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MrNudiePants
Posted: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:57:11 PM

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eviotis wrote:
Amen brother, however, it seems arms are more easy to procure.


I wouldn't even begin to know where to buy a stolen gun. I can point to hundreds of places where I can steal a tractor-trailer.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:06:50 PM

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Recipe for disaster, that is completely nuts!!! Drunk people with guns... Now don't think I'm not a proud gun owner. But guns in bars and clubs is going to far. Stuff like that is only going to make the debate louder stronger and more intense to out law gun ownership. Then we will really have a problem. Why can't they just leave them in there car? I do believe the bar owners and club owners should be aloud to have a fire arm to protect them selves.
Guest
Posted: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:39:50 PM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
eviotis wrote:
Amen brother, however, it seems arms are more easy to procure.


I wouldn't even begin to know where to buy a stolen gun. I can point to hundreds of places where I can steal a tractor-trailer.



That is one of the main issues. You can buy a gun, and not have to steal it. With those that have a serious intent on using the weapon for things other than defense or hunting (still don't get why an assault weapon or automatic weapon is needed), these armaments are readily available to be acquired.

"Officials have said that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., was shot in the head over the weekend by an assailant armed with a semi-automatic pistol and a 33-round clip."

Now, for those that may say that gun ownership and any withdrawal of such rights disallows a "responsible" gun owner to be armed while visiting his or her neighborhood watering hole, I say ridiculous. One does not need a semi-automatic weapon with a 33-round clip to ensure ones safety. If it does then take your ass to the gun range and learn how to shot. My father was a marksmen and so was grandpappy, and I was taught well. However, I hate guns and won't even allow my daughter to pretend play with such uselessness. On the flip side, I have, through my benefactors, learned to respect the power of such weaponry which is not a prerequisite for a good number of people buying them.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:55:45 PM

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Because there are psychos in the world, you're plan is to make all the non-psycho people defenseless? Is that right? Because you haven't exactly stated what you want. Do you want to get rid of all the guns? It seems so, since you hate them. How about this: Let's get rid of all the guns. Better get rid of the knives, too. Oh, and better get rid of the cars, since cars make incredibly deadly weapons, and more people are killed in car accidents that by guns. Better get rid of all the baseball bats, and cricket bats... broomsticks... hell, sticks in general. better outlaw the construction of any building higher than one story, because you don't want to have all those high windows people can get pushed out of. Would that work for you?
sprite
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:47:17 PM

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Just a statement of fact, as i understand it. Mr. Loughner didn't steal a gun. he purchased a semi-automatic legally. apparently crazy people are allowed to buy guns. Now do you see where i am coming from? yes, knives kill people, as do baseball bats, but when was the last time someone took a baseball bat and killed 6 people and wounded a handful of others? how about if we limit our killing tools to items that carry one bullet? would that make people feeling itchy about arming themselves feel safe? one bullet would have meant that a 9 year old girl wouldn't have died. is that too much to ask? why do we need to use lethal force? this whole fucking world is going mad, that's why. everyone gets angry about everything and they have the means, now, to exhibit their anger at any target they feel like - this should never have happened - we don't even need to worry about another 9-11 when we can terrorize each other to our heart's content. yes, this guy was a crazy guy - i don't believe anyone truly wanted him to shoot a congresswoman, but really, there are a LOT of crazy guys out here - can we at least agree that they shouldn't have guns? or angry guys? or macho guys? or suicidal guys? or... well, you can see where i am going with this...



Love not hate.
SIL50
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:01:51 PM

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This weekend's shooting/ massacre was deplorable we can all agree on that. Still don't misjudge those of us who are responsible firearms owners. For the record the 33 rd magizine is supposed to be for the full auto Glock 18(avaliable only to LE and military) . How he came to possess one of those mags is beyond me, I shot for years and never seen one of those. I think people missed alot of warning signs with him. Ihave often wished the screening process was stricter, I mean there used to be an extended waiting period for handgun purchases, unless there was a documented threat to the buyers safety. Maybe it should be brought back,not that it would help this weekend's victims, but it might help to prevent others.
Rontre
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:13:55 PM

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The topic of this thread seems to be changing by the individual (almost) post because I thought it was about "Guns in bars and nightclubs". Indeed there are some people that have a "permit to carry" will not pull their weapon out at the slightest provocation so I wonder just how much provocation gets to be too much? Personally, I do not think that alcohol & firearms are a good mix whether it be in a bar, McDonalds, library or out in the woods hunting deer, rabbits, squirrels or whatever else a persons choice of game should be. Don't get me wrong I believe in an individuals right to bear arms......for the protection of ones property & most of all for their family... My apologies if I missed this in a previous post... "Guns don't kill people.. people kill people"
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:11:29 PM

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Exactly Rontre, should a person be able to carry a high powered gun into a bar? And, on a basic question, why does one need a semi-automatic weapon with a 33-round clip for, especially in a bar? (Question #1)

Now for MNP, NO, that would not work for me. Do I want to get rid of all guns? Why not. You wanna protect yourself and your family, then, if others do not have guns then why would you (or others) need a gun for "protection?" Learn some form of self defense, have a plan in case there is an intruder. This postulation is based on the premise that neither you nor your theoretical assailant would have guns. Oh yeah, and the Senate is brewing once again on what to do since we do:

"Now I'm not saying that these sensible gun laws would have stopped this killer, but I do know this: It should not be easy for a killer to obtain a weapon that could kill or wound 20 people in just a few heartbeats, and stop those heartbeats,'' Boxer said.

Wow, should we actually make it harder on people to buy a weapon that can eradicate numerous lives within moments. No, lets not do that since it fringes on our right to bear arms.

Further, gun laws are almost moot:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

Do you honestly believe that a gun seller is going through all these requirements in order to make a sale?

BTW, question #2 to you, smart guy.


As for the ridiculous premise of banning sticks, bats, conveyances, and so forth, well:

1. Conveyances of any mass size would require a special license. So if you want to get something in a semi auto, or anything higher than a revolver, would it be too much to ask for special permits, along with some training, back ground checks, references? Hence my little ditty on training which seemed to go overlooked. And, I don't recall saying that we should ban, or "get rid of all guns", if I did, quote that, except from this post.

2. As for bats, sticks, pencils, spoons, knives, forks, straws, needles, string, rope, dildo's, bats, spanking paddles, sharpened end of a tooth brush, hope you get the "point." Again, to use such tools in order to kill, one would need some special training to carry out the slaughter of 6 and put one in intensive care. And you would probably be stopped by the second person if you were that skilled. One can even take the thumb, index and middle finger, force the fingers into the neck of an assailant, reach around the trachea, and cut off their air. However, it takes training, practice, and in the end, the knowledge that such force, power, and skill should not be administered at all costs.

Lastly, for the "non-psycho's", a question, and don't give me the empty notion that "I would do everything to protect my family." All of us would. However, question:

Do you have the capacity to take a gun, and shot someone?

The gun range, animals, or anything else does not equal killing another human being. So why not make it harder for "psychos" to get a gun? (Question #3).
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:10:23 PM

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For Sprite: There was enough failure in this case to go around. Let's start with this man's parents, who were warned of his nature when he was kicked out of college and they were told that he wouldn't be allowed back in without being cleared by a psychologist. He had a fuggin' shrine to death in their back yard, and they did nothing to see to it that he got any kind of counseling. They had to have knowledge that he had armed himself, yet they still did nothing. I still say, sad as it is, if guns had never been invented, this guy would have found some other way to carry out his insanity, up to and including ramming a van loaded with home-made explosives into the crowd. Blaming the gun is letting a giant slice of society off the hook.

Let's also look at one of the men who stopped this killer. A concealed weapons permit holder, he was armed when this incident happened. He ran outside to see what was going on, and when he saw that the killer had been disarmed, he left his legally carried gun in it's holster. He joined in with the other man and woman who had wrestled the killer to the ground, and held him for the police. He had a gun, legally carried, but since there was no need to bring it into play, he didn't. Guys like this are typical of people who carry concealed weapons. We'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:24:28 PM

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eviotis wrote:
Further, gun laws are almost moot:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

Do you honestly believe that a gun seller is going through all these requirements in order to make a sale?


Gun laws are almost moot? Yes, I know for a fact that gun sellers (if they're legal dealers) DO go through all those requirements to make a sale. And more, since you've only posted a link to the Florida statutes, and not even mentioned the Federal Code that regulated firearms sales.

Quote:
So if you want to get something in a semi auto, or anything higher than a revolver, would it be too much to ask for special permits, along with some training, back ground checks, references?


They're already doing the background checks. And yes, it would be too much to ask to require the "special permits", and so on. Criminals will always be able to get firearms. These changes you're proposing will only serve to make it harder for law-abiding people to get them for self defense. That's like trying to combat drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to buy a car. And that's asking too much.

Quote:

You wanna protect yourself and your family, then, if others do not have guns then why would you (or others) need a gun for "protection?" Learn some form of self defense, have a plan in case there is an intruder.


I do. And I have. But my plan includes taking advantage of every tool I can lay my hands on that will make my task easier. Some of those tools are firearms. Cell phones, pepper sprays, and camcorders also play their parts. I don't pretend that my martial arts training will serve me for every occasion, and anyone that does is very short-sighted. (Sorry, Sprite, but it's true.) I also make it a habit to stay out of bad neighborhoods, and not associate with bad people. But I have no say in when those bad people will come to my neighborhood, so I have prepared myself and my family the best I can for such an eventuality.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:27:53 PM

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Rontre wrote:
The topic of this thread seems to be changing by the individual (almost) post because I thought it was about "Guns in bars and nightclubs". Indeed there are some people that have a "permit to carry" will not pull their weapon out at the slightest provocation so I wonder just how much provocation gets to be too much? Personally, I do not think that alcohol & firearms are a good mix whether it be in a bar, McDonalds, library or out in the woods hunting deer, rabbits, squirrels or whatever else a persons choice of game should be. Don't get me wrong I believe in an individuals right to bear arms......for the protection of ones property & most of all for their family... My apologies if I missed this in a previous post... "Guns don't kill people.. people kill people"


Hey, my position has ALWAYS been that alcohol and guns don't mix. I just don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to carry in a bar, as long as I don't drink.
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:43:39 PM

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So lets not do anything and sit back and wait for the next mass murder to happen?
SIL50
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:34:00 PM

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Location: Alabama
Happen to have two friends that own or work in gunshops and yes they do follow all the requirements the law requires. Also not commonly known, if you purchase what is considered to be an excessive number of firearms in a given period you are automatically put through a more intensive check by the Feds, .I found out when I moved to a different type competive type of shooting sports.

Would love to know what type of martial arts posters on this fourm study.
MrNudiePants
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:46:34 PM

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eviotis wrote:
So lets not do anything and sit back and wait for the next mass murder to happen?


Disarming the populace will only guarantee that the body count will be that much worse. I saw a show earlier about the psycho that shot up Va Tech. All I could think about was, "If only one in a hundred people on campus was legally armed, this piece of shit's rampage would have been ended in the first couple minutes..."
DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:01:07 PM

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MrNudiePants wrote:
Because there are psychos in the world, you're plan is to make all the non-psycho people defenseless? Is that right? Because you haven't exactly stated what you want. Do you want to get rid of all the guns? It seems so, since you hate them. How about this: Let's get rid of all the guns. Better get rid of the knives, too. Oh, and better get rid of the cars, since cars make incredibly deadly weapons, and more people are killed in car accidents that by guns. Better get rid of all the baseball bats, and cricket bats... broomsticks... hell, sticks in general. better outlaw the construction of any building higher than one story, because you don't want to have all those high windows people can get pushed out of. Would that work for you?


Seriously? Still?


Do we really need to bring back freefallin's arguments about spoons???

This topic keeps getting rehashed over and over, and the proponents still come back with the same old shit.

If you think that broomsticks and pocket knives are the same as guns, then why don't you protect yourself with broomsticks and knives?

"Hey! I can strangle someone with my bare hands, so you better cut off everyone's hands as well!"

Time to get a fucking clue...or at least a decent argument.

Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:04:49 PM

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So bars, universities, and the rest of the community would be safer if everyone is legally armed? Seems the US and the former USSR tried that theory already...it didn't work.
Remington
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:14:13 PM

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Okay, eviotis, I sell guns for a living and I make sure all the paperwork is in order and make sure they have been cleared by the FBI NICS system before transferring the gun over to them. Apparently when they did the background check on this guy they didn't see he was mentally defective, yet how can you if you don't do a psych evaluation at the time of a gun purchase?

The shooting could've been minimized if more people in the crowd had been carrying. The two in the crowd that shot at him had missed, but say someone standing next to him had been armed, the shooter wouldn't have been nearly as successful as he was.

Like Nudie said, I'd rather carry and pray that I never have to use it, rather than need it and not have it.

Go check out my new story - How Did This Happen? - John's Story

DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:19:41 PM

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Quote:
The shooting could've been minimized if more people in the crowd had been carrying.


d'oh!
Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:21:27 PM

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I was thinking the same thing Damon.
Remington
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:25:39 PM

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Yes, I believe so. Either he was oblivious to the fact that someone other than himself was packing a gun, or he simply didn't care. Anyone in their right mind wouldn't risk their plan being compromised unless they had every intentions of going down as well. If someone close to him had been carrying, I guarantee the situation wouldn't have been no where near as bad as it was.

Go check out my new story - How Did This Happen? - John's Story

Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:35:30 PM

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So there would be no worry if everyone was carrying a weapon. There wouldn't be any scenario where a group of people were all legally carrying weapons, might lead to a problem?
Remington
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:41:54 PM

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The problem would be less likely to happen.

An armed society is a polite society.

Go check out my new story - How Did This Happen? - John's Story

Guest
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:45:05 PM

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DamonX
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:48:40 PM

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Because a guy engaging in a public shooting was hoping to "get away with it." I'm sure if he knew that Billy Bob was packing, he would have opted for strongly worded letter instead.
Remington
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:55:20 PM

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Something along those lines. I'm just a gun toting hilly billy, what do I know?

Go check out my new story - How Did This Happen? - John's Story

sprite
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 10:57:41 PM

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Remington wrote:
Yes, I believe so. Either he was oblivious to the fact that someone other than himself was packing a gun, or he simply didn't care. Anyone in their right mind wouldn't risk their plan being compromised unless they had every intentions of going down as well. If someone close to him had been carrying, I guarantee the situation wouldn't have been no where near as bad as it was.


i think we've already established that he wasn't! seriously, this is for all the people who think carrying around guns is the answer to everything... curious. have you ever been shot? have you ever been shot at? have you ever shot someone? killed someone? are you willing to live with the consequences if you do? what if you shot the wrong someone? what if the guy your shooting at, shoots back at you and hits your wife/husband/friend? are you prepared to live with that? and i'm taking this back into the bar - what will you think if my SO comes on next week and tells everyone that i will not be back on Lush because i was gunned down at work while serving a round of beers to table #4? oh, too bad - but at least they got the bad guy?

god, what does it take to make people act sanely? apparently arguments won't do it, logic is useless, appeal to emotions is pointless - just keep your guns out of my workplace and my neighborhood.



Love not hate.
Magical_felix
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:02:49 PM

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Do we all agree that probably there are more people carrying weapons in the worst ghetto's of major cities than anywhere else in the city? Do we also agree that most of the gun violence occurs in these ghettos?

Does preventing a very rare random killing spree justify everyone carrying weapons? Probably not...

Remington
Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:07:23 PM

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Sprite, to go back the original topic, guns aren't allowed in bars and clubs in the first place. I don't believe guns and alcohol should be mixed. Your judgment is alter and you could possibly do something you normally wouldn't do.

If you're carrying a gun in the first place, then obviously you're acquainted with it and know how to use it if the possibility ever arises. People who carry go out and target practice to keep up on their skills and I'm sure said person wouldn't take the shot if it put some innocent life in jeopardy.

I do carry when I can and I hope that I never have to use it. But if I do then I have the confidence in my ability to handle the situation.

Like I've repeatedly said over and over again. I'd rather have it and not need it than not have it and wish I did.

Go check out my new story - How Did This Happen? - John's Story

Guest
Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:14:16 AM

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http://www.slate.com/id/2280794/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/us/11guns.html?_r=1

So, everybody, go get your guns. I'm gunna go fetch the horses.

There are checks, but they did not work in this case, there are or at least there were laws against the clips being used, but they lapsed in 2004. Now there will be a shit storm of legislation, that will run out again. Oh yeah, and the gun the asshole was using is up in sales in Arizona. Truly insane.

MrNudiePants
Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:10:57 PM

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DamonX wrote:

Seriously? Still?


Do we really need to bring back freefallin's arguments about spoons???

This topic keeps getting rehashed over and over, and the proponents still come back with the same old shit.

If you think that broomsticks and pocket knives are the same as guns, then why don't you protect yourself with broomsticks and knives?

"Hey! I can strangle someone with my bare hands, so you better cut off everyone's hands as well!"

Time to get a fucking clue...or at least a decent argument.



Really? Back to the tactic of ignoring the argument just to act ass-clownish and swear a lot? What's YOUR end of the argument, Damon? Explain to me how a sober, law-abiding citizen, lawfully carrying a concealed weapon is any more dangerous because he happens to be in one particular retail establishment instead of another.
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