of the arctic have - it's a tool to be used if the need arise. The only difference is down here, the wild animals I may have to use it against walk on two legs.

Maybe it's just a fault of my history, but I've had too much personal contact with people that are capable of the most inhuman (and inhumane) acts toward other people to ever fully trust in strangers.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:31:43 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,771
Location: Your dirty fantasy
MrNudiePants wrote:


Stabbing people to death is against the law, but it happens hundreds of times a day. Should we just say "fuck it" and repeal the laws against stabbing people to death? Driving a car on a suspended driver's license is against the law, but thousands do it every day. What's your suggested course of action to stop those scofflaws? Criminals will be criminals - they won't obey the law. CCW permit holders are not criminals - they do obey the law. If the only people carrying weapons are criminals, then the law-abiding citizens will be at the mercy of the criminals. I'd rather have every tool I can legally have available to me when it comes to defending myself and my loved ones.

What if I, as designated driver for my group, am walking with them across a dark parking lot when we're accosted by a couple of thugs who only see a party of drunks, and think that we're easy pickings? What if I, legally carrying a concealed weapon, am the only means my drunk friends have of surviving this encounter? (This is the exact scenario the Tennessee State Legislature envisioned when they codified their new statutes.)

We can play the "what if" game forever. I could pull out thousands of news articles where legally carried weapons saved lives, just as you could pull out stories of illegally-carried weapons taking them. One fact can't be disputed - these laws only affect the law-abiding, and only make it easier for those law-abiding citizens to defend themselves against attack. These laws do no harm. Period.


Well, I don't exactly equate "stabbing someone to death" along the same level of criminal offence as drinking at a bar and choosing to drive home. My argument is that most people that have driven drunk would not consider themselves to be criminals. I know a lot of people that have pushed the limit and driven when they probably shouldn't have, as probably most of the people reading this do as well. Drinking is a common occurrence in bars. In fact most people who go to bars and clubs are going to ingest some quantity of alcohol (except for the designated drivers, and in your country, the designated gun holders, I suppose). I suspect far fewer people have friends that have stabbed someone to death.

Not allowing guns in bars does not make your country anti-gun (nor does it go against the Constitutional right to bear arms. There are laws that prohibit you from driving while talking on a cell phone. Does that make the country anti-phone? No. There are laws in place to reduce the risk of preventable injury and death, and reduce the risk for serious injury to occur, whether people behave properly or improperly. Think of it as a wearing a seatbelt while driving. Sure you can get into a car crash and be injured, but you're less likely to die if you're wearing a seatbelt. If you get into a brawl at a bar and someone beats you up or even stabs you with a random object, you're still far less likely to die than if someone just pulls out a gun and shoots.

Anyway, I thought I'd post this recent news story from last month as an interesting example. In this case I actually found it kind of funny. While I am concerned about the safety of non-gun-slinging citizens, at least in this particular case, it had the potential to act in a Darwinian way of removing an idiot from the gene pool. Although, didn't he (as a concealed permits carrier) have to go through those same rigorous FBI background checks too? Hmm... maybe he missed the fine print... but that can't happen very often now, can it? happy8

News Article wrote:


The mixture of guns and alcohol exploded at a Lynchburg restaurant Saturday night when a customer accidentally shot himself in the thigh with a concealed weapon. He faces three misdemeanor charges, according to Lynchburg police, including recklessly handling a firearm, willfully discharging a firearm in the city of Lynchburg and carrying a concealed handgun in a restaurant after consuming alcohol.

Police said the Forest man, who was treated and released at the hospital, did have a concealed weapon permit. But even with such a permit, those carrying concealed weapons in a bar or restaurant are not allowed to consume alcohol.

After years of controversy over the issue of guns and bars, the General Assembly earlier this year approved legislation -- and Gov. Bob McDonnell signed it -- that allows those with concealed weapons permits to carry guns into bars.

The bill never has made any sense.

Why? Because the mixture of alcohol with firearms is a deadly one. Guns and alcohol, plainly and simply, don't mix.




MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:16:57 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:
Think of it as a wearing a seatbelt while driving. Sure you can get into a car crash and be injured, but you're less likely to die if you're wearing a seatbelt. If you get into a brawl at a bar and someone beats you up or even stabs you with a random object, you're still far less likely to die than if someone just pulls out a gun and shoots.


Actually, stabbings can be much worse than shootings. Look into the actual Emergency Room statistics if you ever get the chance. You may be surprised. And I rate wearing my concealed weapon exactly the same as wearing a seatbelt. I hope I never need either one, but I'd rather have it on and not need it, than need it and not have it on.


There's a saying among most firearms enthusiasts: "There are only two kinds of shooters. Those that have had a negligent discharge, and those who will have one."


Even the safest, most defensive driver can have an accident that has severe consequences. All it takes is a split second of inattention. Even the most expert shooter can have a negligent discharge. All it takes is... a split second of inattention. You don't have to be a dumbass to have a negligent discharge, either - but being a dumbass probably helps.


The man in that story had a firearm in a bar. Note that the firearm being in a bar didn't cause any trouble at all. What caused the problem was when the wearer of that firearm decided to consume alcohol. It's possible that he's enough of a dumbass that he would have eventually shot himself anyway - I wouldn't know. What I do know is that the reporter is correct when he says alcohol and firearms don't mix. In this case, finger-fucking a loaded pistol combined with consuming alcohol turned a plain, ordinary dumbass into a criminal in a split second. I have very little sympathy for someone that would break one of the most basic rules of firearm safety - something that's drilled into every shooter over and over - namely that alcohol and guns don't mix. In this case, I hope that he loses his permit, and has to go through a really rigorous probation period before being allowed to get it back. I still don't see what the problem is with guns in bars, as long as the gun owners don't consume alcohol.
Kate
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 10:35:24 PM

Rank: Active Ink Slinger

Joined: 5/24/2010
Posts: 27
Location: New York, United States
I think it's a total recipe for disaster. Alcohol, pent up sexual energy, bucks. I'd vote against it.

Please read and comment on my first story, it's for the Halloween Competition, entitled "Pumped Kin."

She
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:07:53 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,547
Location: Europe
MrNudiePants wrote:

Stabbing people to death is against the law, but it happens hundreds of times a day. Should we just say "fuck it" and repeal the laws against stabbing people to death? Driving a car on a suspended driver's license is against the law, but thousands do it every day. What's your suggested course of action to stop those scofflaws? Criminals will be criminals - they won't obey the law. CCW permit holders are not criminals - they do obey the law. If the only people carrying weapons are criminals, then the law-abiding citizens will be at the mercy of the criminals. I'd rather have every tool I can legally have available to me when it comes to defending myself and my loved ones.

What if I, as designated driver for my group, am walking with them across a dark parking lot when we're accosted by a couple of thugs who only see a party of drunks, and think that we're easy pickings? What if I, legally carrying a concealed weapon, am the only means my drunk friends have of surviving this encounter? (This is the exact scenario the Tennessee State Legislature envisioned when they codified their new statutes.)

We can play the "what if" game forever. I could pull out thousands of news articles where legally carried weapons saved lives, just as you could pull out stories of illegally-carried weapons taking them. One fact can't be disputed - these laws only affect the law-abiding, and only make it easier for those law-abiding citizens to defend themselves against attack. These laws do no harm. Period.


MrNudiePants, you seems very principled man, obeying ther rules/laws, have respect for them..so how come you are ignoring one of law/rule Lushstories.com have? If I do remember correcetly no crotch photos for avatar pic are allowed and here you are deffending new law with a lot of passion and saying let me quote you

MrNudiePans wrote:
I still don't see what the problem is with guns in bars, as long as the gun owners don't consume alcohol.


because people will obey new rule and not drink alcohol even if they are in the bar? Like you are showing respect for rules?

So, new law will give bunch of people opportunity to go around the law, be a little bit a show of and have a drink or two..can you say it for yourself that you will not have a sip of a liquid ever when you are having your gun on you (and you have said it that your tool is always with you)?

Biside this suject of a thread, I would really like if you would change your avatar pic, you as Thread Moderator, are not showing good example to as all. I know, I know shoot is from a distance and people cannot really see your prick but still we all know that it is there and it's been for a months there, I think it is time for you to change it. Thank you.


LadyX
Posted: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:27:12 PM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,804
She wrote:

Biside this suject of a thread, I would really like if you would change your avatar pic, you as Thread Moderator, are not showing good example to as all. I know, I know shoot is from a distance and people cannot really see your prick but still we all know that it is there and it's been for a months there, I think it is time for you to change it. Thank you.


LOL- here's the rule:

Quote:
(d) explicit genital closeups (no erect penises or open vagina photos in avatars please)


He's not close up or erect, so looks like he's in the clear. Maybe you still want him to change it because you don't like it, but that's between you and him, baby.

nicola
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:02:30 AM

Rank: Matriarch
Moderator

Joined: 12/6/2006
Posts: 26,650
Location: United Kingdom
LadyX wrote:
Quote:
(d) explicit genital closeups (no erect penises or open vagina photos in avatars please)


He's not close up or erect, so looks like he's in the clear.


Correct.

Concerning the gun laws, I'm anti gun ownership, period. There's no stopping it now though, every serious criminal out there is armed like Dirty Harry, good luck trying to disarm those guys.

A friend of mine moved out to South Africa a few years ago, he said in practically every nightclub there they have a place to hang up your guns and holsters. I thought he was joking until he showed me some pics. He was also given the option to have a flamethrower fitted to his company BMW, carjacking there is rife too apparently. Sounds like a lovely place to live.
She
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:35:17 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 2,547
Location: Europe
nicola wrote:
LadyX wrote:
Quote:
(d) explicit genital closeups (no erect penises or open vagina photos in avatars please)


He's not close up or erect, so looks like he's in the clear.


Correct.


Ahh my bloomer, Shhh
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 5:16:25 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
She wrote:

MrNudiePants, you seems very principled man, obeying ther rules/laws, have respect for them..so how come you are ignoring one of law/rule Lushstories.com have? If I do remember correcetly no crotch photos for avatar pic are allowed and here you are deffending new law with a lot of passion and saying let me quote you

MrNudiePans wrote:
I still don't see what the problem is with guns in bars, as long as the gun owners don't consume alcohol.


because people will obey new rule and not drink alcohol even if they are in the bar? Like you are showing respect for rules?

So, new law will give bunch of people opportunity to go around the law, be a little bit a show of and have a drink or two..can you say it for yourself that you will not have a sip of a liquid ever when you are having your gun on you (and you have said it that your tool is always with you)?

Biside this suject of a thread, I would really like if you would change your avatar pic, you as Thread Moderator, are not showing good example to as all. I know, I know shoot is from a distance and people cannot really see your prick but still we all know that it is there and it's been for a months there, I think it is time for you to change it. Thank you.


I'm sorry you don't like my avatar pic, but I do, and there are others who do, so I haven't thought of changing it, and probably won't. Unless Nic asks me too, of course.

I don't claim to be perfect, but I can honestly say that I've never handled any of my firearms while under the influence of alcohol. This is one of the prime safety rules all shooter are taught (or should be taught) when they're first starting out. My opinion, and one shared by many gun owners, is any gun owner that drinks and handles a firearm should be punished.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 5:20:05 AM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
nicola wrote:
LadyX wrote:
Quote:
(d) explicit genital closeups (no erect penises or open vagina photos in avatars please)


He's not close up or erect, so looks like he's in the clear.


Correct.

Concerning the gun laws, I'm anti gun ownership, period. There's no stopping it now though, every serious criminal out there is armed like Dirty Harry, good luck trying to disarm those guys.

A friend of mine moved out to South Africa a few years ago, he said in practically every nightclub there they have a place to hang up your guns and holsters. I thought he was joking until he showed me some pics. He was also given the option to have a flamethrower fitted to his company BMW, carjacking there is rife too apparently. Sounds like a lovely place to live.


I've heard of those. I don't think I'll be moving to South Africa any time soon. Although Highveldt Stereo in Johannesburg is one of my favorite radio stations - they stream their broadcast live.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:12:07 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,511
Location: Cakeland, United States
Would someone who advocates handgun ownership, what intent is in mind, when 'you' consider purchasing and then do...obtain, a handgun...if the sole intention is not to discharge it at another human being.

Are you a target practice fanatic, instead?

Do 4 pound metallic objects make your dick hard or clit erect?

I own two rifles, three shotguns and a really loud hand cannon. I use the long guns to shoot at targets. The rifles were inherited and are both just .22 caliber. One shotgun was a gift and I killed some small animals with it before I was old enough to obtain a driver's license in America.

I've not killed anything with it since I was 15. My conscience is clear.

The other two shotguns have destroyed numerous clay pigeons.

The hand cannon...well, I was young and dumber than a box of rocks once, too. And if zombies are real, I'll get myself six of them fuckers before they eat me.

All weaponry is locked up and a good distance away from me, each and every day.

Words are my ammunition these days.

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:02:16 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,771
Location: Your dirty fantasy
MrNudiePants wrote:
Dancing_Doll wrote:
Think of it as a wearing a seatbelt while driving. Sure you can get into a car crash and be injured, but you're less likely to die if you're wearing a seatbelt. If you get into a brawl at a bar and someone beats you up or even stabs you with a random object, you're still far less likely to die than if someone just pulls out a gun and shoots.


Actually, stabbings can be much worse than shootings. Look into the actual Emergency Room statistics if you ever get the chance. You may be surprised. And I rate wearing my concealed weapon exactly the same as wearing a seatbelt. I hope I never need either one, but I'd rather have it on and not need it, than need it and not have it on.



I actually tried to look up "Emergency Room statistics", but couldn't find any that were relevant. Can you provide the link you were referring to? While stabbings may occur more often, I'd be curious to know if the percentage of people who died from their stab wounds was greater than the percentage of people that died from their bullet wound.

I did find this interesting chart of "Injury Deaths by Age Group" in the US (2006). I did a quick screen shot but you can find the complete chart here

It seems like after the age of 10 years old, firearms factor into the 2nd and 3rd leading cause of injury related deaths (after motor vehicle accidents). I didn't see death by "cut/pierce" or "homicide unspecified" anywhere near the top.





Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:14:53 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,771
Location: Your dirty fantasy
MrNudiePants wrote:


Even the safest, most defensive driver can have an accident that has severe consequences. All it takes is a split second of inattention. Even the most expert shooter can have a negligent discharge. All it takes is... a split second of inattention. You don't have to be a dumbass to have a negligent discharge, either - but being a dumbass probably helps.


For me what it comes down to is what is 'reasonable'. People need to drive, so while the risk involved with motor vehicle accidents is very real, it's a necessary risk for the vast majority of people that need to travel from one place to another.

It's not 'reasonable' to have to carry a gun everywhere, and especially into a bar. You are not living in war times, and it's unlikely you will need to form a militia within the amount of time it would take to rush back to your house where your arsenal of guns is safely locked away.

Would it be reasonable for me to keep a few grenades in my purse when I go partying just incase I need to defend myself?

It all comes down to limiting unnecessary risk in order to ensure the safety of others. And unless you're living in the projects or in a high-crime area, you aren't likely to need to draw a weapon to defend yourself from "thugs" on your way out of Applebees after a round of golf.

LadyX
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:50:32 AM

Rank: Artistic Tart
Moderator

Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,804
Dancing_Doll wrote:


Would it be reasonable for me to keep a few grenades in my purse when I go partying just incase I need to defend myself?

It all comes down to limiting unnecessary risk in order to ensure the safety of others. And unless you're living in the projects or in a high-crime area, you aren't likely to need to draw a weapon to defend yourself from "thugs" on your way out of Applebees after a round of golf.


Well, I guess I'd be stating the obvious if I mentioned that Applebee's and golf clubs are hard to find if you live in the projects. But the point is, lots and lots of people do live in the projects, or in high crime areas. I agree Ashleigh- if this were a law on whether Trevor the account manager could carry his glock into Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, as opposed to leaving it in his Escalade, I'd be in full agreement that there's no reason why that should be allowed.

But lots of people do fear for their lives on a day to day basis, and that doesn't end the minute they walk into a bar. I carried a gun nearly everywhere I went for a long time- and that included places where it was absolutely illegal to do so, including bars, including the place where I worked. But, between where I lived and my line of work, I felt that it was necessary for me to have it. I'm generally opposed to being raped, robbed, or killed, and those are real possibilities which become more real depending on where you go in this world.

Right now, because I've been very fortunate, I live in a nice area. I don't carry a gun right now, my job doesn't make me feel like I need it for that either, but either could change, and if it does, I'll be packing again. It's easy to be outraged about people carrying guns everywhere when you're surrounded by a less dangerous group of people in safe places. I know that by experience now.

I think either 'side' of this issue has to admit that allowing guns to be carried anywhere opens up situations like this, where there are wierd gray areas where neither side of the fight seems just. I agree that drunks with guns is a bad idea- which was my original post- but I also think that a law that takes away that protection from vulnerability, where everyone knows you're in a place without protection, only stands to harm people.

With apologies to Micho- I think this is a total gray area issue given that people have the freedom to protect themselves with a firearm. I'm in favor of banning them in bars. Until I get raped or robbed in a bar- the one place where my gun is not- then I'll feel differently.
WellMadeMale
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:02:22 AM

Rank: Constant Gardener

Joined: 9/30/2009
Posts: 10,511
Location: Cakeland, United States
I am glad that you are in a safe place, Xuani.

I wish we all could be, all the time.

Most intelligent people are introspective and doubt themselves while many fucktards are proudly over-confident. - a tip of the hat to Charles Bukowski
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:19:57 AM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,771
Location: Your dirty fantasy
LadyX wrote:

But lots of people do fear for their lives on a day to day basis, and that doesn't end the minute they walk into a bar. I carried a gun nearly everywhere I went for a long time- and that included places where it was absolutely illegal to do so, including bars, including the place where I worked. But, between where I lived and my line of work, I felt that it was necessary for me to have it. I'm generally opposed to being raped, robbed, or killed, and those are real possibilities which become more real depending on where you go in this world.


What about metal detectors and searches at the entrances of clubs? Most clubs where I live employ full searches and pat-downs. I've seen some clubs use metal detectors. That way it keeps the guns and weapons out of places where people are drinking. I would think there would be more thorough searches/scans and security in clubs with high crime rates.

When guns are readily available, it's more likely they will fall into the wrong hands. And then everyone feels like they need one (whether it's by legal or illegal means). I guess for my anti-gun stance, I'd like to see them more limited in access. Of course, a hardcore criminal is going to be able to buy a gun on the black market in any country, but I see it more in terms of probability. The more I drive, the more likely (due to probability) that I will one day get into a car accident, and the same can reasonably be assumed that the more people I'm surrounded by that have guns on them at all times, the more likely an accident will happen where I'll get shot.

Aside from these high crime areas, where safety really does feel like you're living in a "war zone" (and as you said, those areas/situations are a whole different bag), most other situations are of random citizens needing to feel like gun-slinging cowboys (I don't know.. maybe it helps them feel like a 'man' to be packing). And it's those situations where accidental deaths, and lethal fights occur that could have been prevented. And that's to say nothing about the 'suicide by firearms' statistic that is alarmingly high when you have a "permanent solution" to your life's problems within arms reach at all times.

sprite
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:45:26 AM

Rank: Her Royal Spriteness
Moderator

Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 17,589
Location: My Tower, United States
Ok, i realized that the amount of quoting i would need to in order to post this properly would be ridiculous, so i'm going to forgo that and do my best to address the iuused in an organized manner without quoting.

#1. MNP - I am going to assume that, as you have stated, you are a model citizen. i applaud you. and i'll buy into the idea that 90% of cocealed gun owners obey the laws as written. that leaves 10% who simply want to, as WMM says, carry a gun cause it gives them a hard on.

#2. Scenario one: Bartender Bob is working the bar. Last week he got held up by some punk with a gun. tonight, he's armed, ready for someone to pull the same thing. Good Citizen Gary walks in, his gun concealed in a shoulder holtser, sits down at the bar, orders a Coke, goes to pull his wallet out. Whilst doing so, Bob notices his gun. Damn punk is about to rob me! Bob thinks. Guns are pulled. The obit reads: Lilly, age 21, cause of death, stray bullet.

#3 Scenario two: Good Citizen Gary is having a coke at a bar. Phil the Punk pulls out a gun, yells 'everyone give me your money! or me and my buddies will shoot you!' Good Citizen's and accomplises pull out guns, no one knows which is which. The obit reads: Larry, age 62, cause of death, stray bullet.

#4. Xuani, i love you to death, and i KNOW the areas you're talking about, but to be honest, carrying the gun for most of us through those areas might give us a sense of saftey, but the odds are that if we needed to actually use it, we'd be in deep shit. my understanding is that handguns are difficult to aim, and i know they easy to take away from someone. Unless you're trained to use a gun, you really aren't going to be able to use it effectively when the chips are on the table. The feeling of saftey that carrying a gun gives you is false.

#5. MNP - i appreciate the sentiement of wanting to carry around a gun to protect cute blondes from bad guys. News flash: you assume i NEED protecting. I learned the hard way that a girl has to be able to defend herself. Here is where i agree with Lady X, my methods just differ. i am fairly confident that, in a life of death situation, i could defend myself withOUT using a gun and in a way that wouldn't be dangerous to any innocent bystanders. I carry pepper spray where ever i go. That's is my SECONDARY weapon. Instead of spending hours and hours at a shooting range, i have spent hours and hours on a mat learning self defense. i've NEVER had to use it against a human being, but know now to. It's not lethal, but it will neutralize someone. i can direct it toward my target without fear of hurting anyone else. i don't need to fumble for my weapon, i AM my weapon. Furthermore, i use my brain and keep out of dangerous places, and when i need to be in them, i am aware of my surroundings. i don't go looking for trouble, but i won't hesitate to hurt you if you intend harm.

#6. as WWM said as well as others, and i stated earlier. Handguns have one purpose. Killing. i don't care how you dress it up, that is all they are good for. if you carry one, all it takes is one error in judgement and someone is potentially dead. i know the argement is supposed to be about guns in bars. MY arguement is that carrying a gun in ANY public place should be illegal. Let me add this to the mix. if i was a cop, and you saw someone carrying a gun? i wouldn't ask to see his permit. i'd assume he was armed and dangerous first and THEN ask. And if he's hot headed enough to protest, i'd club him and ask questions later. i don't think cops like being shot at for some reason.

#7. Just because you have a lisesnce, and you're not drunk, doesn't mean you're not a belligerant hot headed testosterone filled ass. Yes, MNP might be a good citizen, but how am i supposed to know that? all i know is he has a gun. he's not welcome in my bar are any other establishment i own. i will go as far as posting that in the window: GUNS NOT WELCOME!

that's it, for now. i'm sure i'm not done here. this is, obviosly, big on my list of issues. :) a little background, i have LIVED in some seedy places. i have had cops crawling through my apartment complex looking for suspects reported armed and dangerous. i have had guns discarged in my vicinity. I have had neighbors whom i knew carried. it didn't make me feel safer. instead, i worried that one night there'd be shots fired and i'd have fresh holes in my bedroom walls. never happened, but the edge of fear was there. now, i live in a lovely little suburban area full of sane people and i breath easier when i hear the neighbors arguing, knowing it's unlikely to turn to blood shed. i don't believe in guns. i think that we would ALL be safer if they were collected and dumped into the ocean. yes, i will concede WMM should be allowed to keep his rifles, but hand guns? sorry, your words are going to fall on deaf ears. All it takes is one mistake, and none of us are perfect. Do you really want to have to live with the fact that you shot someone you love, or whom was loved by someone else because you made a single judgement in error?

xoxo
rachel




Live, love, laugh.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:28:31 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:
MrNudiePants wrote:


Even the safest, most defensive driver can have an accident that has severe consequences. All it takes is a split second of inattention. Even the most expert shooter can have a negligent discharge. All it takes is... a split second of inattention. You don't have to be a dumbass to have a negligent discharge, either - but being a dumbass probably helps.


For me what it comes down to is what is 'reasonable'. People need to drive, so while the risk involved with motor vehicle accidents is very real, it's a necessary risk for the vast majority of people that need to travel from one place to another.

It's not 'reasonable' to have to carry a gun everywhere, and especially into a bar. You are not living in war times, and it's unlikely you will need to form a militia within the amount of time it would take to rush back to your house where your arsenal of guns is safely locked away.

Would it be reasonable for me to keep a few grenades in my purse when I go partying just incase I need to defend myself?

It all comes down to limiting unnecessary risk in order to ensure the safety of others. And unless you're living in the projects or in a high-crime area, you aren't likely to need to draw a weapon to defend yourself from "thugs" on your way out of Applebees after a round of golf.


The chances of you being in a serious accident in your car are probably pretty slim, but I bet you wear a seatbelt. I bet you have insurance on your car and your home. You're probably not ill very often, but I bet if you didn't have government-paid health coverage, you'd want to have medical insurance. I bet you even have a fire extinguisher or two around your house, despite the fact that the risk of a house fire is really, really small.

Emergencies can happen to anybody, and it's wise to take proper precautions to be prepared for them. One of the ways I've prepared for one possible emergency is by arming myself, and making sure that my means of self-defense is in good working order. I don't travel to slums, except when I have to on business. I don't associate with criminals, or engage in criminal activities - Despite not engaging in any high-risk activities, I still realize that I may be a crime victim on any given day. I don't know the way the criminals in your area operate, but here, they leave their own neighborhoods and drive to upscale ones, to malls, to places where people don't know them. To places where there's more money. When's the last time you heard of a home invasion robbery in a broke-down-poor neighborhood? Having a firearm accessible and in good working order isn't the only tool in my preparedness toolbox, but it's one of my tools. I wouldn't ever tell anyone else that they HAVE to carry a concealed weapon - that goes against all that I believe in. What I am saying is that I don't want anyone else infringing on my right to do so. It's just that simple.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:56:36 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Sprite:

Scenario three - Tom is walking through a dark parking lot after meeting his friends for some lively conversation. His friends all had a beer, but because Tom is legally carrying a concealed weapon, he had a Pepsi. He's approached by a robber, who demands money. Tom draws his legally carried pistol, and the robber runs away. Tom calls the police, gives them a detailed description of the robber, and he's caught a short time later as he tries to rob someone else.

I have to give you all the credit in the world for recognizing the risks, and taking steps to protect yourself. I've had some of the best unarmed combat training available. I have pepper spray available to me, and I have a titanium folding knife clipped to my pocket nearly all the time. I choose to carry a firearm as well, on the theory that the more tools you have in your toolbox, the more options you have in a self-defense scenario. I have been involved in more force-on-force encounters than you probably ever will. I've never been in the situation where I've had to shoot anyone, but if that day comes, I know that I have the tools required - I've prepared myself as best i can. If I fail, it will be because I failed, not because I didn't give myself the right tool for the job.

FWIW - my handguns are useful for a whole lot more than just killing someone - in fact, if that's their only purpose, they have failed miserably at it, because none of them have killed anybody at all. What they are good for (so far) is giving me lots of fun as I use them as a form of recreation.
Reprehensiballs
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 2:03:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Wordsmith

Joined: 8/22/2010
Posts: 76
Location: Bedford
This whole thread makes me laugh, in England the majority of normal people have never even seen a gun, far less thought about owning one. Carrying anything more dangerous than a stick of gum into a bar is likely to get you arrested here. I can't imagine what it's like to live in a country where anyone you meet might be packing heat, how the hell can people stand to leave the house?

If you're going through hell, keep going. - Winston Churchill
SIL50
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 2:22:06 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/3/2009
Posts: 62
Location: Alabama
I am a gun owner and licensed to carry. That being said one must realize the enormus responsibility that come with thie right. Rule #1 Guns and booze do not mix, no club owner in their right mind should EVER allow any weapon inside their establishmnet, and no responsible should carry one into a nightclub. Just the risk of an AD should be enough.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:30:22 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,771
Location: Your dirty fantasy
MrNudiePants wrote:

The chances of you being in a serious accident in your car are probably pretty slim, but I bet you wear a seatbelt. I bet you have insurance on your car and your home. You're probably not ill very often, but I bet if you didn't have government-paid health coverage, you'd want to have medical insurance. I bet you even have a fire extinguisher or two around your house, despite the fact that the risk of a house fire is really, really small.

Emergencies can happen to anybody, and it's wise to take proper precautions to be prepared for them. One of the ways I've prepared for one possible emergency is by arming myself, and making sure that my means of self-defense is in good working order. I don't travel to slums, except when I have to on business. I don't associate with criminals, or engage in criminal activities - Despite not engaging in any high-risk activities, I still realize that I may be a crime victim on any given day. I don't know the way the criminals in your area operate, but here, they leave their own neighborhoods and drive to upscale ones, to malls, to places where people don't know them. To places where there's more money. When's the last time you heard of a home invasion robbery in a broke-down-poor neighborhood? Having a firearm accessible and in good working order isn't the only tool in my preparedness toolbox, but it's one of my tools. I wouldn't ever tell anyone else that they HAVE to carry a concealed weapon - that goes against all that I believe in. What I am saying is that I don't want anyone else infringing on my right to do so. It's just that simple.


A seatbelt, medical insurance and a fire extinguisher are precautions, and nowhere near along the same lines as carrying a gun on you 24/7. The things you mentioned have no potential to create further accidents and harm other innocent people. Get a home alarm system, learn martial arts or basic self defence moves. Living in a state of constant paranoia just creates situations where human error comes more into play and rational judgment goes out the window.

Carrying loaded guns at all times, having an arsenal of weapons (or "tools" as you call them) in your house, fearing that at any moment a group of armed thugs is going to kill or rob you, suspicious of the government, on standby in case a militia uprising is imminent, and convinced that any country that disagrees with your policies "hates your freedom" and wants to take it away.... I dunno... just sounds a bit whacky, no? But at least you'll be well prepared for the highly anticipated Zombie Uprising when that one goes down. Then I'll be pissed off that all I have is pepper spray. happy8


Guest
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:40:39 PM

Rank: Lurker

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 693,797
Quote:
Carrying loaded guns at all times, having an arsenal of weapons (or "tools" as you call them) in your house, fearing that at any moment a group of armed thugs is going to kill or rob you


Although this has gone off topic lately. Don't want to cherry pick at your post but, I am one of those "whacky" people. I guess until you've had someone forcefully break into your house and point a loaded sawed off shotgun in your face, you can't understand why someone would want to have a gun handy.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:43:15 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 8/10/2009
Posts: 2,226
Location: United States
Dancing_Doll wrote:
A seatbelt, medical insurance and a fire extinguisher are precautions, and nowhere near along the same lines as carrying a gun on you 24/7. The things you mentioned have no potential to create further accidents and harm other innocent people. Get a home alarm system, learn martial arts or basic self defence moves. Living in a state of constant paranoia just creations situations where human error comes more into play and rational judgment goes out the window.

Carrying loaded guns at all times, having an arsenal of weapons (or "tools" as you call them) in your house, fearing that at any moment a group of armed thugs is going to kill or rob you, suspicious of the government, on standby in case a militia uprising is imminent, and convinced that any country that disagrees with your policies "hates your freedom" and wants to take it away.... I dunno... just sounds a bit whacky, no? But at least you'll be well prepared for the highly anticipated Zombie Uprising when that one goes down. Then I'll be pissed off that all I have is pepper spray. happy8


To quote your own posts, Doll, maybe you should go reread what I've said, because I think you don't have a clear understanding. laughing6

I am trained in martial arts. I do have a home alarm system. All just additional tools in the box. I don't have the fear that "at any moment a group of armed thugs is going to kill or rob" me - but I see no harm in being prepared for the possibility. I'm not afraid of my house burning down, either, but I have fire extinguishers placed in a couple strategic spots. Does that make me paranoid of a fire? Or just properly prepared for the possibility? I think everybody should be suspicious of their governments. I think a little suspicion is a healthy thing.

And I challenge you to find any thread where I've posted that "hates your freedom" thing - to be honest, you're just making that up.

To get the thread back on track, I still want someone to explain to me how a stone-cold sober person, legally carrying a concealed weapon, is any more threatening in a bar, than in a park, or a grocery store, or a gas station... Let's get away from the "Guns R Bad, Mmmmmmkay?" arguments for a moment. You would prefer that nobody ever have any access to guns, period. I get that. But guns are out there, and there are good, honest, decent people with permission to carry them. What difference does the locale make? Why is carry in a bar especially bad? So bad that it MUST be outlawed, when guns carried in many other venues is all right? Keeping in mind the fact that the vast majority of gun owners WILL obey the law, will NOT drink alcohol while in possession of a firearm, and will behave safely and sanely?
SIL50
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:17:17 PM

Rank: Forum Guru

Joined: 9/3/2009
Posts: 62
Location: Alabama
one thing I've noticed here, many of you talk about Martial Arts, please understand most versions taught these days are taught as "sport". Even the instructors will tell you if the are honest most of the techniques only work against other martial arts. If you must study plesae for your own good look at the more traditional arts, or at least BJJ. Like I said I do own a firearm,and also study martial arts, MMA to be exact. As with everything which ever you chose be it self defense training or a firearm PLEASE get the best training you can afford and take time to practice and perfect your skills.
Dancing_Doll
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:27:26 PM

Rank: Alpha Blonde
Moderator

Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 6,771
Location: Your dirty fantasy
MrNudiePants wrote:



To quote your own posts, Doll, maybe you should go reread what I've said, because I think you don't have a clear understanding. laughing6

I am trained in martial arts. I do have a home alarm system. All just additional tools in the box. I don't have the fear that "at any moment a group of armed thugs is going to kill or rob" me - but I see no harm in being prepared for the possibility. I'm not afraid of my house burning down, either, but I have fire extinguishers placed in a couple strategic spots. Does that make me paranoid of a fire? Or just properly prepared for the possibility? I think everybody should be suspicious of their governments. I think a little suspicion is a healthy thing.


You call it prepared. I call it paranoid. Just a difference of opinion there.

MrNudiePants wrote:

And I challenge you to find any thread where I've posted that "hates your freedom" thing - to be honest, you're just making that up.


I wasn't talking about you specifically, I was speaking in general in that whole paragraph. Not everything is about you. icon_smile

MrNudiePants wrote:

To get the thread back on track, I still want someone to explain to me how a stone-cold sober person, legally carrying a concealed weapon, is any more threatening in a bar, than in a park, or a grocery store, or a gas station... Let's get away from the "Guns R Bad, Mmmmmmkay?" arguments for a moment. You would prefer that nobody ever have any access to guns, period. I get that. But guns are out there, and there are good, honest, decent people with permission to carry them. What difference does the locale make? Why is carry in a bar especially bad? So bad that it MUST be outlawed, when guns carried in many other venues is all right? Keeping in mind the fact that the vast majority of gun owners WILL obey the law, will NOT drink alcohol while in possession of a firearm, and will behave safely and sanely?


Alcohol reduces inhibitions. Reduced inhibitions can lead to fights. Close proximity of patrons make fights more dangerous in general to a greater number of people. A gun contains bullets. A gun involved in such a fight may cause bullets to enter a human being, thereby causing injury or death.

And I get that you're "Pro-Gun Mmmmmkay?" But even pro-gun advocates can have a measured and logical opinion on guns in bars. I may carry pepper spray in my purse. But i'm not allowed to carry pepper spray into a nightclub. When you have people at max-capacity in a venue, any fight can affect people within a close proximity. If Billy-Bob chooses to sucker-punch you in a bar because you looked at his girl, and you draw your weapon, and then he draws his, and both of you start firing, then I don't want to be the recipient of any stray bullets just because I couldn't get away from the commotion fast enough because the dance floor was packed. Nobody needs a weapon in a nightclub. That's what the bouncer is for (to break up physical fights). He's not there to disarm people when they lose control in the heat of the moment.

Let me ask... if you were in a nightclub... what circumstance would require you to draw a gun? I'm drawing a blank here (no pun intended), because nightclubs have extremely tight security as it is. I have never heard of an armed hold-up by a criminal faction while a nightclub was in full swing.

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